I had a fit from Neill after Cam's first video as I wasn't very comfortable. Out of all the money I spent on bikes & bits, it has been the best bang for buck improvement for me.

This is really interesting. I'm not a tall rider, and went to 165mm cranks over 20 years ago. This was prompted by the fact that I was having a custom track bike made, and Manchester velodrome had specific requirements for the BB height and crank length. I then had a road bike version of the track bike made, with the same geometry and dimensions so stuck with the 165mm. I am regularly reminded that my cadence is generally higher than most people I ride with, and that I get far lower without it feeling difficult to do. So this has totally reinforced the decision I made all those years ago, and accidentally made it even less likely that I will ever get rid of those two bikes (that are still going strong #steelisreal ).

I had a tri bike fit with Neil in Melbourne. I'm 6ft1 ex military (squatters legs) and went down to 145mm cranks. I found q factor went as narrow as was allowable. Body position ended up flat back. Rode 4:58 IM bike split on 205 watts. So comfortable. After the first week. Cranks felt normal. Torque isn't as issue as you just change gear.

Hi Cam I also changed to 165 crank sand it's been incredible difference. Less knee pain. Reduced pins and needles in the hand. Spinning feels much easier. I also feel a lot more comfortable on the bike seat 3mm back and height increase 6mm. My speed has moved up from average 32km to 34km. I also added a 440 bar with a 90 reach. I highly recommend this movement I'm also over 55 years old

I went to 165 a couple years back. Started on 172, than 170 for years, then finally switched. Just works better for me seeing how I ride in a "very low" position.

Cam, your bike fitting videos with Neil are fantastic! I really appreciate how Neil and You explain the "why". Great stuff!

Cam, I got a set of 165 mm cranks and installed them yesterday. First ride was this morning. So much easier to spin! And I was so much more comfortable. It feels very balanced.

I run shorter cranks than what many people my size would run and I will say that the shorter cranks are the way to go if you want to be aero. I actually found the shorter cranks allowed me to close down gaps better than the longer cranks because it is easier to spin up the power to close gaps. Most importantly, it has made it more comfortable which means I want to ride more. There is a study with female MTB who went from 175mm to 170mm cranks and they hit their peak power much quicker with the 170 cranks than the longer cranks. I think it torque situations, the longer cranks may be a hair better but everywhere else, the shorter cranks are better. Great video. Thank you for sharing.

Always road with 172.5 and trialed 165 length for 6 months. Noticed a considerable loss of power out of the saddle. So glad to be back to 172.5. Had considered 175 but think these are best. Think a lot of ppl are looking for an edge but best to stick with what works unless injured. Just enjoy your wheels and don’t take it too seriously.

This guy knows his stuff! Really opened my eyes.

changing from 170mm to 165mm cranks was in my mind as a solution to discomfort on the bike. I then watched your series of bikefit vlogs and decided to bite the bullet and get some 165mm cranks which ultimately ended up on my gravel bike. So now I can compare directly between my gravel bike (165mm) and my road bike (still 170mm) and I can say that the shorter crank is way better for me (please note my position on both bikes is very similar with the gravel saddle slightly higher and 'now' the same reach). My cadence has improved, there's no loss of power but the biggy is vastly improved comfort and much less muscle fatigue). So when my new road bike arrives the first thing I'll change will be to 165mm cranks.

The more I learn about cycling reveals the less I actually knew... one thing’s for certain, it’s definitely way more technical that it appears... bravo Cam! 🍻

The best things I changed in my 50years Plus cycling/racing: pro bike fit, speedplay pedals, SMP saddle and 165mm cranks ( from 172.5mm). The pedals and SMP saddle help you with comfort, but the shorter cranks added speed! Great videos Cam!

Neill has been incredible for making riding enjoyable and without injury! I've seen a few times over the years.

Changed crank length a long time ago. First form 172.5 then to 175 with the biggest benefits coming from the 175’s. I’m 6’2”. The cranks sone feel uncomfortable nor do I get knee pain. It’s enable me to spin a bigger gear hence more power. I did try 180’s once which helped me annihilate the field in a TT race. Cranks this length can’t be used in Road Races or crits though. Depending on height I would always opt for longer cranks - more leverage. Obviously there’s and an optimum and you’ve got to strike a balance

Inspired by Cam’s crank change, I did the same after decades of racing and otherwise fast riding. I’m long-waisted and short-legged, like Cam, but contrarily I raced using 175mm cranks with some success (several state TT championships during the 80s, notably Colorado and Alaska.)! I am excited by the improvements made in my position!

Thank you for the video! Please tell us more about hip impingement and how you are managing it. I think lots of cyclists have this issue and there's not enough content/awareness on the topic.

interesting... I solved the knee outward problem by moving the feet out 4mm extended axles with the clear maxed laterally toward the medial aspect.. Then put angle wedges that angle the shoe top biased toward the top tube. This had the effect of brining my knees toward the top tube. There are two ways to get around the impingement... knees out or knees in, but knees in increases power. Do a simple standing squat without shoes and have the knees move toward each other. It is a natural movement, and one can feel it very powerful. Try it...

Changed to sub compact crankset with 165mm cranks at age 64 and never looked back. I'm now 69 and continue riding in mountainous terrain with no joint problems.

The Neil guy is phenomenal. His analytics and solutions are incredible.

high school cam was an absolute unit

When I went to a Chorus 12 cassette from a Record 10 my Mechanic/fitter suggested a 170mm crank. It was amazing what a difference 2.5mm would make. At first my legs were expecting more resistance and would enter an "empty" space just before the top of the stroke. Hey, this is as good as I can do to explain it. Ultimately I'm at an energy saving smooth cadence. I feel like I'm part of the drive train and not pushing from behind.

Wow! This is a gold mine of knowledge. I am 5'8" and have been riding with 170. Now, am seriously looking at a 165.

been on 165 (down from 170) and LOVE them! being 167cm, I feel it actually should be 160 - 162.5

Agree completely! Went for a bike fitting 6 months ago and they swapped out my 172.5 cranks on my Canyon to 165. I’m 5’10” and this was perfect and all of the positive effects you mentioned I also experienced. Money well spent…

So, it's in general a good recommendation to go with shorter cranks, if you are a person that is prone to have knee problems or in general not perfect bio mechanics, because the rotation distance is shorter and your knee doesn't move up as high and your whole leg has less chance to move in an unfavorable way? I mean, in general bike manufactures even fit an 172.5mm crank on a bike frame that is aimed at people with a height from 170cm to 175cm. I don't know why they do that.

Been watching your videos for a minute now, never knew you were a rower! Cheers mate, I'm in the transition right now thanks to COVID.

Can't wait for the 2nd review!! I'm a short guy with short legs... thinking about going down 165mm to 155mm ...

I reckon the SMP looks fantastic, and everyone in-the-know knows they're brilliant saddles.

Nice video. I'm a 6'2" mountain biker and went from 175 to 165mm and it's so much better. More comfortable, better position, and less pedal strikes. It's a different situation for MTB riders, but there are definitely similarities to road riding. Happy riding!

I changed down from 172.5 to 167.5 and feeling similar results!

I ride for fitness, not race, and ride 135mm (BMX square taper) cranks. Can spin forever and never issues. I have a really short inseam (28in/71 cm) and this just makes sense. I know people hate advice from strangers but when I see people riding like a circus bear bouncing all over the saddle I want to say something.

Interesting and nice video. I started road cycling exactly 20 yrs. ago riding with 172.5 cranks. I’m 6’0 210 pds. And have a pretty good spin. 3 yrs. ago I decided to go with a longer crank 175 mm. Get this, my spin has slightly diminished because of the longer crank but my torque is outstanding. On fairly steep but short climbs I spin at a high cadence and with momentum I down shift to a harder gear and beat my buds up these climbs often and they’re at least 40 pds. Lighter than I. Even on flat surfaces I’ll hold a nice enough spin to stay with the group and right after I jump to speed I down shift & the torque propels me past them and up the road. Interest stuff indeed ✔️

Pretty much matches my experience. Technically 175 cranks fit me, but with age, injuries and decreased flexibility I felt like I was pedaling squares with longer cranks, and my overall speed and power were decreasing. Switching to 170 cranks helped. But I also found the original 172.5 cranks on my old school steel road bike were very comfy and felt significantly better than the 175. So even a seemingly minor change might help some riders. And I plan to try 165 on the one bike that still has 175, mostly to use with aero bars.

For me, it's all about feel. I got fairly long legs and with anything shorter than 175, I simply feel restricted in my leg movement. I can definitely feel the difference between 175 on my road bikes and 170 on my city commuter. I have considerably more torque but I do spin slower. Maybe a shorter crank helps in getting more aero. But I think the most important factor over a 3hr + ride is actually comfort and perceived effort for a given wattage. At least for me. And achieving that might look different depending on your build. For me, longer cranks just work better. Haven't ever tried 165s, though. I'd be tempted to give it a shot.

Can you give an short Update (Part 2) reaction 9 months later about: " how your experiment with 165 mm has developped ?" Cam Nicholls I'm wondering and would like to know what you are riding now as a prefered crank length. 1. Are the 165 mm cranks still on your bike(s) ? 2. How did they effect your performances 3. Did they avoided / cured possible (joint) injuries. Maybe that longer term info can help me decide wheter I will have to try shorter cranks too or not. Since I've experienced some knee & ankle joint pain while getting older, what I would like to solve.

Went to two bike fitters for hip and knee pain concerns and neither recommended shorter cranks - was on 172.5 which is what came stock on my bike. Went to 165mm cranks after doing my own research (I have a 29” inseam) and couldn’t be more pleased. Wish I would have kept the bike fitting $$ in my wallet and just watched more of your videos!! Now about that saddle ... 🤔

Hi Cam, I was looking to see if you had commented on your crankarm length change recently. I hope that the 165’s have been good to you. Love your channel, lots of fun to watch and informative. Cheers

going from 42cm handlebars to 38cm bars can also make a huge difference and not also for aerodynamics, it keeps your elbows in closer which allows you to keep your arms straighter which has nearly eliminated my low back pain. Wide bars will cause you to bend your back more, it seems like pro riders never bend the lower back but just have a really flexible upper-mid back which is something you're probably born with.

Your opening line is absolutely dito for me. Despite a couple of bike fits never felt at home on the bike. Changed to 170. Now thinking I didn't go low enough (was on 175). Great video as always.

Good video; thank you for putting so much time into making it so thorough. I learned the advantages of smaller cranks after adding track racing to my calendar and my track experience made me a better crit sprinter and a better climber. I would like to offer a counterargument for using smaller cranks in crits. I raced it all when I was young (crit, road, MTB, cross, track) with a focus on crits and track and there were several pros promoting shorter cranks for crits because they allow for better spinning and more pedaling through the corners due to the higher lean angles that shorter cranks yield (also why I've been riding Speedplay for 25+ years). I also felt that I could deliver more power from the saddle with shorter cranks, something that track racing helps perfect. I DO agree that the "snap" is reduced with longer cranks when you assume the same starting RPM, but in reality, you would usually start a standing sprint with a higher RPM while on shorter cranks before standing up in a standing sprint, so that's another variable making it hard to compare stand up sprinting. I did find that I liked longer cranks for steep climbs where I ran out of gear and had to stand, but shorter cranks beat the longer if I brought enough gearing to allow me to stay seated for most of the climb and spin up the hill. during my peak racing years, I had a crit bike set up with 170s, special wheels and slammed geometry and a climbing bike with a more upright position, wider bars, 175 cranks and I was pretty convinced that each was faster for me at their respective events.

Cam, thanks for the detailed video. What was new to me was the reduction in fatigue that shorter cranks can bring.

Yep, next cranks I'm going small. I'm only 5'9 anyway so it makes sense.

Can imagine hundreds of people, right now, looking on their favourite bicycle website for shorter cranks.... That's what I'm about to do 😎

Total game-changer

Currently at 1:46. You mentioned Neil's comment 'You're just going to feel alot better'. I absolutely agree with this 110%. I made the change to 165mm cranks in May after having some issues with my right knee, resulting in not being able to bare weight for a week. Riding 600+ miles every month and during April whilst in lockdown, I cycled over 1000 miles that month, cycling so much on cranks which were too long gradually got the better of my knee. First ride out on my bike with the 165s on and my saddle height increased appropriately and I remember vividly thinking, after just about 2 mins of riding 'this is alot more comfortable'. At the time I was unsure whether it could of been a placebo, maybe I wanted it to feel better so thats what I felt. But no, September I was able to cycle 1000+ miles within the month, at a faster pace (less overall moving time) and absolutely no issues with my knee. Going forward, I know that for me 165 is the number I need for my cranks because the difference was quite literally night & day.

Crank length will not change your power, just cadence. So climbing , just higher a cadence, same output. As someone who went from 175 down to 165, the big difference was less fatigue on long rides/climbs. My conclusion is; smaller circles at low watts is less fatiguing than larger circles at the same or even less cadence, when rolling along in a bunch. Also went back to 172.5, ( too many bikes!) knackering....so all my bikes now have 165mm . Also slammed stem....ref; been riding and racing 45 years, I have a rough idea as too what I am doing...ha ha . Great video's..no BS, just straight to the point...

Great video mate. I just had a proper bike fit and one of the recommendations was to move to a 165 .5 crank. I was sceptical but you have convinced me otherwise.

Always up for more Niel!

I agree medically. Here's my take on crank length (let's face it, some of are older): kzfaq.info/get/bejne/o8txipadsrfcYnk.html

Good to see the gains you've made off a good fit and some small adjustments mate. Hope the Sunny Coast is treating you well

Hey Cam great vieeo, just watching the old footage from the school gym and the ergos gave me sweaty palms! I can almost hear the whine of the flywheel

I went down from 170mm to 165mm over 12 months ago, I noticed I was spinning faster when I already spun around 90rpm, took me a while to adjust. I did a few crits with that set up and over the course of a season I went faster than I ever had in comparable races. I find that I can spin better on climbs too. I’ve since had a bike fit to tune my position on the bike, but I’m happy with 165 and wouldn’t change now. Power is down a little bit speed is higher, guess it has a little to do with being able to get more aero too. Enjoyed the vid 👍

thanks for these videos, Cam! Bike fit is a fascinating subject, and one that most bikers neglect, and unfortunately I'm on that group... I also have FAI (hip impingement) and although I can diminish it with stretches, it takes a toll in longer rides. I have a bikefit scheduled for the end of this month and hope that some adjustments can help.. changing the cranks is one option I'm considering for some time now and your videos only reinforce that idea haha now I think I gotta take a look on that saddle too lol

Wow I really am interested in this! I have had to stop riding for years because I have some serious hip tipping forward! I been searching for a cure and I'll be watching your videos!

Oh man, every time I have bought a new bike since 1996 every bike store has convinced me to take what they had on their shelf... stupid me.. now at 170cm and saving for a new crank - (thanks for the vid BTW!! great motivation to make the switch)

Horses for courses. I went to 180mm cranks (from 170mm) and race performance improved a lot. Better jump and better able to roll a big gear on rough roads. Cornered better in crits as well, I don't know why. But Freddy Maertens used to ride 165mm and he was definitely quick! I think the thing is, 172.5mm is probably not the best, whoever you are, so try the extremes and see how it goes.

Cool to see the old footage of your rowing and lifting days.

Wanting to choose my crank length is my second reason (after because tinker) for wanting to build my next bike from scratch. Thanks for this video. [I'm not sure it's the women you need to apologize to for talking about crushed nuts...]

Great video, thanks. I'm proportioned with short legs and long torso, and with deep hips to boot, so the 172.5mm cranks that came with the right sized frame just never felt good. This has convinced me to seek out some cheapo 165mm to test.

I've always had the issue where when I feel lie the saddle is at the perfect height, the saddle then becomes painful and I'm rocking so have always lowered the saddle beyond where it should be and naturally this leads to some knee discomfort and restricted movement/breathing. So I started looking for solutions and arrived at shortening the crank from 170mm to 165mm. My new crank is in the post but after watching so many videos including this one, I think it's the right solution. ]

Loved it! So glad to see your notification!

Great video, and good job explaining the practical effect along with your expert bike fitter.

The power and speed information is very interesting and makes sense. If you look at someone like Cavendish, whose top end power has never been massive; he peaks at about 1500W, but someone like Andre was putting out 1800W+, but Can has much better aerodynamics in comparison to others. Therefore, he can go just as fast but with less power.

My cranks are 163mm, 48T front and 19T at the rear. I ride fixed, I have a degenerative neurological-physical impairment. Riding fixed helps me. Newly subbed.

I don’t agree with the big change method. Switched from 172.5 to 170 and noticed a big difference in cadence and pedal smoothness.

I used 165mm on a new fixed gear bike after using 172.5 on my road bike. 165mm for me felt like im not utilizing my muscles, so I swapped it to a 170. Im size 54, and I feel 170 is the winner for me. Put spacers on though to widen the Q factor, thats inspired by your vids. Thanks!

Fascinating. Thank you for a great video about your experience so far 🚲👍

Shorter crank set saved my knees.

I totally relate to you mate. I'm a muscular cyclist too and my aerodynamic profile is not ideal. Chicks love the guns though haha

Im waiting for my new crank 165mm, currently use 170mm and I am facing the same problems that you have mentioned in the video (able to ride between 32-35kmh in long distance ride but never felt comfortable). I am 165cm tall and I am excited to try the new crank after saw this video. Thanks a lot Cam Nicholls!.

Thanks for your input and I will look into my mobility issues on my rig. Stay bless!

Have watched less then a minute and 165cm crank is the track crank length. You should be fine, in my view.!!

I switched to 165mm cranks a couple years ago. My friend is 6'8" (I think) and rides 170mm cranks. Based on that ratio, someone my height (5'9") should be on 146mm cranks. The converse is that if 165mm is "small" for me, then a 190mm crank would be equally small for a 6'8" rider. I think people just don't realize how narrow the range of crank-length choices is, compared to the relatively wide range of human body size and leg length.

I have a 165mm set in a box on my kitchen table... will be installing them tomorrow or the day after. That was pretty interesting about moving the seat BACK. I'm going to schedule another fit session but until that can happen... that's a nice little tidbit of info.

Solid humblebrag about the massive chest and arms! My rower-upper body left me almost as soon as I put the boat in the rack in ‘04. And for some reason I just can’t seem to convince my wife that I used to have muscles! Now, I’ll have to think about shortening the cranks from the 200mm I’ve had the last few years...maybe I’ll get some aero gains from going to 190?

I have 29" inseam. Always had 170 cranks. Swapped to 165 recently and the difference is so obvious I cant believe I didn't think of it before. It feels like I am managing my peddling now where as before it felt like I was doing large ovals. I have a controlled circle now and it feels much more well ...normal. Only 5mm but my knees seem considerably lower at top of stroke.

Great vlog this Cam. Really interesting and it shows what a difference a quality bike fit can make to riding. Probably the best bang for your buck if done right. Looking forward to part two and the power data. Thanks for sharing the journey.

Super interesting, great resource! I opted for 165mm a few years back after getting leg/back pain and trying to dial in a fit. I did some reading at the time, but pain stopped so it's mostly left my head. it's great to hear even more info about that choice which is my go to :-)

Nice video Cam and super informative.

your dog wanted to go out. great series here, thank you for this info packed production.

Excelente información, siempre me pregunte como configuraron las bicicletas de los profesionales, los veo pedalear y a penas se mira que mueven las piernas, " bielas cortas ", bueno que la cadencia se eleva, pero el desgaste muscular es menor por lo que hay mayor resistencia, Excelente video, saludos de Guatemala.

...liquid gold, dude! thanks!

Wow wayyyy better on the bike

Really enjoying your videos. Entertaining and informative.

How tall are you and inside leg length? Didn't catch it the clip if you said. I'm 5'6" with 29" inside leg, & switched down to 160mm cranks about 4 years ago and not looked back since because I derived all 5 benefits you mentioned in clip. 165 seems to be the smallest standard size with the main makes, went with Rotor for the wider range of crank lengths. Stem is Ritchey adjustable, pushed to almost max downwards, so my hands are below the top of the front wheel in the drops! Found your clip interesting and validating, so thanks for making it.

What i,ve heard is that leg lenght also plays a big part. If u have short legs then the range of motion is also smaller then someone with long legs. There was a spreadsheet somewhere, and with my 65cm inner leg length they advice 160mm crank lenght.

Loved the video. 👍 I have 165mm cranks and always ride at 105-110rpm most of the time. I must agree muscle fatigue is far far less. However you have to get used to the higher BPMs which took me 5-6months to get used to and be comfortable.

brilliant vid , cam . very informative

I told you I'd try to adapt to the 165s and see what happened. As it turned out I put the cranks on and some medical issues came up and I was off the bike for a few weeks, all good now though, so, here are a few initial impressions. Cadence did increase but I noticed that it takes longer to warm up. I think that's inline with needing to get the cardio online because that system takes a bit more time to get ready. I can sprint with basically no warmup. My overall power hasn't dropped at all but my average power seems a bit down. Could be because I'm taking that longer warmup. Because I've taken some time to get the setup where I want it and the other things, I'm ready to give another strategy a try. I'm going to hit some strava segments that I'm familiar with and require different techniques. Some are short hard bursts out of the saddle and some are longer efforts done almost entirely in the saddle. Then of course I'll do a mixed route that typically takes about an hour. Standing seems somewhat easier. We'll see.

I experience everything both of you talked about ever since I went to 165mm on my R7000 50-34 on an 11-30. I’ve been comfortable spinning and I use cardio and not of my leg muscles. I find when I hide my head about shoulder level I can pedal easier when maintaining speed or gain when doing efforts. I also went from a size 52 CAAD12 to a 50 when a motor bike crashed and wrecked my left seat and chain stay when the radiator clipped it last July 12, 2020. I have a Prologo Dimension 143 NDR positioned forward and tilted to reduce pressure down under 😅. I did have to raise the height a bit after I changed my frame. I didn’t slam my stem like before yet but I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to handle it if ever I decide to do it again. I’m still waiting for the right stem and bar combo for me and I’m observing if I won’t feel more fatigued on this setting. I have my 90mm -6 degree stem with 400mm compact bar. I felt that I curled a little bit on the bike and I feel like I can still go 1 frame size lower. The bike did feel nimbler.

When I use to use 170mm cranks I would end up dead after 100km, with the shorter cranks I can pedal 320km for the same energy I would use before

I find the 165 mm works well for me. Also being able to pedal while cornering without risk of contacting the road ( 10.5 inches BB height ) is a nice perk too.

Great videos Cam. You can also look at the SQlab saddles.

So in summary, Neill suggest laying off the tim-tams and VB then he'll have a look to see what you really need to focus on, right? lol 😂

Looking forward to see in "Part 2" how your power numbers have changed. Especially I'm curious to see how much your maximum power and 5 seconds or 30 seconds power have gone down together with going down from normal 172,5 to 165mm short cranks. Also I'm curious what is faster to use during out of the saddle low cadance high gear climbing . You can easily test this on a smart home trainer. On ZWIFT or any indoor cycling activity it doesn't matter if you are more AERODYNAMIC on the bike since it only takes the power numbers into account. Power is a combination of the force you can output on the pedal multiplied by the crank length wich acts as a lever. So a shorter crank and shorter lever means your force is multiplied by a shorter 165mm lever in stead of 172,5mm. That will result in a lower power output on the axle at the same cadance. Wich only can be compensated by pedalling in higher cadance. Normally also adding shims under the shoes wich raise the stack height don't improve pedal efficiency. That's why shoe manufacturers especially speedplay specific shoes try to keep their sole stack height as low as possible. Also regarding the fact that the bike fit put your saddle more backward normally won't improve pedalling efficiency either. Fi on time trial bikes saddles are put more forward and riders sit on the front of the saddle to cycle faster. So. Afterall I suspect on 165 mm with shims and the saddle more backward certainly in zwift you will be slower especially during low cadance intervalls with the pro of being more comfortable and have a bit less risk of knee injury. If that more comfort at the cost of probably less watts is what you are looking for then I understand the change. Good luck with your experiment

On 165 now and love them. With a 29.5 inch inseam - I’m wanting to try shorter 160’s but finding them isn’t as easy. Manufactures need to make and effort to catch up with the new evidence. Still waiting to hear back from Wahoo on if it will even be possible to install 160 cranks on my Kickr bike.

have 175mm love them, never changed them.

Due to my femoroacetabular impingement (FAI), I had my hip surgery 5 years. Dropping my crank arm to 165mm has definitely benefits my ride comfort since then. The main issue is I also need to stay on a high riding position. I need to fix Specialized riser bar on top of my 20mm spacers as I cannot bring my right hip anyway close to my chest. Being slammed on my ride can only happen in my dreams. Thank you, Cam and Neil!

No hate on the Selle Smp my fitter pointed me in that direction because of a messed up SI joint. Best move I have made for pain relief, and he doesn’t sell Selle Smp by the way for those who think fitters are only trying to make an extra dollar or two.