we criticise china, yet we continue to consume their output, and demand it even. so we are the problem of china!

My goodness what a lot of Moliere's learned fools who completely missed the real cause of division, equality and climate destruction. One of your panellists believes it is all China's fault but missed the point that while Chinese industrial pollution has increased more than any country but he did not mention that the Western countries have sent their manufacturing to China because it can do it cheaper. Australia who provides coal and gas to provide energy for that manufacturing does not the take responsibility for that carbon pollution. The USA sends war machinery to many countries and bombs housing and infrastructure and steals the oil but does not include those massive carbon costs in their inventory. We need a fairer allocation of carbon responsibility not a system based on reduced responsibility for countries that demand easier targets to get them to do anything at all.

Sakur the perfect BBC clone and by now an ancient curiosity...

"Hope" willfully ignores the underlying insidious nature of the forces that have created the precarious present moment

Rutger immediately reaches for the Trump example makes him appear to be rather shallow.

what a lot of tripe

No in-depth discourse, maybe because it was a short time allowance, but that makes me think this was more of an advert than a true debate

This talk is a great example of clear, evidence-based thinking - Niall Ferguson - versus fuzzy, ideological reasoning - Rutger Bregman.

I enjoyed the dialogue. This comment is limited to the climate segment. I don’t which to disparage Rutger. But the costs to working class in western democracies is based on premise that it is a meaningful change and I heard no concrete rebuttal. It was purely academic and self serving to ideology. Leadership in any social or economic endeavour is in fact a demonstrable result. What is the demonstrable result?

Glad we didn’t have to listen to Bolton’s blather.

Had to cut this short after listening to the statements of Rutger…hope the rest wasn’t so feeble.

Rutger: survival of the shameless.... Niall: I'll just jump in here.

My feeling is that anybody who's studying history seriously cannot be over optimistic about the fate of mankind-Niall nailed it on the head of Rutger

‘social solidarity actually increased’ during the first lockdown? If that was the case, why couldn’t I buy any toilet paper for 3 months?

Development of Hypersonic weapons signals that this could be the most opportune time to think about elimination of nuclear weapons

The guy in the yellow shirt is very silly. I'm not a fan of Trump but half the population would have been friendly with him.

The sound is rather low.

Niall Ferguson was a bit prickly but i completely understand his frustration. These Intellectuals are so full of poop. What utopian bubbles do they live in?

Rutger Bregman: Nice people do better so if Trump was around back in the day he wouldn't been shunned and consequently starved. That's some top tier theorizing right there.

Niall Ferguson idea that its a silly argument to include the cumulative emissions of the west. The US and Western Europe got incredibly wealthy thanks to 150+ years of industrialized activity and the bulk of the emissions - no one really knew the consequences at the time. Now we go to China and India that are rapidly industrializing and tell them sorry you need to cut emissions because of the vast amount of c02 that has been pumped into the atmosphere, mostly by the west - yes that's going to go over really well. And we're not even talking about all the ways the UK and western europe benefited in the colonialism era, ie. let's buy opium in India and force the Chinese to buy it (the Opium Wars, while almost forgotten here are still remembered over there).. The 300 years of wealth extraction from India etc. The centuries of the cycle of the transatlantic slave trade etc. Regarding US emissions: they have not grown much in recent years thanks to the economic slowdown due to 2008 financial collapse, transition to natural gas over coal, and the economic slowdown of the pandemic, certainly very little due to policy. No apologist for China, they are still a dictatorship, with all sorts of human rights issues, surveillance state, etc (and the Tiananmen square massacres of protesters in 89) but they did invest more in renewables in 2019 than both US and EU put together. As far as as Putin starting a war with Ukraine - well think of what Voltaire said - God is on the side of the biggest cannon (or rather economy). Russia with its $2trillion GDP (about the same as Italy or Canada) with most 65% of its economy based on fossil fuels, and much of its industrial economy and open air museum, run by a kleptocracy of 5000 Putin cronies looking out for each other - will lose the next cold war faster than the last time. No need to fight militarily, start by enforcing the Magnitsky act on all the Russians living in fancy properties in western Europe with their kids going to expensive private schools (that's actually been very effective) lock them out of the SWIFT banking system etc. The world's economy is very much interconnected but it will hurt them a lot more.

Thank God for Niall Ferguson. Belief in the friendliness and cooperative instincts of humanity is exactly that, belief, void of connection to reality.

A lot of these people are incapable of thinking in terms of geopolitics. They think in terms of win-win against people (China and Russia) who have conflicting interest with ours and think in zero-sum terms. If we wreck the economy for 50 years to solve this while China grows, what do we when they start throwing their weight around? There's other ways to reduce emissions: greater investment in renewables, trying to implement incentives for the free market to solve this, using natural gas as a stop gap since it releases less carbon, trying to speed up research into nuclear fusion, etc.

The people in the room are sitting apart but the others are huddled together in the doorway, .

Very long intro. 3:25 for the first question.

I watch regularly Ferguson, Rice and other Hoover fellows (bunch of Brits) I cringe when those neocons try to pretend they’re passionate human beings talking about past wars and catastrophic events in the history yet they are the biggest supporters and creators of the wars and conflicts going on today around the world. Hypocrisy I guess.

During a drought Rameses II, provided food to Ancient Egypt’s traditional enemies the Nubians.

I did enjoy this conversation a lot. Thank you, Niall Ferguson, for having come out in defense of Thomas Hobbes. Throughout the whole session I felt that Rutger Bregman does not know his history. I laughed tears when Niall depicted Greta Thunberg as a “medieval child saint”… priceless! 😄🤣

"this is how democracy works... its not complicated " wow!!! well at least one thing in the universe is "not complicated"!

The shared litany of fatuity voiced by the European soi-disant progressives was beginning to engender despair for the old world. Young Mr. Bregman’s wry observation that a strike on their part would have almost no effect was a bracing tonic.

For academics, these people gave us a very superficial "debate"... ... or have we collectively come to expect so little from them in terms of depth of thought in these matters anyway ? It certainly helps explaining a good part of how insidiously our predicament was woven, year after year after year ...

What is going on outside the window?

Is that Kevin O’Leary walking in front at the beginning????

“Survival of the shameless.” Aimed straight at Niall.

Rutger's idea that life's too precious, so 'humanity' wouldn't risk annihilating ourselves is predicated on humanity being sane. But, as highly egoic beings, i.e. given the level of irrationality and insanity amongst humanity (or, more significantly, among the minority of powerful and influential), all bets of "rational" thinking are off. And that, right there, is why there's a good chance humanity will commit suicide. I mean, in a fractal reality, where micros reflect and are embedded in macros (and vis versa) - the fact that individuals commit suicide at an increasing rate (in many countries, suicide is at alarming if not record high levels - and only getting worse as mental illness, ecological grief, etc, rises) means at the macro humanity level the same scenario is a distinct possibility - unless specific effective action is taken to disrupt that trajectory.

There will be great selfies in apocalypse. Twitter and FB stocks will go through the roof

covid cant be a warning, because nothing we did improved material conditions for people and our reaction was to massively centralize capabilities. centralization is great for optimization, it is counterproductive to resiliency. a red herring maybe.

“Apocalypse” is probably a misnomer. Eschaton means “end of the world”. Apocalypse means “unveiling or disclosure”.

Niel you should have let the wasp 🐝 sting him.

Since there is ppl asking for Equal between 0 and 1 the ending is near .

‘you’re idea of human nature can become a self-fulfilling prophecy’

here in Spain, COVID made us more cooperative, and solidarity for the weak and sick made us take the jab without many doubts. It is not that many of us did not doubt about the vaccines, but it was important to avoid our elders to remain exposed to such a menace. I believe that the best chance to survive is to stay together.

Well, if you had hopes of answering the main question, keep on dreaming. In terms of providing a little glimpse into the minds of these two thinkers, quite instructive. I suppose one could expect little more than that given the time allowed for the debate, and also for the quality of the question!

Really? Trump? And he's the "expert" on co-operation? Sure he is.

Would have been nice to hear the Chinese perspective from maybe say, someone born in China.

It'll be a process, not an event.

Total admiration for Ferguson s emphasis on THAT.

The covid pandemic can be characterized as Apocalypse Light.

#Books mentioned in this video: Doom: The Politics of Catastrophe Paperback Ferguson Niall, Michael Bociurkiw Digital Pandemic

Anyone else notice the John Bolton cameo?

This is the Yalta conference that is not being actually held in Yalta which is now rightfully after a short break is again part of the Russian Federation, never to leave again

Very bad superficial discussion!!! Nial Ferguson really wants to fight with China. As American he is in panic loosing the number one spot and nowadays as a true American he has no problem with lying! He simply missing the open mind to see the USA being happy in rank 2 or 3 after those huge Asian countries with non white citizens. Since 1568 the Dutch citizens own the politicians in the Netherlands! Since 1978/2010 the US oligarchs own the politicians in the USA. The USA is more and more an oligarchy like Russia. The Netherlands is a democracy, where really every vote counts due to proportional representation.

Niall making sense, everyone else ignoring him and the Dutch guy taking bollocks. Niall is clearly bored to death with the whole charade. And the Dutch guy doesn’t even know that the Netherlands has the worst wealth inequality in the world with a Gini Coefficient of 0.902…

So, what do we do about climate change?

The author moved his family to my birth state because ethics exist protecting ranchers since my ancestors settled this territory before becoming a state . Montana bred have always relied on community with practical solutions not to waste time, assets or $

So many discussions in Europe seem to lack a deep understanding of the latest research in anthropology, sociology and neuroscience

It's important to see Neil talking in terms of the logic of strategy, whereas others were talking in terms of the logic of common sense.

Ask the oligarchs about Ukraine

No, we aren't.

Marvelous.

Vietnam, Kerala and China did really well in a broader sense with covid but Ferguson's biases against anything on the left shows once again. Cuba did well despite cruel US sanctions. Last time I listen to Ferguson.

Essential workers lasted about 24 hours.

Mr Ferguson's remarks on the folly of restricting energy generation in the west while China accelerate its own energy output increase. Both sides are pledging the world all the "greenness" possible IN THE FUTURE. While the country the reduced emissions the most was the USA, China keeps adding all kinds of energy generation...

Not a bad discussion with some variety of perspectives, from the Scottish chap at the more binary end and the Dutch chap at the more nuanced end.

The guy seems to blather on endlessly without getting to the subject. Got tired of it and quit watching.

where is this, and what is this? why are people wandering through the audience? and yes, Niall won in rebuttal.

Lost me at “friendliest survived and had more children….” One name, Genghis Khan. If I’m not mistaken, a good portion of the world has some of his dna.

Hi Neill, "per capita" was a thing somehow, somewhere, somewhat somehow of your argument on some other quests of debate, wasn`t it !? And then knowing and discoursing on the greenhouse effect before Greta was even born to no effect and then shading her efforts as hypocritical is something else entirely. Thanks man.

It is here.Just look around you.Too many greedy people want more than their fair share..

Niall fails because Democracy gerrrymandering

Followship as a complement of Leadership is problematic. The masses followed Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Xi in the 21st century? Moreover, in recent centuries, “noble casualties” have been low. Dictators can surrender and save their own necks. Had Napoleon been dealt with, when first captured, there would have been no Battle of Waterloo. In the SALT talks, Kennedy and Khrushchev agreed to not use SLBMs, because reaction times might be too short to preserve their respective Governments. Is it better to battle in the Taiwan Straits or the PLA to assassinate Xi?

The most important threat to our civilization is… us.

I couldn't disagree with Rutger more. The idea that if you create a theory, that people - human nature - will conform to it, was disproved on a massive and bloody scale by the communists. Those social systems which have been successful start with human nature and the natural laws (like economics) and try to work within them to maximize benefit for society. Capitalism, for example, for all its flaws, has done more to lift people out of poverty and advance the human condition than any other system in the history of the world. The same is true for free societies versus those with powerful and repressive (and usually corrupt and self-serving) governments.

How much of China's energy usage is from goods that are made for the west?

Trump was given a pretty good start. Hard to loose what he inherited.

too much about china, too little about the announced topic. china produces for the usa , canada, germany, greatest britain and australia. For austria too. And for sweden, finnland, france, elon musk, for spain, italy and for south africa and portugal. Plus for switzerland. And last but not least for mexico, brasil and island, scotland and ireland, plus a hundred more nation states, who import alll that stuff...they ordered from chinas producers. and btw.: china has built more solarstuff in the last 2yrs than the us of a has. AND: the us military emitts more co2 than the poorest 140 states of our homeplanet called world

Eh.. John Bolton

Only hope is Jesus Christ

Uhm, half of Asia is descended from Attila the Hun...

A very informative discussion!

Hmm. one in six or higher? Well, One in Million is "Higher".😉😉

Niall is always a light of wisdom & sanity

Ominous

Growing inequality is a problem but it is not a problem of Capitalism, it is created by profligate governments in an age of fiat currency. They agreed amongst themselves that government debt could be bought by banks and rated as risk free in the Basel3 agreement. Governments continue to deficit spend so more and more money is created by banks to meet their demand, this money is spent into the economy. Money will always seek a return so the money is invested in yield returning assets, as the money amount increases asset prices rise and yields drop and the cycle continues. Most hard assets like land, stocks and housing are owned by the rich so the results of overspending by government is the rich get richer. There are other deleterious effects. I am surprised none of these guys have a clue about what is actually going on. The guy who is compare is daft enough to blame capitalism, no capitalism creates the wealth governments who promise to much and create huge debts cause a large amount of the inequality by forcing asset prices higher

#book Mentioned Steven #Pinker enlightenment now

Not clearly audible

Trump would have been in charge thousands of years ago.

Mr yellow shirt "wishfull thinking and hope" and Ferguson really intelligent analysis. But both are needed now.

26:50 min “Greta Thunberg harangues us like a medieval child saint” 🤣🤣🤣

Ferguson on about the Chinese, stunningly poor analysis.

Blah blah

Hey Niall, how about engaging with China in a meaningful way, namely, treat them as equals who we need to cooperate with to solve this and many other problems. You seem to think that China is not aware of the climate problem and that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Do you really believe China doesn't care about this issue? Frankly what seems more dangerous is the antagonistic attitude the U.S. has decided to take with respect to China driven by their fear of losing their dominant position in the world. The only way the problem is going to be solved is through cooperation on a global scale and your comments don't help one bit with that. Try thinking a bit harder.

Niall Ferguson is brilliant.

My God, what annoying voice that Rutger guy has! Or maybe it is the smugness....

I've flushed better arguments than this sh#t...

Thumbs up for Niall!

That Dutch hippie needs to learn how to dress. It’s embarassing.

That historian narcissist is the one that wouldn’t survival.