AV1 Rendering 101: Why Grain is the Most Important Setting (Handbrake & FFmpeg)

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Жыл бұрын

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AV1 is the new thing... it takes forever to render, but once you're finished you should get a file that is 20-30% smaller than an h.265 file at about the same quality... but there's a catch. The settings need to be right or else it'll look like ugly muddy glamorous smudgy nasty putrescent clay.
If you don't want to watch the video, just take this and run: The most important thing is the film grain setting. I enter this and change the amount of film grain depending upon what I'm rendering. You have to turn off the denoise unless you want a mess.
film-grain-denoise=0:film-grain=20
Watch the video to learn about how AV1 handles grain, because it's totally wild and different.
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#av1 #handbrake #tutorial #rendering #encoding #ffmpeg

Пікірлер: 103

@tech360gamer Жыл бұрын

Thank you, Logan. I love AV1 but this is the first video I've come across actually showing the film grain in HandBrake. Much appreciated.

@JeradBenge Жыл бұрын

For a while there, it felt like my life had become replying "Have you tried adding 'film-grain=25:film-grain-denoise=0' to the Advanced Options field?" at least twice a day.

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

It should be default. AV1 doesn't look very good without it imo.

@mgord9518 8 ай бұрын

@@teksyndicateThat's arguable, the quality is more than good enough for a majority of people and the space reduction is significant

@brafya Жыл бұрын

thank you logan for addressing grain, theres a lot of misinformation and people believing grain is undesired or jpeg artifacting and then wonder why their renders look like a garbled mess when they try to filter it out, in all cases it's ideal to try and replicate the original look as much as possible

@OrjonZ Жыл бұрын

grain is an artifact of film. we dont need it.

@brafya Жыл бұрын

@@OrjonZ there is a lot of effort being put into retaining grain, even in the newest of new codecs and technologies as logan demonstrates in this video with av1, it's desired by many, including myself, including logan and many others who want to keep it

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

Don't want it, watch modern anime then

@theandroidguide8848 Жыл бұрын

@@teksyndicate Wait what? Was this a wrong @ comment? Logan err, Franky is DEFENDING grain.

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

@@theandroidguide8848 grain is beautiful and amazing. it's pattern changes with every image so we aren't staring at the same aberration like we are with something like that ugly chromatic purple fringe around highlights or lens flares from bad lenses. Grain gives the image a softer look, makes the bokeh look interesting, and makes the dark areas look more textured. It's used statistically and directors would pick types of file for their grain pattern... they also do the same thing for lens flares, like how they always go for anamorphic lens flares in blade runner and star trek (the horizontal lights). Those are still aberrations, but used artistically. When they are an error, it's pretty obvious. When you try to remove grain, you destroy the original character of the film or even old anime. Those who remove grain are destroying art and I'll die on this hill. Digital noise is a different thing entirely and I don't think it looks as good (usually).

@TheSlyMouse Жыл бұрын

Yoo, been a while since i have been recommended one of your videos. Nice stuff man

@Abrasive-Heat Жыл бұрын

This solved a problem I was having. I use Rambo first blood UHD to setup my reference handbrake settings. The grain in that movie is the reason. AV1 just does weird stuff for some shots when you don’t mess with the grain settings.

@slowlymakingsmoke Жыл бұрын

Well you have just sent me down a whole new rabbit hole. Not sure I should be thanking you, but thanks😂

@ktfjulien Жыл бұрын

Awesome video dude

@jonscot8393 Жыл бұрын

I am just starting to get my head around opening Davinci Resolve so this is going to come in handy (🙄)

@OssLess.FreePS 5 ай бұрын

thx a lot brotha

@into.the.wood.chipper. 7 ай бұрын

I started getting accustomed to grainless movies, but just watched Child's Play from 1988 this morning, and it is just crawling with grain. This appears to be an AV1 stream on Prime Video. Very happy they have finally implemented that, and I have a device that can see it. Rather watch grainy video than color banding, any day.

@Die-Coughman Ай бұрын

I used to do this in vlc when I watched specific anime that used film-grain. I'd just turn on a light film-grain shader and as long as the quality was in the ballpark of bluray it would look great. Covers up a lot of artifacting.

@joegrowsganja5556 Жыл бұрын

I've been fiddling with AV1 for a couple months now. Picking the correct synthesis level is crucial to grain retention. George Romero's Martin took almost 48 hours to transcode. But, the quality and size are unmatched when compared to x265 with all the tweaks. Picking a front-end depends on your knowledge of AV1 and ffmpeg. Fastflix and Handbrake are good for average users. NMkoder and NEAV1E are good starting points if you want chunk encoding. My daily driver is StaxRip and is for intermediate users. If I need to adjust brightness, contrast or saturation, I'll use Fastflix. Ffmpeg with AV1an via command line is above my skill level.

@jaredanson Жыл бұрын

What is chunk encoding

@skevenshow 11 ай бұрын

You r god of decoding

@toto99303 4 ай бұрын

Very informative, thanks! I would love to see if the nVidia AV1 hardware encoder has the same grain issues.

@sem_skywalker 4 ай бұрын

Thanks! This is *exactly* what I wanted to know. ;) Btw... I also have entire TNG on Blu. Great release, except the compression of the grain field definitely could have been better.

@OctopusPrime138 5 ай бұрын

You mentioned your background, while the video was informative all I could see was that “Amritage 3: Polymatrix” poster… I thought I was the only person who remembered that movie thanks to “Saturday Anime” on the Sci-Fi channel back in the mid to late 90’s.

@hdmoviesource 6 ай бұрын

Can you encode normally like x265? Where you encode frame by frame and include the grain? Di yu have ti encode with AV1 this way?

@MrAlivallo 4 ай бұрын

Off topic features I'd like to see in Handbrake: A more robust Preview Tool: Sliding Bar Comparison in the "Preview" section with EST render time, EST Filesize output. And a Historical preview comparison cache/stat would be nice too, with an Estimated filesize tool...Example: If the original file size is 1mb, preview one is rendered at 970kb and took 22sec with xyz settings, preview two is 500k at 30sec with xyyz settings, etc... HUGE time saver IMO.

@RocketKitten1 Ай бұрын

Just started converting all my lossless MKV to AV1, luckily I have an extra i9 14900K in the basement that will be encoding all of it. Will probably be done some time next summer, seriously. 😄

@EmilioExploring 7 ай бұрын

I keep trying but I am not seeing grain? Does the source footage have to have some grain for it to work?

@ralegar1 11 ай бұрын

exploring more stuff to utilize webm, i usually use my nvidia shadow play thing to record gameplay to mp4, then use hand brake to convert to webm to save like, 80% space which is awesome. it converts pretty quick, but i wish it was faster. any dedicated hardware to get webm conversion on like vp9 to go faster?

@WaddleQwacker 7 ай бұрын

Maybe the denoise thing is for people doing CGI using ray tracing, as it produces grainy images that you want to denoise. But I would have made the denoising behavior a non-default behavior in that case, it's pretty niche.

@Manco654 3 ай бұрын

In the latest version of SVT-AV1 the denoise filter is disabled by default.

@jaredanson 11 ай бұрын

What song of yours were you using during the section around 3:39 ?

@ThisOldChris Жыл бұрын

Which player are you using? I tried to download a few av1 files to test with Potplayer and the audio is missing even after installing opencodec... Might be time to switch program.

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

Jellyfin, media player classic, VLC, mpv player all work fine

@user-ru3il1br8j 7 ай бұрын

There must be auto-grain compensation feature in the future to reproduce the original. Even without the use of AI

@unitybeing777 Жыл бұрын

❤

@TheMonsterSculpter 5 ай бұрын

Is this exclusive to SVT AV1 in Handbrake? I tried putting in this code into the field at the bottom on the new Nvenc AV1 10 bit and I'm seeing nothing at all. Ive even tried boosting to something crazy like grain=1000 and there's no difference. Curious if I'm missing something. Before people start saying "never use GPU encoding" I'd like to point out it works very well for me and produces fantastic results at lightning fast speed and comparable size to h265. Only with some certain sources, i lose too much quality and the grain is replaced with some heavy banding and blotching/smoothing of colors. I'm just trying the preserve the grain if I can. Also, are there any codes for preserving things like gamma, contrast and color? Sometimes those get altered and I can't figure out how to stop that.

@Marvin-dc9rz 4 ай бұрын

Have you checked the activity log in handbrake? It tells me an allowed range of 0 to 50 for film grain.

@ajstrobus Жыл бұрын

correct about the denoise, but 11:55 that's poorly encoded video blocking bands in the background not grain, i chuckled when you said look at the pretty grain :) that didn't come from the camera :)

@bobclarke5913 Жыл бұрын

So...if the grain isn't encoded into the video, but applied during playback, can the grain be changed after a file is rendered? It sounds like the grain setting is akin to a playback instruction in metadata, which would be great if true.

@stefanweilhartner4415 Жыл бұрын

theoretically yes. but getting the grain out is not possible without a filter. this is why i do not understand this video. theoretically you would need the denoiser and secondly you would need two parameters for the grain setting, size and intensity.

@jasonx7803 5 ай бұрын

@@stefanweilhartner4415 the film-grain=25 setting actually says "denoise it at level 25" not "add 25 of grain" (according to the docs/source) The grain parameters are determined procedurally by comparing the denoised frame to the source frame, so if 25 produces overly smoothed images you should just set it to a value less than 25, so that it doesn't denoise it as much. From the source/docs: "The process of removing grain can sometimes delete very fine detail from the original image, so it should not be used too aggressively. The level passed to the film-grain parameter controls how aggressively this procedure is employed. As a general rule, a film-grain level of around 8 is sufficient for live action video with a normal amount of grain. Noisier video benefits from higher levels in the 10-15 range. 2-D animation typically has less grain, so a level of around 4 works well with standard (hand-drawn) animation. Grainy animation can benefit from higher levels up to around 10." The reference: gitlab.com/AOMediaCodec/SVT-AV1/-/blob/master/Docs/Appendix-Film-Grain-Synthesis.md

@Tz-eg2dk 10 ай бұрын

Gotta say I dislike the grain at 1080p but prefer it at 4k. At 1080p on a modern large TV the pixels are big enough that the noise is distracting. Keep in mind you're not seeing the actual grain just a very high bitraite H264/VC1 encode from the bluray source which has already done some averaging itself and introduced its own set of codec/encoder setting specific artifacts. You aren't seeing the original picture even on the bluray.. While some blurays are better than others, some of the noise is horrid and incredibly distracting due to the constant movement in the background of every scene. One thing it is worth mentioning is that any encoder will even out the grain unless you provide a very, very low CRF. With a low-ish CRF (22-24 for AV1, 20-23 for HEVC) you end up with denoising that blurs *some* of the grain and often gives really horrible artifacting in the scene because it's trying its best to retain it. This can look a lot worse than bumping the CRF up a bit and removing more of the grain. Though at that point you're better off just applying a denoise filter. I tried SVT-AV1's film grain but denoising only to renoise is so backwards in what we're trying to achieve. The reason denoising can be bad is that you lose small details (hair, stubble, fabric texture, etc). By denoising then adding grain, you're removing those details anyway then masking the fact they've been removed by drawing noise over the top. You're further away from the original image than you are with just the denoiser step because you're drawing over the top of an already altered image. I'll stick with hqdn3d prior to encoding, I'd rather remove the artifacts added in the original encode and not have that jarring dancing scenery in the background.

@seamon9732 Ай бұрын

Or... save on space and compression times by using VLC's ( or other players ) film grain filter that is added at play time. That's what I prefer.

@praetorxyn Жыл бұрын

Great info. I'm in the experimentation phase with encoding my small media collection. I keep reencoding things in different ways and comparing results etc. But honestly since I'm keeping the rips on my NAS as backups anyway I'm not sure recoding is worthwhile.

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

If you're keeping the rips, I'd just watch those... why not watch in the highest quality you have.

@praetorxyn Жыл бұрын

@@teksyndicate Yeah. I've thought about getting another NAS to use my existing one as a backup, so I thought about putting the rips on there and the encodes on the main one for Jellyfin. I'm tinkering with it, but I'll have to try your settings and see how long an encode takes.

@sem_skywalker 4 ай бұрын

I'd encode everything to high-quality low-bitrate AV1, so you can burn it all on dual-layer DVDs or Blu-rays (if you have a burner for that)... Several copies, to hide in different safe locations. In case of a strong EMF blast, in which case all drives and SSDs could be wiped... But if it is not your own produstions, I would not care too much about doing it, as it would take a lot of time to encode. :P

@praetorxyn 4 ай бұрын

@@sem_skywalker Nah, it's just rips from Blu-Rays and DVDs I've bought. AV1 is ideal, but at the moment only my desktop has full support for it (Nvidia Shield Pro with Jellyfin and libvlc seems to Direct Play it, but Shield is not supposed to support AV1 at all, so that may be fishy). Hopefully by the time I start running out of space with full-fat rips, AV1 support will be better and I can consider doing that.

@ingridmoran Ай бұрын

How does this compare to the NLmeans filter options?

@Carlos-cu4ms Жыл бұрын

11:55 "BTW" hahahahahhaha nice

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

It's true!

@MrAlivallo 4 ай бұрын

@11:50 would like to see all three side by side, I constantly do Frame cherry picking with videos, past the point where the time I spend cherry picking could have been spent on more quality Encode. Ahhh the constant search for the perfect settings. You know what would be cool? An AI-companion; that predicts and applies the settings you will most likely pick when you load the video based on the video characteristics and previous settings chosen. Is it Anime? Ahhh, you like this. Is it Film and you want to compress? Here is what you chose last time...

@stefanweilhartner4415 Жыл бұрын

i really don't need the film grain. i do a light nlmeans denoise and light sharpening. this way i get back most of the details. it would be better to have a more sophisticated denoiser to better distinguish between wanted information and noise but that probably needs a kind of 15x15 pixel window, a kind of transformation into the frequency domain, applying the noise filter there, and transform it back to the pixel-domain to get that single pixel and do this for every pixel? or do a transformation into the frequency domain of the whole picture and apply the noise filter there and transform the whole picture back? something like that. or maybe try to make 3-dimensional data with more than one frame and try to solve the problem in a transformed 3-dimensional frequency domain, if possible. and the last step would be to do ai object recognition to eliminate noise.

@lgmnowkondo938 9 ай бұрын

I stumbled on a 750mb rip of the Naked Gun...it looks so clean on my plasma, like no other movie...is this because they used denoise?

@strkilla89 Жыл бұрын

You mentioned ripping a 4k bluray. I’ve been meaning to do this for a while for my own collection but the makemkv forums guide seems to be a bit of mess. Would love a video on that.

@stefanweilhartner4415 Жыл бұрын

what' the problem with it? i nevery used it on 4k so far but fhd always works great.

@strkilla89 Жыл бұрын

@@stefanweilhartner4415 4k blurays are very much a different beast as they have annoying encryption.

@ryan258147 5 ай бұрын

Looks like film-grain-denoise=0 turning off the film-grain synthesis completely. Try set film-grain-denoise=0 and film-grain to any number, the file size are around the same for any film-grain values.

@ahmetrefikeryilmaz4432 6 ай бұрын

I have a 4060 on a laptop and 10 bit slowest preset CQC 22 is fucking 63 fps. It is going to take me, wait for it, 1 hour 35 minutes to encode zack snyder's 4 hour long 4K thingy. This thing is nuts. Meanwhile the iGPU, radeon 780m has another av1 encoder that is at least as good as the nvidia one, and yes I ran two ffmmpeg scripts on them simultaneously, I was getting a little bit CPU bottleneck from that monstrous 7840HS but the performance was roughly 1.8X of either encoder by itself.

@toxotis70 Жыл бұрын

Do we need nvidia 4000 series for this?

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

The best cards for av1 are the Intel arc gpus right now. Even the cheapest is better than the most expensive Nvidia or AMD

@jaredanson Жыл бұрын

You can get an Intel Arc A380 for like $130, sometimes $100-110 on sale.

@lgmnowkondo938 9 ай бұрын

just setting color space WILL NOT properly change an HDR file to SDR...I tried it, and there is clearly an issue with an overly bright and washed out image. There has to be other settings that are required...but I don't know what they are...likely something with dynamic range.

@Blink_____ 8 ай бұрын

you need to apply a transformation matrix to the colorspace. There are ways to do it with ffmpeg but they seem a bit tedious and involve math. A quicker way to do it if you have a Nvidia GPU is to index your HDR source file with DGIndexNV, which has a feature to let you preview an HDR - > SDR conversion. The DGDecNV suite of tools offers a workflow that will let you preview the colorspace conversion in realtime, and then be able to load the needed stuff via Avisynth and some plugins, then you can just feed the Avisynth script to ffmpeg as an input source, and render out to a normal Rec.709 colorspace

@lgmnowkondo938 8 ай бұрын

@@Blink_____ I figured it out, all you need to do is add the -no-hrd switch in hevc and hdr-enabled=0 for av1. The resulting files are indeed correct! But...following this video will result in an incorrect rip. I may not have written the switches properly above, so just consult the documentation for the codec you are using. Either way, it's a simple last step...and also, the resulting 1080p files can be even smaller than if you rip from a 1080p source...which is nice.

@lgmnowkondo938 9 ай бұрын

anyone who thinks they can spot the "detail" that is removed from a denoise, could never tell me what that detail is if doing an a-b comparison.

@dondamon443 9 ай бұрын

I honestly do not like AV1. Granted, it does a good job with file sizes, but the down size is that if you try to play these on most typical blueray players, they just won't work I personally like HEVC 10BIT better. It gives you a faster encode, and the file sizes are reasonable. I've been using Handbrake for several years now and this is my go to file preference. I have converted all of my movies to HEVC X265 10BIT and I couldn't be happier.

@SiimKuusik Жыл бұрын

Star Trek Narration video when?

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

We made a hilarious one in high school.. no idea where it is

@NotJayUU Жыл бұрын

I went to buy a few shirts from epic pants the other day and shipping was $157

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

It does some auto calculations if you are outside of the USA. Where are you based? I can manually check and see if I can send you a coupon to override it

@NotJayUU Жыл бұрын

@@teksyndicate Surrey BC Canada

@Mr_Wh1 Жыл бұрын

11:56 Now the question is; Can you correctly identify one?

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

They are out and about these days... Burning books, calling everything, "woke," and being insecure as fuck.

@Blink_____ 8 ай бұрын

@@teksyndicate This is some next level irony on display right here. Take all my reddit gold sir, you earned it.🏦

@asdfgh-mr2lu Жыл бұрын

These videos are great. Make more videos about handbrake. But please upload them in 4k, KZfaq is compressing the video too much on 1080p , so all of you original grain and AV1 rendered grain differences didn't appear on this video.

@bingobaz6402 10 ай бұрын

First thing, what is Av1?

@teksyndicate 10 ай бұрын

The new algorithm... Open... About 2x as good as h.265 (with the right settings), and requires less overhead to play back and stream... But more to render at this point.

@mgord9518 8 ай бұрын

A "new" video codec that is a lot more efficient than most things being used currently, it's also completely open source

@VladBagrus 8 ай бұрын

film-grain-denoise=0 gives a least +20% to file size and sometimes +180% and double encode speed compared to film-grain-denoise=1.

@jonnypanteloni Жыл бұрын

I'm a very sad man sometimes. Hi Logan. I like your face.

@LordCohliani Жыл бұрын

first

@Fiberton 9 ай бұрын

I hate grain lol

@CubeG1 Жыл бұрын

zero

@jonnypanteloni Жыл бұрын

I stop at 3:15, I don't like that the codec manipulates the footage, and KZfaq has been exhibiting the phenomenon for 4 years at the least.

@0penyafaceup Жыл бұрын

why was i unsubbed ?wtf ???

@khov 10 ай бұрын

i cant be the only one that see no difference between grain or not ? WTF is this video to super picky eyes or something ?

@espiralproductora9414 6 ай бұрын

a large part of this target audience has OCD, so yeah kinda, looks great :D

@bbrunorocha 2 ай бұрын

if you are not working everyday with footage with grain, then it might be hard to spot, for me, working as Cinematographer and Colorist, this tutorial helped a lot, I could clearly see the difference and the AV1 codec gave and impressive result, too bad Vimeo didn't properly support it, got a lot of artifacts, had to use h265 instead and lose a lot of the grain quality

@torguy5763 Жыл бұрын

I wish you would review new tech, this stuff is so boring. I know KZfaq is over saturated with tech content, but it's really who people want to see review tech, too bad.

@teksyndicate Жыл бұрын

This is exactly the opposite of how I feel. New tech is ephemeral... it means nothing in the long run. It's hype and marketing for something that is 3% better than last generation. It makes people constantly desire upgrades they don't need. I will only review stuff if it's something I am getting myself. My top 10 videos are information and tutorials... they don't get as many hits on day 1, but after a year they are still relevant. Then, there's also the fact that tech has always been very boring a depressing to me. I don't care about it. I care about what I can do with it. I care about the games, the creative projects, and stuff like rendering old movies... the tech is only relevant if it enables this. I'm just not an enthusiast.

@matslarsson5988 Жыл бұрын

@@teksyndicateI just want to say, what you are doing is EXACTLY why I come back to your channel year after year while I'm unsubscribing from the ones that ONLY do new stuff. I'm 100% with you. Thanks for the video. I found it extremely interesting!❤

@richardthemagician8991 Жыл бұрын

@Tek Syndicate I feel like if you were to try and keep up with all the latest tech, you'd never have time for anything else. And by the time your video is uploaded, it's already outdated. Not to mention all the nerds that will troll your comments, calling you everything from a sellout to those who feel the need to "correct" you. Sounds like a nightmare.

@torguy5763 Жыл бұрын

Yea I get all that, I'm just the kind of person that enjoys new tech, it excites me, however I don't go and buy it everytime it comes out, I just enjoy watching it, but that's me. You do you, I just miss the tech stuff, I've been watching you since I was in my early teens on Tiger Direct lol.

@torguy5763 Жыл бұрын

@@abowers What makes you happy may not make someone else happy, this is the fact of life, everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I happen to love new tech, so I was pointing out my personal sadness that he has moved away from tech, be it for the better or worse.