CPE Bach is not really unappreciated, he’s just not as well-known as he might be; that said, he is something of an acquired taste, and he was not always universally admired even in his own time by some who found his music odd and eccentric.

CPE Bach is completely underrated. He is one of my favourite composers.

​@@pianoronaldI quite agree. I have only just discovered his superb music. Very much a 'chip off the old block." (JS Bach)

​@@elaineblackhurst1509 Some people are just frightened of genius. Nothing 'odd or 'eccentric ' here.

@@gazza2933 JS Bach had four musical sons who are all worth investigating. The only composer Haydn ever acknowledged as a mentor was *Carl Phillip Emanuel,* (Berlin then Hamburg), and Mozart rated *Johann Christian* (Milan then London) very highly. The other two are *Wilhelm Friedemann* (no fixed employment), and *Johann Christoph Friedrich* (Buckeburg). Whilst ‘chips off the old block’, CPE, JC, and JCF are really are Classical composers as opposed to their fathers’s Baroque, though the eldest son WF whilst highly original, is the most hybrid, or old-fashioned if you like, and much closer to being Baroque than the other three.

Mozart is irrelevant, musically these four symphonies are from a different planet. In terms of the symphony, Haydn is a marginally better reference point, but only slightly, and only because Haydn’s symphonies are generally superior to those of Mozart apart from the final six; that said, these are very fine works and almost unique in the second half of the 18th century and they do indeed have the ‘Wow!’ factor.

I love CPE Bach, and I don't really care for Mozart at all. I'd say that for me, CPE is on another plane of existence. Incomparable. This is just my own emotional response, of course.

He was also a huge fan of Corelli

@@eyuin5716 I know and also Haydn and Vivaldi

CPE was *not* ‘a major influence on …Mozart’, though his Versuch* was the basis of modern keyboard playing, and influential on all composers going forward (including Mozart); in terms of general influence, barely a single note of Mozart bears any relation to the music of Emanuel Bach whatsoever. CPE was the only composer Haydn ever acknowledged as a mentor. The positions of Mozart and Haydn vis-a-vis CPE Bach are polar opposites. * The Versuch: CPE Bach’s manual on the true art of keyboard playing.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Mozart studied the keyboard works and books of CPE Bach in Salzburg and Vienna. Mozart would say after his death in 1788, “Bach is the father. We are the children.”

⁠@@loganfruchtman953 1. I clearly stated that everyone studied the Versuch, so it didn’t need repeating. 2. The Mozart ‘quote’ is little more than clickbait; you may care to attempt to explain what it means, something I can do that easily and have done so elsewhere, but I doubt if you can. I would be interested to know exactly why you think CPE Bach is Mozart’s musical father.

i know im asking randomly but does anybody know a tool to log back into an instagram account? I stupidly forgot the password. I love any tips you can offer me.

@Marcelo Enrique instablaster :)

These symphonies are entirely Classical.

​@@elaineblackhurst1509 but they sound a bit barroque for moments... I can listen to "a vivaldi" for some short periods of time

​@@elaineblackhurst1509 but they sound a bit barroque sometimes... it sounds alike vivaldi or telemann for some seconds... it is a mixture

Is he an illustrated scholar or just straight up a random knowledgeable commenter?

Hahaha same I have so many screenshotted

Elaine es nuestra madre y nosotros somos sus hijos amantisimos! 😂

ricardo moyano Magnificent symphonies - agreed, and they are brilliantly played here. Unfortunately, you have repeated the ambiguous, much misunderstood and misinterpreted quotation reputedly by Mozart, which appears hundreds of times on KZfaq, largely by people who have little understanding of either composer, especially CPE Bach. This quotation is almost always taken out of context, thus rendering it meaningless. Often - as here - it is used as little more than clickbait; it is therefore not helpful, nor enlightening, especially as it is so nonsensical if it refers generally to CPE. It is certainly unclear as to what precisely Mozart was referring, though Mozart’s comment does make some sense if he was referring to CPE’s Versuch. CPE Bach as a well-known North German musician was respected by every German composer of the age, and more widely across Europe*; but listen to the music of either CPE or Mozart, not a single note of one sounds remotely like the other - in children you expect to see some resemblance to the parent - in this case, there is none. Forget the quote; just go with the evidence of your own ears and what’s between and you will know immediately why to keep repeating this quote is so silly. It is almost impossible to take Mozart’s comment at face value if it refers to CPE’s music generally, if you take it as referring to his theoretical, pedagogical work - ie the Versuch, and/or his keyboard playing, then Mozart’s comment is a perceptive insight. Read the dedication of Mozart’s six string quartets to Haydn and you will find that the father/children metaphor is used again by Mozart; Mozart is the father, the quartets are the children and they are entrusted to Haydn’s protection in the well-known, beautiful and heartfelt dedication, written in Italian, by Mozart. In this case, the metaphor is far more apt. * Dr Burney took the trouble to travel from England to Hamburg to go and visit him.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Your rather patronising reply ignores the fact that it is known exactly when and to whom Mozart was speaking when he made the remark and the idea that he was referring to CPE is supported by several informed sources including the music critics Guy Dammann and John Allison, hardly people who have "little understanding of either composer".

David Griffiths Not intended to be patronising, though how you perceive it is entirely your own business; it is in fact an attempt to debate and understand a very well-known but much misunderstood quotation. These attempts to use this quotation, out of context, in an attempt to imply, or even to create almost non-existent links between CPE and Mozart are absolutely ridiculous. I am genuinely interested to know exactly why people think Mozart made this comment - and why people continually use the quotation as a sort of clickbait - which to me makes no sense. To my ears, there is absolutely no evidence of CPE’s paternity in a single note of Mozart’s music. Perhaps you could enlighten me. The ‘informed sources’ you have mentioned are not known to me but I will check them out.

David Griffiths Subsequent comment: Both Guy Damman (Guardian 24 Feb 2011), and John Allison (Telegraph 26 Jan 2014), in the articles to which I think you referred, have done little more than repeat the quotation without applying any critical thought as to its actual meaning; they have in fact both done the very thing about which I am complaining - namely using this quotation inappropriately, almost as clickbait about an article on CPE Bach. The quotation has been used, as it has dozens of times on KZfaq, without applying any critical acumen. Neither journalist offers anything that could not be found on Wikipedia, and as music critics, are the typical Jack-of-all-trades; being labelled as ‘informed sources’ is extremely generous. I learnt nothing about either composer from these articles which were intended generally for people who knew very little about CPE Bach. A music critic is not the same thing as a professional musicologist; neither is writing in a national daily newspaper the same thing as presenting a well researched and learned argument to scholars. It remains however, a fascinating point as to what Mozart actually meant, and why he actually said it. I would be interesting to know what others feel about it.

David Griffiths If you would care to quote me chapter and verse regarding the fact that I have ignored ‘...that it is known exactly when and to whom Mozart was speaking when he made the remark’, I may be able to demonstrate to you why this point is less clear cut than you believe.

He is, but it is not evident at all in a single note of this music.

He was creative like his dad... J S Bach is very proud

Partly true; CPE’s Bach’s Versuch (Manual on the true art of keyboard playing) was widely influential and is the basis of modern - ie post-Baroque - keyboard playing; the associated sonatas, and his playing were also widely recognised. Otherwise, for almost his entire career he was relatively isolated firstly in Berlin (1738-1767) wasting his time and unappreciated, playing harpsichord continuo in Frederick the Great’s endless cycle of Quantz flute concertos, and then in the even more remote Hamburg (1768 until his death in 1788) organising the music of the city’s churches. It is difficult to describe CPE’s time in both cities as momentous, though in spite of that, he did produce some astonishing music.

CPE was the most famous and influential of all Bachs, including JSB. He got the very important position of Teleman in Hamburg. Hamburg, relatively close to powerful London where his young brother Christian Bach was pioneering classic galante style and teaching child Mozart.

⁠​⁠@@alindmay It’s debatable which of JC or CPE was the most famous during their lifetimes, but CPE’s better keyboard works in particular are very fine by any standards of any age, as are some of his other works. JC was a successful opera composer (an area into which CPE never ventured), and besides works written whilst in Italy, and after he moved to London, he was twice commissioned to write operas for Mannheim, and once for Paris, so his fame was much more pan-European than his rather more provincial North German half-brother. Your dates concerning Mozart do not fit; Mozart spent about sixteen months months in London with his father and sister between April 1764 and July 1765 during which he spent much time with JC; at the time, CPE Bach was still employed by Frederick the Great in Berlin, and did not move to Hamburg until 1768. You’re correct about the links between Hamburg and England: in 1795, due to the French wars, Haydn could not take the shorter route across the English Channel on his return home, but had to take the longer journey across the North Sea to Hamburg where astonishingly, apparently unaware of the death of CPE in 1788, he called to see him (and found only his daughter).

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Yes youre right, thanks for all that info. I am always admired how the composers dealt with so many difficulties. No electricity, no pencils, no watches.. and of course wars, illness, poor food. Everything in their lifes was so difficult. And their art was so sublime.

Not sure what is CPE Bach’s ‘tone coloration’, but pretty certain it has next to nothing to do with Beethoven.

Golden Stone You are correct: CPE has left behind him the Baroque in these works; they are composed in his very particular empfindsamer Stil and are clearly part of the early Classical style.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I have read that the empfindsamer stil and the Mannheim school were influenced by the Italian opera coming out of Napoli and Venezia. How true is that?

@@howardchasnoff208 Italian music and Italian composers were to be found in every musical centre in Europe; it therefore follows that the influences were very widely evident all over the continent, most obviously in the fact that Italian became the lingua franca of music. Italian music, or Italian-style music was played everywhere and was more widely influential than that of any other national influence. The list of 18th century composers who undertook the almost obligatory musical trip to Italy - often lasting years - is very long; so again, helps to explain the dissemination if Italian ideas. Worth noting as well that opera was until later in the century, considered the most important form of music, Naples was the most important centre of opera in the country, and it was in Italy that the best teachers were to be found. The greatest pedagogue of the age Padre Martini (1706-1784) was to be found in Bologna, and he too was a key part of the musical Italian Grand Tour itinerary - JC Bach and Mozart being two of the best known visitors. It’s also probably worth mentioning as well that every educated European from almost every country throughout the 18th century, and well beyond, undertook the Grand Tour, whose ultimate destination - wherever else it took them - was Italy. These travellers brought home with them the sights, sounds, culture, and indeed many priceless souvenirs, from il bel paese. All these factors contributed to the spread of Italian influence. One specific obvious example of a musical influence in the early Classical period would be the use of the crescendo. Whilst originating in Italy, it became very famous as the Mannheim Crescendo, or Steamroller. Some of the other stunts from the Mannheim box of tricks also had antecedents in Italy, and they emanate not just from opera, nor solely from Naples and Venice, but rather more widely - for example Sammartini’s orchestral symphonies from Milan. In the eighteenth century, Corelli was played everywhere, Handel spent a huge amount of time in writing Italian opera for London - something carried on by very Italianate JC Bach after he moved to England in 1762 - and JS Bach we know studied Italian composers such as Vivaldi very carefully. Even in North Germany, Frederick the Great’s musical establishment and opera was dominated by the Italian style or influenced by it - the list of examples is endless. CPE Bach’s music was so intensely personal and original, his empfindsamer Stil music has much less of the Italian in it than other composers of the style such as Quantz, Benda or the two Grauns. Hope that begins to answer your question.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Dear Elaine Blackhurst, You get far too little thanks for your many knowledgeable comments. I always enjoy reading them. Kind regards from Germany.

@@dieterpeszat2105 Thank you for your kind comment - it is much appreciated. The past year has given us all a little Covid-time so I have been busier than usual; I only ever comment on matters upon which I am competent to express an opinion, and am pleased that you find them useful. My last trip to Europe was in November 2019 when I visited both Milan and Berlin, I thoroughly enjoyed what was my first visit to Berlin, and was once again astonished at the excellent English of almost everyone I met. I hope to return soon. Kind regards from England.

Agreed, J.C.'s symphonies lack the complexity of C.P.E.. However, J.C.'s op 13 set of piano concerti (Ingrid Haebler's recording is the best) and his operas, particularly Amadis de Gaule are wonderful and truly unique works.

This is a sign that we've all heard a lot of Beethoven.

Yes, but Johann Christian probably wrote the most beautiful, melodic, well orchestrated operas of the second XVIIIth century. "Temistocle" is the greatest opera seria, period.

yeah C.P.E. Bach. definitely rocked Amadeus's socks off. I do remember recording a couple of harpsicord pieces off of the radio in the early 90's of Wilhelm Freidman Bach's, they were fucken sweet

The three brothers/half-brothers - actually four if you include Johann Christoph Friedrich - are entirely different musical personalities and there is little point in setting them up to make comparisons: simply enjoy the unique music of each on their own terms.