I've been teaching technology to adults for almost 15 years and Michael is spot on. When it comes to actually thinking about the subject (which is required to diagnose problems) most choose to avoid the effort and rely on someone else to do the thinking for them. They may be skilled at disassembly and reassembly, but if they are asked to find and solve a problem...blank stares and hesitation. I believe this is a habit they develop early in life and is one that few can muster the effort to change. This culture supports non-thinking and conformity; very few young people encounter unique people or situations that shake them out of their complacency. They go through life never reaching their full potential as a thinking animal.

I agree with Michael the older I get, it's uncomfortable but it is the truth.

Damn that was a nasty burn on half the population. I love the duality of this conversation, but the reality is you won’t ever know how people truly feel or think. These are hard assumptions.

Lex, you're the best example of someone who chooses the good regardless of the punishment and that's what real strength is.

I'm 29. In my early 20s I believed exactly what lex is saying. Now, that belief is shaky. The more days go by, the more I feel Michael is right. I hate to change my belief on this. But I think I will be completely team Michael in my 30s. I would however, like to hold on to the fact that "they are not interested" is more dominant than "incapable".

This conversation represents the duality of my inner monologue.

There’s flaws and values in both attitudes. Lex’s attitude is what may get him hurt or disappointed by other people, due to his expectations, but it also makes him more humble and open-minded. Michael’s attitude is simplistic and a bit arrogant, but it can make you more immune when you are seeing the dumbest, most toxic behavior in people.

I used to think that way about other people, but now I am old and I know better. Some people just cannot think.

Not sure if anyone brought this up yet but I think that there should be a distinction between what is likely to be true and how we treat people. I believe it is likely that many people don't think deeply (either out of choice, or incapacity) but I also believe that in the interest of upholding human dignity, we should always expect the capacity of deep thought to be present.

I've been deeply wrestling with this topic for almost three years now. It's been extremely difficult to acknowledge that there's a large swath of the population that is in a sort of dissociative state, lacking personal thought. I've imagined it to be how they're raised, but it's honestly still an enigma to me. Coming to this conclusion is not a result of cynicism, it's based on objective reality for my life. But I never assume someone is this way or that, until they make it evident.

Jordan made me change my view on this. Abstract thinking is hard for many people. its almost a dirty secret amongst people who can and like to

I sit in between them on this one. I think that the potential for any given individual to develop deep thinking is not specified- we should treat everyone as though that potential exists- and we can never know if it doesn't. However, other people's choice about how they live their lives is not my responsibility- and I get to choose who I want to be around.

kind smart people assume the rest of the world is the same tho reality says otherwise

I’m on Michael’s side here. As an intellectual introvert, I always assumed the same as Lex. Everyone can think deeply, they just need someone to show them how or hold their hand. As I’ve engaged more people over the years, I’ve found a majority to be incapable. It’s not that they simply resist it, as Michael says, they just don’t have the option.

Are most people capable of thinking deeply? Well, * makes broad sweeping gesture with hand * look around

I understand both view points, yet I agree with Lex. I've helped people in advance math classes or lesser than my own. You get a confused look but that is where learning begins. The look they get once they understand something. They needed a different perspective the teacher didn't show. I showed them how I got from their example to my simplified short cut answer. I may be right but in a different way. Don't look down on people because they choose a different path than you chose.

Thank you lex for giving us your podcast

15 yrs ago I would of assumed Lex's side. Its been a long learning curve for me, but I completely agree with Michael. I am consistently surprised on this subject.

Wonderful clip. Thank you for the Closed Captions for the hearing impaired.

What does one define as thinking deeply ? I can reflect on my own inner workings and ideologies of what I think and perceive as the universe. I wouldn’t say I’m well educated but I feel as if my trials and tribulations have put me in a certain area that many people have yet to get to. The mind is a powerful and amazing thing that we have yet to conquer. I have had a few powerful experiences with psychedelics that have really opened up my thoughts and how I effectively think deeply.

I understand both points of view but I agree with Lex, just because someone is in a certain mindset of let's say shallowness or unwillingness to learn, that doesn't mean they're incapable of change, people grow and change all the time and as humans we evolved to understand and accept the uncertain.

Everyone is at some varying degree of awareness at any given time on any given subject which can change at any given moment. Even very bright people are only so bright about so much at any one time, even the things they are most brightest about. There are so many variables at play we should be very careful about making any judgments or risk appearing to be the fool ourselves.

I had to teach myself to think. It wasn't until quite late in my life that I realised how much of what I did and thought was mechanical and reactive and passive. Then I began to see the choices I had. I think many more people could be led to become more intentional and reflective in their lives than is commonly appreciated.

But malice is doing exactly what he’s arguing against. Maybe he’s making the point that life is too short not to expedite judgement and we all do it. Brilliant.

Most people are capable, but they don't do it. There could be many reasons. Intellectual laziness, fear, denial(for example because of pride/arrogance or fear again), etc... I'm someone who really puts a lot of effort in thinking about stuff that I actually think about. So, I'm a really deep thinker always searching for the deeper meaning of things. And it absolutely disturbs me to see a person with an actual brain, but yet not use it "and not care". You don't have to be smart. I'm not smart either. Just use "whatever" you have in you're head.

Michael Malice living up to his name lol

I think people having the capability is different than ability. I'd agree with Malice of he were referring to a persons current "ability" to do something. When exposed to the right embodiment, people are capable of amazing things ( to varying degrees and with limits of course).

I think it all comes down to the definition of "Intelligence" and how/if we can grasp its scope and variety.

Probably the most important episode of a podcast in the world.

The art of conversation : this podcast is very well done and i think it will be as good as the Joe rogan experience but in its own way.

After watching this, I just fired my accountant.

Very good points from both sides if you ask me.

Firmly with Lex on this.

We are all preconditioned it's those that question this and actually see they are in the first place, this leads to empathy

the value you observe or use

I mean (not in the mean way), he has Malice in his name, how can you expect him having a big and open heart, like our boy Lex here. Being pittyful is easy, being forgiving, acepting others' flaws takes much strength, remembering their "knifes in your back" and still putting faith in someone like you put in yourself, that takes huge balls and heart.

I love Michael Malice.

In this conversation I see one person thinking deeply and the other is mindlessly reinforcing their own weak argument.

3:25 is the best one. Similar to Christiano Ronaldo, when asked about who is the best player in the world?

Lex, I believe, was trying to get out the fact that there is always a possibility of the miracle called “change” that can happen in any humans life. The reality of Michael’s view, though, can be helpful in understanding humans and interacting with them as well.

I agree with Michael wholeheartedly. I grew up in the "hood" and my life experience has been exactly what MM is saying. Most people don't want to do the work required for deep thought even it would benefit them.

I sympathize with both points of view

I love both of them on how they spoke about this. Agree to disagree is fine. I love both side

Just a very very interesting conversation 🤔

I

Lex has spent a little too much time in academia to understand Malice's perspective. You only realize how little thinking the average person does when you have to work with them. It's hard to deny once you've experienced it.

I'm with Lex on this one

I missed you, come back to tx

Im curious how one could know whether or not they're capable of thinking deeply. Also, if you are deemed as incapable of thinking deeply how can you become then capable? Is there a process?

I can see the point he is trying to make, but I could not disagree more. I, in many instances, have been the person dumbfounded when someone would hand me $11 on a $6 bill. Hell, somedays, I am still that person. But when I was that person every day, I was living in a horribly stressful environment. My goal was to be checked out as much as possible. I passively escaped the loop of poverty seemingly on accident. After I moved out of an emotionally abusive house, graduated with an associate degree, my world opened up. I had time to pursue bettering myself because I wasn't living in total fear or working two full-time jobs to survive in school while out on my own. I am by no means a perfect human, and I say this to prove a point, not to brag. My accomplishments are small and the situation I grew up in was mild compared to what some others face. But the momentum each accomplishment brings pulls me furth from the lifestyle of passivity. Not to say he isn't smart, but for him to say "compassion requires a baseline of intelligence" and not understand what I just explained was a little disappointing to hear.

5:34 - As a white South African, this resonates so much.

From what I gather Michael is just saying he doesn’t waste his time on people who aren’t prepared to entertain different ideas from their own ,while lex is saying if you chip away at them they will start to take things in

It hurts to think about this but it’s true I see it everyday

Most people are incapable of true empathy. They are very capable of thinking they are empathetic and believing they understand different views. However, I believe those that truly understand empathy, are haunted by it, and they learn they must be ruthlessly selective of who and what they apply it towards. Malice. I'm with ya bud. People seem to be incapable of understanding the point you are making. Fucked up how people treat you. In this aspect, we live similar lives.

There is some truth to Michaels argument but I disagree on some points. He mentioned how some cashiers can't do math in their heads and uses that to discredit their intelligence. I can tell you this, I know some people who struggle with basic math but they are also some of the best mechanics or artists I know. There are many different varieties/degrees of intelligence. To write someone off because they can't have an intellectual discussion on a subject is arrogant if you ask me.

I’ve thought deeply about this once

People who can think deeply enough to understand written-down deep thinking know what deep thinking looks like and know that most people can’t think deeply.

(legal ability; capacity to) gaining respect, (private action; capable to) trust building -- Selling yourself as salesperson when Value (assertiveness, in response of objections) over Price (defensive, in response of objections).

Michael is right. I’ve used the same analogy: You can understand your dog but you can not expect your dog to understand you.

most people are capable of thinking deeply, or at least intensively, about some sphere of activities or subject.

strong opening

I was stumped by the $11 thing when I first started cashier but now it's nothing to do. So what am I a genius. Terrible way to think in my opinion.

Self awareness is a luxury too. If you have the time and resources tos think about what buddhist monks thought 1000 years ago and how you can apply it to improve your daily life, then great, but many people are living paycheck to paycheck and worried about the basics. Priorities could be changed true but the will to make a change in your behavior is like asking for miracle for some.

Lex is like Goku, always chooses to see the good in people despite their great flaws but like Goku it'll bite him in the ass because he's bordering on the naive. His heart is in the right place though!

This is a nice little debate.

I’ve always thought the same as malice. Still do.

Half the world lives on the wrong side of The Bell Curve. Most of the other half are insane. It's the only hypothesis that explains all of the data. ;)

That ending though 😶

To sum up Michael's point "ain't nobody got time for that."

We are not equal if thats what he is getting at. But we as a people are mostly capable of real thought, compassion and understanding. This dude is a real doosch

I used to think like Lex is a few years ago, now i agree with Malice

Mic drop at the end there for sure

Lex, interview a psychiatrist which will blow your mind and ours, I am sure. Philosophical inclinations springs from personality, and this is the Who we are and part of What we are which are the riddles to get closer to our reality and a more authentic and sane life for humans. I salute you!

50 percent of people will always be below average intelligence, but I think the point Lex was trying to make was that our society in the future could be one where we squeeze the bell curve together so the range or difference in intelligence is no longer problematic, and that its something worth moving towards. Not going to happen in one generation but there's reason to believe humanity is capable of that.

Malice is freaking smart. I think he had had lot more interactions with all sorts of people compared to Lex. IMO most of his arguments are debatable but I completely agree with his last point.

I agree more with LEX....The very fact that majority of people are capable of thinking deeply, it's just that they are not interested in it. ....It takes a certain level of effort to do it and they are not ready to do it.

At the node of speciation.

That last line made me laugh not gonna lie

Personally I have started doing thought experiments. I love it. I've had better and more complete ideas.

damn he finished that line of argument well

I tend to think most people can think deeply especially if they start asking questions at a younger age. Now I understand the temptation to write those that don’t off. Like when im working customer service there is this temptation to just look at the person that’s screaming at me because prices went up and think “that person has no capacity for rational thought and their opinion is worth no more to me than the cow that was made into the burger im selling” but there are a few points to that. First i do care about the cow more than the customer generally and am trying to get away from mammal products. Second, perhaps that person has just never had to engage rationally and is just ruled by this primal part of their mind and through compassion and reason i can help liberate and uplift the rational human being stuck under there helping us both. Third, there is a practical part. Sure, if that customer goes off and attacks me and i do something like shoot them I’ll probably be fine because it’s in the self defense laws of my state. But, if there is a whole society of them then it doesn’t matter how right or wrong i am they will win. Even if just 10% of people where to be worth listening to you should still try to convince the 90% because they do have power and without them you’ll never achieve goals of improving human life.

Lex, you are not stupid, but so naïve! I used to be like you in my teens, then I served 2 years in the Communist Czechoslovak army as a conscript - and I got cured. Great percentage of people are indeed very primitive creatures. Plus remember Fredrich the Great: "The more I look at people, the more I want to be with my dogs." He had Italian greyhounds - irresistible soft eyes :).

The answer is a resounding "no". And most people don't even want to.

As someone who works in IT, people do not want to think.

Dale Carnegie said that, in general, people evaluate others according to 4 criteria: 1) Their appearances, the way they present themselves; 2) What they say; 3) The way they say it; 4) Facts, what they do. So, 3 out of 4 criteria are only about appearances, not about deep thinking. Sometimes people can be what they seem to be, sometimes they can be so charming and give you a lot of bullshit in a beautiful way. I made the mistake of looking for the good in everyone, but it's better to be realistic.

When cows can vote; they do a lot of damage.

Cold truth ... not everyone wants to be or is meant to be useful

Both attitudes are a story you tell yourself about human behaviour. Whatever story you believe, your brain will find ways to get you to notice evidence in support of it and find ways to make you tune out the counterexamples. The alternative to both is to just be agnostic about it and not worry about it. I’m not saying Michael’s philosophy is dangerous or anything, I understand he isn’t some power-obsessive. I’m just saying an agnostic attitude might be easier on one’s mental health, since their brain isn’t constantly making them notice apparent stupidity in daily life.

Michael's point doesn't explain why so many supposedly high IQ individuals have the same difficulty in confronting hard ideas that contradict their lived experience. And a person confronted with a math problem, even though simple, might have an emotional reaction to it, it doesn't mean they can't do the math, just that their brain has equated math with something to be avoided, if Michael was confronted with a situation where he had to drive and not knowing how to drive he probably would have the same moment of panic that the hypothetical cashier would.

I have an irrational fear of making change for people on the spot because I can't think straight in the presence of another human being. Independently I operate very well, but introduce a human element, and I'm driving with the parking break on. He would dismiss me very quickly and unfairly with that mentallity.

My dog is incredible at catching a frisbee, but couldn’t calculate the right place with calculus. Most ball players are the same, they can do it but can’t think it.

Being stupid is a matter of perspective, while they may appear stupid politically, or even well read, they may be a genius when spot welding and firing a 105 MM howitzer under extremely stressful combat situations. It all goes back to that nature vs nurture argument with basic psychology. Being an open or empathetic person has many drawbacks in social circles when all they care about is social media, or keeping up with the Jones rather than being innovative or creative for example. This all being said, there are rare artillery officers in the military now in nearly every nationality that are extremely well read, not socially awkward and also innovative niche small business owners. The real question that should be asked about deep thought is, why aren't we rewarding it socio-economically?

My thought on the matter is that everyone has the capacity for deep thinking neurologically, and I see others as having innate value and worth as living human beings with thoughts, emotions, hopes, and fears, so therefore I realize they deserve respect so therefore I do so. As for 90% of people, though, I see that in terms of the value that they put out in thinking deeply and carefully and using emotional intellegence and respect for others, I have very low expectations for most people, as almost every person I've encountered has proven to be thoughtless, apathetic, insensitive, and with much lower intellegence levels. It brings me much indignation when others don't think, and I can clearly see their choices make no logical sense, which is amazing. Jesus was amazed at people's stupidity, so I'm in good company. I liked the analogy Lex used about bulls, because most people definitely are like that. As Jesus said "Cast not your pearls to swine, and give not that which is holy unto the dogs (or bulls), lest they turn and trample you underfoot." Thanks so much for this video! These are very good for me. I appreciate you guy's thoughts!

Instinctive, please. (Fowler)

Lex your learn with age most people avoid thinking, your giving society way more credit than they deserve. Half of Americans can only name three out of all the presidents that's ever been. Less than half know how many states there are, and about 20 percent can point out India on a map.

interestingly enough, both of them are correct. the majority of humans are capable of thinking deeply, but a large portion of said majority are simply uninterested in engaging in taking advantage of their capabilities.

Capable? Yes. Will they do it? No. While the hardware capacity is there, the lack of primary/essential information in personality makes them incompatible. This is why the good education of children is so crucial. It's really difficult for an adult to change, even If they want it. (or I am totally wrong, who cares)

He doesn't adress the last question, which was "how are you going to keep an anarchy when those people will actively try to be your accountant"? The problem isn't that they're unable to be your accountant, but that they will try to impose it on you.

Michael was giggling inside the whole time.

Everyone is capable of deep think but not everyone is willing to become capable of deep thinking