What I really learned from this video was finally, WTF unsprung weight is

Never knew what upside downs are better thanks for explaining

MAN LOVE THE COLOUR ON THE R1

I have had both, for everyday riding there are not much differences, but when you push a little, upside down forks gives you more confidence of control

Solid comparison! The thing I'd add in support of right side up forks is them being more compliant, even when set to a stiffer setting, as they have quite a bit more flex built in than usd forks. I actually figured this out by accident one time when rebuilding a set of air forks and, after having lowered them 2" and shortening the springs, forgot to air them up. The forks were bottomed out and I took the bike out for a ride. Obviously big hits here rough (like riding a BMX bike) but just riding around on surface streets at traffic pace, it wasn't that bad. There's always going to be a baseline of compliance built in to non USD forks that you really can't get with the rigid USD forks, and it's why I don't use them on any of my builds.

Gosh I remember when adjusting forks meant changing the fluid for a thicker viscosity, 5,10,15 etc. or adding a spacer at the top of the springs, or not. Fancy that.

Another thing to note, the fancy golden coatings on the shiny part of the fork are there to reduce friction, the tendency of a telescopic fork to stick before releasing and going through a stroke motion. This is not usually a problem until it comes to small vibrations and bumps that aren't big enough to force the fork to move, and you have a high speed compression damping circuit that's trying to bring more compliance to the chatter on a road surface. High speed damping circuits are only available on very expensive forks and shocks (you can also buy them aftermarket for certain motorcycle models). The further over a motorcycle leans the less able a fork is to absorb bumps and the more a frame has to flex to do that work. The bumps are now acting like a twisting force on the motorcycle steering yoke, rather than a perpendicular compression to the fork. Ducati once made their Panigale frame too stiff and the superbike was very difficult to keep good traction at high lean angles, because naturally the fork and rear shock cannot comply with the ground surface nearly as well as the forces are sideways rather than perpendicular.

My little 200 cc has shown adjustable conventional forks at front and I am pretty happy with it

The “why” conventional was standard is almost right, but it’s not really about seals being better today. It’s about potential damage to the stanchions CAUSING leaks. You can see this reflected in the design of front fenders today: Even the best seals can’t seal against a pitted and rusted stanchion. It’s easier to protect them on conventional forks because they are further away from the road. Closer to the road is where they will get sand-blasted by road debris. Conventional orientation often puts the sensitive parts behind a fairing or windscreen to protect them from the elements too. Look at the front fender design of a 2007 EX250F compared to a 2008 EX250J/K. Both bikes have conventional forks, but can you put your finger on what makes the updated fender design look more modern? It’s the extra side fins protecting the forks. That’s right: The 2008+ Ninjette fender design is pretending it has USD forks to look more modern so it can play with the big boys. ;) Yeah. It’s better to have a conventional fork if your seals are leaking but it’s also less likely to leak and leaks aren’t always the seal’s fault.

Using words like "better" and "best" assumes that we all have the same goals or needs and are usually completely subjective. USD forks are definitely more rigid, but that results in a stiffer ride with more feedback. There are occasions in which a stiffer ride is worse, like rough terrain over long distance. Conventional forks are less fatiguing than USD forks and provide a more dampened, softer ride. Casual bikes, like commuters cruisers, tourers and many dualsports use regular forks to aid in more rider comfort and less fatigue. Also, (the most perfect bike for regular people) the DRz400S forks are fully adjustable for rebound and damping. Performance bikes benefit from performance enhancements, but some bikes derive their desirability from comfort.

One advantage of right side up forks is that you get less road salt and brake dust on the delicate chrome, this helps if you ride a lot in winter, I tend to be somewhat careless with my bikes sometimes and you can get corrosion on the fork chrome if you forget to wash it, with conventional forks the chances of this happening are smaller

Video idea: Convert that MT07 to USD setup

In MTB Rock Shock released an inverted fork a few years ago (the one shown in the video), but has not become the standard for high end forks, other than Cannondale’s Lefty, single arm forks. That is something I would love to see coming to motorcycling.

I know I need confidence and safety along with my speed runs to the coffee shop!😊. I often put my knee on the road through the drive through…😊. And when I break quickly at the order booth…USD forks really make the difference 😊. You really have to be doing some serious riding to appreciate the difference…other than looks.

Man, that color in that r1 is amazing.

I had regular forks on my '08 Suzuki SV1000S (which is a powerful, yet chilled sport tourer), which was fine, but the bike did feel "spongy" and not as direct in corners, very comfortable though. Then later I had an '09 Honda CBR600RR, which had USD forks, and obviously, being a sport bike, it felt much more stiff, snappy and direct in corners, but a bit more uncomfortable on longer rides, etc. But overall, I love the look and feel of USD forks, I was actually even considering doing the GSXR1000 fork mod on my SV1000S, which is apparently a very nice upgrade to the SV1000S.

Another plus for rightside up forks fot me is when i go ofroad though mud pools, the shiny parts stays shiny longer :p

At 96 yamaha thunderace still had conventional fork. With massive 48mm inner tubes. R1 had usd at 98. R6 had normal for very long time.

In japan still using normal setup because it's easy to work and never fail for safety when seal broke the oil stay on tube sliders

As an EUC rider, im happy to see that our normal forks are your new/better forks.

I learned: rigidity and unsprung weight. But more expensive, in total more weight, and gets damaged quicker since the stanchion is lower. And leaking is a bigger problem.

I'll say again you did an amazing job with that R1. It looks incredible.

thank you! i now understand usd forks and can talk to the salesmen at the dealership with confidence! win!! the R1 looks incredible btw

You're right! Oil seal broke in my and faced a brake failure while riding. Thank god is was just riding in slow speed

My honda grom has usd forks, lovely stuff

My conventional forks were leaking after the bike not being used for a while, because the seals dried out. With USD forks, the seal lives longer when not in use, because there is oil against the seal.

I've often wondered about that. Thanks

I believe all those USD avantages are pretty much optional, depending on overall quality, material of forks and bike. Obviously, it's harder to make smaller turning circle because of fat tubes in tripple trees. If anything happens to seal rubber during winter and oil pours out in spring , that's going to make quite a trouble to the user, even crash it in case it affects the breaks. A racing motorcycle is much different animal than something for an average street rider, it would take much more care and attention so, as long as you consider yourself a normal guy, normal shocks sould feel normal.

I'll take the more durable one, thank you very much.

Thorough , informative and simple. loved the content.

Inverted forks also mean the bumps are absorbed into the body of the bike, not into the front wheel, which is much better for stability …

I think from what I'm seeing here, for the average driver, maintenance wise, cost and ease of workability the conventional for that is upgraded to cartridges is actually a pretty decent option. You're losing in rigidity, but you gain in the forks not spilling their oil out when the seals go bad, and also overall cost, as well as your ability to easier service your own suspension. I just did a traxxion dynamics ar25 on my XSR700 and feels really good. It was only 500 bucks but it's very confidence inspiring in the turns and at high speeds.

I would choose a motorcycle with a conventional fork for commuting. My bike though has an USD fork and every 10000 kms I need to pay to rebuild the front (new seals, oil etc)

Oil dripping onto your front brake when the fork seal is bad isn't a disadvantage of USD forks. Normal forks have the same issue. I've had 2 bikes so far, both with normal forks and on both the fork seals went bad at one point, which lead to significantly reduced brake performance.

Nice vid. Been saving up for an R3 and I am torn between the V1 and the V2.

Amazing video. I've learned quite a few things about suspensions

Great explanation! 👍 Now explain that 99% of riders can’t tell the difference.

Upside down forks are inverted Monotubes, just like Bilstein's used in race cars, and many Subaru's. And the copy of Bilstein... Ohlins! KYB also did inverted Monotubes for the Subaru Impreza WRX. not to mention all the others that have come after like Reiger. the best thing about Monotube shocks, is they hold more oil, but they hold the oil at the top, there is a thin (was 9.5mm but later upgraded to 10mm rod that extends down to the bottom of the shock body *that is why there is a nut on the bottom of Billsteins in cars, and there can also be a very thin rod inside that other rod, that can be turned to adjust (open/close) any bypasses to send fluid around the Valving to soften the low speed (and the high speed whilst it doing it), but thit that setup, the rod is 12mm as in Ohlins with adjustment. one of the benefits is that only the shock body and inner rod are the moving parts and the reservoir that hold the oil is at the top where it doesn't really move in relation to the vehicle, however, unlike twin tube shocks where the oil is pushed up the inner tube and drains down the outer tube (with a valve at each end of the inner tube, one for bump and the other for rebound. the Monotube which has a piston separating the Nitrogen from the oil, and another piston that has valving on either side of it to control resistance for bump and rebound, It can run in ANY orientation as the oil doesn't have to drain down an outer tube, to reach the bottom of the inner tube. l see rear shocks in cars that appear similar to factory Twin tube shocks. And with upside down with an extra tube over the top. the only reason the outer seal would leak is if the inner seal has gone, replacing the outer seal does nothing, because that's not the problem. and the weight? well on a Motorcycle with a monotube shock the weight is in the oil at the bottom of the shock, so upside down shocks are NOT actually lighter at the bottom, they just hold more oil and resist fade, have a better and EASIER to change valve shim stack & can be fine tuned much easier... yes these high performance shocks are EASIER to mess with!

A fork that performs the same task, geared towards street riders, can be serviced easily, and is cheaper! Take (a fraction of) my money :D

Conventional forks are lighter and cheaper. I don't race on the track. Norton Roadholder Frorks gave a superb ride and simple maintenance. I currently ride a VFR. Handles brilliantly. Look I have changed the oil once just because I'm Picky.

It all makes a ton of sense and something I was always curious about. I wonder if inverted forks are more likely to accumulate dirt and contaminants due to being closer to the road surface.

I've only ever owned KTM's, and they always use USD forks, so I dont know any different. But I do love KTM suspension, so I cant complain.

you bought mt07 🤔 have not seen this bike before 😄

Never had upside down forks, probably never will. I’m not into the idea of tracking a bike or riding hard at all. Riding is fun, but I like to stay well within the boundaries of my abilities.

My 2000 R6 even has inverted forks and the mechanics of the design are superior enough that ive applied them to my ebike cafe racer setup and a very noticeable difference ill say

I prefer the conventional forks on my street bikes due to less maintenance - dont get as much dirt and dust from the road being up higher and the oil leak is not as bad if it were to happen.

My BMW g310r has USD forks, still doesn't make it a good bike 😂😂

Havent really tried "normal" forks. However owning 90's Ducatis with USD forks do however show why they sometimes can be annoying (leaking forks)

Great video, well done.

I have ride a yamaha MT-07 with conventional right way up forks. There was a down hill curve close to my works and the bike didn't feel too confidence inspiring going around the curve this is in contrast to my new Trident 660 which was way more confidence inspiring going along the same downhill curve.

Usd is not a costly or premium stuff.. In India we have so much own brands using Usd in their products. Which are not costly at all but, provides good performance. For example, in bajaj Ns400Z which costs less than a yamaha R15 but have 43mm Usd and it's very very reliable.

Fckng incredible explanation, props!

I love my 06 upside down the right one started leaking again its awesome

Sometimes simple USD forks were used on basic bikes - must be cheaper to make. Often they were grease lubricated. An interesting application for full sized bikes was the Dowty forks of the 1940s. They were adapted from WW2 aeroplane landing gear, saving weight of steel springs. They reportedly worked well when new, but sealing was not perfected so USD didn't take off then. Bad seal didn't just mean oil leaks - you lost your air spring too. Dowty still in business I think, making suspensions for Airbus.

I thought USD forks would be cheaper to make. The slider on a conventional fork is a large cast part that needs a lot of machining. The top of an USD fork is just an extrusion that is easy to machine and cheap to make. The chrome tune is the same on both and the only complex part to machine in a USD fork is the bottom bit which holds the axle and calipers and that part is small and easy to die cast. I always wondered why we didn't start with USD forks from the beginning. I never thought about the oil seals being a reason.

Make a video of the BMW telelever. I have a GS and trust me no other bike compares to the GS's front suspension

Well also normal forks like old Yamaha r6 are adjustable in both directions .. it’s not that you can’t have adjustable forks it’s just a money thing like usd as well

I hate conventional. Every bike i have uses inverted. I even paid more for an r1m just for the Ohlins suspension!! Love my 18 r1m!!

The best explanation ever.

I prefer good fully adjustable conventional forks over crappy soft USD forks without any adjustments.

What a refreshingly well explained video! Instant like and sub from me.

Yes this is all great if you're running a sportbike but a cruiser not so much

I went from that very MT07 model to a gen 3 MT09. The Gen 3 has the USD and i immedialy felt a differance. It could be because they were set up better for my weight on the MT09 but i can't help feel it was partially also because the were USD.

I used to like USD fork, but the difference to telescopic fork in daily commute are negligible

great explanation - cheers!

Also, greetings from Ireland 🇮🇪 Great video 👍

I have had bikes with both conventional and USD forks and tbo unless you are a race track fanatic they make very little difference in the real world. Currently I have had conventional forks rebuild and customised for my bike and weight by Maxton, they are noticeably better than any stock forks of both types I have used on real roads, not tried them on a track yet.

For us bottom feeders who are trying to keep ancient wrecks on the road, the right side up forks have a big advantage: They can be straightened after a crash. Some 70s-era manuals even include instructions on how to do it.

Your r1 is looking nice man

its all abouth unsprung weight so with racing they put the part that is heavier on the top so it can work the suspension

Your MT-07? When did that happen?

On Indian roads, small stones can hit the stanchion and cause scratches on it, leading to oil leakage. This will be far more common in inverted forks.

I always supposed the inverted suspension was better but never knew why. I only rode conventional ones but I have bad experiences, probably because they're cheap. I'm in urge to change them now, oil-rings doesn't seal at all and I'm running out of oil. A typical trip around the city is like an off-road adventure!

There's still a market, albeit limited, for quality RWU forks. Ohlins still produce their Custom 43 RWU forks with full adjustability, which will set you back about £2.5k. RWU definitely looks better on retro models and I'm surprised Norton didn't go for those on the 961, rather than the USD option.

A pretty recent subscriber here. Love the content👍 I really miss you baseball cap though😊

Please wrap the golden forks on your R1 to black or other colors, it doesn't go well with the Blue.

Nice bike❤ the carbon

The forks referred to as upside down preceded to one’s now referred to as normal.

Honda grom having inverted forks😏🤙🏾

Great video, but if MV Agusta made a bike with no suspension I'd still probably buy it soo...

another advantage of a USD Fork is that the seal is always covered by oil from above. It minimizes Friction , and can potentially prolong the lifespan of a Seal.

I prefer neither. My bike has a front shock (BMW K1300R)

Surron on top

Good one

I gotto say that I have an conventional fully tunable "spork" (two of them) with low and high speed compression, dampening, preload and rebound, and it's air based suspension :)......Other than those Upside-down all the way....

very insightful👍

3-one is a cartridge (more efficient) the other isn’t

Motorcross works bikes were using upside forks in the 80s

Which bike is bro in video

I was going to to by a 2004 CBR 600rr but I couldn’t stand the look of the right side up forks

I missed something somewhere. Where is the MT09 and where did the MT07 come from?

Thanks

But isnt the slider hollow? Or is both the slider and stanchon hollow?

Both works well for me

So for normal riding not needed.

beside cheaper, the "telescopic" forks is also lighter and easier to maintain

Can you do a video explaining how to set up suspension for dummies I have the same r1

did you try fork shocks? I've using them for more than 10 years, and I never had any seal problems...

I may be wrong but don't you call the two main parts a cylinder and a piston?

Actually you only realize how bad something is if you have the comparison - once i rode a Suzuki TLR1000 my BMWR100GS was history. It's ridiculous how elastic everything feels and how bad the brakes etc. are when you return to the old stuff.