@@HeatherHolt Yes, I thought it was pretty neat collection of scenes that almost feels like a movie. Like how the critics described the Breaking Bad finale, it's "satisfying" but also a bit more deserved, since Jesse is far more sympathetic. It's definitely more of a "coda" to the series, as opposed to a logical ending. It's "fan service", which doesn't have to mean that it's bad. It's entertaining enough, not essential though.

Well said 👌 they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

@@MacabreStorytelling totaly agree Walt was a villian in the end and should have stayed that way. since thats what the show was building up to. For 4 seasons

@@MacabreStorytelling No, Breaking Bad actually told a story with an actual beginning, middle and end. Unlike the Sopranos which had no over all plot and an "ending" that only served to show how meaningless the entire show actually was.

Agreed it sounds like this guy just wanted walt to win theres consequences in breaking bad

I thought it was very powerful. I would have liked it even better if the blackness had lasted as long as Chase had originally intended

It was contrived and sophomoric. Even with the hints and set up, it just didn't work. What was supposed to be a big bang was more like a "huh? Oh I get it, he's dead" thud.

​@@ndogg20 Having Tony's death be a dramatic spectacle would have made the finale more entertaining, but it also would have taken away the elements of subversion and realism which a lot of people enjoy about the ending; I guess it's ultimately about whether you prefer to be entertained or to experience unique and memorable concepts

Nothing was shown. The Sopranos finale loses by default.

⁠@@cheekbuster6909I think we all prefer to be entertained while experiencing unique and memorable concepts. Some times creatives forget about the entertainment part

Tony caught a bullet

and that he didn't have the making of a varsity athlete

@@TheeCapN Too bad he was too busy chasing skirt :(

Uncle Junior was ashamed to face his friends, Tone should of caught that fly ball against Mountain Lakes.

@@Rick_Riff lmfao was just about to post this exact sentence you legend.

👍

@@MacabreStorytelling , still waiting to see where Many Saints of Newark will take the series. Edited: SO about what I said....

@@osmanyousif7849 I can a tell you, thanks to.this video, that the prequel will end with Tony finding out she's pregnant

@@osmanyousif7849 it's a prequel, so I don't think it'll have an effect on the main series or its ending

So women

“He was the threat, he was the danger”

"I'm the one who knocks. I am the danger"

He's not though. He still seems like he's bitten off more than he can chew. Outside if the last episode, Walter was a bumbling wannabe at the mercy of everyone else

@@wellsborie6897 He still took out Gus.

@@H.K.5 yeah, he realized that if you detonate a bomb right next to Gus, he'd die. That's not super impressive or competent

Damn I love this comment

@@shawnfoster4506 Agree

Macabre’s biggest mistake in this video is the notion that the show should’ve ended with season 4 and season 5 does nothing more than show Walt getting his comeuppance. Face off doesn’t work as the series finale because Walt’s character arc isn’t complete yet, he’s the most immoral and evil character on the show but in his mind he’s still has the delusional excuse of “doing it for the family.”. At the end of Granite state that delusion final falls apart and Gretchen’s assertion that the Walt they knew was gone finally takes hold, but in his heart Walter was always Heisenberg they just never truly knew him nor did anyone else. Walts decision to return regardless of the fact his family is gone and his life is ruined shows that Walt has come to terms with being an evil man, there’s no more delusions of justification, at the same time, he can now fully appreciate his success and status in the criminal underworld. Him returning and wasting Jacks crew wasn’t about avenging Hank or saving Jesse, to Walt it was about proving to himself and everyone else around him that Welker’s gang, and Lydia were no match for Heisenberg, in his final moments Walt basks in the glory of knowing he was simultaneously one of the best Meth cooks and one of the best criminal minds in the world, after all the obstacles, all the opposition in the end the legendary Heisenberg triumphs over all and his legacy of infamy will outlive him for years to come. I think Light Yagami is a more comparable character to Walt than Tony, key difference being that light never comes to terms with the fact that he’s evil despite being made a total fool of in his final moments.

Yes, this is what I was feeling better said. Breaking Bad was never a show about karma, it's about an evil and selfish person doing as he likes, and how everyone around him reacts to that.

One could say that he actually left the business and it was only Jessie's hatred that drove events to their eventually conclusion by teaming up with Hank and law enforcement, something Walter never saw coming. He called Jack and the nazis to kill jessie, whom he believed had found his stash. When he sees Hank he immediately panics and calls jack to go back and forget it. I don't agree that he was responsible for Hank's death. Of course this doesn't excuse him poisoning Brock or having 8 inmates clipped within two minutes and three prisons. Telling Jessie to kill Gale was still Jessie's choice and Walt's life was on the line. It was on the line because he had to save Jessie from getting himself killed and running over the two puns. Walt turned evil but not everything he did was evil.

It was never a case of Walt righting the wrongs of his actions. It was about him accepting who he truly was, and stop lying to himself and those around him about why he did what he did

@@Onezy05 And it is implied that Walt was up in that cabin for quite a lot of time without leaving really at all. Probably wasn't much for him to do but to reflect.

@@GTAfan421 I think that consciously, Walt thought he was doing it for his family as that was the natural rationalization for his actions. But unconsciously, it was all about his own selfish pride and ego, at wanting to achieve something in what had otherwise been a highly mundane life. I think that as Walt's actions became more and more questionable, he struggled more and more to understand the unconscious truth behind what he was doing. An important scene that comes to mind is when he punches the mirror after finding out his cancer is in remission. It should be a moment of celebration, that he's evaded death for the time being and is around for the continued love of his family. But in reality, it's deprived him of his justification for his actions, for the thrill and purpose he gets from the criminal lifestyle, reducing him from mighty Heisenberg to plain old Walter White. He's frustrated because it should be a rational moment of celebration, but he acts in a seemingly irrational manner as it conflicts with how he *really* feels. Easily one of the most important scenes in BrBa. Perhaps the most important.

What about the Sopranos finale was better? It wasn't even a finale.. it was a "we can't come up with a final scene" ending. Transitioning to a black screen is not my idea of genius. It comes off cheap. Breaking Bad actually had a legit ending.. a good one.

@@dociebiemowie915 Tony got whacked. They foreshadowed it a ton in the final season and chase had it planned out for a while

Very well said. The entire point of season 5 is that at this point, Walt became the villain.

@@saaimhaider8703 Yeah, and I think that's the main thesis here, that Season 4 finale would have seen him BECOME the biggest villain. Whereas Season 5's second half sees him get a redemption arc undoing the Authors original intent to turn Mr. Chips into Scarface. Tony Montana dies a villain, Walt doesn't, I think that's crucial to OP's overview of Season 5.

Walt is the villain in season 5….

@@JaxonHaxon I disagree, because I see one key distinction in the character development and themes of Breaking Bad. I don't see Walt as moral or immoral, I see him as amoral. What Walt was, in my opinion, was a quintessential egotist; he wanted recognition and power, whether as savior or villain. Walt's villainy up to Ozymandias was his road to egotistic satiation, and during Ozymandias and Granite State we saw the wages of his villainy and his egotism through it denied. The Schwartzes' disavowment of him didn't set him on a redemptive course, it set him on a course of satiation through different means. Blackmailing the Schwartzes to use his money to set up a trust fund, eliminating the neo-Nazis, reconciling with Skylar, and rescuing Jesse was one final exercise of power over them.

@@eacaraxe mmm mlp

He knew blue meth was still being sold, which means he knew Jesse was at least working for the Nazi dudes. In Walt’s mind Jesse is his property and no one else can control him. So it’s all relevant.

Walt could just have easily fantasized that Jesse was the damsel in distress that he needed to save.

@@gman21xx But that isn't true because he didn't even know the meth was still being made. He saved Jesse after realizing that

@@gman21xx​​⁠What about the Charlie Rose interview at the end of the penultimate episode? He states that the meth is still out there.

Walt was there when Todd suggested leaving Jesse alive and take him captive and make him cook.

Exactly my thoughts. The ending isn't a redemption for Walt, it's him showing how far he'll go to be number one. He was pushed down all his life whether from Gretchen or social status or economic status. Thi is the catalyst for the show. Jesse has been in the meth business and was fine where he was at until walt came along and instantly wanted to be on top. This is what happens in the finally, he is at a lowest of lows and pushes his way to the top once again.

I think he really just wanted to free jesse.

Exactly

The instigating moment, though, was Walt seeing Gretchen and Elliot on (ugh) Charlie Rose taking all the credit for his work. It gave him the impetus to weave that into those loose ends to make it all work.

I think your dead on, it was always about Walt's ego.

9 million dollars is not a relatively small amount of money lol

Walt has a pile of £80 million dollars to leave to his family compared to that a few million is a relatively small amount.

@@RedcoatTrooper Still tho it’s 10 times more than what he originally wanted to give them

@@Johnnysmithy24 I would be happy with a few million myself.

@@stairwaytoheaven8 For that to happen, though, Jesse first had to get enslaved and see his one love interest killed and Hank had to get killed

Agreed. Season 5 of BrBa is def the darkest of them all, and its not even close. The first 5 episodes of season 5 are more of "Now WE run the business! Haha!" As that happens, we see this evil genius side of Walter come out, who he finally can be now that he is king. That gives those episodes an odd feeling, like although Jesse is happy and theyre making fat stacks yo, Walt is truly going into the dark. And finally... they shoot a fucking kid. They take part in the murder of a child. It's a rude awakening to what world they really live in, and from there it only spirals out of control, getting more and more depressing and fucked.

@@billycostigan1247 They shoot a kid... it's been a while since I've seen BrBa, but doesn't Brock live? I only remember them killing his mother.

@@heatherperleberg7816 train heist episode. S5ep5. Dead Freight. Todd shoots the motorbike kid

@@billycostigan1247 Oh yeah, I forgot about that kid. Thanks.

Exactly, I don’t even like rewatching season 5 cause it becomes so dark and tragic it’s hard to get thru

Well the directer let it slip years ago. Tony dies. Bobby foreshadows exactly how it'd go. He later tried to make it a play your own adventure, but the dude who wrote it slipped it before realizing how powerful the speculation community needs shit to be open ended.

@@IAmTheDoctor00 Director let what slip

@@imperfect_dan7519 i think he said he dies at one point. But idk atm I'm a bit too far in to defend my statement. I'm sure you can find it somewhere.

@@IAmTheDoctor00 yeah he had an original ending where Tony more obviously died, but accidentally said “the two endings were only slightly different”

@@IAmTheDoctor00 think he said he originally planned for him to die at the end but decided to change the ending and leave it ambiguous to leave it to the imagination

While Sopranos ends on a cliffhanger, it's not as big as people think. It's either Tony dies, or... well you just watched 6 seasons of what the alternative will be. It would be the exact same thing. Tony is the same person in the finale that he is in Episode 1, and his family kind of is too. If you think Tony lives, just start the whole series over and that's what his life would be like. Time is a flat circle.

Lol in every way.

Don’t mention these two mediocre shows on the same breath as Game of Thrones 😤😤. The ending of GOT was the biggest masterpiece of storytelling to ever exist. The Sapronos and Brekin Bad don’t come close!!!😤😤

@@Johnnysmithy24 No. It is not. It was a big trash fire of an ending where the writers became idiots.

@@captainmarvelwilson508 Google the word “sarcasm”. It will blow your mind I swear

Still waiting for the Many Saints if Newark.

It was unbelievable watching while it was airing in real time. I had this strange personal connection to it. It’s the most captivating show I have ever experienced. No other show even came close, neither before nor after.

Another equally great show is the shield ! The first season is ok then it gets as good as any show . Check it out

I like this interpretation. I hope that the guy who made the video sees This, id be interested in what he thinks of this interpretation.

I agree with your assessment of Walt as a character and what drives it's still a terrible ending because Walt is meant to be something of a tragic villain but he goes out like a hero subverting or even reneging on the the moral messages the show is definitely trying to send.

I think you're on to something, but I don't agree with everything. Walt's initial desire is the only thing he achieved. He needs money to leave his family after he dies. This is his primary reason for returning in the finale. His secondary reason is revenge. He didn't go in to rescue Jesse so much as he did it to assert his power over those men. He is addicted to the status and power and his final act is setting himself back on top of the pyramid. I don't think the show is about balance. The episode (can't remember the name of it) when Walt is teaching about chirality is the moral of the story. On the one hand, you have a chemical (man) who has these traits in this order and is benevolent or at least benign, on the other hand you have a chemical that has the same components in a different order that is toxic and deadly. The show is about the recombination of those components that change Walt from a benign human into a toxic one and, possibly, a reshifting of them to get back to the benign. Whether that happens or not is unimportant, but the initial shift is what the show is about. The conversation Macabre uses with Gretchen is a little misleading as I don't think Walt really thinks they forced him out. The purpose of that conversation is to intimidate her and keep her away from his family, so the things he is saying aren't exactly honest on purpose, but the way in which Walt thinks will most effectively keep her and Elliot away. Look at his face after, he isn't happy about the things he said. I don't think he had his agency stripped before the end. A death sentence (cancer) is not the same as stripping of agency. Walt has choices and makes them with purpose and intent. He didn't reconcile with his family. Skylar will never forgive him. He just owns up to his responsibility. Junior really hates him. Marie will always hate him. There is no reconciliation, only an acknowledgment of guilt. You didn't say this but Macabre did, so I thought I'd address it. Overall I agree that the finale works. I prefer it to Sopranos, as I do with the whole show. I think everyone gets something similar but slightly different from it.

Heather Holt what did u feel about the sopranos ending?

Star LORD to be honest I hadn’t watched the Supranos and a friend told me the ending, just blurred it out one day, so it kinda ruined the shock for me. But, if it is meant that Tony gets killed when it fades to black, I like it. I like the ambiguity. Reminds me of the end of (and beginning of) The Rules Of Attraction. It starts and ends Mid sentence. And you don’t know what was going on before or what may happen after.... but you have a pretty good idea. Did you like the Supranos ending?

Heather Holt I liked it but I loved the ending of BB

@@HeatherHolt When you can't even distinguish a show's ending and a broadcast technical failure, I think that is highly indicative of problems. The Sopranos' ending comes off as a huge joke.

@Ryan Akwar Which makes it terrible, because it comes off as a huge joke.

This sums up my thoughts about the show exactly. It is good but at the end of the day it was never in the same league as The Sopranos, never necessarily even tried to be.

The Sopranos finale fell flat on it's face for basically everyone when it aired. It was a cheap ending and people felt like it cheated them out of a proper ending. They couldn't come up with a proper scene so they just cut to black instead. It came off lazy.. which sort of a microcosm of the entire show from the beginning. So many major plot holes even major ones like who is boss of NJ. People tend to just check their brain at the door with the Sopranos because it had a lot of comedy in it.

@@dociebiemowie915 I think you checked your brain at the door, because you clearly don’t understand the point of the final scene at all

@@greggoat6570 You think Breaking Bad is bad? Better Call Saul is worse. They had the evil protagonist like Saul suddenly did a 180 in the 2nd act of the final episode for the sake of “redemption” even though there was no indication that he will redeem himself what so ever in the previous 10 seasons.

​@@nont18411Saul is not Walt. Saul was never a terrible criminal or killer like Gus, Walt or even Mike. He was a sleazeball quasi genius lawyer and he didn't have the "the world is mine" attitude like the others. In case you missed the whole God damned backstory of Saul, and the speech of how he took the bad choice road and was in way over his head. Still I didn't like the ending as much as BrBa and Sopranos but it's not indefensible to do a 180 after years of horrifying experiences and being on the run. Not to mention factor in reflection on his actions in which digression occurs with Walt and Tony. Saul becomes increasingly reflective, mostly. The others do not. They're fine in their rationalizations. Saul is not and it shows in the dialog and acting.

Thrill of: cooking meth - not exactly, he took pride in his product being 99% clean, better than the others, that his extensive knowledge of chemistry made him stand out and gave him recognition, both psychological and financial. And he was still struggling with realization that no matter how much he produces his ex-friends are going to outdo him monetarily ("billions"). He needed recognition of his worth to satisfy his quite narcissistic ego. killing people - same, nothing indicates he enjoyed it, more like he just did it out of necessity or emotion. evading Hank - probably, he toyed with him for a bit manipulating people - again, something he deemed necessary and didn't think much of I think Tony is both product of his environment but also a person who refuses to change his life, rather using his newfound knowledge of psychology to become better at his lifestyle (as stated in the end of the series). I think he and Walter are just two different types and it's pointless to compare their "evilness".

I don’t think that is a fair distinction. Tony is just more stable and fits into the status quo to a much greater extent than walter does.

I agree

Its amazing the things you pick up on when you rewatch the Sopranos a few times and deep dive into all the analyses out there. Like how in the final episode there's several scenes where Paulie and Patsy talk about arranging a hit on someone at the Bing. Presumably they're talking about Phil Leotardo but they never mention him specifically, and given that both have good reasons to see Tony whacked; revenge in Patsy's case and self preservation for Paulie (who was definitely aware of what Tony was thinking on their boat trip in Florida), I'm now entirely convinced they had Tony clipped.

Breaking Bad wasn’t a redemption story lol. Walt never redeemed himself, he just tried to make some things right before leaving. He still died a narcissistic man who ruined his family’s life, and Jesse’s.

@@Johnnysmithy24 He didn't even do that to begin with. He just did what he originally wanted to do. He gave the money to his family because that was his original goal. He got rid of Lydia because it was what he wanted to do. He killed Jack's gang and freed Jesse because he could. Hell, the killing of Jack's gang was purely out of either revenge or ego. Freeing Jesse is the one thing Walter did that wasn't driven by his ego. Hell, he dies surrounded by chemistry as that was the one true thing he loved besides himself

The Sopranos is more like a pond.

Walt did suffer though. He lost everything before his death and later went on to tie up loose ends as a redemption of sorts.

@@callinater6133 Not exactly, he died before he even got the full consequences of his actions. And those consequences are now transferred to another protagonist, Jimmy McGill. That is the true punishment.

@@nont18411 That was not punishment. Hell, Jimmy wouldn't even be fully punished had he not bragged about it to begin with. Had Jimmy not decided to take full responsibility for everything Walter did, barely anything would have happened to him

So he goes out being seen as he would like to be seen. It's a neat victory for Walt and satisfies the viewer. This is what is contentious.

❤️

Twin Peaks was already one of the best shows ever but Twin Peaks season 3 gave it the one thing it was a missing, A proper send off and It's damn near perfect.

The finale of Twin Peaks the Return actually has more of a parallel to BB to me. If BB had ended with season 4 you’d have had a happy ending for Walt: he overcomes his enemy and if Pinkman and he get out of the game they basically get away with all their activities. It’s season 5 where things really go to shit (Hank killed, Walt irreconcilably separated from his family, Jesse enslaved and even though freed later his love interest is killed leaving an orphaned boy). Similarly, if TPR had ended with the penultimate episode you would have had the typical soap opera happy end (TP was always in part a parody of soap operas). But the final episode blows that up again. At least for the main two characters.

@@BishopWalters12 I thought season 2 already had a perfect ending. But thoroughly enjoyed The Return. It did however contain a lot of criticism of the modern urge for nostalgia tv/cinema

He didn’t need to. It’s not like they would’ve been homeless.

@@logancarlile8895 but they wouldn't of been "set".

❤

At the end of the show Walter isn’t really shown as a villain tho.

split that giant paragraph into smaller sections.

@@bozotheclown666 he is showed as a protagonist, but he is definitely the villain of this story. He destroys every other main characters life

@@ColorMatching lol my bad

@@bozotheclown666 I disagree all the way and that's why I strongly disagree with this video. Breaking Bad season 5 was a masterpiece for a number of reasons including Walter stopped lying to himself and everyone around him. Walter White was a bad man but he got a late start in life when he started doing evil things and nobody in his family or former friends will miss him. He got his empire and left a legacy but he sold his soul.

*Street Boss

Family? I told you, they're a glorified crew!

@@khwarezmia Five fuckin' Families and we got this other pygmy thing over in Jersey

unusual veracity absolutely! Amazing breakdown of these two epic shows! 👏👏

Hello there

Thank you ! I felt that this video in order to present an argument needed to simplify a lot of what Breaking Bad was.

"Walt can't really be classified as scrictly evil or good which is one of the main points of the series..." I think this is one point where a lot of hardcore BB fans lose the plot, as I did myself when I first watched the series. The idea that Walt is not meant to be completely morally degraded by the end seems silly to me seeing as we see him purposefully pass up plenty of chances to walk away in order to continue stroking his ego, which ultimately leads to him allowing a young woman to choke to death on her own vomit and poison an innocent child that could have surely ended in their death. I think the fact that many still try to defend Walt by the end is a testament to the emotional resonance of the character, but I can't see how you can possibly say he is not an evil character by the end of the series. The Sopranos on the other hand owns the fact that Tony is a monstrous sociopath. "...there are themes of redemption as well,like at what point has a person gone too far to actually be redeemed and can they achieve some form of redemption even after all the bad things they have done." Except this is only brought up in the final two episodes of the series when it comes to Walt, which seems like a complete whiplash of thematic messaging, which is the basis of the entire video. "...the ending was not Walt just simply achieving redemption..." So why did you mention this a few lines earlier about achieving "some form of redemption"?" "Walts end is also tragic when you think about the fact he died with his son hating him,his brother in law dead,and the fact that his family will never know that he is the reason for their financial security. The final episode is more of an epilogue for the series,with Walt making right what little he can with the time that is left to him cause he is the reason everything fell apart in the first place and calling that a death fantasy feels disingenuous. " Except it isn't. As Walt says, he did it for him. In the end, he did everything he did for himself so he could die satisfied. He didn't do it for anyone else. As I said, if they had given him another out, perhaps giving him the chance to flee to Europe, then his final move could be seen as a selfless sacrifice. But he was dying of cancer and had no other options and the fact that his final move in ABQ is meant to be a selfless sacrifice as opposed to him just doing what he wants to do so he can die at peace. The show structures it in a way in which there literally is no other option rather than dying alone in a dingy cabin and thus it sets itself up to fail.

@@MacabreStorytelling - Almost every bad decision Walt makes in the show while being morally corrupt does have a some what understandable thought process behind them even if they don't necessarily excuse his actions. Walt has also done things that are selfless like saving Jesse's life in season 3 where he could have easily let them remove Jesse and not ruin his entire situation with Gus which resulted in a season long conflict with Gus in which him and his entire family were in danger constantly. Even with Jane's death in which obviously Walt did an awful thing by letting her die but even in that situation it could be argued that while his action is inexcusable it kinda came from a part of him which cared for Jesse and didn't wanna see him end up dying over drugs and throwing his life away. Thats why I say he is not strictly evil,he is definitely not a good or even decent person either and that was my point,which is why people have an emotional resonance with him even after his numourous misdeeds. - I wouldn't say a theme of redemption was only present in the last two episodes of the series. We see Jesse constantly struggle with what he does across the show and along with that watching a mild mannered man like Walt fall soo far from grace I think raises the question of whether he can come back from it in any way shape or form, and I feel that gives enough evidence for a theme of redemption to be present in the show. - What I said was the theme of redemption was present in the show but whether Walt achieved any redemption at the end I think is for each individual viewer to decide. Also when I said he does not simply achieve redemption that was what I think,and was me putting up an argument against you calling his end a death fantasy. - First of all,him saying he did it for himself is not necessarily him saying he did it only for himself. Obviously he cares about his family and wanted to provide for them. He gives up the business at the end of season 5A for his family and yes he could have gotten out many times before that but he also enjoyed the high he got from cooking meth which he denied through the entire show and kept saying he was going through all this just for his family which was not true but that does not mean that he did not care about them and did not want to secure their future as well,and even if the show gave him a chance to escape to europe or whatever I don't see how he still would not help his family at the end especially since he's the one who fucked up their situation soo badly. - I do think the 5th season was necessary as we got to see how Walts actions ultimately effected his family,and my main point is that it seems like your entire argument against Breaking Bad stems from your own personal dissatisfaction with the show for not ending at season 4 and not lining up with your thematic analysis rather than any objective arguments for why the 5th season is unnecessary,where as in your other vidoes you tend to make more objective arguments like in your video on HBO's terrible Watchmen series or in your video on The Departed,a film that I thought was fantastic before watching your video,but you brought up so many good points against the film,that I couldn't really refute that it was quite flawed in many aspects of its writing even if I remembered liking the movie quite a bit after watching it initially.

"Almost every bad decision Walt makes in the show while being morally corrupt does have a some what understandable thought process behind them even if they don't necessarily excuse his actions.' His actions being understandable based on his characterization don't make him any less morally corrupt. I know why Tony Soprano does what he does, he is still an evil man. "I wouldn't say a theme of redemption was only present in the last two episodes of the series. We see Jesse constantly struggle with what he does across the show and along with that watching a mild mannered man like Walt fall soo far from grace I think raises the question of whether he can come back from it in any way shape or form, and I feel that gives enough evidence for a theme of redemption to be present in the show." For Jesse, not for Walt. Jesse's arc was always about him going back and forth. Walt's arc was him devolving into moral debauchery all the way up until the penultimate episode. Not exactly balanced as well as Jesse's. "What I said was the theme of redemption was present in the show but whether Walt achieved any redemption at the end I think is for each individual viewer to decide. Also when I said he does not simply achieve redemption that was what I think,and was me putting up an argument against you calling his end a death fantasy." Except it does play as a death fantasy. It ends as best as it possibly could given the circumstances (the money, reconciling with Skylar, saving Jesse.) Sure there are still consequences but for others not for Walt. Again, him dyign of cancer cheapens this finale because he is going to die anyway. His hand is forced so it isn't clear if he is doing this because he has decided he has truly changed or just wants to satiate himself before his death. If he WAS given an out, then his decision to return would show his change of heart. "First of all,him saying he did it for himself is not necessarily him saying he did it only for himself. Obviously he cares about his family and wanted to provide for them." Which is why he rejected Elliot's offer to cover his expenses? Which is why he kept pushing and pushing and pushing despite his family being put in more and more peril? I am sure he wanted to help his family but that was superceded by his own ego. Again, we only see this dichotomy flip in the final episode. Even at the end of Season 5A, he is shown to be bored of cooking meth which is what leads him to giving it up rather than simply Skylar's plea for him to do so. "...even if the show gave him a chance to escape to europe or whatever I don't see how he still would not help his family at the end especially since he's the one who fucked up their situation soo badly." Which is why I would argue you're slightly biased to your interpretation of Walt as a semi-redeemable character. if Walt WAS given a way out but decided to go back, then that would solidify his change. But he wasn't. It was either go back to ABQ or die alone of cancer. If he had the option to go to Europe over ABQ and decided not too, that would work, but his hand was basically forced. I would argue that the idea that Walt would go back over going to Europe is contradicted by every single time he put his own ego over the safety of his family. "I do think the 5th season was necessary as we got to see how Walts actions ultimately effected his family,and my main point is that it seems like your entire argument against Breaking Bad stems from your own personal dissatisfaction with the show for not ending at season 4 and not lining up with your thematic analysis rather than any objective arguments for why the 5th season is unnecessary" Except I laid out several objective arguments as to why Season 5 fell flat. And even if you agree that seeing the fallout of Walt's actions affected his family, that is fine. I would argue that Season 5 would have been a lot better had Ozymandias been the finale or it ended on a downer note, but that the final two episodes cheapen the impact. My argument about the show not ending at Season 4 is that Season 5 re-contextualizes the pacing of the show. Seasons 1-4 were Walt falling into moral debauchery. Season 5 was mostly this until the very end until he gave up, then it was about him facing the consequences for the next 6 episodes and then him trying to make it all right in the final 2 episodes. So if we go by the trajectory of the show, that is roughly four and a half full seasons of Walt falling into moral debauchery, 6 episodes of him trying to give it up but being roped back in and suffering the consequences and then 2 measly episodes of him trying to make it right. My objective argument against this is that the pacing is incredibly off come Season 5, especially considering what a slow burn the rest of the show is. My argument of it ending at Season 4 is that it would have retained its thematic consistency.

@@MacabreStorytelling - Walts reasons for doing the bad things he does is what we can sympathize with. At the beginning of the show his life is in the dumps,then he gets cancer and being put in the situation he was put in,him going to such desperate lengths such as cooking meth to leave his family with something after he dies is not something I would classify as a strictly evil act considering his stituation. And yes his pride which keeps him in the meth business instead of taking help from others is defintely is a negative quality of his but his initial reason for doing what he is doing is still something thats noble. - So you agree that a theme of redemption and atoning for your mistakes is something thats in the show,but only for Jesse. Ok then so my point against that would be that our perception of Walt at the beginning of the show at least is that he is a decent person,who just had a very rough hand dealt to him in life so in a desperate attempt to save his family's future he decided to start cooking meth. His life has been very mundane and boring so when he got the high of being in the meth business he started to get carried away with it which then resulted in his downfall. Now as a vewier why is it unreasonable for us to think about whether he can make up for his mistakes in any way by the end of the show knowing that he was not always like this. - Him having died anyway does not make it a death fantasy. At the end,his son hates him and always will,he will never see his daughter grow up,his brother in law is dead,his reconciling with skylar is just him having one last talk with her as a way for him to deal with his guilt for putting her through so much crap,but at the end of the day she won't ever know that he secured her and their sons future with the money he gave to Elliot and Gretchen and Walts actions across the show will always haunt his family. Why does everything have to go wrong for it to be not considered a death fantasy? As for saving Jesse,why would you think thats something Walt would not do especially since its something we have seen him do before as well. Everything he does in the finale is whatever he could realistically do to contain the shitstorm he caused for his family,there is no inconsistency in that cause he does care for his family and felt guilty that his selfish actions put them in such an awful situation. - Because of his ego,he wanted to provide for his family himself and he got caught up with the high of meth cooking as well so he tried to do both which was a selfish decison on his part but that still does not change the fact he wanted to secure his family's future. What do you mean he got bored at the end of season 5A? Skylar just showed him all the money he made and it was soo much that even he couldn't come up with a reason to go on any further with the meth cooking. - Walts initial reason for doing the meth cooking was to leave his family with something before he dies. Thats a motivation for his character that is present in him from the very beginning but because of his ego and the thrill he got from being in an illegal business,he started to lose sight of his initial goal,which is what led to his fall from grace. The reason why its not a contradiction for Walt to try and fix his family's problems is because that was his goal to begin with and is referenced through out the show,and it didn't just dissappear,its just that somewhere along his journey without realising he started to prioritize his ego and his pride over the main reason he was supposed to be doing all of this for in the first place which is what he realised at the end of the show and his guilt for letting his own ego and pride supercede his family's well being (which was supposed to be his main objective) was the thing that led him back to ABQ to try and fix things. That thought process makes sense and is not inconsistent or contrived. - The only objective argument you made against BB was that Jacks crew were a bunch of overly scummy dicks without much complexity unlike the other characters in the series. I think they didn't get that much development cause the final season was completely focused on the drama between Walt and his family. - So your argument is that a story about a characters fall from grace can never have said character trying to atone for their mistakes at any point in the story and has to end in a complete downer. Why? Putting aside the point that Breaking Bad's ending isn't a happy ending in many ways,for Walt to try and fix his family's situation is something that MAKES SENSE. Falling into moral debauchery does not necessarily mean the positive aspects of his personality just dissappear. Why is it unreasonable for his character to feel guilt over fucking over his family and to want to make up for his mistakes before he dies. I feel like you are really delegitimizing the complexity of Walts character and just saying that he has to be evil all the way through to the end to make it fit for your very specific thematic analysis of the show.

The Breaking Bad finale is so cartoony and cliche, though. Walt was out in the desert building a weapon like it was a Road Runner cartoon, and as expected he perishes in the end. There was no surprise to the ending, nor anything unique or smart about it, I saw it coming a mile away. The ending of Breaking Bad much like the show itself was also a bit of a rip off of Ripley's Game's ending, where the guy who "breaks bad" because of his cancer sacrifices himself in a shoot out for the deuteragonist and leaves the money he made from his crimes for his family. The Sopranos ending was really unexpected and wasn't a cliche showdown ending, while also concluding a lot of character arcs.

Agreed. That is why Season 5 of BB isn't a total wash, since I felt the writers wanted to make the show more into a morality tale, which they did well with Ozymandias... but I feel the finale sort of dampens or walks back on the entire function of Season 5 as a whole. I would have rather had Ozymandias be the finale of Season 5 OR just remove Season 5 altogether.

And that's exactly why I think Felina is even better than Ozymandias! You wrote everything correctly

Agreed. I while it may not be the finale, it was the climax of the series. It was what had been built up since season one

Tony was lost Walter was not

That seems like a very surface level understanding of the show’s themes. Of course the show demonstrates that actions have consequences. That’s not my contention. My contention is that the finale is framed as if Walt is “making right” which seemed dissonant with how the show frames him up until that point.

@@MacabreStorytelling It wasn't him making it right. It was revenge he had in mind. Remember, he was gonna give himself up until he saw Gretchen and Elliot lie about his contribution to their company. His rage at that is what ultimately drove him in the end, along with the desire for revenge on Jack and his men. He wanted Jesse dead too until he saw what had become of him. Also, his character arc didn't finish until the finale when he finally admitted to Skylar that in the end, he did all he did mainly for himself. Oh, and lastly I didn't mean the 'reaping what you sow' theme was the only prevalent one in the show, just one of the overarching ones