Lol.

Kind of similar to Modern Greek speakers and the NT as with classicists and the NT. I speak modern Greek fluently, and learning Koine Greek was not difficult at all. I was reading entire books of the NT just with my knowledge of modern Greek having never studied ancient Greek before.

Wow, this post is insightful. Thanks!

Technical writing courses teach us to write in short sentences with simple ideas that we then use other short sentences to synthesize the ideas together. So when an author throws 80+ words in a sentence without any sort of pause (no periods, no commas, no middle dots) it's just a bit overwhelming. It very much does come across as the author being reckless/clumsy.

Where can I find Athenaze in the Italian version ?

I must say…. I’m a little surprised to have caused so much controversy here. But I’m delighted to field your questions as best I can. The heart of my statement at 12:54 was aimed specifically at challenging Christians (and really, I’m challenging myself here as well) to examine ourselves to make sure our hearts are in the right place. What is our purpose for learning Greek? To get closer to God’s word and have a more intimate walk with Him through a more intimate understanding of the New Testament text? Or are we just puffed up by this knowledge and looking down on others? The heart of this statement comes from 1 Corinthians 8:1: “πάντες γνῶσιν ἔχομεν. ἡ γνῶσις φυσιοῖ, ἡ δὲ ἀγάπη οἰκοδομεῖ.” The question that I was attempting to address around 15:05 was this: If a Christian is interested in branching out into other Greek literature to expand his or her perspective, then which ancient authors would be especially worthwhile to read? Listening back through the video, I now see that wasn’t exactly what Darryl asked. But that’s the question I was attempting to answer. 😊 The authors that I picked (really, off the top of my head) either provide a useful insight into the pagan worldview and/or philosophy (i.e. Plato, Homer, etc…), or provide addition context around the events and ideas presented in the New Testament (Josephus & Philo). But to address your point, I largely agree. If a someone with only a Biblical Greek background wanted to get into classical Greek texts to broaden their 'register' as you say, they still have some additional work to get there. But we should not discount that what this person has already learned is still applicable. My recommendation to such a person would be to: 1.) Pick up a copy of Athenaze, including the Italian version. 2.) Read through the stories in Athenaze, picking up necessary vocabulary as you go, and reviewing the grammar to cement concepts and fill in any gaps or holes. 3.) Pick up a relatively easy classical Greek text and work through that as a bridge to getting into harder material. I suppose Xenophon’s Anabasis would be the obvious answer here…. The text isn’t overly difficult and it’s a fun read. But for the Christian wanting to broaden his or her cultural or philosophical perspective, I’m not sure Anabasis adds very much. Perhaps instead we could look at an easy and relatively short dialog from Plato. Apology might not be too bad. For what it’s worth, Athenaze was my textbook when first starting out with Classical Greek , and we worked all the way through both books. The stories in Athenaze, though made up, are outstanding. And they give the student an excellent window into the world of 5th century B.C. Athens. However, as a student, I struggled with Athenaze’s piecemeal, almost haphazard introduction of grammar concepts in the book. Yes, it’s thorough. But as a student, I felt it was disorganized, and I struggled to see the grammatical forest through all of the individual trees. Some years later, I ended up helping a student through Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek. I was stunned at how organized, clear, and concise the grammar presentation was in Mounce’s textbook. Yes it’s true: There are some grammar concepts that Mounce either doesn’t cover, or doesn’t cover as adequately as I think he should. But in my view, as a starting grammar for a beginning Greek student, Classical Greek has no equal to this textbook. And yes, I would love to see Darryl do a review of Athenaze. Anyway, I hope this helps to clarify my comments. Blessings to you!

@@ksnunema Thanks for the helpful clarification. To be fair, since the agenda of the interview was to demonstrate why people do not NEED Classical Greek to learn Biblical Greek (as opposed to weighing the pros and cons) it skewed the conversation towards a negative/critical outlook on Classical Greek. I honestly don’t think learning Classical or Homeric Greek should incline anyone to look down on others or to “imagine that they know something” (per 1 Cor 8:1-2). Again, one could invoke that verse to cast aspersions on all kinds of intellectual endeavors, including learning Biblical Greek. I think there’s a lot of be said for simply fostering a love of knowledge. And, personally, I find that the more Greek I learn, the clearer it is how much left there is to learn. I can sympathize with your criticisms of Athenaze. My recommendation for students using Athenaze is to complete ALL of the workbooks (the English & Italian workbooks have different exercises), along with the Itallian “Quaderno” volumes and the additional reading material in the Ἐφόδιον volumes. I didn’t move on to the next chapter until I’d finished corresponding workbook exercises for a given chapter. In terms of Plato, Beetham’s “Learning Greek with Plato” is helpful, along with Major & Roberts' “Plato, A Transitional Reader”. Shelmerdine’s “Introduction to Greek” is a decent primer for Attic. And Pharr’s “Homeric Greek” is essential for Homer, along with O'Neil & Winters' "Homer, A Transitional Reader".

(Mounce? I’ll pretend I didn’t come upon any of that.) Perhaps the most popular textbook of Attic Greek at universities, well suited for independent study, is: _From Alpha to Omega: A Beginning Course in Classical Greek._ By Anne H. Groton. 4th ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013. Helpful companion books are: _From Alpha to Omega: Ancillary Exercises._ By Jon Bruss. 2nd ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013. _Forty-Six Stories in Classical Greek._ Edited by Anne H. Groton and James M. May. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2014. (Additional readings are matched to lessons from the textbook.) Groton’s is a traditional and very detailed approach. She has become something of the Greek Wheelock, so famous for learning Latin. For historical and cultural background, the following are standard introductions: Pomeroy, Sarah B., et al. _Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History._ 4th ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2018. Boatwright, Mary T., et al. _The Romans: From Village to Empire; A History of Rome from Earliest Times to the End of the Western Empire._ 2nd ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012. Some prose translation is necessary to solidify and develop this knowledge and these skills, once acquired. The usual text is Plato’s _Apology._ I recommend the following: _Plato's “Apology of Socrates”: A Commentary._ Edited by Paul Allen Miller and Charles Platter. Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture 36. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 2010. (Greek text with substantial vocabulary and commentary.) _Plato and Xenophon: Apologies of Socrates._ Edited by Nicholas Denyer. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (Greek text with commentary.) Alternatively, the more intrepid may prefer to read Plato’s _Symposium,_ one of the towering masterpieces of world literature and philosophy, and certainly highly influential within Christianity. I recommend the following texts: _Plato's “Symposium”: Greek Text with Facing Vocabulary and Commentary._ Edited by Geoffrey Steadman. Self-published, 2009. Last revised September 2014. (While not the standard text used, the facing vocabulary renders it most useful for the beginning or independent student.) _Plato: “Symposium.”_ Edited by Kenneth Dover. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1980. (For additional and deeper commentary. This is the usual commentary used, but without vocabulary.) I recommend using the following translation aids for use after the introductory textbook and companion books: _An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon._ New York: Oxford University Press, 1889. (This is the Greek lexicon primarily used by undergraduate classics students in their daily coursework. It also works for the NT. The LSJ may be consulted for more depth, variously available online.) _Greek Grammar._ Edited by Herbert Weir Smyth. Revised by Gordon M. Messing. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1956. (This is the standard grammar in English.) _The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek._ Edited by Evert van Emde Boas, Albert Rijksbaron, Luuk Huitink, and Mathieu de Bakker. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (An important update.) _All the Greek Verbs._ By N. Marinone. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. (Contains the vast majority of verb forms one might find oneself puzzling over in the middle of the night, clearly identified in alphabetical order. Very helpful to beginning students.) Remarkably helpful and handy, including for the NT, is Langenscheidt’s pocket “Classical Greek” dictionary, if you can find a copy. Be sure to avoid their Modern Greek dictionary. (Oxford publishes a roughly analogous pocket dictionary, less sturdily bound.) For those wishing to read classical authors further, generally reliable text-with-commentary series include the Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics, the Cambridge Classical Texts and Commentaries, and the Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture. Bristol Classical Press publishes an extensive Greek Texts series (along with a Latin Texts one) with commentary. Oxford University Press also publishes two excellent series: outstanding and authoritative editions with commentary on Aristophanes in their Clarendon Paperbacks series; and their text-with-commentary (and at least sometimes facing translation) series on an eclectic assortment of authors and works, Aris and Phillips Classical Texts. Geoffrey Steadman, cited above, provides editions of a number of classic works, with facing vocabulary and commentary.

@@choreologychannel I apologize for the slow reply. Thank you for the very helpful suggestions. I’m already familiar with Pharr. This is the textbook that we used when reading through Book 1 of the Illiad. I’ve also come across “Plato, a Transitional Reader”, and you’re right - that would be a very good text to use. I’m unfamiliar with “Learning Greek with Plato”. I’ll check it out. For what it’s worth, I’m definitely not anti-classical Greek. My Greek New Testament is littered with hand-written quotations from Plato and other classical writers… even from the Illiad and Odyssey. The main question that I’m trying to explore is…. For the Christian who is primarily interested in Greek for the purposes of reading the New Testament, where do you start? It seems to me that the Biblical Greek texts are (for the most part) fairly straightforward and accessible, and there are very good Greek grammars for Biblical Greek. So it makes sense to start there, and then begin to branch out into other areas. I say this with no particular axe to grind. I started with Classical Greek first. That’s my background, and I love ancient Greek literature, history, and culture. Further, a background in classical Greek certainly offers the tools necessary to tackle Biblical Greek as well, with some very minor adjustments. However, I believe it can work the other way too. Darryl has some great students in his program who have some excellent ability and background, who started with Biblical Greek.

@@Steve-hu9gw Thank you for your suggestions as well. This is an excellent selection of texts. I have many of these books, but not all. And of course, Smyth is an absolute must for any classicist. :) You must run in different circles than I do. Although I’ve heard of From Alpha to Omega, I had no idea it was in the running for the top spot. Almost everyone I deal with these days increasingly promotes Athenaze, especially coupled with the Italian version, as a kind of intuitive, almost- living-language approach to learning Greek. I can’t say that I entirely agree. However, I understand why they land there. From Alpha to Omega is definitely a big step up from Athenaze in terms of organized grammar presentation. What it lacks is a lot of reading exercises, which is where Athenaze's strength lies. But perhaps From Alpha to Omega has these in the exercise book, which I don’t have.

That's an interesting comment. I'm trying to figure out which way to go before driving in. have been leaning towards studying attic first, but one question I have is whether or not I really needed to become significantly proficient at attic for it to be of any real help to me in learning koine. I don't mind putting in significant time and work, but I sort of had this idea in my head that maybe I could learn attic up to maybe just a basic proficiency and then move on the koine. That sounds like what you did, right? In other words I'm not really interested in spending several years mastering attic before I jump into koine (but neither am I looking to put in low effort and take a shortcut). Am I thinking right on this?

At university I got to attend a party at a sorority and while standing in their main hall by a couple of friends with a drink in my hand I noticed the sorority motto on the wall -- written in Greek of course -- and I read it and then translated it out loud. I got pounced on by a half dozen sorority gals, one exclaiming, "How do you know our motto? That's secret!" I stared at her for a couple of seconds and then laughed and said, "If it's secret, why is it written on your wall?" "But it's in Greek!!" she practically screeched. I shook my head and told her, "When fraternities and sororities first started every member could read Greek. Those mottoes weren't meant to be secret, they were intended to be read by scholars." That night before I made it out of there a dozen fraternity guys surrounded me and asked if I could translate all the other sorority mottos. So over the next couple of weeks guys intercepted me with what they'd copied from sorority hall walls. I don't know if they got all of them, but they got enough that it seemed that every sorority gal on campus knew who I was and hated on me. I just told them every time, "If it's supposed to be secret, don't write it on your wall".

Latin is closer to modern European languages (except maybe Greek) and uses the same alphabet, also it introduces archaic grammar structures in a softer way, that's why kids should start there. An adult with an Anglo-Saxon/Germanic background can dive straight into Greek though.

Hello Viktor. As for pronunciation, there are basically 3 options: Erasmian Pronunciation, Modern Greek pronunciation, or some sort of Reconstructed pronunciation. There are some factors that may play into which pronunciation system that you chose, and there are people out there who will argue passionately about which pronunciation system is the best. However, you can be successful regardless of which pronunciation system you chose. As for how you should proceed..... It's hard to learn Greek as a solitary student, although certainly possible if you are disciplined and you have a good textbook. But it's much easier to have a community. If you have the means, I recommend Biblical Mastery Academy, which is, by far, the best program I've found for Biblical Greek. www.biblicalmastery.academy/. If you don't have the means for that, at very least get yourself a good Greek grammar textbook + workbook and work your way through that. I can recommend some options if you are interested.

Greek orthodox Christian use the New Testament in church 2000 years in koine never use erasmius way

Is patristic Greek much different from Josephus or Philo's Greek?

@@stevenv6463 In general, Josephus and Philo are much more difficult. I think one should read a couple Plato dialogs before taking on Philo. There are, however, patristic writers that are more advanced.

@@Aaron_Wells Difficult as in more classical and less Koine?

@@stevenv6463 more Attic, much more optative mood, more difficult vocabulary, harder syntax, more ellipsis, etc. Remember that Philo and Josephus were attempting to prove their writing was every bit as eloquent as the revered classical Greek authors.

We focus learning Greek for the purpose of reading the Greek New Testament and Septuagint first and also the Apostolic Fathers. There are lots of Koine texts available, both religious and non-religious texts, including Philo and Josephus, but many more. Marcus Aurelius even wrote his Meditations in Greek!

Utter nonsense. I got my degree in classics before my degree in biblical studies. I have yet to crack open a grammar of “biblical Greek” and hardly ever look at BDAG. None of it prevented me from translating circles around my colleagues and classmates in biblical studies, and in a tiny fraction of the time. That’s the simple truth of the matter. The only reason to go via and stick with Koine is a desire to not spend time on anything but the NT. That’s fine, but you will have a harder time at translation than you otherwise would have, until you’ve essentially memorized all the text. So it’s a trade-off. I knew a very famous NT scholar who would make all his advisees take the first two years of Greek offered in the classics department no matter how much Koine they had already had. They always found it to be a sort of boot camp, even in first-year Attic, a phenomenon that always amazed me. Shouldn’t they have had a considerable advantage, having already learned some basics? Btw, no one who already has Attic is made to take any introduction to Koine or “biblical” Greek in biblical studies departments. No one even whispered any such thing within earshot of me.

@@Steve-hu9gw thanks for the reply, Steve. I was just commenting on Carson’s comment. I personally wouldn’t know if Attic Greek helps understand Koine. I’m only interested in NT Greek studies.

@@drbill-r9f, his comment is ludicrous. To pretend that the words used in the NT suddenly materialized there, ignoring everything the LSJ has to say about their broader and often more basic and fundamental contexts, is to violently rip those words out of the language in which they exist and have their meaning.

Thanks for watching and for your support!

A little. A bit like knowing modern English prepares you to read Shakespeare or Chaucer, but there is perhaps more distance between Koine and modern Greek. Thanks for asking!

Not just a little bit, but absolutely knowing modern Greek helps with koine. I am semi fluent in Modern Greek and I can pick up a koine NT and understand the majority of it and I have never studied any ancient Greek. Obviously I plan on studying ancient one day (probably will start with Homeric) but knowing MG will definitely suffice for having a great foundation of understanding of NT Greek. Plus you can actually talk to people, which is the main objective of learning a language.

Easy

@@bma not a little but easy one reading modern greek csn understand koine of the New testament actually in the greek orthodox church koine greek is used world wide not modern greek 2000 years now

Not only it helps, but if you know modern Greek, but to know them well, you can read almost full the text of New Testament. It's just a matter of some practice. Don't listen what different peaple say on yt, that they are supposed "experts"

I am doing Greek in Dublingo while mainly doing Koine. Yes, I find quite a number of words common to these two variations of Greek.

@@qiaochan both koine, ancient, modern,etc is the same hellenic language evolved

Matthew 28:17 καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν, οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν. προσεκύνησαν means "they worshipped".

Also, John 9:38, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9. Have great day!

Προσκυνησις can be use as worship or honor in greek

@@ballsyougothacked5650 actually the word in greek can mean worship but it also means just to honor

How then read the original language of the New Testament

A heretic

@@user-pj7sq7ce1fHow so?

The God of the Christians is the God of Israel, the God of the covenants and the God of the Jewish patriarchs and prophets. Jesus was a Jew. He confirmed the message of the prophets and counted the “old” testament, the Jewish Tanak, as inspired, unbreakable scripture, as did his disciples,the first Christians, who were also Jews. All but 1 of the authors of the New Testament (Luke) were Jews. When Paul, a Jewish Pharisee who authored most of the NT, was put on trial he declared that he was on trial “for the hope of Israel” (Jesus the promised Messiah). Before it was called Christianity it was called “the Way” and was simply considered a sect of Judaism that had embraced the promised Jewish Messiah. The first Christians even had to decide whether non Jews could even come to faith in their Messiah without becoming Jews. That is a major theme in the book of Acts. It wasn’t until Gentile Christians began to multiply and Christianity spread across the Roman Empire and after the Jews were scattered after the destruction of the temple in 70ad that Christianity started to be considered something separate from Judaism. Then the debate became whether Jews could become Christians! This is also when you began to see a growing hatred of Jews in the church and in the writings of the church fathers, which continued off and on for centuries. This is what you refer to as the “traditional Christian background”. But antisemitic theology and a predominantly Gentile church do not change the fact that what we call Christianity is simply the acceptance of the God of Israel and the entering into the eternal covenant promised to Israel, revealed and established in the person and work of Israel’s Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth. And when he returns he will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, as promised in the both the Hebrew Bible and the epistles of the New Testament. You will want to be identified with the Jews in that day! This doesn’t discount our European cultural inheritance, but our faith and worldview are/should be fundamentally Hebraic, not Greek. Give Romans chapters 9-11 a close reading