This explains the earthquake this morning! Must've been a million Fudds stomping their feet, knowing with 100 % fuddlore certainty what's gonna happen.

Tune in next week when Willard runs with scissors.

Cap & Ball torture

Where people get into trouble is when they load smokeless with a black powder measure and fill the cylinder 😮

US Navy powder bags for the old battleships had quilted black powder patches on the front side to ensure good ignition of the smokeless.

Italian replicas have their barrels proofed for smokeless. You can use factory ammo with cartridge conversion cylinders.

Great video. It did not suck. As a result there is no need to make my own damn video.

You're right about artillery using BP to set off the real charge--in fact, that's *exactly* what Goex is formulated for (Brett Gibbons is an Ordnance Dept. officer and he talks about this in his video about BP). I saw an article on a web site years ago from a guy who talked about how to develop a smokeless load for BP weapons, so I knew this could be done safely, but I think the real issue is that we have to tell people not to do it to keep some Gomer from overdoing it, and I *know* for a fact, have seen the test results showing it, that heavier charges can blow up revolvers, splitting the chambers wide open. But you always have to tailor everything to the lowest common denominator, and it's easier to say "you can't do this" than it is to say "well, you can do this if you're careful, and if your weapon is in good shape, and if your weapon doesn't have a tiny flaw (which we don't test for because it won't matter if you use it the way we said to), etc., etc. Besides, BP is just more fun! Nice to see you continuing to cause people's heads to explode, however--you do love stirring the shit! I am *not* however, going to read the comments below, though, because I'm not sure my blood pressure meds will be able to handle that.

Remember folks, Jake is the guy who showed us that the "pipe Bomb" theory was bullshit too.

When smokeless powder was introduced, the priming compounds of the time didn't work ideally. 22 match ammo for example was not so accurate with smokeless. They found that if they mixed the ingredients of both black and smokeless into something called semi-smokeless or the trade name Lesmok, they got clean, uniform burning and only a little more powder fowling than straight smokeless.

EBP, I figured out why you shoot these type of loads left handed. In case it goes sideways you don't want to lose your dominant hand. 😆😎

4.5 gn of Unique sounds like a mild load in 9mm Para with a 124 gn bullet. In .38 SPL, with 148 grain wadcutters, anything much slower than "Bullseye" will NOT burn fully. As the primer goes off and the powder starts to "ignite" the bullet moves forward, ESPECIALLY the polymer-coatedtype. This effectively increases the combustion-chamber volume ans LOWERS pressure. In turn, quite a lot of the initial tiddly powder charge does NOT ignite; it just leaves unburned powder all over the insides of the gun. Years ago I had a Smith and Wesson Model 52; the semi-auto .38 SPL wadcutter target pistol. With Unique, I just got a gun full of unburned powder and bullets downrange. All that detritus simply slowed the cycling to the point it stopped functioning. After a few "interesting" range sessions. I came to the conclusion that the best powder would be a "fast" one. They don't get much faster than "Bullseye". It was a revelation. Consistent velocities, reliable operation and hits on the 25yd target: WINNER. SO...... How far down the cylinder do you ram the balls? If the powder is sloshing around in that comparatively large .44 chamber, I can understand why ignition with pure smokeless is "erratic", at best. How "hot' re the specified "percussion caps, compared to center-fire pistil primers? LOTS of variables in the air in this project. BUT, somebody had to ask..............And here you are!

I was really surprised you never thought to use filler. I use used coffee grounds to fill up the empty space. Then the ball seats normally and holds the powder in place - even more important with these duplex loads. Also seating the ball that deep means it has a big jump before it hits the rifling - so accuracy probably was not great.

"You woke up and decided to piss off the internet?" "Yeah." "I'm here for it!" Sounds like something my Brother would say. Ahh, Brothers are the best.

I think this lore is mainly a holdover from when people were still getting used to smokeless. People would try to load smokeless like black powder - just fill the chamber and cram the bullet on top. You'd get 20-30 grains of smokeless and that will indeed blow the thing up. On the other hand, if you use about the same quantity of smokeless as you would in a similar-volume cartridge, it should be able to handle it. Put some filler on top to keep the powder down by the flash hole and that should get it to go off. Now, I'd only try that in a modern repro that's in good shape. But it's definitely not impossible.

Smokeless them if you got 'em ... Good day to all.

I want to thank you all for another interesting and informative video! I have seen people have success with 5 gr. Of clays with corn meal filler,but no crony to check velocity. Thanks again! 👍🤠

Maybe paper cartridges would be a little more convenient with a duplex load? It would load faster anyway.

Interesting. I sure don't intend to do this, but it's still interesting.

Harnessing your inner Elmer Keith, huh? I can dig. ^.-.^

ignition issues: use a filler (cotton fluff for example) between the projectile and the cap. It'll keep the powder against the cap for ignition inside the chamber.

Ok, here's your new motto, "Doing the crazy shit so you don't have to" Keep it comkng, I love it

Loved the intro :) Brilliant discussion with evidence - all the things that make your presentations infinitely watchable... learning along the way :)

Excellent video as always Jake thanks

I've seen videos where they stuffed unbelievable amounts of black in a rifle and the results were a tremendous amount of recoil, enough to break the stock in the fixture it was in, but no damage to the barrel itself. I've also seen a demonstration of how dangerous it is to put smokeless powder in a black powder rifle. It took a ridiculous amount of smokeless powder to blow up that rifle, but when it did finally blow, it was catastrophic, a bomb to say the least. I'm not going to try either, but many old black powder rounds were and still are loaded with smokeless powder. To agree with you, I think it's all common sense, how much of which.

I came in late, but caught most of the experiment. Interesting! Was thinking that perhaps a cream of wheat filler might help those deep seated loads. Thanks for the non sucky video, Jake!!

Thank You! You have answered a lot of questions! Good work, keep up the testing.

I love the banter between you and your brother!

Absolutely great piece!

Im shocked and distraught. Gunpowder in a gun shoots perfectly fine... My uncle's brother's buddy had a roommate in the 70s whos grandad shot a lot of BP and he said smokeless powder would never work in a gun!!!!

What I found to be cool about this was that it kept the revolver a lot cleaner than if full black powder was used. So, the smokeless did its job. When you got the process figured out, the little bit of black behind the larger charge of smokeless and tight seating the ball, well, that was a load that was up where .38 Special and .45 ACP are operating. Not too shabby!

I have always wondered about mixing smokeless and black powder in a C&B revolver. I throughly enjoyed this video. Thank you for making and sharing it!

I had an old Iver Johnson 16 gauge Shotgun I picked up at a swap n shop, the guy I bought it off of knew nothing about it, it was in rough shape. I went to Cabella's and bought some 16 gauge #7 target load, and put many rounds through the old gun.. I took it to a buddy of mine, who has a firearm training school (yes we have them in Canada). Anyways, he had a friend of his there on this day, who knew old & classic firearms, and told me that it was an made between 1909 & 1919 black powder rifle, and I was incredibly lucky it didn't blow up on me.

You are spot on with your thinking. Ido that all the time with BP subs, use 2-3 grains of BP to ignite a stubborn charge. I am currently testing a variant of commercial Blue MZ, a sodium benzoate fuel based powder, which i call Grey MZ. Dextrin in the Blue is replaced with NC lacquer at 8-9% as binder in the Grey. I add 3% charcoal to the benzoate to improve ignition. 28 gr of Grey MZ blew up the cylinder on my Remington Sheriff, but examination showed the cylinder was a casting (Pietta). 30-35gr of Grey MZ through the ROA will give 1000+ fps with conicals and it digests these loads with ease. Thing about what we are getting into with these type of loads, low pressure in a BP revolver chamber. Load these in cartridges and ignition and velocity dramatically improve. Screw the naysayers...never know till you try

Not just naval guns but all artillery rounds. blackpowder is used to ignite the smokeless powder. Keep in mind that the grains size of the smokeless powder is about the size of your little finger nail cubed

BRING ON THE CHAOS!

WELL DONE Jake .. So far the comments are sensible & lacking the expected outrage eh. You reminded me of 'LESMOK' that was used mostly as a .22 Rimfire load from around 1900 up to 1947 - a semi-smokeless mix of BP with 10-20% nitrocellulose - so it has all been done before by professionals. I guess the "issue" mostly is in the variables such as old weak guns and WEAK BRAINS that lack caution and not so common COMMON SENSE ?

I believe artillery uses the Siberian method a bit of blackpowder to set off the regular propellant.

I love the hype man behind the camera

I love that someone actually tested this out, I can’t see a practical reason to load this way but I do see the appeal of getting 800+ fps out of 1/3rd the total powder you’d normally need to launch a .44 round ball. So maybe a good thing to know in a powder shortage

Get the smokeless down near the flash hole and keep it there and it will light. With that said, Popcorn is ready! :)

Wow man, my dad said they did that smokeless behind black up in the mountains of Colorado, where it could would and did get down to -30. Dad also ran modern magnum shotgun shells in an old LeFever Damascus barrel black powder shotgun. My uncle f'ed the barrel up more with a car door than my dad ever did. Dad may have broken an internal part, or it could have be metal fatigue. The flat springs do look crystallized and the tips are gone. Now to piss you off. My other uncle was running coyote traps and found an old cap and ball up in the east Utah high desert when he checked to see what metal item the tie & drag chain had hit in the grass. For all you PETA people, loads of those leghold traps were stamped US government property.

Thank you for thinking outside the box, and taking reasonable risks to help us all know more about our guns and what they can do. I agree that the deviation in fps is probably from the ball moving forward a smidge and loosing a little compression. Yes they do still use a little bp in naval gun charges.

@Everything Black Powder Guys, thank you for all your work and sharing, I really do appreciate it. When you were evoking the pain to layer the two different powders, I was wondering if when equal parts it wouldn't work reasonably well to just have the mixed beforehand, you know... less work and all that.

I have never needed anything stronger than 777s in cap locks. I would say try this with trail boss, but i think trail boss went out of business. ... on a side note, thats a pretty cool old truck, and i think it would be great if you would show it to us sometime. Great video, as always !

Theory....... The tiny hole in the nipple limits the flash to the extent that the smokeless won't ignite. The flash hole in a metallic cartridge is much larger. The ball cannot be pushed into the cylinder far enough to take up the air space and put the powder right near the priming flash. I did read many years ago that the Brits did this with fairy dust but used a filler to hold the powder at the back of the cylinder. To generate the full performance and MV of BP, smokeless would need over twice the peak pressure, and that might damage the pistol. I have seen a Remington taken apart by a full charge of smokeless... the Utuber "Cap'n'ball" did a video on it. Not sure what the powder was from memory..... The big "Kaboom" seems to be the product of a full charge of smokeless which would be an overload in a cartridge such as a 45 Colt in any case. A thought occurs.... why not blend a bit of smokeless with the BP, use normal charges (say up to 25) so loading would be easy and run very clean....

I have never posted on your site before but have been watching you guys for quite a while now. Got to say, I have learned more from your experiments and testing than any other source. Fact be known, I modeled my powder processing on all the time and hard work you guys put in to making a powder that is as good, or better than what you can buy, it works!!! Thanks so much for the time yall put in to give all of us an alternative to buying BP that is now so expensive, if you can even get it. I can tell you here in Texas, a pound of Swiss is not even available in any shop, and if you buy it online with the hazmat shipping charge it will cost you $75 or better for a pound! I have recently switched to brass media in my tumbler and man what a difference! So much cleaner than lead balls. Again, thanks so much for your willingness to give your knowledge freely!

One thing I would try is coating the unique with BP dust (5f plus powder) then load just the "coated"

Love the Chevy Big Window! one of my Fav's! Brother!!!

great experiment, learned alot i figured it'd either squib or blow up. glad it didnt blow up on ya man! beautiful truck too! such a vibe blackpowder shooting in the old school pickup

The first mix was spicy looking, and it looked awesome

You did better than other attempts I’ve seen at trying to duplex load blackpowder/smokeless. Usually either not enough velocity or getting into explosive cylinder range. I guess the powder/caliber choice. 861 fps is great, but I think I would prefer to overload blackpowder, as far as safety is concerned.

Well ACTUALLY Colt DID experiment with a 44 1851 and at least one prototype was indeed made. I have an extensive collection of Italian clones including a couple of "fantasy" guns. Great vid Jake. You are a better man then I :)

So normally I look at unique as something relatively easy to ignite and volume agnostic (I run 12g of unique in a 45-70 case, which means tons of empty space). But of course that's with a far stronger primer. I think that you're right on the powder speculation: Something super fast and again relatively volume agnostic (bullseye, titegroup, etc) might be easier to ignite, and therefore produce better results. Interesting results, most of my reloading is with more forgiving powders that don't care as much about primers and this sort of thing refocuses my attention to how primers can impact things that I normally don't pay much attention to.

The guy that taught me how to blackpowder shoot used to use 2400 in his .54 as a deer load....he always said 2400 had the same pressure curve as black powder when loaded to the same velocity with the same bullet.....dunno how much truth there was to that theory but considering i have that rifle now it didn't do it any harm

To prevent the powders from mixing, maybe try some paper between them. Either treated or rolling paper so it burns up.

My experience with unique has always been that it likes compression. The more compressed it is, the cleaner and more efficiently it burns.

You threw away the ring of lead? 1 billion of those and you could cast another lead roundball…

Excellent video. Love to see a follow up with an inline rifle using modern primers. Maybe copy 50-70 loads and seat the projectile with the same depth as the cartridge. All the destruction testing I've seen with muzzle loaders used wildly inappropriate loads for even a modern rifle.

As usual a brilliant video , informative, intelligent and fun ,what BP shooting is all about ,thanks Jake

You should be out there busting more of these myths. Should make a video about how easy it is to scratch the barrel with the ramrod without a bore guide

Duelest 1954 (Mike ) did an episode on goex being the mil spec for artillery bag charge ignition powder . I think all big guns still work that way .

Of course smokeless powder can be used in a black powder firearm if the loading is done such that the maximum chamber pressure is within normal range for the weapon. If you follow a standard 45LC smokeless cowboy loading and seat the ball at the proper depth, it should work fine. The problem is if too much powder is added or the bullet is seated to far down in the chamber, the pressure will be too high and cause the gun to explode. No black powder is needed for that to work. I've seen it done using an inert filler on top of the powder and using an air gap with the bullet depth carefully measured. It worked both ways. As a rule, the average dumb person who tries that will blow their hand off, which is why people say NAY, NAY, don't use smokeless powder....

Great stuff Jake! Keep it up!

%0 years ago when in school a friend had a 36 caliber cap and ball revolver he shot with red dot. If I remember right he put wadded up toilet paper on top of the powder then seated the ball. I recall that it always went off. It has been to long to recall the load but being young and dumb we got away with it.

Don't you guys know that doing that will cause your kids to be born nekid? I know a guy who does this and I have even tried it myself using the same loads he uses (2.5 gr Bullseye .380 ball 36 caliber) but I just don't want to risk it, if I intend to use smokeless loads in my BP revolver I will use a conversion cylinder and it's stronger steel. Even just 2.5 to 3 gr Bullseye and a round ball can make a lot of pressure so I personally won't be doing that anymore, still you guys are doing a great service (notice I didn't say DIS-service!) to the BP community by bringing this out into the open with a common sense discussion and demonstration. There have been several smokeless-in-BP videos using rifles that were loaded to destruction with smokeless, usually after several tries it finally ends by using an INSANE smokeless powder load for any gun and with two or more balls rammed on top of it! Then when the darn thing FINALLY gives up and bursts open we are then told "see there DON'T use smokeless in your BP firearm"! Where are these videos? I don't want to start anything by specifically picking on anyone's video but a quick search should locate a couple of them. Hey that gun you used ain't correct because a 44 caliber Navy was never,,,,, wait, I seem to remember that someone might have already said that!

the cap pushing the ball forward before the powder lights is creating a low pressure scenario leading to the reduced velocities and the unburnt powder. Its almost creating an artificial large case capacity scenario/ low fill ratio, like if you were to load 4gr into a 45/70.

I love Unique. It's a very forgiving powder, and if I could only have one powder to load with, it would be Unique. As you found out though, Unique does not like light loadings. It doesn't burn completely and leaves a mess. It is definitely happier with medium to stout loads. Good Video!

You must have a good hand surgeon, I can't see any of the stiches.

With the smokeless, it becomes a bunny gun. Perfect for hunting rabbits.

you're a brave man for doing this. not the trial, the posting it to the internet part! aside from the reasons of "for fun" i question "why" to bother using this if i still need a fair bit of black powder though.

Very cool work. Thanks for this.

It makes sense when you think about it, if you keep the loads *reasonable* and don't load 30 grains by volume of smokeless.. it should be fine... The issue when you have "the lowest common denominator" loading it up, thinking they're using BP and throwing in a huge load like 30grains of smokeless in, that would make even some center fire rifles cry. Savage made an inline muzzleloader that was "rated" for smokeless years back, and you could load either BP or smokeless as you saw fit, with recommended loads. I think a load in 45 colt is like 6-8 grains of unique? 45 colt has a pressure of something like ~14k CUP, and BP can be anywhere between 12 and 20, sometimes more in larger guns. I think if you stick to "cowboy loads" and use just a tad bit of common sense, it wouldn't kill you. Might have to try a tad larger load, but slap some cotton or other wadding in there to keep the powder right up against the hole and maybe try a larger heavier bullet to give it time to build more pressure?

Ive used true blue powder for this. It works but i didnt do a torture test. I think if the pistols can handle the conversion cylinders the only thing i see being an issue is the piette or uberti cylinders are made of questionable chinese metal.

that compressed load of smokeless really got me on the edge of my seat! thank you for your bravery (or perhaps stupidity?) in doing these experiments for us. i was sure that a compressed load of 4.5 grains of unique like that would totally screw up the pressure curve and blow the gun up. maybe it's just that your gun's steel is tougher than what they had historically, but im pretty sure a compressed smokeless load, historically, would have blown a gun up. tbh if anything could blow up a gun it would be a compressed load of pistol powder like that. scary stuff! thanks for showing us how variable these ratios and pressures can be while remaining surprisingly safe.

This in particular is very interesting I've been thinking of this for years but all I heard was extremely dangerous warnings all the time without anyone taking a safe as possible scientific approach to a common question. Great presentation Jake

How about match heads?

I have a original 1851 Colt Navy with one cylinder that was bulged and cracked. This is a family heirloom that my ancestor carried in the US Civil War. A long time ago one of my uncles did the dirty deed with smokeless powder. When I was younger my dad showed me the gun and explained how it was damaged. I wish I knew what powder and how much was used. Dad then carefully heated the bulge and with a press slowly pushed the cylinder bulge back in. Shape was restored also the engraved scene on the cylinder was saved. We never fired the gun.

I had my Walker Colt rechambered to a .454. I push .457 balls when I crimp with 70 grains of black powder. Monster!

Maybe they say “never use smokeless powder” because it just won’t work 😂😂

"There are three kinds of men in this world. The first learns by study. The second by observation. The third however, actually HAS to piss on the electric fence." It's good to know which you are.

An Italian channel called Backyard ballistics did a similar video once. He calculated his load using software with a "45 ACP equivalent" case. Is should be fine as long as it's made with modern manufacturing and you stay within the rated pressures. I highly recommend his old videos, the guy is a ballistician and knows his stuff. If you're going to shoot smokeless powder, especially faster burning stuff from a percussion revolver, I suggest you try lighter projectiles to get the full benefit of smokeless.

I shoot 45 Colt "cowboy" loads in my 1858. I don't see why the cap and ball cylinder would not stand the same load of smokeless with a round ball that is lighter than the full wadcutter I use in the 45 Colt loads. This was a very informative video. Thanks mane.

But ---some dummies would try a cylinder filled with smokeless and have differing results from level 🙄 headed people!?

Well done, Jake another excellent video. You will have the black powder hornets stirred right up lol.😂

4.5 grains of Hodgson's Clays with a cornmeal to keep the powder at the flash hole works great in a cap n ball revolver. Only concern for cleaning is the residue from the cap.

i actually like the idea of what yer doing but very important not to over charge

Back in the 1990's, more closer to 2000 I did this with an 1860 Army. And when I told the guy I had loaded a duplex load, he about loaded his pants then promptly vacated the general area. Course when I did that duplex load, I went with about a 20 grain black powder charge and a 5 grain smokeless load did not have any problems. I also did not do that again, not because it was not fun but more because of the fear I saw in people who knew I was shooting a duplex load in an 1860 Army.

That was a lot of fun just to watch. Done something along the lines of that in my Hawken rifle with win. 296 with about the same results. OUTSTANDING VIDEO.

(Setting aside fools that don't adjust the quantity when switching powders.) Most smokeless actually has a smoother pressure curve shape that is less hard on the gun for a given potential energy. Black tends to spike the pressure really hard at the start then taper off.

There are many who comment by repeating things they have heard on KZfaq and read in forums and have never even fired a gun of any type. They repeat cause they think something sounds smart. Iraqveteran 8888 did an interesting video a few years ago showing what it really took to damage a black powder rifle including smokeless and barrel instructions. The result was surprising. Keep up the videos.

This channel has everything. I’ve learned how to make proper black powder and hopefully if I can make the space, I’m going to set me up a shop to build my own guns and make my own powder. Thanks for all you do, you have no idea how much you help the average black powder nut😂

What's interesting is that the military still technically used black powder for applications similar to in this video. It's used as a primary explosive to set off other propellants/explosives with higher activation energies. what you're basically doing is making a more powerful (corrosive) cap.

You got me interested in muzzle loading now, I started collecting scrap lead. Thanks!

hi willard my name is chris Washburn im also a blackpowder enthusiast I love watching your videos I do think that smokeless in cap and ball OK in some cases but im also here to say just be careful your the muzzleloader channel I always watch to get information on different types of rifles revolvers and I don't want you to accidentally hurt or kill yourself by mistake I see you as a mentor on blackpowder and I don't know of any other channel that puts out so much information so yeah please be careful with smokeless in a cap and ball flinlock please and thank you again love your channel keep up the good work

You are correct on the naval charges using black powder to ignite the smokeless. Any medium-large bore artillery uses black powder in its charge.

As an experiment this was very interesting. In practical terms it would be a bit of a waste of time - twice the loading time, and you still have to clean your gun out after.

Interesting test and results. Keith and associates played around with duplex loads back in the day, but with cartridge arms, not cap and ball.

As I watched your video, I could hear the sounds of BP purists hitting the floor when you loaded smokeless in a cap and ball. lol I enjoyed the video because I have wondered about smokeless powder use in a cap and ball revolver. Now I don't have to wonder anymore. Thanks for the time you guys spent putting this together. Phil

I love this episode 😁! Great job with this episode.