James said that consumers need to learn how to read geometry tables. As a future video, could we get james' guide to geometry tables? :)

The Specialized Aethos costs 5.200 Euro for the Comp version with a 105. The S-Works version costs around 15.000. How could this even remotely be considered a "bike for the people" in the first place?

Love the honesty, which is becoming increasingly hard to come by in the world of cycling. Agree with a lot of these - there's so much marketing jarg and over-engeneered nonsense that's simply not needed. A steel disc brake bike with decent clearance for larger tyres is the perfect bike because it can do the vast majority of things for the vast majority.

Love it when James activates rage mode

James is a real watch guy with the dime piece frog watch. 🤝

I agree about those rear suspension. Systems built into the frame - they look like a problem waiting to happen. However, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the Redshift shockstop post. The mk1 version with the springs is very easily tunable, and it irons out the more serious bumps that my 35mm tyres don't. Without any noticeable bobbing. It's great for gravel and the crap, badly cracked concrete roads i ride. If I ever wanted to race, I could pull it off and stick on a lighter regular post. Seems like the perfect compromise to me. Cheers

there is a bit more $topping the Aetho$ from being a "bike of the people" than the geometry.

The bike sizing thing is so true. I'm 195cm, which puts me in the top 1% of the UK population for height, yet I ride a large Canyon frame. There are two sizes above that!

The thing with Brooks **leather** saddles is that they've got incredibly short rails, and were designed back in the time when angles were more slack, and all seatposts had setback. If your bike has steep angles, and you want a very specific seatpost, you better know that the sizing and fit is bang-on. If you have a bike, where all that is bang-on, you will be quite happy with your durable flexy saddle, even for all day riding, but it can easily go either way. When you go to the Cambrium rubber saddles, you've got a lot more room for adjustment, but you better hope the shape and flex of them is exactly what you like.

I have a Brooks B17 Special on my touring bike the bars are level with the seat and its bliss, and Brooks C17 curve (rubber) on my gravel bike and it just works .

"Thumbs like Edward Scissorhands"... gold! Haha, love this guy and stoked you have him on the channel from time to time.

Regarding long reach handlebars, all the "avoid" handlebars could actually be good handlebars to buy for fixed gear riders which is pretty funny. Since they don't usually use STIs or brake levers with hoods the longer reach on the handlebars make them easier to hold

Love these videos; thanks James and Francis. I too would like to see a fitting that then translates to a geometry table. I have several bikes (touring, gravel, road), and have had several bike fittings, but couldn’t tell you anything about what geometry fits me for any of my bikes.

Great points! It’s taken me 50 years as an avid recreational cyclist to figure out what makes one bike fit and be fast and fun and others to just never feel right. More money does not mean a better fit and more speed. Your point about if you need flat bars on your gravel bike, you’re probably on the wrong bike, is spot on.

Perhaps, the most important section was James' commentary on *_over-simplification_*_ of stack & reach_ measurements - very helpful

There is/was a perfect execution of the Specialized Aethos concept--the second-generation Scott CR-1, ca. 2008-2015. Crisp handling, a snappy ride that didn't beat you up, a geometry that was easy to fit to different kinds of riders, and it was easy to work on. As for Specialized shoes, thank you for bringing them up. The built-in varus wedge led to atrophy of my first metatarsals, crowding of the other four toes as the foot slid into the anterior side of the shoe, and calf and ankle cramping from applying force to a poorly supported foot. A flat but supportive shoe corrected this.

I would love to see you address the issue of crank length. Generally I find crank length to be excessive on almost every bike. It's rare to find anything below 170 mm except on S or XS frames.

Yes its true, I learned a lot from Sir. James now riding my RB for 100 k no body pain specialy my nee.... Thanks for the technique...Sir. James your a badass teacher 😊😊😊❤.

Loving the podcast and hearing you in longer form content!

I think Francis rides a size named 52 addict RC which has a 540 effective top tube length. That is hardly small regardless of whatever its called.

My bicycle fitting pet peeve are road/gravel bicycle brake levers with integral master cylinders for hydraulic disc brakes. This increases the reach of the brake lever body, making it difficult to find a position where it's comfortable to ride on both the hoods and the drops. You're either too stretched out when riding the hoods or too cramped when riding the drops.

James' watch is so incredibly based it's crazy

I don’t have the spring one but I love my Brooks B17

Again, excellent content! Thank You James 🙏

I absolutely love the Trek decouplers they are expensive but they are phenomenal.

I've used both the Brooks B17 carved and C17 (cambium) carved on my fixed gear as well as my two gravel bikes, all of which have a saddle to bar drop of around 34 mm. I like both saddles, but the B17 (aka the leather one) is easily the most comfortable saddle I've used. Maybe it's because my saddle to bar drop is rather shallow, but it just works. At one point it did become more uncomfortable once the leather started to sag, but tightening the screw on the bottom made it super comfortable again.

The Trek VCLS handlebar being long reach makes so much sense! I've a 58 Trek and I get bad neck and shoulder pain, feel like I've to stretch too far. Other similar sizes frames I had no such issue.

Agree about frame sizing. Absolutely crucial to try before you buy. Also, aside from bike frames, cycling clothing manufacturers need to address their flawed sizing structures too. They seem to assume that height is somehow proportional to how unfit you are. That the taller you are, the fatter you must therefore be. Nightmare for people 6ft 2" + who have the physique of a healthy eating regular cyclist. To me that just seems like a flawed and somewhat paradoxical logic in sizing structure. I'm sure Jimmy will have opinions on this but for us tall skinny guys it's kind of frustrating. The amount of money I've wasted on kit over the years bears not thinking about.

I love my aethos. The stack height is greater on the aethos than the tarmac sl7 making it more relaxed.

Just use a shorter stem for long reach bars. Mine are 104mm so I swapped the 100mm stem for an 80mm stem. I like the tops being closer when climbing and the longer reach bars give me that greater differential between hoods and tops.

Want another Francis, Lawrence, James trip! The best!

Love my long reach handlebars....they are a necessity if you are equipped with long arms and big hands.

At the beginning of the season I bought a specialized SL7 shoe, got them snug for racing crits. I love them and they feel super stiff. Well a couple months later and now I probably have a bunion (which can only be corrected by surgery... awesome!) forming under my pinky toe knuckle joint. So now I'm back to riding my 5 year old shimano shoes.

My first road bike had Tornay shifters. They were ok for my first century ride, but then I discovered 105 and the rest is history!

Giant Contact SL OD2 Stem from 70 to 130mm in 10mm increments, 50 quid, available online or off the peg in Cadence shops. Sorted the reach on my Canyon. Not a problem.

glad i'm flexible enough to be riding an aethos...learnt something about the spesh shoes i didn't know, thanks....

James, so nice to have you back ❤ I never understood anatomic handlebars - who has anatomy like that? Spec shoes - had one pair, never again. As for an Aethos with Roubaix geometry, its why I still ride my 2011 Roubaix, with untrendy rim brakes, goofy Zertz inserts, 30mm tire clearance (now tubeless) included. Very comfy, and amortizing upgrade costs over time, its affordable, fit for my purpose.

All right James thank so much you for the common sense, science backed, and experience you bring to bikes and bike fitting. Please please help us in the states that are having difficulty finding a bike fitter. Most here use the Retul and of course are in Specilized shops or trek shops. Help us to be able to look at a bike fitter online and make an educated decision. I have watched all of your videos, and have been educated thank you. How does someone like me look a website and make a decision? These fitters are at least 1 hour and several hours away and $400. I’m riding an American road bike Klein stage 1997 that I know is too big, but causes minor issues on 1 to 2 hour rides. I would like to get a bike that is properly sized. Thanks and I love your channel. Dwight, from Louisiana

James, just love the passion! 👍🤣

Hi you're right about specialized shoes. Now you say it, this summer I wore specialized shoes for 9 days all day long for an ultra cycling event and got a callus on one of my external toes (the one usually resting upfront.

The alternative to the aethos is the winspace slc. and at half the price. Also the cube agree c62. endurance focused aero bike

The thing with Brooks saddles is that they are amazing when you're riding in an upright position. I have one on my city bike for a decade now and it just works perfectly. That's the one with a flat bar with gigantic sweep and not a bike where you need a fit on. Coming from this I did the mistake to get an Brooks C17 when I got my first serious bike just to quickly discover that it's in the way in aggressive riding positions. I got a Supacaz Scorch as a replacement and I do love this saddle so much! Speaking about wide dropbars for more control : there is this rare breed of people that like to ride dropbar mountain bikes for bikepacking on hiking trails and/or off-road ultras where they make a lot of sense. I started looking for a gravel bike, just to realise that gravel is boring and I want to ride the most remote trails possible. (If you aim to ride really remote trails swiftly, don't make the mistake to buy a Gravel bike, most of them are seriously undergeared. Get a dropbar mountain bike or build your own starting with mountain bike frame and cassette.)

I love my Sora 8 speed with the thumb lever.

I was about to go on a tirade because I LOVE Brooks saddles, but that was honestly a good assessment. Everyone I've met that said they didn't like Brooks saddles had their seat post 2 feet higher than their handlebars lol. Sounds crazy, but everyone's butt is different.

Chapter about flat bars! I wish I had seen it before I bought my current mountain bike just because of its looks and I ride it exclusively in the city on roads. Numbness, pins and needles, wrist pain - I get all of that every single ride and it made me begin question if I have the right bike for my case...thanks for confirming I indeed have a wrong bike! Can't wait to get a gravel bike and, hopefully, have better riding experience.

I have a Brooks saddle but it is on my flat bar, upright, heavy duty touring bike. I wouldn't dream of using it on my gravel bike which has a Prologo saddle. Both are comfy for their intended use and both allow me to clock up the miles in comfort. I had a bike fit when I bought my gravel bike(Ribble CGR 725) and the guy put wedges under my Cleats. This worked for me as I have the problem you described (I knew this before I went but wanted to know if he spotted it - he did!). I then tried the Spcialised shoes - they were excruciating. I would love to know who has feet that narrow and deformed! Great video - lots of common sense.

I brought my canyon endurace 4 years ago, I am 5’9” mature 50+, I was convinced I was a medium size but the canyon chart said I was a small, I brought the small,for my me it was a massive difference coming from a M/L TCR which was recommended for me by local bike shop who just looked me up and down and said yeah that’ll fit.

Great video, thanks@!

I'm enamoured by the clean workshop and high quality tools on display.

Stack and reach has evolved into every bike but makes more sense with mountain bikes where it came from . Once you stand on the pedals and the seat is out of the way the saddle and seat tube angle have no relevance.

thanks for mentioning the spezialised shoes, i just got those. i will check how my bones are and then see which shoes are the best

Have often wondered James' take on the Brooks saddles!

Love and miss James on this channel. been way too long.

Guilty on the long reach bars, with the flat section in the drops. If I'm looking for a frame, I ignore frame sizes, and grab a frame with 73x73 angles, and a 58cm virtual top tube. (188cm tall, with shorter legs) I use a 13cm stem now, but used a 14, when I was racing (and was more flexible)

Last year I nearly went nuts trying to figure out which size of each bike I was considering I needed to look for. When you're trying to buy a bike and you go through websites of stores in your location its a madhouse really. Each time you have to go to each manufacturers website and check their size charts. I made the right decision in the end and managed to get the new bike to fit me nicely I believe by nothing more than getting a new stem 10 mm shorter. But the way manufacturers size their bikes and the way bike stores present this sizing info is very confusing.

Great vid What about top 10 off shelf road bike and same for gravel….

Thanks! Not so related to this video. What is the difference between Lake CX332 and CX403, besides the heat moldable heel on the former?

How mental is frame size scaling "geometry" standard that assumes the same wheel size for a 2 m. guy to a 1,60 m. so the distorted mass distribution (wheels + extra frame) that is forced to load relatively shorter people affects the overall motion and body position, are we so dumb or is that in more than a century nobody really cared that much about cycling industry?

I have a Brooks B17 on my touring bike and it’s by far the best saddle I’ve ever used. Can we get a video on mountain bike bike fitting please ?

Agree about the Aethos. If it was the same geometry as the new Allez (now more of an endurance geometry), it might be better

So there was a guy at Unbound this weekend on a hardtail MTB with super wide bars that he had grafted drop bar ends onto. The whole rig was literally 3ft wide. Would have snapped a pic but I was too tired from scraping mud and hike a biking

With you all the way until 13:28. In USA, the mean clothing size is XL and the range to cover 90+ % of the population is Medium through XXXL. Bike sizes of small fitting the smallest 25 % of population, medium fitting middle 50 %, and large or xtra large fitting top 25 % makes more sense than clothing sizes.

What about Brooks Cambium saddles for long distance on/off/road cycling on a gravel bike?

I'll be editing this comment to talk about some points in the video I want to discuss -I'm a long reach bar enjoyer. Well, I guess I just managed to fit my self to long reach handlebars but I'd probably still prefer short reach ones but I was planning on getting short reach bars at one point but my position ended up being so dialed I kept the bars I had 80mm reach -I always find myself thinking about James' rant on the majority of bikes being too long and too low. A lot of the times when I fit people, the bikes are usually too long and too high, or too short but still too high. I like to fit people to stems usually around the 110-130mm range and it almost always ends up being -17. There seems to be a shortage of good geometries like the Tarmacs, Supersixes, Vanyars, so almost everyone I know (except people who ride the frames I cited for example and some others) have -17 stems slammed and it's still too high. If anything I find people that need the taller geometry are part of the minority I only know my brother and probably some others I forget to talk about. Can't comment on the Aethos geometry though lol I don't have experience with that bike. -Specialized shoes. James hates it so much but when I bought me a pair of Specialized Expert shoes they didn't have that uneven toebox that he often talks about. In fact, with the same insole (a medium high arch insole because my feet aren't flat) it feels really similar except the fact that the RC3 has a not so stiff sole and the expert has a full carbon one.

Agree about the brooks saddle. Controversial though.

It Doesn't matter how steep seat tube angle is. Horizontal distance between saddle and BB is determined by length of legs and feet. Slacker angle is negated with seatpost without setback and vice versa. Thus you can simply orientate by stack and reach. Everything other can be compansated with stem and handlebars.

I want to book a fit! Now I just need to hop a plane across the pond.

Lovee\ the Brooks saddle on my mtb, hate the brooks saddle on my road, and gravel bikes.

Long reach handlbars with a short stem provide a relief from drops, hoods to the tops, for recreation and touring.

Brooks leather saddles are explicitly designed for a slight nose up position AND for level saddle and bars, so it's no wonder people trying to put them on racy bikes have pain

This was an interesting video, and I understand it's a part 2. I'd like to see the first one. Anyone know where it is?

That frog watch is Epic!!!

Is James on drugs? The Aethos starts at about £5000 which is definitely not a bike for the people

Now I know why my feet started hurting after moving to Specialized shoes. Not something I noticed straight away, but after a few months of increased fitness and power my feet started killing me. I wish this was something that was stated upfront when buying the shoes.

I'd like to know James' thoughts (rants?) on the new Specialized Diverge. I imagine that much rear suspension will have huge ramifications for bike fit - your position on the bike will be constantly changing, significantly...

i have a shimano claris groupset on my road bike, really like it

Chapeau James & Cade Media 👏👏👏

13:50 Would appreciate a specific video on how to read geometry tables from a consumer perspective.

I think stack and reach are excellent numbers to look at in mountainbikes, where the handling characteristics off saddle are possibly even more important than seated position ergonomics in certain disciplines. For road/gravel bike the saddle position needs to be included but there isn't standardized way to give meaningful headtube lenght. Is it linear, horizontal, horizontal accommodating seat post angle and at what height. And let's say there are two bikes with effectively same ass to palm distance achievable with adjustments, but one has BB 2cm further forward than other, WTF do I do then

Do you have any opinion on Race bis endurance bikes? I‘m currently looking for a new bike and it seems either super racy or rather endurance oriented with lots of comfort…

Re the Aethos: I think the bike you are really asking for is the Crux. It has all the features of the Aethos but with the Allroad/endurance geometry most people really need and want.

loving the frog watch 🐸

Crux bike of the people James

Entertaining and informative. Thanks :D

In regards to bike sizes, does the riders inseam figure into the size of their future bike ❓ I understand that you can rise the saddle up, but does having the saddle very high change stability ❓Or should you increase bike to accommodate the riders leg length ❓

I have a tourney type system on my old giant defy (think 2011). I'm just cycling for fun/exercise but I like it. My biggest gripe with the cycling industry is over paralysis of everything. I shouldn't be left scratching my head trying to find a new bottom bracket.

I'm currently converting my gravel bike to a commuter/city bike by throwing on a riser flat bar. Shorter reach, more upright position... I'm stoked about it!

Well done James.

Loving the Triban love ❤

I use the long reach 3t handlebars because allow enough space for my hands to rest comfortably and not cause numbness like shorter reach bars I have relative large hands, the shape of the lever housing and 25+ years of being a truck mechanic which takes a toll on your hands with all the hammering, wrench turning and holding onto impact guns

My Cannondale tandem has a straight 1.5" stem. I nearly got a custom stem (or alternatively a custom tandem fork with tapered steerer) until I found I unicorn stem made by Cannondale a few years earlier. I'll never have another stem option on that bike.

James -- that watch is epic

Bike fit James. Great bike fitter. Not an engineer. Isospeed is a pretty clever solution. Don’t make the tire do all the suspension work.

Bar reach - as a general recommendation on the assumption that the reach for most folk is too long is reasonable. But, like all generalizations it fails in specific cases. I’ve got 3 drop bar bikes and the bars are 46, 42 and 39. The stem lengths vary from 50 to 100, and all the bikes effective reach is similar. Why? Different applications. I like wider bars on drop bar mtbs and gravel bikes, my road bike fits James’s recommendation. Short reach bar, narrower bars and a traditional stem length. My gravel bike has longer reach bars, and this gives me more hand positions and different reaches for long days at slower speeds. Short reach bars mean you are generally riding the hoods, great for all day on a road bike but not necessarily ideal on off road drop bar bikes. The key is getting the fit right, if you do the reach of the bar is not really critical.

Please make a video about flatbar fitting

i like the lower reach to be long i find it more comfortable to be in the drops

Just checked the geometry SL7 vs Aethos. They are not the same, but close. 54cm - Stack 534mm vs 544mm and Reach 387mm vs 384mm

Love these vids

I've sized many bikes for my friends and even I have no idea how to read geometry tables, can you make a video on that?

Just rebuilt my left 20 year old Campy Centaur Ergoshifter, which can be almost completely taken apart. Didn't really have to as it was working ok. I just wanted to clean it up and regrease it to make shifting a bit smoother and perhaps extend its life a bit. I'm debating whether to do the same on the right one as I did this some years ago. I probably will, because, well, I can. Takes all of 30-60 minutes to take apart, clean, regrease and rebuild, IF you know what you're doing. If not, it'll take the better part of a day, most of it spent figuring out how they come apart and fit back together. My point is, better than Shimano in this respect.