I played so many tab targeting MMO that I grew tired of it-Action or a hybrid for me. Guild Wars 2 without floatiness would be a perfect. Ryve nailed it.

I really think judging a game’s combat based on only if it’s Tab Targeting or Action Combat is way too biased. The amount of good combat design, player involvement in skill, and player agency given to the player are the main things that determine how engaging and fun combat is in an MMO imo. Ashes of Creation has been doing a great job so far of making their skills a great mixture of the two, especially seen in the latest Ranger showcase. Excellent work as always, Dr. Bucky!

Pre wrist injury action, it’s just more fun and a higher skill ceiling. Wildstar did action best! Virtek isn’t wrong! Post injury tab is my best option. So yes, Boomer Wizzy gotta tab. Feels bad! 😢

Let's just all be honest here. We don't care about how you target things, we just wanna play this damn game already!

Just to clarify the misunderstanding. Eso is NOT action or tab. It's a hybrid soft lock. As long as you are looking at the enemy player your skill/ ability will hit unless they rule dodge. But if you are looking too far to the left, right, up, or down, you will NOT hit your target. It is a hybrid form like guild wars with some differences. That being said action combat is more fun, interactive, satisfying, and i think it's just better, no if ands or buts about that aspect of it. BUT tab does allow older people to compete, it is easier, and in AOCs case, tab let's you take advantage of ability curve mechanics to hit people around walls and such. So i think action is better, but i think it's best to have both options. I would argue that if someone plays in action everything they do should be stronger. Their abilities hit harder, their heals heal for more, etc. Because action takes more skill they should be rewarded for that skill

I think that both tab target and action are both equally great. I think there is even more potential in both that have not been explored yet. I used to hate tab target systems, but I started to think, maybe it isn't that I hate tab targeting, maybe it is the way that many developers are designing their tab target systems. From how Ashes looks, I think they will take the cake with tab target and show everyone how it is done.

theres a reason why several of the top mmos in 2023 were either hybrid or action if you ask me. while i will agree that full action mmorpgs often end up losing what it means to be a mmo and become solo player rpgs placed in a online open world but its clear that PLENTY like hybrid and if ya ask me, ultimately so long as ashes sticks with its selector system to choose between action which is basically like your more traditional hybrid like guild wars 2 and eso and tab which is more like your old school WoW or runescape, there wont be any real issues ALTHOUGH i do stand by for the action, either you should be able to choose how many abilities you want per bar since they already stated there will be 2 bars of possibley 10 availble (from the sound of it, its ulimtatly not expected that every build will fill out the full 20 abilites as you will be putting extra points into specific abilities to boost them since it very well may end up being more beneficial to have like 10 abilites split between 2 bars or on one bar for action and tab respecitivly as opposed to the full base level 20 but still i think you should be able to chooose to say have each bar only able to have say 5 abilites so you can change it to be 4 bars of 5 which for anyone who has played esepcially eso can vouch, its far easier to hit just 5 buttons as you go through your action combat rather than having to literally lift your hand off your keyboard to hit the 6 and beyond keys.

Im a healer main, so keep that in mind. I might get some hate for this but i think WoW has nailed it for healing. Majority tab, with some action abilities and AoE heals with ground targeting. For dps i would probably prefer action, even for ranged dps. In New World i moved away from healing and ran a bow/spear build.

Tab is easier but action is more satisfying to get a kill with imo as it requires more effort. I do however think the overall systems in a game around the targeting type it uses are influential in deciding "which is better". WildStar's action system while flawed was my favorite of any game. I do agree with Xillin though about the difference between PvE and PvP.

It’s also good to keep in mind that tab targeting is beneficial for people with certain disabilities. Having accessibility baked into a game, especially one with lofty popularity goals, is clutch.

asmons tournament showed just how crazy a tab target pvp game can be and that was just 1v1. its all about decisions not reflexes and was still super high octane

I thought I read a while back when they brought developers over from EQ. They were able to implement the infrastructure of Planetside that did massive MMO FPS combat.

Yes. - 30 Years ago I may have loved action combat, but now I am old and slow. I will use tab targeting whenever possible.

Lets be honest heer, wow is the only games thats actually managed to make full tab target feel really good. And that probably wouldnt be possible without its fully scriptable UI.....

THE ONLY game I've played healer was TERA, it was AMAZING to heal with action combat. Healing with tab targetting is the most boring thing ever... Might as well manage a spreadsheet.

As other people have mentioned its not as black and white. A good implementation of the one you dislike can still be better than a bad implementation of the other you like. There are also several factors to take into consideration. A) Action combat in MMOs is a trend, just like Tab target been a trend forever earlier. Newer =/= better B) A lot of the younger audience have mostly played the most popular MMOs today - which happen to be action combats. C) There are wide varieties how you can implement action and tab target combats. People mostly think of ESO, NW and maybe BDO when it comes to action, and WoW-clones when it comes to tab. Personally Im all for Tab-target combat in traditional MMOs. There are just so many things that are thrown out with the bathwater when it comes to the action combat trend. Often there is root animations that just makes the combat feel clunky. Often there is invulnerable dodge-rolls which makes the game impossible to balance when everyone got the chance to avoid all damage; hella boring. Often you got weapon leveling instead of classes and feat trees. Instead of class kits, trinity, group compositions where you anwer "Paladin" when people ask what you play - you get to answer, simply, "axe. I play axe". On the other hand, a boring wow-clone with the same abilities youve seen the last five games is equally bad. A leveling experience being three abilities until you reach higher levels. Lame. My best tab-target combat is Age of Conan. It's my virgin main MMO from 2008 and I still pop in and play it now and then. Wholly tab target but a fresh and original take on classes and combat. For example, all melee classes had melee combat where you needed to hit arrow-key combinations and land them for full damage. Havent seen a better tab combat since then. Warhammer online was great fun despite being more a clone. My best action combat is hands down Mortal Online 2. Fully directional combat with skyhigh skill ceiling. Theres no comparison to the most popular 3 button-left-click action combats. Great video. Keep it up!

I say tab, action feel chaotic. Played NW quite a bit and as a healer in wars, it was a bit much. I had to cast the AOE heales, the single target heals, but also use my normal attack and hit players with it to heal between cooldowns, so i had to aim in action and in tab at the same time. What it turned into was spam normal attack without trying to aim that much so i dont miss the AoE heals or single target heals. Tab allows me think more and act, not react as much.

it's true. healing in the action format does suck

As long as i can move while using skills im down for anything, though i do heavily lean toward action/hybrid systems.

If ur going to have big wars you need big dmg AoE almost oneshots and tanks need "auras" or areas that give dmg resist and stuff like that so u can counter play or if an unorganized zerg runs into a choke it needs to just die automatically if they have no defensives popped. also tanks with Aoe slow/stuns to stop bomb sqauds, to make the gameplay interesting. Albion online handles large scale fights the best out of any game at the moment i think,

I think the in between is the best right now till the issues Action combat has is solved. Having the hard hitting skills be action, like the Fighter hammer slam being action is a good start. But overall as long as the combat feels good and has skill expression thats all I need. Great Vid as always

Just got stuck on the whole classical Vienna new year's concert while while talking about action versus tabbed targeting. Classical takes too much space when someone is talking at the same time. If you must use a soundtrack, use something that takes less space. I don't need the feels of the classical with discussions and interviews. Imagine a newscast interview with Moonlight sonata and Swan lake blasting the background. Background music has its place, but it's not everyplace all the time for every second.

dude... nothing against it but... do you like rng in combat? my god.. anyway.. I think that action is the most immersive combat you can have.. but I understand that most people prefer the control and accessibility that target has.. so I believe that nowadays it's either hybrid or action.. I don't think there is any more space for 100% tab taget is simply a very old method and I believe most people prefer hybrid or action

I never played Dark Age of Camelot, I would love a game with similar systems, I like PVP on MMO, not necessarily super hardcore. But I love action combat, I loved pre beta New World with the stagger. I never played very much tab target. What do you think ? Would I enjoy Ashes combat or O will be probably disappointed? Thank you for your serious answers

Mixture is a good base, you want to be able to focus a target for information on the mob/player, action is also good due to the fact that you can affect more than one mob makes the game more enjoyable for classes that traditionally could only attack/heal tab targeted mob/player in other MMO's. Action also allows for more player based skill in combat as you can avoid damage over relying on a resist or miss to avoid damage. Have a mixture with only specific abilities/spells doing direct and unavoidable damage that relies on your trained defenses to mitigate the amount of damage you take.

as a Dragon Nest player, definately Action, it gives me a lot of adrenaline and fun especially dodging a very painful skill like using and such on player

Need to marrage the 2 tbh, tab target for main thing but important and high impact skills need to be action/skill shots for example pulling somone to you for example should be action since it can pretty much garantee somone death in large scale combat so there need 2 be counter play in the other side for heavy impact skills same thing with huge hitting attacks

Give me a mix of action/tab I enjoyed ESO combat for many years though it did very much have some flaws. For me, combat is somewhat down the list of importance crafting and economy tops that list, combat just has to be fun for me and I am easily pleased in that regard.

Well black desert online just announced their 300v300 battle for the roses pvp content and that game is 110% an action mmo. Should be chaotic af.

I just want to say how much I appreciate the content creators coming together and doing shows in a group setting. It's such a refreshing thing, very selfless, and builds community. I do enjoy watching Narc and Asmond, but watching these shows like Bespoke, 1v1, Loreforged, & Golden feather Tavern brings more of a group of friends chatting around a campfire feel and I'm all for it. It's why I prefer First Things First with Nick Wright, Chris Broussard, and Kevin Wildes over most other sports shows. They have such a chemistry that feels organic rather than robotic. DR. Burns, Xillian, Kash, Kaos & Lace, Sunny, Jibbs, SticQeno, Ryve & Vhladus Gaming... Thank you for the continuous Copium, and I hope it continues even through launch & years to come.

Monster Hunter style action combat would be better than old school tab target. The issue is that so far it has been impossible to make an MMO with action combat of that quality. The problem with action combat is that it has to be flawless. Even slight jankyness or server lag instantly makes action combat unplayable trash.

as a millenial i need tab target.

As a boomer/Gen X, I resent the title. :D (I know it is a fun/joke title) I don't like tab targeting (my first MMO was Shadowbane) and was happy when new systems came out (either FPS à la Darkfall MMO or hybrid à la ESO). Oh, and many boomers were FPS players :P I am much more a CRPG player, but a bit of modern team FPS à la Squad (*not* Doom). [52 years old] // I forgot to really answer though: I like a hybrid à la ESO (easy aim or soft targeting), including splash healing (AOE), where essentially a player can use movement to evade.

Tab, while i’m not a Boomer, i am prob one of the oldest people who still play MMO’s hard core, i’m 55 years old. some skills require action like a cone heal, but some will require single target .

I hope they find a way to make it possible to use a controller, I have a wrist injury that prevents me from playing mouse/keyboard 😔

For me, this debate forgets about the rpg aspect of mmorpg. Rpg is more than just pretending you are the character you are playing while making funny voices. You are not the focus of the game, your character is and therefore its stats should always trump your skill. Granted there are some exceptions like standing in fire means the player still needs to move their character, but at the end of the day the game is still about that character and their stats. Hit, miss, crit, parry, all have a place in an mmorpg and should be determined by how high the character's stats are not how twitchy the player is

It can be a truly invigorating playing in either combat system. As a healer, the micromanagement aspect of end game PvE leads me to prefer tab targeting (as in WoW, FFXIV, etc) because my brain is actively engaged with maintaining the well-being of the entire raid static; it's exhilarating. Whereas healing in the action-hybrid end game PvE environments (like in ESO) does lead to a feeling satisfaction when done successfully, the actual moment-to-moment engagement doesn't feel as rewarding or involved. In terms of PvP, I think there is a benefit to the action-style of combat as it opens up more variables and leaves more on the table to be fought over and competed against; moment to moment pvp feels more invigorating in an action style combat system, even as a healer, as there are so many more things going on at once that need to be thought over / strategized against due to being up against other players instead of a coded in-game mechanic. Both have their merits, and both have their flaws; I definitely find myself enjoying both styles of combat, but the reality is that like others have said, as long as the combat feels good enough, there are other aspects to a game that take precedence over what combat system a game uses. Cheers for the great content as always Doc

How is this a video without name dropping black desert online? Best combat on the MMO market

Sick and tired of tab targeting over here. It's not 2004 anymore.

have an ability with a 1 second animation isnt different than having a 1 sec universal cooldown

I've always enjoyed tab-target more, definitely in PvE and especially in MMORPGs, with some skill exceptions. I absolutely loathe when major character-defining skills are tied to twitch ability I may not have and will possibly never have. It basically means I can never truly be the character I'm trying to emerse myself into. I'm fine with my Everburning Firebolt of Fury having a good amount of RNG and a decent sized cooldown. What I don't want is to be spending all of combat trying to line up this one skill shot yet never finding the opportunity, or worse, thinking I have it lined up only to watch my firebolt sail harmlessly out into the ether because I didn't lead the target enough or correctly predict a direction change.

Action like in Age of Conan with Executions. I prefer gore and griddy themes 🤷🏼‍♂️

Tab target feels less immersive or something for me, also a lot slower, clicking similar rather then focussing an enemy

Action for movement and camera is perfect, but Tab Target is much better for PVP and PVE🤔🤔🤔

always action before tab,bcs of mobility,movement,also action combat way more dynamic and fun,also harder to play and requires way more skill in fight especially in PvP and group fight,also same for PvE in raids and Dungeons!I really hope that aoc will find the right way and give us really dynamic and a bit faster combat what i want bcs we talk about PvP mmorpg!

I'm 100% with Virtek, Wildstar was amazing. Loved the targetting, actually the whole game, it just didnt get a fair chance i think =(

Wildstar 🙌🏻 Best mmo and best combat ever PERIOD! Best pure tab-target mmo ever is Swtor and best pure action combat ever is Tera PERIOD! Close second is WoW and BDO, that said Wildstar is still the king of all and if that game got re-released my family wouldn’t see me for a year.

What's up Doc? Keep up the good work!

Never stop doing these kinds of videos. They're great overall for the community as well as thought-provoking.

every action brawler game has a lock on feature wtf would an mmo not have that

i always like Xillin and Ryve answers. Great video as always Doc.

I like action tab target point and click

People are looking at this action vs. tab discussion under the wrong light. It's not about preference it's about what does the most. Action is risk and reward, an action fireball is harder to hit but, will do more damage than a tab target one. The fact that this game is a 75/25 split of your choice means if you got good skill with action ability's you will be doing 75 into action because you can do more! If your less skilled in action you will be going 75 into tab and doing less damage/heal/etc. As far as action vs. Tab goes the meta will be, 75 action/25 tab. Approach the question with facts not your feelings.

1:42 you're right Virtek.

Idk dude. After playing in Bdo, Lineage2, Archeage, Aion, wow and some other trash mmos, i can definitely tell, that i dont like action combat and cant disagree more with ppl who said that action is better for pvp. In the beginning, action combat feels good and smooth and its definitely better for short pve sessions and 1v1 pvp, but for long run grind, i felt like I'm ready to cut my hand off after few hours and that smooth grind becomes more like annoyance. For group pvp or mass pvp, action combat is horrendously bad. Its laggy af, removes tactics and all pvps becomes in a mess of skills and melee classes Infront of you. After experiencing BDO sieges and sieges of L2, aion and archeage, i have no hope for action combat in mmos. Even in pve, action combat brakes most interesting concept of mmo - RPG. You can literally take off ur gear and kill high end mobs while being naked. Yes, it will take longer and it will be miserable but you will still kill it. In a tab target game, mobs will just destroy you. I can rant about action combat for like 5 A4 pages more but i will just stop bc nobody cares 😁

i want to try the new ashes of creation... after i see their ingame shop lel

Tab all the way!

Hybrid. Like how GW2 did it, but probably an updated iteration of it. But my god do i hate the boring shizzl in WoW, Lineage 2 and other "Classic" MMOs. Just take the best of ALL worlds and implement them.

Eso can hardly be considered action.

I think there's a place for both, but I personally like tab.

Both

I want tab I need tab, I'm Disabled, I can't keep up with Action.

Love tab targeting

Moba. The perfect top down solution that includes elements of both and whose format is #1 in esports. 6:05 False Albion Online is indeed 300v300 open world and moba also constitutes as action.

*Only 12% of anyone will choose Action.*

All action mmos are dead but bdo...so...