Cleaned my IAC (Idle Air Control)

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The Cockney Biker

The Cockney Biker

6 жыл бұрын

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My Harley Started stalling while Idling and the RPM's were really low.. SO I cleaned out the IAC.. Here's what I did.. (In case anyone wants to know..) no problems since then!! Yay
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Пікірлер: 130
@LanaJouci
@LanaJouci 4 ай бұрын
Thank you very much and greetings from Germany.
@nicholasturano1003
@nicholasturano1003 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for posting this. I’ve been having this problem intermittently and thanks to you the problem will be fixed
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
You're welcome.. really glad it helped :)
@wb4514
@wb4514 3 жыл бұрын
Do not use carb cleaner on a fuel injection motor, use injection cleaner.
@choppermarc2342
@choppermarc2342 4 жыл бұрын
I been having the same problem . About to go to the parts store and get some carb cleaner. Fingers crossed ,also idling high.
@runesforthepeople25
@runesforthepeople25 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this, my bike has been doing the same thing, I suspected that was it, now I'm totally convinced
@motorcyclementor1785
@motorcyclementor1785 Жыл бұрын
My son's girlfriend's sporty has been exhibiting exactly these symptoms- good to know and I'll for sure try this. Many thanks.
@martincvitkovich724
@martincvitkovich724 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks @ 95700 miles my Road King started low idle when it is warmed up and ridden a while. Will give this a shot!
@kenherrera2819
@kenherrera2819 5 жыл бұрын
I was having trouble with the idle AND while riding...I replaced plugs..no change...I rebuilt the entire fuel pump and filter assembly...no change... then I thought, "Why not give this a try..." it immediately started running like a top! Great advice, many thanks! (2007 xl1200c)
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 5 жыл бұрын
Really glad it helped you! Thanks for letting me know!
@scottliegel855
@scottliegel855 5 жыл бұрын
If you cycle the IAC while you're spraying it it works a hell of a lot better you just got to turn the ignition on and off and you'll hear it moving up and down..
@stevechristiansen9037
@stevechristiansen9037 5 жыл бұрын
This worked for me ty very much.it started when I was 2000 miles away from home and it did wonders
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 5 жыл бұрын
Really glad it helped. It sucks to be stranded so far from home.. ride safe!
@zizu_330
@zizu_330 3 жыл бұрын
Watching your video improved my symptoms. I am grateful ありがとうございました🙂
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 3 жыл бұрын
I am happy this helped you
@Count_Mephistopheles
@Count_Mephistopheles 11 ай бұрын
I ride a 2008 Dyna Super Glide, I had this problem and I did exactly what you did to fix it and it worked perfectly, Thank you.
@DDollersBoy
@DDollersBoy 9 күн бұрын
Thank you this worked for me as well I had the same issue now its all good.
@wesevans7649
@wesevans7649 4 жыл бұрын
My 07 Road Glide did the same thing Thanks for the video the dealership couldn't find anything wrong with the bike, I even mentioned the IAC they looked puzzled with that. thanks again
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
Glad it helped: )
@waygone6657
@waygone6657 4 жыл бұрын
I have a 2011 SofTail I bought new. Had some issues with it in thr first year, I found out quick the dealership wasn't very good at maintenance. Been fixing it myself ever since.
@waygone6657
@waygone6657 4 жыл бұрын
Good video, thanks, at 41K miles I got the same problem with the IAC ;-)
@TcBigHurt
@TcBigHurt 4 жыл бұрын
Wow thanks a lot, mate, greeting from Maryland USA
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
Glad to help
@rickspa8348
@rickspa8348 2 жыл бұрын
Had the same problem with a 15 plate Fatboy. It would also rev high on start up and not drop even at running temp. Got some Wynns Fuel Injection & Carburettor Cleaner from Halfords and did exactly as you did in the video, but didn’t start the bike immediately but left it over night to work it’s magic. Started beautifully the next day with no excessive revs and ran great all day. Seems to have solved the problem for me. Thanks for the tip..👍🏻 Update - two months in and the problem returned. I had the IAC valve and intake seals replaced, as being flexible can leak air. In the process of re-routing the head breathers to a catch can, which should stop the crap getting into the IAC.
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 2 жыл бұрын
Glad it Helped!
@jjsnead1294
@jjsnead1294 Жыл бұрын
Ive been having the same issue with high reving as well. Thanks for the tip
@88oly
@88oly 4 жыл бұрын
Same thing is happening with my ‘07 street glide. Going to give this a try and hopefully it will solve the problem!!
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
I hope that solves your issue!
@JohnLee-ui5gd
@JohnLee-ui5gd 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks man. Need to do mine
@victorhawkins3461
@victorhawkins3461 6 жыл бұрын
Catching up a bit at a time, Cockney. Yup...I learned something. Thanks for making it seem do-able, even for non-wrenchers like me!
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Victor Hawkins .. thanks Victor, hope it helos you in the future.. best wishes!
@rudyvee9166
@rudyvee9166 5 жыл бұрын
Yeah, me too - the "King of Non Wrencher's!" So helpful, even for me...
@armanbenjamin3694
@armanbenjamin3694 Жыл бұрын
Great tips Bro' er
4 жыл бұрын
Just bought an 06 Sportster custom 883 with just over 3000 miles on and it does the same thing.Stalled at the light tonight.I will give this a try tomorrow.
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
Hope that works for you...
@bikelife630
@bikelife630 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks man! 👍 Mine does the same thing. Will clean it asap
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
Glad I could help
@bikelife630
@bikelife630 4 жыл бұрын
I just cleaned it and it works great now. Thanks for your video!
@507allen1
@507allen1 2 жыл бұрын
To do it correctly you must turn on the ignition and open the throttle wide open. This allows the control valve to open. Then spray in your carburetor/injector cleaner into the control valve . When finished start the bike, it will take a few revolutions before it will start. I can't believe he didn't know the correct procedure.
@jhanlon1903
@jhanlon1903 4 жыл бұрын
the breathers just put hot air and oil into the intake WTF divert them to an outside breather filter, i did it and it made a big difference,
@bakedbeanz4510
@bakedbeanz4510 11 сағат бұрын
This is exactly why the sell the catch cans for the blow back or blow by whatever they call it, I’ve been nervous to do it to my bike being you have to tap those threaded holes on the jugs
@brandonwhiteaker3388
@brandonwhiteaker3388 4 жыл бұрын
My bikes doing the exact same thing, thanks for the video I think that's the problem
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
Hope it helps :)
@adam6ism
@adam6ism Жыл бұрын
This happened to me today haha thank you 🙏
@loseyourlife4042
@loseyourlife4042 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks man🤜🏻💥🤛🏻
@lockwxxd5270
@lockwxxd5270 4 жыл бұрын
Think ive got the same problem, cut out twice this morning with real low idle at traffic lights, will give this ago
@murraykriner9425
@murraykriner9425 2 жыл бұрын
That particular part of most bikes is ignored or deleted by many in the community since they don't want to be tasked with doing the repairs to it. Its not just Harley's but a whole mess of other bikes as well. Its a hot topic for some, since many think it serves no purpose beyond making the engine hard to keep running at idle. I've stressed the importance of servicing this part for emissions sake especially if you live in an area where testing is still done and enforced as well. Every person who quipped back on the forum said it was garbage and was impossible to keep in repair. They didn't even know it has a purpose beyond making them angry and getting in the way. Thanks.
@David-og7di
@David-og7di 3 жыл бұрын
Late comment, but if you are running one of these backing plates on the air cleaner, replace the head breathers with banjos, run some fuel-grade rubber pipe of them behind the plate to a tee-junction. Block off the holes in th plate if you have them & enjoy not having oil/air mist going into your carb manifold.
@silverwiskers7371
@silverwiskers7371 Жыл бұрын
YES, i agree, i'm doing this next myself
@robertheeter9440
@robertheeter9440 Жыл бұрын
I actually installed a WEHRS canister breather on my 2004 Heritage it’s a really nice product has a small breather on the top and actually has a AN Cap on the bottom for drain if for some reason it does catch a bunch of oil. Fit very nicely just above the factory oil cooler
@brodyrichard263
@brodyrichard263 2 ай бұрын
Ever since I changed my grips my bike wants to die when idling sometimes. It’s a 2015 dyna street Bob. Any advice would be so greatly appreciated
@tigrez7614
@tigrez7614 6 жыл бұрын
Glad you found the problem!
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
+Linglings_motovlog me too.. its a horriblw feeling when your bike suddenly dies like that...but she's all good now and working well :) the moral of this story is check the filters as often as you change the oil..
@tigrez7614
@tigrez7614 6 жыл бұрын
How often should I changed the oil?
@JoaoPecorella
@JoaoPecorella 6 жыл бұрын
Greatl !! I have a 14 Bob and I had the same problem a few days ago. Did the cleaning and so far is good, but need more time to check !! When you had this problem did you check If u had this error code p 1632 ?
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Hiya Joao, I never checked the mapping or the ecm, I cleaned the air filter and the AIC, and she was fine after that.. my bikes been staged so I didnt want to play with any programs. Glad you Bob is doing ok now though
@hervemasson5976
@hervemasson5976 Жыл бұрын
on my 2010 Street bob. i have the same problem he first time, very hard to start and could not idle, I drove like that for 60 km in the time to arrive at the repair garage and the mechanic tries and it starts very well and the idle is good... and yesterday the opposite happened while driving I felt that the engine was turning quickly when changing gears, I stopped, cut the engine and restarted but still the same. and this morning with a cold engine, it could no longer idle.. oh yes, I forgot to say on the dashboard I had the error code P0505.
@charlesmisseskaz
@charlesmisseskaz 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video Harley was raping my pockets changing shit that didn’t need to be changed saw this video once haven’t had the problem yet thank you bud
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Really glad it helped you out, Charles! If you live out where theres a lot of pollen then you may need to do this every pollen season.. sorry it took a while (and cost a bit) to diagnose you HD's issue.. hope you can get refunds or some use out of the replacement parts.
@charlesmisseskaz
@charlesmisseskaz 6 жыл бұрын
The Cockney Biker yea man big help and yea there’s a lot of pollen by me I’m just shocked why HD Didn’t trouble shoot this they sold me a fuel pack what does nothing for me at all after seeing this video same issues as you gave it a shot glad I did big thanks man
@bishopturner6541
@bishopturner6541 Жыл бұрын
Ya bunch little kids working on now need old school guys
@jakemosca6587
@jakemosca6587 4 жыл бұрын
For me, this was not the fix. It took some research, but I found a "recall" (harley wouldn't call it that bc then they couldn't charge for the repair) called TT410. This is an update needed to be done on the ECM for ~2007 models (mine is 2008). Hope this helped. The symptoms listed in TT410 are as follows: low idle, high idle, return to idle stalling.
@bonez6349
@bonez6349 2 жыл бұрын
This is exactly what's going on with mine.! How much did this fix cost.?
@jakemosca6587
@jakemosca6587 2 жыл бұрын
@@bonez6349 very inexpensive. Don't let some dealers fool you. See if then even know what TT410 is. It should be well within the $100 range. I got ran for 900$ at a Harley dealer that had no clue what they were doing. Found another dealer that did, and they installed TT410.
@bonez6349
@bonez6349 2 жыл бұрын
@@jakemosca6587 thanks man... I'm going to make some calls today about the TT410 update.! I hope this is the fix for sure because when it stalls at stops 40+ miles out in the country on back roads that shit freaks me out.! But fortunately it will start right back every time but that always in the back of mind what if it don't.?
@507allen1
@507allen1 2 жыл бұрын
@@bonez6349 I replaced the air/idle control valve myself. Took less then an hour and cost me $38.46 for the new control valve.
@leorobles9885
@leorobles9885 Жыл бұрын
@@507allen1 sorry I know it’s old. But did it work?
@Thisdude1227
@Thisdude1227 Жыл бұрын
What about if the engine is idled higher is it the same fix?
@myawesomelife4168
@myawesomelife4168 3 жыл бұрын
My 03 Softail stalled on the freeway after service from the HD dealership. I told them before it had stalled twice, they couldn't find anything. so I'm going to clean it tomorrow also it could be the TPS?
@jamalymall
@jamalymall 2 жыл бұрын
What was the final verdict?
@lakegeneva4851
@lakegeneva4851 6 жыл бұрын
Cool! Thanks for that mate.
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
You're Welcome :)
@haroldwiser2641
@haroldwiser2641 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks, mine has stalled intermittently. Maybe this is my fix!
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 5 жыл бұрын
Fingers crossed!
@ADRIAN-jr5th
@ADRIAN-jr5th 3 жыл бұрын
did it work
@bonez6349
@bonez6349 2 жыл бұрын
I've got an 07 Softail Standard and mine has been doing this intermittently.! I never know when it will do this until I come to a stop or make a slow turn with the clutch pulled in... It freaks me out when this happens especially when I'm 40+ miles out on back roads but it will always fire right back up every time.! I've did the IAC cleaning as you have and still this happens
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry to hear that, 07's are Fuel injected so it could have been any number if issues.. things to check are Spark Plugs, battery, Alternator, Regulator-Rectifier.. Clean or replace your Air filter and if there is nothing wrong with them, then you will have to take it to a mechanic or dealership to look at :(
@rickspa8348
@rickspa8348 2 жыл бұрын
The IAC can get coked up and sticks. Take it out and clean it or better still just replace it.
@Get.Rinsed
@Get.Rinsed 3 жыл бұрын
Hello brother. I feel like I’m having possibly the same issue on my bike as well. (03 ultra) did your electronics go dark as well once it stalled? I tend to stall in lower Rpm ranges in higher gears then all my electronics go dark. Thanks and be safe!
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 3 жыл бұрын
No, my electrics never went dark when she stalled... if that happens to you then it might not be the IAC needing a blast (Though it doesn't hurt to give the carb a clean) it may well be an electrical fault, if it's predominantly at lower RPM's I'd Check the Battery, Wiring/Output from the Alternator, Regulator/Rectifier and spark Plugs.. With the Engine ticking over use a Multimeter on the NEG + POS Terminals.. they should be charging about 13 amps.. if it is then check the spark Plugs and wires (Which might be most likely to be your issue) if they pass inspection then you will have to stop by a Dealership or a Harley Tech to check..
@panheadsforever74
@panheadsforever74 6 ай бұрын
The EPA made harley-davidson run blow by tubes back into the throttle body. You dont have to leave it like that
@dougbrian744
@dougbrian744 Жыл бұрын
Im having this problem on a fuel injected bike. Do fuel infected bikes have an IAC
@karmatashi5068
@karmatashi5068 3 ай бұрын
Yes, of course
@1961woodstock
@1961woodstock 5 жыл бұрын
Hi bro, thanks for this video ill be checking to see if its my problem as well. Bought a used 08 night train have had it out today for its first ride, after a second ride 20 minutes into it i came to a stop sign and she stopped right there , like it was chocking for air or fuel and then stopped. Started right up again no problem but a mile later the same thing. Pulled over waited a few seconds and started right back up for the journey home 4 miles no issue. Im hoping its just that to clean this part up . Fuel tank is full , but thing is the fuel light did come on this morning and i turned off power and back on again and the light went out . what do you think might be the issue here??? but will try what you did , hoping its just dirty.
@bghankhernandez
@bghankhernandez 5 жыл бұрын
If has stoke alarm change battery on remote,then check battery for bike,then do what he said in this video.
@JakobKaizen
@JakobKaizen Жыл бұрын
Exact same thing happened to my 14 FXSB yesterday. Stalls when stopping, runs great when I just help it a bit on the throttle, and no problem when moving. Fuel light went on a couple of seconds and said ”Low Range” even tho it wasn’t even near empty, then went away a minute or so later. What was the solution man?
@1961woodstock
@1961woodstock Жыл бұрын
Change IAC unit on top of throttle intake,,,,,since 3 years ago it happened again ,,,,but after removing head breather lines that go to the air filter return it was flawless. What was happening was the venting lines from both cylinders were feeding oily fluid back into the intake causing it to clog up, hence the constant stalling or runaway rpm being stuck. Feed 2 lines down beside engine to a catch can and your breather issues will be ok.
@donaldfulmer7804
@donaldfulmer7804 3 жыл бұрын
What's with the funeral home music? I'm still gonna try it!
@panheadsforever74
@panheadsforever74 6 ай бұрын
See those 2 black tubes? They are blow by tubes run them to a catch can or to the ground no more grime done forever
@steher
@steher 6 жыл бұрын
You need breather bolts. Those tubes that aim into your intake are putting crap back into your bike. I got ride of mine a long time ago.
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Although I not had a problem since.. I would like to do that.. where do you get them from?
@Mitch_B67
@Mitch_B67 5 жыл бұрын
Very true, you also need to clean the carb inside. I'm guessing lots of miles.
@Mitch_B67
@Mitch_B67 5 жыл бұрын
@@CockneyBiker I saw them on Ebay very cheap.
@51newwest
@51newwest 5 жыл бұрын
I did mine with bits from my garage. Drill out 2 grease nipples, drill & tap your current bolts and fit the grease nipples. A little muffler putty or metal bond filler to block the breather into the air filter and vacuum or fuel tube from the grease nipples to drain the oil vapour away.
@glennhurst7659
@glennhurst7659 3 жыл бұрын
Did this solve your issue? I have the same problem. Rode 150 miles with not problem. The next day rode another 150 miles and when I pulled into the truck stop my 2003 heritage stalled again. It had done this before and I replaced everything but the fuel pump and then replaced the plugs and installed a commander 5 hoping one of these would solve it. Thought it did until this past weekend. I had previously removed and cleaned and reoiled the K7N filter and didn't shoot cleaner down that tube. Maybe I should have I will try that. Then buy a TPS and AIC too. the dealer rapes me on costs. they have to make money too... lol
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 3 жыл бұрын
It worked for me and many viewers.. best part about this fix is it's cheap.. so it won't cost you much to see if it'll work.
@3percentmick705
@3percentmick705 4 жыл бұрын
Servicing your own bike doesn't mean just changing the engine oil and filter.
@bishopturner6541
@bishopturner6541 Жыл бұрын
Tell them how do it then
@RougeWhiteBoy
@RougeWhiteBoy 2 жыл бұрын
dude ive got the same thing but i currently cant get over 3000rpm!
@bknoxx
@bknoxx 6 жыл бұрын
Have to do this to mine today had the same issue twice
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Hiya Brian.. It's a really simple thing to do.. didn't take me long, It happened again a few weeks later so I cleaned my air filter as well and never had a problem since..
@richardmgao
@richardmgao 6 жыл бұрын
Did it help? My bike is also having a lot of stalling issues.
@bknoxx
@bknoxx 6 жыл бұрын
Richard Gao it did I haven’t had a problem since. 🤘
@richardmgao
@richardmgao 6 жыл бұрын
That’s great. What kind of cleaner should we use?
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
I just used Carb cleaner from autozone..
@ADRIAN-jr5th
@ADRIAN-jr5th 3 жыл бұрын
what cleaner you use
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 3 жыл бұрын
Just standard O'Reilly's Carb Cleaner.. nothing exotic
@ThomasKBurke
@ThomasKBurke 6 жыл бұрын
What year is that bike and is it fuel injected?
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
+Thomas Burke . Hey Thomas, its a 2015 Street Bob and is fuel injected.
@ThomasKBurke
@ThomasKBurke 6 жыл бұрын
The Cockney Biker Cool man. I have a 2006 Dyna Wide Glide fuel injected that I was occasionally experiencing a problem similar to yours... I got the bike 6 months ago and have only stalled with clutch in twice, once a few months ago coming to a light, and once the the other night starting at a green light. What’s far more common is I’ll be riding, pull the clutch in to coast for whatever reason (heavy traffic in San Diego County) and I’ll blip the throttle, just because I think it sounds cool... and there’ll be like a clicking sound and the bike will sound like it stalled for half a second, and I let off the throttle immediately and it regains it’s composure. Last night I did exactly what you did in the video here, fired it up, kept it above idle for a a bit, shut it down, did the process again, then went for a ride... it felt real clean and sounded great. I also suspected I had 8 degree injectors (which was a design flaw that year that Harley replaced with 25 degree injectors through a service bulletin), but I shined a light into the engine this morning and I do indeed already have the 25 degree injectors (I bought it used obviously, the previous owner must have taken care of that). What are you’re thoughts? You think cleaning IAC did the trick? I’m gonna ride again later.
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 6 жыл бұрын
Hey Thomas, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I was out riding :) .. I think cleaning the AIC did do the trick, but check your air filter, It might be dirty enough to re-gunk up the intake again.. if you have one of these screaming eagle washable air filters.. then use soapy water to clean it, otherwise, replace it.. (If you see it's really bad).. Ride safe and I hope you never have to worry about stalling the engine again.. Best wishes
@MxRyder19
@MxRyder19 3 жыл бұрын
Keep the can straight , use the straw instead...
@jacobroberts2976
@jacobroberts2976 9 ай бұрын
stawling
@theroadking547
@theroadking547 4 жыл бұрын
I had the similar problem I replaced the throttle position sensor. $42.00 .
@JamesRussle365
@JamesRussle365 3 жыл бұрын
Was that the issue for your bike?
@theroadking547
@theroadking547 3 жыл бұрын
@@JamesRussle365 yes, been running great. Thanks to KZfaq and the guys that upload. You can diagnose the problem yourself.
@timramirez4121
@timramirez4121 2 жыл бұрын
Did it throw a code?
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 2 жыл бұрын
No.. no codes whatsoever..
@rezaarjmand7866
@rezaarjmand7866 3 жыл бұрын
should have mentioned if your bike has Carburetor or Injected. and if that matter....
@MrHarleyoldfart
@MrHarleyoldfart 4 жыл бұрын
Why is all that crap getting through your filter?
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 4 жыл бұрын
I live in the south where the pollen is microscopic (And a lot of it).. after a year or two.. any filter gets bunged up. But that HD is a special case because it was Staged and has a larger Air filter.
@ChrisJohnson-hd8iv
@ChrisJohnson-hd8iv 5 жыл бұрын
What a Wanker Mate !! LMAO Just kidding ! Dude looks like it's been some time since you have cleaned the IAC Dirty Birdie ! Hope ya replaced that Filter also
@CockneyBiker
@CockneyBiker 5 жыл бұрын
I replaced the entire bike...lol, as much as I loved the street bob, I needed a tourer..
@acechasombre5478
@acechasombre5478 Жыл бұрын
dude your trippy music putting me to sleep how bout more talking explaining u don’t have to entertain me with acid elevator music😅
@Golyamkur
@Golyamkur 3 жыл бұрын
Absolute torture watching this!
@Golyamkur
@Golyamkur 3 жыл бұрын
Why can't people make a video that the light is not behind the object making it so dark you can't see anything. Spin the bike around towards the light man! Use your noggin for something useful. Use your common sense!
@ChitownRon
@ChitownRon 8 ай бұрын
You should be using throttlebody cleaner, not carb cleaner, carb cleaners, too harsh you’re gonna remove the coding of the inside of the system plus you guys polish your chrome and make it nice and shiny and you never look at the air filter throttlebody are you checking your air in your tires are you checking your nuts and bolts to make sure they’re not working loose I know on the sports they’re mounting bolts to the frame loosen up all the time
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