I wouldn't read that. There's a lot of armor manufacturers out there that supply NIJ certified armor to anyone who pays, even through distributors. And to the average civvie, NIJ certification doesn't have a hard test to pass. It matters much more to government buyers, where NIJ certification with regards to body armor is *mandatory* through policy or law.

@@damienblackburn5459so yea, the government hates when civilians have what they have, I agree with the first commenter.

@@kamehamehaX300 Congrats, you missed my point entirely.

@@damienblackburn5459 what is your point? It’s unclear. You listed facts, but what’s your point? I made my point; that we need everything the military has.

@@kamehamehaX300 The military doesn't have this. They don't use NIJ certs, they use SAPI. The point I made was very clear: there's loads of armor companies out there that provide NIJ certified armor already. This isn't a conspiracy. A lot of the response I've heard from the head of RMA has me concerned. Sure, there's some fuckiness from CJTEC and the NTL, but his response is also quite bizarre.

Whats funny is that it was also the best for a while. Still is imo.

@@Im_TheSaint best for price maybe but best other than that? of course it's not lol

It’s important to note that they failed this year, prior years are fine so if you own any older ones they’re probably fine.

Correct. This plate has passed every FIT since it's certification. Well except for now the one in Jan.

Wouldn't want us affordably defending ourselves against tyranny!

Are you sure? They're pretty stern that they're always here to help.

@@BuffRANGE Depends on how a person interprets the word "help"

I thought it was kool that he named the company after his 3 daughters. Tells me what kind of man he is.

@@user-cv8qe9ru8c Oh absolutely! He's a family man, through-and-through.

Where did you get your m855a1 from????

Where u get at m855a1 at tho

i wouldn't count on it. the M855A1 will likely only penetrate if the plate is weakened from several shots beforehand from a different caliber

@@Hawaiianbro10 Officially M855 is to "pierce hard targets" not to be "AP" but "Hard targets" and "AP" are relatively similar terms. Plywood and drywall will not stand up to a 5.56 unless it's quite a few layers, and if you're shooting through 15 layers of plywood I guess my question is what the fuck are you doing? What situation are you in?

​@@Hawaiianbro10 you can, just check gunbroker every once in a while. There's some on there right now for $2.50/rd if you live in a free state. Same seller also has M80A1, running out fast though

That's a very good question. I am not aware of any policy or quality standards set forth that the NIJ has for labs to be compared against.

Being certified really doesn't matter as long as they're tested to the NIJ spec IMO. All the NIJ certification proves is that the company paid the government for permission to put a certification sticker on the website

@@psychopathmedia Not really true. There's a lot more to NIJ testing than that. They have to undergo a battery of tests, including drop, temperature, and ballistic. The manufacturer is also subject to Follow-up Inspection Testing, where someone from NIJ comes out every 6-10 months and pulls a set of plates for ballistic testing, along with checking their documentation, quality control standards, materials records, and more. It ensures that the product that you put forward for testing is the same one that the consumer is getting, rather than someone pulling a fast one and sending something much different for testing and getting something else, as we've seen a few armor companies do.

They really don't do follow up testing unless the company requests it.

Thanks again!

He's not corrupt. Government agencies are......

Yeah if the choice is between a KZfaq channel and the US government, I'll choose the KZfaq channel

@nsf001 hope you are being sarcastic. Government wants you to think everything they do is better

@@fujimi715 That was my point; governments are less trustworthy than KZfaq channels in almost all cases

Mr. GunsandGear did the same test and crazy enough, SAME RESULTS! Weird... maybe the gubment is trying to trick us... Nah, they'd never do that!

Yep. Currently emailing back and forth.

Yep. Currently emailing back and forth.

I'm requiring that all shots be taken from the slav squat position

They do. You are free to send a representative to observe the testing.

I don't have any RMA plates but I'd probably still buy them if I didn't already have a set of III and IV plates. My IIIA vest is BulletSafe which has a bad rep but the version I have is officially NIJ certified even though I doubt it's any different from the older model in practice. Being certified really doesn't matter as long as they're tested to the NIJ spec IMO. All the NIJ certification proves is that the company paid the government for permission to put a certification sticker on the website

There could be a pretty bad mixup since this has never seemed to have happened before, or the NIJ is seeing something that RMA doesn't, or there's more to the story than what has been painted so far for public eyes.

The M2AP load originated in 30-06. However in order to achieve 2,880 fps, the lab uses a universal receiver and can easily hit target velocities without exceeding cartridge pressure maxes. I can't, so I use that same bullet and I load it in .300 Win Mag. The cartridge used to deliver the bullet to the target doesn't make a difference. It's the bullet itself and the spec'd velocity :D

He explained it. He needed velocity that 30-06 can't give you.

@@BuffRANGE Thanks - if you'll please excuse my persistence, I don't understand what a universal receiver has to do with it. What cartridge case do the NIJ labs use? A .30-06 case but loaded to a higher than spec pressure? How/why did they come up with a threat spec (2880 fps with an M2AP bullet) which doesn't exist in real life?

@@sbreheny I'd have to ask them, but I'm guessing .30-06. They handload every single one of these to meet spec. They likely came up with 2,880 because it represents a worst case scenario. If a plate stops said threat that speed, there's no variables in real life that would cause a penetration at an engagement distance? IIRC the original M2AP spec was like 2,750 at 78'. Don't remember if that was from a 1903 or M1G..

@@BuffRANGE Thanks!

Gosh dang bugs!

Thanks!

I almost side with the fact that the lab made a mistake and they had no way to take a corrective action, and the NIJ just went with it.

Many thanks!

The reports that RMA shared from NIJ showed no material or process variation . At this point RMA has an appeal with the AG and they will likely recertify the 1155 under NIj 07.

@@BuffRANGE Do you have a link for RMA's shared reports indicating that the NIJ concluded there were no other issues? Would like to see it as we are planning to purchase several dozen plates before the end of the year.

@@VortexLimbuslet me see if I can find them. They were on their website. Do you have pics of the M855 pen on the 1155 you shot? I just finished the 1165 demo and that’s a definite upgrade over the 1155. I’ll have to get the video finished.

rmadefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Exhibit-C2.jpg And rmadefense.com/rma-vehemently-disagrees-with-nij-safety-notice-05-2023-to-level-iv-model-1155/

@@BuffRANGE I do but I don't want to get in the middle of all this. Thanks for the links. We like RMA and just wanted to see what the resolution was. Unfortunately, we have to follow the advice of the NIJ when selecting our products. We have talked about the 1165. The backing on that plate allows upper 30s and low 40s mm on shot 2, not sure we want to go with a thinned out backing plate. Someone showed me an NIJ lab test report on that model and it was basically a two shot plate with shot 2 almost hitting the 44mm max. I am not sure if it could routinely pass a drop test with so little protection on the strike face. Looking forward to your next video on it. I think we would rather have a "corrected" 1155 with the NIJ stamp.

Very!

​ @BuffRANGE that is the longest residual flame i've seen yet! so satisfying!

@@drewwood2941 It's why I love that stuff!

That would be evident during FIT that raw materials changed.

They work though.

I just got one in. It’ll be a bit. They don’t have edge to edge strike face.

At times yes. Sometimes there's a line where I don't feel comfortable pushing the .308 load that hot, so I just upgrade to 300 WM :D

There isn’t one. You’d likely need a 1/2” thick piece of RHA at min.

That would be something close to 70 or 80 pounds I think. There's a reason steel didn't catch on in the age of firearms.

I agree :D

The NIJ spec'd the velocity at 2,880 fps. Given I don't have a .30-06 with a barrel long enough to get to the target velocity, and surplus ammo has degraded over time, I'm effectively using .300 Win Mag as a universal .30 caliber receiver. 300 Win Mag can drive M2AP up to 3,300 fps in a 24" barrel, and yes that threat is very unrealistic, and only very high end plates stop that. TL:DR ignore the case I am using the bullet in. The NIJ level IV/RF3 threat calls for an M2AP bullet going 2,880 fps. How I get that target velocity has no bearing.

On paper they should be like the Highcom 4s17m but a little better. I haven’t tested them yet.

It all depends on the IIIA type. I would say the min would probably be 1600-1700 fps on Aramid, but PE might require in excess of 2000 fps...

@@BuffRANGE thanks! I shot a few test loads yesterday and got them up to 1875 fps...which is about the max that I personally care to try. 350 ft-lbs seems like a good number to stay under, imo. They sure did group nicely...even though very small sample. I think the 37 gr Makers might be the better pistol option for that bullet eXpanding design, but need to put them into gel to compare. I have doubts about the 45 gr TSX opening in clear-gel, but need to put that to the test. I saw your video with the 53 gr TSX didn't really open well. Maybe from the rifle 45 gr will? TBD. I just got a box of the R&R 37x yesterday and have a couple boxes of the 37 gr Maker's X to try my own loads, but R&R I'm guessing is already up in that velocity I'd probably not go much beyond, if at all. So my loads would really just be to see if I can either beat the accuracy, and/or not have to wait 2-3 months to get a box.

which covers? the fabric covers? or the backing material? I pretty much toss these things in the trash when I'm done with them.

@@BuffRANGE the RMA branded fabric plate covers

@@40utub3any particular reason you want them?

@@BuffRANGE nothing comes to mind. I trust the RMA brand and what it stands for, and would just place them on the safe door with some corny caption to STAY IN THE FIGHT

​@@40utub3that sounds dumb

Puff the Magic Dragon!

Voodoo Plates look a LOT like LongFri plates and even the NIJ cert one they have in level III is LongFri.. Guardian gear also lists the same LongFri Level III plate. One could very well ASSUME that both Voodoo and Guardian source their plates from the same place, and are just private labeled.

@@BuffRANGE are they decent plates I watched a video in the guardian gear plates and they held up well against 30cal ap rounds do you have any idea how thick they are and I would just order longfri but there level iv plates are 9.5 by 11.5

@@BuffRANGE what about the level iv plates the guardian gear and voodoo level iv plates almost seem the same to me I dunno what plates to get was looking at the lighter shellback level iv plates voodoo valor guardian gear or the shadow armor systems can’t decide what I want haha

5th Gear ;)

H380?

​​@@BuffRANGEhogdon h380. It has a reference on the label for 30-06 with 175gr bullet. max charge on the bottle says over 2900fps. My test velocity of 1 shot was 2991 with a black tip. Primer started to flatten out, so its definitely on the top end, but not something id sh!t myself about. Brass looks fine.

Gave it a try since i dont have a 300wm. Old surplus went about 2770fps like your tests show.

@@Milspecpoptartthanks for the info :).

I would also take into consideration that if the NIJ says they or the lab messed up, how many other companies are going to come after them? They have a lot on the line as well.

Rightfully so. The physical evidence presented seems to show RMA's plate per FIT did not fail (backface is not tested for FIT), and a mistake has been made. If the gov't has evidence to prove otherwise it seems poor for them to not end the entire years worth of back and forth. It sounds like this is going to end up going to court.. I'm curious if you would expand on "Unstable damage control". They pulled the lot from the initial issue. Ran numerous tests on plates to ensure their design is sound. NIJ root cause analysis deemed there was no variation of manufacturing or materials. The plate has passed FIT every time since it's inception.

@@cc-vg4ed the NIJ has representatives and “subcontract” out the lab testing to accredited labs. These accredited labs are expected to be technologically equipped and capable of conducting scientific tests, and is a third party laboratory that is neutral with no ties and affiliation with clients, companies, organizations…etc. Then you have NVLAP, maybe a few others. I don’t think we can exactly say the NIJ themselves are potentially the ones to blame when you have specialized entities that that flows in the armor testing system. If the NIJ themselves really are to blame then they will be, however if the snag is actually somewhere else? Then what? I wouldn’t put all my bets that RMA is going to be clean, as we haven’t heard any sort of official statement on the matter from the NIJs side. It’s difficult to draw any picture if we only have the story from one side.

How does government cock taste? That's the only question that comes to mind when I see sad sad people humping the leg of the NIJ like this. The NIJ is, and always has been, a corrupt government clown show. The internet obsession with "NIJ certified" has been the hands down worst thing that ever hit the body armor industry.

Business cooperation with who ? I only test ballistic materials.

I’m sorry I talk a lot sometimes if that’s what you meant

I'm trying to get my hands on some..

@BuffRANGE dude thanks for the reply. I have a set of gt2 and HA plates that I got in 21 before I knew any better. I hate to eat that loss, but I need something I can rely on now. Hopefully you'll get a set to test.