Thanks I'm glad the video was useful! Yes, Fromsoft is one of the better devs when it comes to understanding how real armor is supposed to work.

That sounds like a sounder typology to me, as it replicates period vocabulary (and thus mindset), with the epithet referring to the technology used as a detail/precision (which isn't that important, since they are functionally practically indiscernable).

Yep, I think that's a way better way to refer to it.

Split mandible armet and continuous mandible armet could be more to the point. Hinged vs pivoted isn’t as obvious about what it being hinged/pivoted. Hinged split mandible armet and pivoted continuous mandible armet could be even more descriptive, but that’s getting a bit long in my opinion.

Lone Wolf thanks for checking out the channel!

Same here mate.

Same

You are the only other person that has spoken of this issue. I've been looking for years for this type of helmet from Dark Souls.

Yep, so do I

Thank you for the kind words! Don't thank me for the captions, thank my generous viewers! Some people were kind enough to contribute captions on several of the videos!

+Lars Huijs thanks! I plan to save that information for a more detailed video on the close helmet specifically, and perhaps a video dedicated to later style armets.

Knyght Errant That sounds awesome! Can't wait to see it.

Knyght Errant Yay!

My pleasure!

"Would the 15th century Northern Italian, 🇮🇹 close helmet ⛑ Milanese plate 🍽 armor and chain mail 🔗 worn by the Spanish, 🇪🇸 conquistadors protect their heads, from the primitive stone 🪨 age weapons such as the clay balls ⚽ made of stone 🪨 and obsidian rock 🪨 thrown from a string made sling used by the primitive stone 🪨 age Aztec jaguar 🐆 and eagle 🦅 warriors of Mexico?" 🇲🇽

I always thought they looked awesome 😁🙏✌️

"Would the 16th century renaissance German 🇩🇪 Maximilian helmet ⛑ plate 🍽 armor and chainmail ⛓ protect the Spanish,🇪🇸 conquistadors wearing it, from the primitive stone 🪨 age clay balls ⚽ made of stone 🪨 and obsidian rock 🪨 being thrown from a string made sling used by the primitive stone 🪨 age Aztec jaguar 🐆 and eagle 🦅 warriors of Mexico?" 🇲🇽

mazaisvilijs It's nowhere near as simple as that. Maille is actually a quite old invention (early iron age) and has probably been around as long as scale armours. Also keep in mind, that while scale armour was used historically in antiquity (particularly by the Persians), there is little evidence for its use in Western Europe in the Middle Ages.

Persians, Sassanid Empire (their successors), Byzantine Empire. That's where scale armor was used a lot, especially by a formation called Cataphracts - used by all of those cultures. In most other regions and ages it was mail/plate in the west and lamellar (sometimes with mail and plate elements too) in the east. The only periods when scale armor was used more widely in Europe were: - Roman Empire (lorica squamata, usually light armor made from brass, not much protection but looks nice and is very light, so centurions would wear it). - Charlemagne's reign (copying the roman style, we have no survivng artifacts though, only depictions - so it's likely that they used Avar lamellar and maille more, and were depicted in scale because it looks nice) - Late 17th Century Polish hussars, who believed they were direct descendants of ancient sarmatians and wanted to wear armor that would look the part - it was called karacena. It offered much, MUCH worse protection than their earlier half-plate armor, but again, they worn it cause it looked nice. I think that's enough references to start googling, but as far as Ian's field of expertise goes (I guess from 11th to 16th Century western Europe), scale armour is pretty much non-existent.

mazaisvilijs look up Lammaner armour

Matt Easton has a video about scale armor over on the schola gladiatora channel. He says that scale armor was much rarer than mail, because mail armor was basically better in every way. More protective (scale armor is vulnerable to rising cuts and stabs that come in from below), just as easy to make, and more flexible. So once mail was invented it quickly replaced scale armor. He also suggests that scale armor is depicted in historical art much more than it was actually used basically because it "looked cool", and was likely easier to represent in artwork.

Scale armor is not the same as lamellar armor. But I am not sure that what Matt Easton said is true. First scales were often sewn or riveted on more than one sides. Second the base material often was mail itself. Scale armor was used along mail for more than a thousand years Chinese, Persians, Romans, Byzantines used scale armor. Some Roman source mention that scale armor was more expensive and valued more than mail because it gave better protection against bludgeoning attacks. But was heavier and more expensive. It seems to me that the rise of the lammelar and plate armor that pushed scale armor into extinction rather than the mail.

A lot of people don't even realize that even the 'old timey' sounding terms we use today are often post-medieval.

Good timing indeed! :)

Hi, thanks for checking out the channel, and welcome!

The piece you're describing is a 'wrapper plate' and it's worn in addition to the cheek places of an armet. It goes _over_ the whole thing, not in place of. In this video of Jeff Wasson, you can see exactly what I'm talking about, he is putting on his armet and then he will secure the wrapper over that (kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aK6nhdR73L68k4U.htmlm29s)

Ahhh, cheers, I always thought that was a separate kind of befor plate that replaced the cheek guards. Makes sense to have double-layered protection there, though, thanks!

Thanks! I agree with your example applications. I think sometimes we get too hung up on terminology now-a-days. It can artificially limit the way we think about things, especially for objects that don't fit neatly into our modern categories and we sometimes even use terminology in non-constructive pedantic ways that don't help anyone. I think this particular terminology is useful in two general modern applications. The first is that It offers a certain level of precision in discussions where the differentiation in construction is important while preventing you from having to constantly backtrack and explain the difference or use more cumbersome terms. The other is when trying to understand the developmental paths of these helmets, since while they had a sort of aesthetic convergence, the paths they took to get there were different enough to warrant separation in my opinion.

+Justin Dewey armor decoration is definitely on the list of topics I want to cover

Met 29.158.52, Flemish c.1505 - www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22775

@@KnyghtErrant thank you

Thanks. The armet does have a full video dedicated to its history (kzfaq.info/get/bejne/adaZf9OD0Zq1fJc.html) if you want to know more. The super condensed version is that the armet began development at the tail end of the 14th century in Italy. The close helmet, even though the styling ended up being similar to armets, grew out of experimentation with sallet designs in the very late 15th century. One of the earliest predecessors of the true close helmet is the 'close sallet' developed by Lorenz Helmschmied for Emperor Maximilian I. So the close helmet got its start a century later than the armet, and developed out of the sallet, rather than the bascinet, even though they ended up looking very similar in the 1500s.

Thank you!

Yes, as modern people we often make the mistake of trying to look at the past through the context of our modern aesthetic instead of making an effort to understand the historical context. This, in my opinion, alters the way we think about the objects and events of the past in a way that hampers our understanding. You can't make the past fit the present. :)

Thank you for responding! It means a lot and its good to see your opinion on this. I must admit I do agree with your response. The industrial revolution has really changed a lot on how humans live so understanding the past can be sometimes hard in our perspectives. Though its probably one of the many reasons why I love history as it gives a larger perspective onto so many things. :)

YES!

any movie/fantasy armour really. could become a whole series of videos.

this

I'm not an expert, but, from what I could tell, a significant amount of it was historical (with some exceptions), but it was also heavily anachronistic. A lot of it looked like pieces dating from early 15th century to late 16th century, in a film taking place in the 1370s.

Maximilian style armor just refers to an aesthetic style. There are both armets and close helmets in the Maximilian style.

hi ian! love your channel! very informative! and thanks for the info! been using your vids to settle some debates among my friends. You are the go to guy in my opinion when it comes to the topic of historical discussion about armor here in youtube. Since most youtubers focus more on weapons. Keep up the great quality content!

If you mean as a replacement for an arming doublet, the difficulty would be that you can't attach anything to a hoodie. Normally things like your arm harness are pointed (tied) to the arming doublet. It's also not very fitted to the individual, so there would be a lot of unnecessary bulk under the armor that would make it uncomfortable to wear and probably overly hot and immobile.

lancer D do you know the name of that helmet ?

The lower portion cannot slide past the upper pieces. If you try to raise the lower portion it will raise all of them.

Thank you!!! Thats what I had figured. With that said, would you say that the helmet of the elite knight from dark souls is a functional/realistic depiction of a closed helm? I do a lot of sketching and I really admire it's design but I want to know if its believable or not.

No, quilted textile on the leg is unnecessary if the leg armor is very closely fit. Even the upper body is very lightly padded in some places, and virtually unpadded in others. Closely fitted plate does an excellent job of dissipating force over the surface area of the armor itself. By the later 15th century, the arming doublet need not be padded at all. Modern jousters who do historical solid lance / steel coronel jousting are taking incredible impacts with with unpadded arming doublets, relying only on their plate harness to keep them safe.

Knyght Errant thank you very much for that answer. Yeah in the end it makes sense. I remember as I were a child put my hand down on a flat surface. If you then beat lightly on your flat hand you really can feel how the table eg absorbs the most energy of the impact.

Knyght Errant So how are the joints protected? Just by mail and a thin layer of cloth underneath?

+Seriduk Paul in general, joints that can't be directly protected by plate are protected by mail. On English effigies we see evidence for small voiders of mail behind the knee and at the instep of the ankle.

www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22775

@@KnyghtErrant - Dope. Thanks!

Historical steels varied greatly in quality and in carbon content. They used everything from pure iron, on up to medium and even high carbon steels (high carbon steel isn't actually good form armor, it usually ends up too hard and brittle for use as armor). There are even layered steels or iron / steel combinations. Modern mild steel is perfectly adequate for reproduction armor as long as it's thick enough in the right places, like the helmet. It will deform under abuse more easily then more expensive options like heat treated medium carbon steels, but it can be used for sure. Mild steel is probably the most commonly used modern steel for armor because it's less expensive and easier to work. I prefer medium carbon steels like 1050, 4130 and other similar alloys that can be hardened and tempered. Mild steel armor tends to be heavier only because you need to use thicker materials for the equivalent protection of thinner harder heat treated medium carbon steels.

You can raise the visor while only exposing a very small portion of your face.

Close-helm, all the way!

+Ser Garlan Tyrell I would very much like to cover the close helmet in more detail. I'd prefer to wait until I can get a hold of a good reproduction but if I can't I will eventually make the video without the show and tell portion I usually do.

Well, he deserves it.

+Juan Murillo yes it is, the first generation 14" I usually use my desktop for video editing although the blade can do it, but not nearly as well. , The blade is a little underpowered and overpriced for what you get. It can't game quite as the well as the marketing language would have you believe, but it's ok. I do love that it's a slim notebook, and I'm not an apple fan at all, but i probably wouldn't buy the blade again.

Thanks for the info :) Love your videos!

The overall shape of the helmet, but the lines blur since the close helmet is a development _of_ the close sallet.

On some early armets the liners were sewn directly to the helmets through pierced holes like on bascinets, but on most later armets / close helmets there are leathers riveted to the inside of the skull (often around the neck flange) to which the liner can be stitched.

@@KnyghtErrant awesome thanks, I was trying to figure out where the leather steps /sewing holes are on armets specifically. I couldn't easily see any rivets or holes on the example you showed in your armet demonstration video.

As a student of armor, the distinction between the mechanical (rather than stylistic) differences can be useful, especially when talking about the functional aspects of the armor.

About that... Armets were always worn with add-on bevor in jousts but closed helmets were often worn without. So does this mean the original wearers would have been aware of the potential weak point the armet's split chin presented?