Thinking back, Fuuka's cooking does seem more played for drama in P3 as part of her insecurities, it's only spinoffs that turn it into a joke alongside the P4 girls. As I recall it's rarely brought up outside her first Social Link rank back in P3 and she shows realistic, gradual improvement instead of it getting worse and turning into Eldritch Abominations the further in you go...

Belated response but... Fuuka, Yukiko, and Makoto boring?! *withholds urge to laugh* Fuuka and Makoto's family situation is VERY relatable to me as Makoto finds it VERY hard to measure up to Sae and Fuuka? Boy, can this girl get a happy ending? (probably why I kind of ship her and Natsuki) And from what I've seen of her parents (or rather alluded to) there doesn't appear to be any real connection or bond between her and her parents, something I REALLY know something about personally as it's HARD to try to talk to people whose own desires and wants are more important than then their kid's. And Yukiko? At the very beginning of P4, she gives off the image of someone unapproachable when in reality? She's a goofball with a knowledge of horror-based stuff (Yukiko being the P4 girl who doesn't get freaked out by ghost stories or similar things especially compared to say Chie or Naoto) and missing a fair bit of social cues.

This Yamato Nadeshiko thing reminds me of the Philippines' own Maria Clara ideal. Its pretty much the same with added Catholic values.

@@kevanickPREACH BROTHER!!!! THE PRIESTESS GIRLS ARE THE BEST!!!!

Also, the inn having real history and being one of the only historic attractions in the town really complicates things - especially as we see Junes screwing up the town's economy. Yukiko abandoning the inn would be incredibly selfish and, while not certain, could easily doom it and destroy one of the few unique things Inaba still has going for it.

While I wouldn't necessarily call it irresponsible per se, Yukiko's SL just seemed like a very knee-jerk reaction to a very abnormally stressful time for the inn. I can't imagine the Amagi Inn would have repeated deaths happening there in the future lol... it just seemed like it was the fallout to those events itself/people's perception of it, that aggravated Yukiko's dissatisfaction vs. any actual discontent with her role there. Teens are biologically more emotional when it comes to stressors though (their prefrontal cortex/logical part of brain not being fully developed yet), so it was an understandably brash reaction to me. But upon taking some time to "cool-off" and address the stressors, she realizes she still actually loves the place. Having had some experience in mental health counseling, I think people would be surprised at how conflicted one's emotions can get, and how many are actually just a symptom rather than the actual root problem.

Yukiko is still a teenager, and teenagers don't know what they want out of life yet. Hell, most adults don't know what they want out of life yet!

@@jeezycreezy4220 Yeah.

Yukiko was my favorite but what was her dream again? Lol I always thought she just wanted out of the inn because she felt forced to do it. But then she chose to do the inn anyways. It was never about not wanting to work at the inn. I thought it was that she wanted to feel like she could make her own choice. So when she ran the inn of her own choice rather than feeling like she had to that was her getting what she wanted out of life. Maybe I'm remembering the game wrong but I thought this is how it went down

Exactly. There are two key moments that hint that she's not entirely sure. First is when she hopes the inn will close so that she won't feel bad about leaving. Second is when she says she won't be able to return if she leaves, because she'd be too guilty to return.

Yeah, people (especially in the West nowadays) think freedom means completely rejecting anything that is set up for you or that is traditional, even if you want it. I've seen a fair share of people criticising women who *want* to clean the house and take care of children as them conforming to the patriarchy when they're just doing what they want, even if it's not having a job and being a stay at home wife/mother.

Naoto made it very clear she wanted to follow her family's footsteps as a detective. The main difference is that she tried too hard in this goal, and thought she had to be a man to do it. The image she had from fictional detectives were men, and the Japanese police that had to work under her were men, who resented having a young girl leading them. She was resented for not fitting the image of an ideal detective by the police force and herself, while Yukiko resented that she fitted the image the ideal Japanese woman in the eyes of her family.

My problem with Yukiko wasn't her story arc, but how it was framed. The hero's journey requires a certain amount of adversity to make them reaching their goals impactful. It's fun to cheer for them and by rooting for their victory, you end up getting attached. Yukiko faced adversity during her kidnapping arc, but because of the Yamato Nadeshiko character not being allowed to seriously complain or struggle inelegantly, her social link seems devoid of any further difficulty that actually impacts her. So it reads very easily as her backsliding into circumstances others decided for her without Yukiko properly working for it or wanting it. And this comes AFTER her very real internal battles in the TV world got me invested, so I suppose I felt rather betrayed. Additionally, by not allowing the main character to argue or be concerned over her changed opinions, Yukiko never really gets to explain the quiet, impressive resolve that underpins her new decision. Having watched these videos on Yukiko, I can now see what the creators were going for but maaaan did it go over my head when I first played this game.

This is a good point, but I have a correction. She mentions that her parents always knew about her decision to leave and didn't stop her in her extra Social Link event/third-tier Persona awakening in Golden, which is implied to be after she decides to stay before her Rank 9 event.

I could definitely do a quick video on the bro characters! I'll add it to my list! :) And yes, the Priestess girls are the "yamato nadeshiko's," of their respective games. Yukiko especially so thanks to Inaba's rural and more traditional setting. She definitely subverts the trope a lot though, especially for a game that came out in ~2008. I've saved most of that discussion for Yukiko's video in particular. But yeah also from my own lived experience, many of my aunties, even the very highly "assimilated" ones on my dad's side, have very YN demeanors. Especially when we're out in public. My mom was actually quite a "subversion" on the YN expectation herself, which got her in trouble with her dad a lot. I'll talk about it more in the Yukiko video, but before she moved to America with my dad (this was in the 80s), she had founded and owned three of her own clothing businesses, and a lot of men didn't like that -.- Said she was "tarnishing her image." Societal misogyny man... it's a sad thing to see. But yeah "quiet strength" is everything, even still in it's on way in the Japanese American community despite all of them trying to get rid of any JP heritage post WWII (for obvious reasons...). The biggest controversy to come out of the internment camps was a small group of Nisei (2nd generation) adopting a "No shou ga nai" protest. Basically no "it can't be helped," bullshit, I'm gonna fight for my rights as a citizen of this country. It didn't go anywhere despite Korematsu's case making it to the Supreme Court, but these kids were ostracized from the larger community ever since then. But hell, even I view "quiet strength" positively. It's just part of my inheritance and culture. I don't expect everyone to display it, but it's something I largely try to demonstrate and admire. Yukiko inheriting the Inn has a lot of "asa-dora" vibes to me. "Asadora" is what Japan calls the traditional morning dramas that have aired since the ~60s on NHK channel. Usually the premise revolves around a young woman (oftentimes who has YN traits), inheriting her dad's/uncle's, some man in her family's business. I feel like it's kinda a vicarious, feel-good fantasy for a lot of the housewives lol. Though once again, nothing wrong with the women who like that kind of lifestyle themselves. Women aren't a monolith lmao. And speaking of, yes even collectivist cultures vary on "interoversion-extroversion" scale, like how India and many parts of SE Asia are much more gregarious/extroverted than East Asia, but still have the whole familial/societal expectation thing going on. Thanks always for the thoughtful comments Klingy! And for spurring some additional ideas and/or anecdotes I can cover later down the line!

@@LadyVirgilia Don't push yourself too much but a quick video on them would be interesting. Interested to hear your take on the archetype, the main thing I know is her laughing fits are framed like a massive trope subversion in the story. (Also interesting: they're not something her Shadow ever does despite it being a part of herself she hides, further showing how Shadows are only one part of someone) Sorry your mother had to go through that, but it's also a good highlight of this kind of thing. Not sure how related this is, but I recently learned that just before WWII, Japan proposed a racial equality bill in the League of Nations and America openly rejected it. Never heard of Asa-dora before, that's why I like your content.

I have no idea why Ryuji is well liked anywhere. I hate the fucker with every fiber of my being. He's obnoxious, yelling about how you're the phantom thieves every 30 seconds. Moreover he's literally just P4 Kanji again but lacking any nuance or likability Kanji had. I mean they both: have delinquent reputations and trouble with authority, dyed blonde hair, are kinda stupid, loud, aggressive, single mother, use blunt weapons, Zio and physical movesets (only difference is Ryuji has Chie's physical moveset because Chariot). The game even notes in canon that Ryuji has no reason to be in the plot, no role on the team. When you start a confidant it cuts to Sae saying you must have had someone to do x job or provide y service; for Ryuji all she can say is that you must have worked with someone. And he isn't even your first ally; Morgana is

Honestly, I don't like Ryuji that much either. But I'm definitely baffled that Japanese dudes prefer Morgana (AKA the one that hijacked Okumura's arc) over him and Ann.

What are you talking about yosuke is still really popular in the west sure some people don’t like him but I love him and he still tops polls all the time

Yes it's so hurtful and dangerous when a person's inner turmoil is treated as "all in their head." Every person's feelings/thoughts/pain is valid and should be treated as such (especially by a mental health professional). Sorry to hear about your experience growing up with bullying 😞 Thanks for sharing some of your personal story!

The "smart with a bright future" thing I feel is less shilling her and more emphasizing the societal pressure on teenagers to perform well in academics in Japan. Getting a college recommendation is a HUGE deal and the "bright future" thing is just kinda how it goes in Japan: simply being accepted into a good college virtually guarantees you stable employment. Which is something Makoto desperately needs because her family has no male breadwinner.

@@BigKlingy I am Japanese I know getting into a good college is important. My English isn’t great so I think I confused you. What I mean is I think why fans didn’t like Makoto is because she wasn’t kind to the protagonists. not because she is reserved. And since she didn’t know their struggle she came off as rude

Makoto's confidant actually doubles down on her lack of respect towards others. She admits that the "old her" would have looked down on Eiko for not focusing on school as Eiko doesn't have to since her parents will just give her a job at their business in the future. This SHOULD normally lead to her finding positive qualities & a true mutual respect for Eiko, but instead the confidant ends with her getting into Eiko's relationship issues to the point where she makes a big scene of it in public, slapping & hitting Eiko in front of a big crowd. She even refuses to be the first one to apologize or reach out to Eiko after she ran off, stating that Eiko needs to "cool down" first & then they'll talk. It's incredibly victim-blaming & even more disgusting is that Makoto deems this as justice served even though Tsukasa has not been arrested or fired & none of his victims are rescued from their forced sex work. Makoto literally was nearly sold into sex slavery herself during the Kaneshiro arc, aka her true introduction which makes her come off as cruel & hypocritical, which I doubt the writers were intending. >.

You’re the first person I see critiquing Makoto’s response to Ann. I’ve seen people quick to hate on Ann for lashing out towards Makoto as if Makoto didn’t say anything to offend her.

@@mlkywine6852 I feel like people just kinda forget the entire context of that first interaction. She starts off hostile towards them & treats them more like obstacles in her path rather than as victims of a convicted criminal. And then she still doesn't show any compassion towards them even tho she was compassionate towards the students who asked for her help. Although that may be an unintentional recurring character flaw - Makoto only showing kindness towards people who actively seek her for help & not towards people who didn't ask for her help. It kinda feels like she feels her position (as stuco prez & honor student) means that it's perfectly okay for her to demand things of others (unless they are adults, specifically ones with authority over her) & thus doesn't know how to react when people deny her that or say that she hasn't done enough. Hence why she does things like demanding an adult yakuza tell her if he's breaking the law & why she victim-blamed Ann about Shiho. That latter is doubly ironic because Ann was tricked into thinking she WAS doing something to help Shiho & didn't have any real options to help her. Even if Shiho quit the volleyball team & Ann refused Kamoshida, he still has plenty of other girls he's 100% going to take it out on & make it out to be their fault for making him angry.

It does! Unfortunately a lot of people don't pay much attention to the arcana archetypes 😅

oh and one last thing the whole point of the persona series was to shine a light on the issues that was going on in that generation persona 1 and 2 had some issues that went on with the cast in that time period same for 3 and 4 and 5 within there own time periods.

@@LadyVirgilia well i started to after being caught within the fandom for a while.

You got me there. I thought Makoto was Empress, too, and Futaba as Priestess. But then I saw Makoto’s Arcana and got stymied.

Persona 5 is pretty weak design-wise compared to the other Persona games. They probably tried to make the characters "more deep" or "more realistic" but just ended up making them incongruent.

Agreed!

But that just applies to every character really I mean what does Ann add after the first arc

@@abdullahamr9941Agreed. I feel like the characters don’t develop unless you go out of your way to do their social links. Not that the social links are bad, but character development just stops the second they join your party and that is very irritating

@@mlkywine6852 I call it PAS Post awakening syndrome it's when after they awaken they lose all the spotlight unless you do thier social links

@@mlkywine6852​ (not expecting anyone to read this) but I feel like that’s the beauty of these games. Wanting a character to grow and become more than they already are is exactly what drives the player to hang out with them. Those who you want to see develop become your focus while those who are less interesting can be ignored. You don’t need to see everyone’s development, and that gives the player more freedom. I understand the frustration that most characters don’t see development in the base story; it’s rather annoying seeing the characters that you enjoy remain flat and go under minimal conflict. However, I think the base story in most these games decides to focus on the plot more so than the characters themselves. That is not saying that each character don’t get their moments of characterization throughout the stories, just that the journeys’ destinations are not that of growing as characters. That growth is left to the freedom of the player on who they want to prioritize and see grow as a character. There is definitely a valid arguement that this makes the characters feel replaceable. Which in all honesty, is ultimately true, they are all replaceable. But, even if their role is insignificant, every character has their own charm and makes the game feel as if they deserve to be there. You could easily switch out Ryuji for a different personality, switch around the story so it fits with that personality, but ultimately, would you want to? How about switching out Chie, or Morgana, or Teddie? This all ties into my initial thoughts, as the charm that each one of these characters have is exactly what strives you to want to learn more about them. It’s just a different way of writing, which ultimately puts the player at fault if they didn’t feel like a character was emphasized enough. It’s why a majority of the game is taken up hanging out with the characters, as that’s to give the player as much time to bond with the characters they enjoy. Just my thoughts. (Side Note) I hope my perspective isn’t shortsighted as I haven’t played Persona 3 and am yet to finish Persona 4. Also, sorry for the essay, just speaking my mind.

*gasp* the enemy!

It is only about her wayward friend in the most superficial of inspections, it is much more about Makoto, and how deeply she cares, how she feels responsible for "everything" and how to change this from being something negative (pressuring herself on behest of expectations of others) to something positive (helping other people, exploring her own reasons and desires). I liked it, and it suits Makoto as a character.

@@MrSmokinDragon I do think that the confidant itself doesn't really challenge her in a big way, if they did a big reveal that the guy was innocent then would actually make the confidant better, this of a similar problem with rise's social link where the main story has a similar plot point/arc and it's awkward seeing the same thing all over again just told differently

i totally agree. i forget Fuuka exists, Makoto is too unfocused and unlikeable, and Yukiko is my favorite goofy bubbly lesbian

Dislike towards a character may be due to how act, regardless of the accomplishments and/or struggles that made them that way or are going through. You can relate to a character and still dislike them due to how they act. In my case, I’m not a fan of Makoto’s authoritative nature after joining. Also, never been a fan of people or characters who can’t keep their hands to themselves especially in combination with the annoying _“girls are scary when angry”_ trope. Often feels unjustified and they usually, if ever, receive no repercussions for doing so, even when they’re in the wrong.

⁠​⁠@@EWOODJ completely agree on this regard! I’ve definitely had expectations to live up to that felt overwhelming but that’s not what’s isolating or annoying about makoto. It’s her over extended authority and lack of sympathy in her interactions with others that put me off to her first part of her introduction. I’m already someone with an aversion to buzzkill characters who act dismissive or controlling of other people’s lives and seeing that in a character the game explicitly pushes you to respect and adore is tiring ngl. Her social link doesn’t help and most of her interactions going forward in the team is either scolding others or spouting exposition. So while I see her circumstances as very relatable, her personality will just never be for me personally.

​@@Ash-tu1oc It's understanding that the personality can come as a result of the circumstances. You're fair in your view. I'm just saying

I feel like Makoto's western reception is a vocal minority. She still consistently places high in polls and it feels like most people at least don't mind her. It's just that those who hate her tend to REALLY hate her. (And I think a large portion of that comes from her being the most popular Joker romance for a while)

Meanwhile, I continue to be baffled by Akechi's popularity. Screw that weaselly little creep. He's not even an interesting villain; just a psychopath with a smarmy public mask.

@@jasonblalock4429 For me is a matter of sympathy. I understand his reasons but not justifying. Also I like his charismatic behavior. I understand your point as well. There're lot of braindead ppl who romanticize & idolize those type of "stereotype/troop" maniacs.

@@jasonblalock4429 a jealous guy who wanted all of the credit but was stolen by Ren

U sound really chill man, glad u look at life this way broski

@@ArividerchiMagmuasue thank you that means a lot

Wow, you said everything perfectly

Wow thanks so much again!! Really appreciate it! 🙏

Yeah I felt like her story arc was about her growing a spine. Like she gets pushed around and commanded by everyone in her life until she cracks. Which is when she unlocks her persona and becomes a PT. While her social link was about expanding on that, by going out into the world to learn about all the things she missed by being so passive

I can’t speak for Makoto cuz I don’t like her, but Fuuka is enjoyable in regards to her development being entirely on her own. She isn’t a Makoto or a Yukiko in that they only come to the realization of who they are and what they want to be cuz of the player or Persona team. Fuuka protects herself and others, forgives ppl, befriends them, and resolves conflicts on her own. She pushes herself and grows and learns. But I can 100% why that would be “boring”, since the player isn’t an active participant in their journey. And we don’t get to see Fuuka hurt as much as the others. But it also makes her growth more natural and admirable. The introvert pushed herself and became strong all on her own. Glad to see someone like Yukiko tho, she’s so underrated lol

Tbh tho, I find Fuuka more socially awkward than Yukiko in a way that isn’t just moe points like Makoto or Yukiko, so she’s def more relatable lol.

I wished people know maki and persona 1 more.

I also don't understand how the fuck Reiji is a secret party member in P1 when he is the character with the highest personal stakes in the plot of the SEBEC route.

I mean maki is probably my favorite girl in persona period,but I don't see what that has to do with the video since she wasn't even part of the topic being discussed

@@anxhelovucinaj1576 She is of the same arcana as the three characters mentioned in the video. She is a high priestess and one of the most powerful persona users in the series, as she can travel to the Kadath, the birthplace of all Personae and the second-deepest layer of the collective unconsciousness.

@@basilofgoodwishes4138 Oh wow it totally slipped my mind that she was of the priestess arcana as well,sorry about that

Re: Makoto, her confidant is generally agreed to be one of the worst in P5 even by people who like her, so I wouldn't judge her by that. Just keep playing the main story. Rise definitely takes on a new meaning once you know Japanese idol culture. Its so brutal that Persona 4 Dancing All Night's whole story is deconstructing the idol industry.

@@BigKlingy Ann's confidant I did finish already, since it was one of the few available early, and man I dont see how another can be as boring as that. I can appreciate that she keeps her resolve when getting knocked down, but nothing at all changes in the larger picture unless I just missed something or forgot it already. 😄

@@jmporkbob I like Ann's Confidant more on replays, but I agree it's not one of the more memorable ones, and only Rank 9 is particularly great. Persona 5 in general has very weak party Confidants imo, most of the really good ones are NPCs.

@@BigKlingy Yea I like Kawakami and Takemi's so far. At 8 on both.

Let's be honest, when it comes to Makoto, there are those that have legit reasons for disliking her and then there are others that simply dislike her for her popularity. These are the ones that'll say "she's overhyped". Like dude, people like what they like 🤷🏻‍♀️ if you don't understand the reason people like her, doesn't mean everyone thinks like you. And these people are usually the loudest too 😂 Anyways, I think she's great. ^_^ She was my first choice with Vanilla P5 and I don't think it's ever gonna change.

Her resolution isn't just to become a cop, it's to become police commissioner. The top dog at the station that would be in the best position to stamp out any corruption.