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8:29 "do you think it's safe enough for me to attach direct?" -> looks at the 400ft drop, doesn't say anything. Legend

Been watching your vids and i didn't realize this wasn't your full time gig. I gotta say i really appreciate your time and money that you've spent doing experiments. I know breaking all this gear is probably pretty expensive so thanks for all your work

Thanks for doing these tests, I have wondered what the real numbers were for a long time. There have been some tests with human volunteers but the data is hard to find and not always relevant. The design forces we generally hear about (i.e. 22 kN) were not determined by measuring actual fall forces but were derived from survivable decelerations in parachute harnesses. In climbing, survivable forces are doubled to account for doubled ropes at anchor points so 11 kN is considered a limit for survivability. For a 0.8 kN (180 lb) person, 11 kN is 13.75 g’s. Yes, people in rocket sleds have survived 45+ g’s but that is front to back and supported. In a vertical harness at around 13 g’s, spinal and soft tissue injury is severe. Your guts try to exit your bottom and your spine crushes. These concepts were later incorporated into ejection seat designs. Anyway, the force requirements for climbing gear have nothing to do with the forces that can actually be generated in a fall. A #5 stopper is rated for 6 kN (1349 lb) or 3 kN at the harness and will catch most any lead fall. I’ve done instrumentation work in the past and have a couple comments to consider. To detect a dynamic signal, you need to sample at least twice the signal frequency. To determine the magnitude of that signal you need to sample at least 10 times the signal frequency. You state that your equipment samples at 500 Hz so you should be able to measure up to 50 Hz with some confidence. The natural frequency of the human column is somewhere around 10 Hz so your measurements should be fairly good. Bear in mind that digital sampling will never catch the absolute peak but you should be close enough. Personally, I would use accelerometers instead of force but both methods work. Later, Dan

Ryan will jump off a 1000' cliff in a tire but, as soon as he's right at the anchor and dropped two feet he's scared? hahahahaha

This channel is so underrated! Thanks for the amazing videos, Ryan!

It would be interesting to see dynos on different trad gear placements and if shock loading affects them differently.

Well earned subscription from me, very well thought out, safe and mature, well informed and open to new data/information. It's a pleasant surprise to see that you know at least a good amount of physics/mechanics, too many people just assume what they've been told is correct rather than taking time to understand it and even question it.

Really sick guys, I barely have the time and crag access to climb outdoors more than once a week. I really appreciate the time you guys take to experiment with all the differnt myths and tests. Mainly so I can be more educated every time I go out and use a set up I can expect a certain amount of reliability

I've never thought of climbing in my life and I dont know how I got here but i love your content. An this video is just stunning I have no clue what any of it means but watching your dedication to science is worth it.

I don’t think anyone has said the first one would be an issue, rather it’s when the belayer shock loads when at the belay station. awesome video

yay more climbing stuff thanks guys love your work :)

Really exiting testing, looking forward where this leads! Thanks!

For your tests you probably can use something like 3ring release system. It basically serves as main attachment point for parachutists, and used for releasing malfunctioning parachutes in case of emergency.

I'd really like to see some tests on different ice anchors and ice screws, not sure if you guys do anything like that but it'd be interesting!

I am currently in the final year of a 5 year masters degree in mechanical engineering. I have also been climbing for over 12 years and am training as an outdoor climbing instructor as we speak. i weigh the better part of 120Kg and so am very concious of loading on anchors and make a point of adding an extra point in trad anchors and placing more gear while climbing to reduce the impact force. Combining climbing and engineering I spent a year analysing how the edelrid ohm (if you dont know what it is, look it up cos it your a fat bloke like me it makes a world of difference) effects loading throughout the climbing safety chain. All drop tests were done with a sand bag climber and human belayer with load cells at all key points. The cells were rated in excess of 100,000Hz with data being recorded at 10,000Hz by an external data logger. This data could then be plotted against time to see how the load was applied, how long it took to reach peak force etc etc. point being, at 10,000 Hz and being able to see the entire data track it looks as if the true peak force could have still been missed. it would be interetsing to see the tests repeated with some serious load cells and data logging equipment to see what those peak loads really were and to testing a variety of anchor set ups with 2 man loads. Another interesting point would be to see tests done on factor 2 falls onto a dyneema sling, personally i always attach myself to the master point with something dynamic. If you fancy some extra info about my work then feel free to message directly and lets see what can be done or if i can assist in any way with adding some scientific knowledge.

I admire your courage for doing that test yourself 💪

I really want to see some human tested daisy chain fall tests. That would be very interesting to see (or potentially frightening depending on results). If you end up doing a video on this topic I’d be happy to kick in a little cash for supplies.

More climbing videos! Loving the content Ryan!

Thank you so much for this. You guys are awesome.

I think what you guys are doing is absolutely crazy! There are some shots when the camera looks down, and I can't watch! I obviously have no interest in doing what you do, but I have found your videos to be incredibly helpful regarding rigging and knots when we have to secure a line carrying a rather expensive cable cam. Thanks again for all the helpful information and truly entertaining videos! And now, I'm going to your patreon page to help contribute to what you're doing. Thanks!

Ryan you are amazing! Glad your at 100k subscibers now, well deserved!

You guys did a great test video.

Now I'm curious to see this type of thing done on all different types of anchor material (cord, dynaloop, rope, nylon slings, PAS). Maybe even add in some tests where the materials are wet.

Great to see some solid testing. Too much climbing lore is just word of mouth with no hard numbers.

Very interesting video, thanks for making these

Soooo good! Thanks Ryan!!

Great experiment as allways! I would be little bit scared to load the harness without dynamic element, no one says it must be the sling that breaks....

The stopper knots used in sliding-X type of anchor might be useful in a situation when you’re worried about potential rockfall which could easily cut on of the strands of the sliding-X anchor (so alpine climbing, when the anchor can not be placed to the side of the route line or protected by rock-feature; like a roof). It was super interesting to see the live tests on this topic 🙌🏼

I think all of what was found here has been pretty well understood and discussed. Petzl, DMM, and many others have written about. When you read about fall factors, a factor 2 fall is considered to be pretty much theoretical since it is falling twice the length of the sling/rope with a static stop. As mentioned in this video, the human body will absorb some of that shock and if there is dynamic rope involved the shock will be further reduced. I think the big takeaway from all of it is that when you are connected directly to an anchor, at a belay or otherwise, you should aim to keep your tie-in below the anchor and keep it taught. That should avoid the vast majority of the shock loading potential.

This is the most informative, yet hysterical, video I've watched ever. Fucking awesome.

I will add tho ive been watching your channel for a fair while now and its incredible to see someone put their money and life where their mouth is and really test there logic. i dont dispute the reasonable accuracy of the static testing on the slacksnap machine and with cells in your highline anchors, space nets etc but the dynamic stuff could likely use a little more thought

Watching this one again, lmao!! He keeps asking Bobby for reasurance and all he gets is silence😂😂😂

Super interesting man, thanks!

Awesome video! A huge thanks for using your own body in the name of science! Pretty sure I felt my pelvis and spine crush everytime you dropped haha.

Great video. Thanks a lot!

Dude, love you guys for doing this. This s@*% scares me! Good to know the facts!

Wow, cool. Highly education and entertaining. Thank you!

Coming from the UK we generally avoid the sliding X when climbing and now rarely use them when highlining as well, going for an equalised overhand (climbing) or a BFK (highlining). It is really interesting stuff, but please keep safe, 4kn falls are brutal. I look forwards to seeing your tests on shockloads when a line is under tension e.g. highline/ tyrolean. It would be interesting to see if these forces would be doubled if there was two people weighting the anchor in a hanging belay situation. It would be interesting to see forces should a lead climbing take a big fall, or if there was slack in the system and your second took a fall causing one anchor to fail. Though again please don't hurt yourself! Most of the time I've thought about using a sliding X has been when I've had marginal pieces of protection, but even then subsequent 2kn loads could cause the other pieces to fail. Having seen bolts/ pieces of gear fail I usually stay clear of this. If an anchor piece was to fail and slide it could potentially drag the belayer of the ledge resulting a second fall. Thanks for you research, it really is great to see.

Not sure if I missed it, but what if there's a harness failure from getting totally whacked in these videos? Didn't check to see if you guys did a test on this yet but something I was thinking about

Sliding X times 2 gets my vote. Thanks for the awesome content man.

I'm not even a climber but I enjoy your experiments.

Those numbers sure looked like they showed a shock load happening. It's a good thing you have enough safety factor to account for the shock load. (Plus a backup)

Hey! Great video! I've got a question: do you think the fact that you're holding to the rope above the dynamometer during falls affected results? Thanksss keep up the good work!!!

A curiosity, what kind of carabiner or system did you use to loosen the anchorage and cause the fall?

"I think human testing is fun" - You "I think human testing is fun when you are doing it" - Me Good luck brother.

Would you repeat this experiment using cams instead of bolts? I normaly use dyneema slings with a sliding-x and never tie knots in my slings but the sudden load increase + slight change of direction have me worried that the cam might pull out... (my local crag is table mountain in SA, horizontal breaks at the stances is commonplace.) Whats your thoughts on the subject?

thanks for the informations! if I can give you a tip for a video, it would be interesting to see how lead rope solo falls load the anchor and the last protection clipped

Super awesome. Your best test ever! Sure would be great dropping a block of steel in the same manner, to pseudo-calibrate human vs. steel block.

My friend told me a story about one of his friends that was ascending a top rope at the gym to set a route. I think he was using one of the more original triangle shaped Petzl belay devises and he tied backup knots as he was ascending. The grigri failed and he didn’t tie a backup knot recent to when he fell and ended up falling 10-15 feet or so. Everything held fine but I think he broke his back, but he for sure had tons of back pain after the fall. This was on a (probably old) dynamic rope.

👏👏👏 kudos for doing the experiment yourself I'd rather put limiter knots in my slings if I'm using cams because 17-19 kn > 14 kn my cams are gonna break at. 2 slings for 2 sliding X's tho 🤔...

I love you and your nerd wisdom about exploding capillaries :)

To make it even more interesting you should strength test in the lab the runner you used for the anchor test to see if its strength was affected in any way after shock loading it

Thank you so much for conducting a real-world, systems-oriented experiment and analysis of whether we should even consider anchor extension. While there are some valid minor critiques in the comments, your thrust is right on. Concerns about failures caused by extension shock loads are a myth. I rejected such concerns over a decade ago, on this basis: First, as you have shown, dropping a statically suspended climber on static failure of one placement/leg, in an anchor with an extension less than many feet long, can't generate dangerous shock forces. This is because there is always significant stretch in the system relative to the fall distance - due to harness+climber even with no dynamic rope/cordage in the system. Then, ignoring for the moment the case of cutting a non-redundant connection leg, the other primary failure mode for lead climbing is a placement failing on an initial lead fall impact. It's simple to show that in any but a contrived scenario, the total impact force on the surviving placement on extension can at most be marginally higher that the impact force of the initial failure-causing fall, and are most likely weaker. Your tests help confirm that as well. The contrived scenario which proves the rule: a short high force-factor fall, onto an anchor with long legs, low-stretch anchor connections, an unequalized connection transferring the entire impact to only one placement, and that placement being dramatically weaker, so it fails first, before the system can absorb a significant portion of the initial fall energy. The solutions to this case are long established: 1) don't use bad+far-away placements, 2) equalize, 3) don't climb above your anchor on a low-stretch personal attachment, and 3) use a Jesus nut as soon as possible on lead. Plus: build your anchors with nylon, not Dyneema! Oh, and I've been evaluating the paired-sliding-x solution to lack of redundancy, using a separate opposed biner on each sling for full redundancy at all components, and so far it looks good. There is minimal issue with extra drag at the X, even with perfectly match sliding-X's, and every reason to be believe that equalization is good (not perfect) in stretchy nylon. Your two sliding X videos are great info on how to get effective equalization, at least with dyneema. And how not to.

Thanks bro!

Nice test, but it's shows that shock load is real, not a myth. Your weight is 0.8 kN approximately, it was loaded on master point - and there was on master point 4,44 kN in the worst case in your test, more then 5 times more! It is the most important - because in other test the shock load was absorb by dynamic rope. So, if I will belay my partner througth the master point, and he will fall down with FF about 2 - instead of 0,8 kN, after absorbing by dynamic rope, it will be about 8 kN on climber (max impact force for modern ropes) - and it means about 13,6 kN (8*1,7) on the master point. If in such situation one of anchor points will break - by your test, it will be impossible high force on the master point. Multiplication in your test is from 2,5 till 5,5 - so, after breaking anchor point on MagicX it will much more then 22 kN - and dyneema will be break too. Finally, especially for trad anchor, we have to think abou shock load a lot, and your test it is good demonstration of it.

Go Bobby Hutton!

This is an interesting and surprising result --- kudos for rigging something up and tying in for it yourself. That said, I would be strongly suspicious of a force sensor's ability to catch the peak force in an impact load while operating at 400Hz (we can skip discussion of the other sensor, since for any fast load, 40Hz is way, way too slow, as evidenced by the discrepancy in this video). I looked at the spec sheet for RockExotica sensor and it's thin on details that could be really relevant: compliance of the device itself, resonant modes, electrical filtering (antialiasing). None of that stuff would be relevant for most applications, but for detecting peak force they could make a huge difference. The data sheet's a bit cryptic but does say "Not for high speed," whatever that means. Anyway, your test is a bold one and an interesting datapoint, but without knowing just how sharp the force profile really is, a 400Hz sensor is far from a slam dunk and I would be very cautious before using this as the basis for changing anchoring behavior.

Awesome videos! I would love to see you guys test the debate on using a grigri for trad vs an ATC. Concern is added stress to protection in the event of a fall. Is using a non-abd device worth it? Also JUNO COFFEE IS AMAZING. Get some, it’s my go to outdoor coffee, plus in the office at times.

I feel like this experiment was only 1/2 done... I was expecting you to then tie a limiter knot and then fall again to compare the shock load of (with vs without), or did I miss that it was that done in another video?... yes the strength of sling is reduced with knots in it, but what forces are put on it with limiter knots in the system?

The issue I have with limiter knots is that you're compromising your first line of defense, equalization and strength of the sling, to accommodate a second line of defense of reducing shock load. I think the most important thing you want to keep is equalization since it has the greatest effect of maintaining the safety of your system. If you're having trouble maintaining equalization (e.g. top roping lots of adjacent routes), then skip the stopper knots. (although keep it redundant with the sliding x) Otherwise, use the stopper knots. Although enlightening, the problem with real-world tests is that you aren't controlling various variables involved. It's like using anecdotal evidence to rely on the infinite number of situations you may encounter. Plus, scary.

Another great video. Can I suggest another test? I'm into LRS and one suggestion for a ground anchor using the first 2 bolts on a sport route is 8 mm maillon and fig 8 onto bolt 1 and rope running through a 6 mm maillon on bolt 2. The idea is if bolt 1 fails the 8 mm maillon and fig 8 will jam into 6mm maillon on bolt 2. Any chance of testing this? Thanks guy from the UK. The via are useful but also funny as hell.

Not directly related but similar, Have you considered testing the forces from falling on via-ferrata? I would love to try those out.

Hey, I've been seeing more and more people using accessory cords for building anchors, most common one the quad. People use some technora or kevlar usually, but some even use regular nylon cord. I'm curious about the mbf for these when knotted with 4 strands (the quad). Cheers

I expected the forces to be less than the backbreaking 15-20kn drop tower tests we've all seen, but I didn't expect it to be that low.

Hey Ryan what do you guys think about using ballistics gel to imitate the human body for actual forces. I think it would act more like an actual situation. Just a thought. Your vids are great.

The Eiger Sanction reboot is wild.

for few years now i ditched the dynema webbing for anchor and use pieces of thin dynamic rope so no need to fear about shocks anymore. I think that's the recommended thing for anchors from international guides agencies nowadays. So what i use is 2m pieces of beal opera ropes that are thin but still rated for single roping. Just my 2cts...

The Germans, Italians and US have tested this. In the german test I read, extension resulted in a 40% higher peak load if one leg failed BUT their numbers were inline with what you saw - ~4.3kN - It's important to look at how different belays are rigged though. In their tests, a falling climber and Belayer (belaying with an HMS from a fixed point) both had rope attaching them to the main anchor point. In other testing, where the the belay was off the harness and the belayer connected with a tether, the acceleration of the belayer downward by the falling climber (factor 2) created HUGE forces (up to 32g) capable of breaking slings. The DAV has removed all equalizing (eg extending) anchors from their instruction because of extension hazards. One should avoid tying knots in any sling if at all possible.

Hi, thanks for all this Amazing job. About building an anchor with 2 dyneema sling sliding x serms intersting for redondancy but if a rocks fall it may cut the 2 slings because they will be AT the same place, too close from each other and you kind of lose the redondancy i think. What do you think ?

assuming i have a static rope (for jugging) connected to my sliding x and one bolt fails, the forces could be fatal, right? is there a safer way to rig a static rope?

I think shock loading on cams or nuts placed on glass is a bad situation, I’m bummed you didn’t mention anything about that. If we are on two bomber bolts that are rated 20+ and our slings are 20kn+ then you’re right it is a myth. Not when it comes to ice screws or bad rocks. I’ll take a bfk over risking a hollow flake. I love your channel Ryan!!!

this dude is the linus of the outdoors

dude thankyou for putting in your efforts towards everything gravity related, truly appreciated across the globe, you rock man!

What is that big black thing in the lower left of your pegboard?

I don't understand a word, but it's still fun to watch^^

I suppose the idea beyond limiter knots on climbing anchor sling is that it would be shock loaded if the leader falls, not the second. Fall factor even in the last fall was well below 1. So it would be much more useful to test a possible leader fall on sliding X scenario, although I doubt it can be human tested in a safe manner.

Could you set up a way to safely shock load a pas like the metolius22? like clipping in climbing above it and taking a fall?

😁 wow I haven't felt felt comfortable with getting off the 7 ft anchor yet. I like to climb upto it since it's a column of mortared granite and drop in from the side to recreate the 18ft one. Think I'll use a personal anchor to get out there then set up my atc

I like this channel and your videos. As I work in a vertical realm the videos are also helpful in that regard. My question is this: is the video footage admissable as "professional" expert subject matter reference or is it anecdotal amateur reportage?

What an interesting idea of using two similar slings for sliding X! But I believe it won't increase redundancy near as much as a pair of knots on the sling. If some flying rock (or friction on the edge etc) will hit your anchor it will cut even the doubled sling.

Did you test the two sling sliding X or make a video about it?

I'm curious to see how well old bolts hold up? I think it's great to update new bolts. But is it still safe to climb on old bolts?

Pre-Family Friendly Ryan is gold.

The one thought I had was before trying something you don’t understand make sure you’ve got redundancy. I know the loads are low, if you’re only wearing one harness. If shockloading that is bad in some way, you’re gonna have a fun trip to the bottom😅 I would definitely have a backup harness on before testing things in a way you’re not supposed to!

That story was about Colonel Stapp, who was testing acceleration and deceleration forces on the human body during high speed flight

I think I might just put two sliding x slings in now rather than limiting knots. I’m sold.

@13:25- yes with 2 sliding xs you have material redundancy for high forces, but not necessarily for abrasion or rockfall. A rock will snap both just as easy as one, limiter knots or a bhk consolidate the redundancy closer to the load / belay. Will this ever matter? For anyone reading, probably not. But it has happened where rock fall struck high on one leg of an anchor severing it and what saved them was that the knot adding redundancy was lower ie/ closer to the load. In their case, redundant sliding xs would have killed them.

I heard a ''bag of water'' hit the deck from 12 metres up. Sounded like a car crash. He was lucky to survive.

A friend and I were discussing this and he was concerned with the heat generated from the sling rubbing against the metal connector as one leg failed in the shock load event. Does anyone have an opinion, anecdotes or data on the amount of heat generated in very similar events as demonstrated here? He supposed it could pose a threat to the integrity of the dyneema sling, as it has a low melting point. I supposed it's likely inconsequential and not getting the metal nearly hot enough to matter - something like climbing on a scorching summer day. Thoughts?

Does anyone know of a video that tests if using detergents on climbing ropes really weakens them? If not this guy should do a video on that!

¿can you analyze DMM video about dyneema breaking?

This testing routine has a Sphincter Factor of 12 out of 10. 🤣. Cheers from Michael. Australia.

"Augh! I hate lab tests!" ... "Is there any way to make this safer?" yea lol, build a better lab test

I have a personal experience with shock loading. I took a factor 2 fall onto a dyneema daisy chain that was clipped into a 0.75 ultralight camalot. There was no dynamic element - just a cam clipped into a dyneema daisy that was girth hitched to my harness. The cam held and the daisy did not break. It was painful and I ended up with a lower back injury that I can still feel a year later.

In my opinion this kind of shockloading its like a 0.75 factor... there 's a shockloading..i need to know how gonne be favtor 1 - 1.075 - and factor 2... cool!! And gooood A-rush!!

Very good

ahhhh! this might be stupid question,.,.when you climb do you leave your anchors behind ,.,.how do you recover them or does the guy behind take them as he passes them.,,..idk how to ask really.,,.??

It would be very interesting if you load tested rusty looking bolts/hanger that needed to be replaced anyway. The type that sketch you out when you're thinking about climbing on them.

Thanks!