Cold War Belgium: Comparing the Vigneron M1 and M2 SMGs

Рет қаралды 82,526

6 ай бұрын

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The Vigneron was Belgium's standard submachine gun during the early years of the Cold War. It was originally adopted as the M1 in 1953, and about 21,300 were made. In 1954, several modifications were made, resulting in the M2 pattern. Many of the original M1s were converted to M2 specification, and subsequent new production was of course in the M2 pattern. The specific changes were:
- A protective hood was added to the front sight
- The spring catch for the ejection port cover was redesigned and strengthened
- The rear sight was changed form an aperture to an open notch
And, of course, the magazine well markings changed to indicate the new pattern. Because of the upgrades made to existing guns, M1 pattern Vignerons are pretty scarce today. Many thanks to the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History in Brussels for giving me access to film this one for you! Check them out here:
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Пікірлер: 140

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

This was my first weapon to shoot during basic training at Heverlee , in the bunker near the blocks. And immediately an incident: hot cartridge landed in a conscript’s neck, he pulled the gun and 20 rounds strafed the ceiling. The sergeant slapped his face and kicked him outdoors - because he had not closed his shirt as instructed.

@Razgriz85 6 ай бұрын

Range masters have no tolerance for dumb shit on their range. I remember being on the live fire range in Army ROTC in college and some idiot switched his M16A2 into 3 round burst, which promptly got the range master to call a cease fire, and out of the corner of my eye I saw him quickly walk over to the one that did it, ripped the rifle out of his hands, cleared it, and then proceeded to smash the back of his kevlar helmet with the butt of the rifle for good measure before kicking the guy off the range for the day. I remember hearing a ton of yelling during the whole process.

@RandomGuy9 6 ай бұрын

@@Razgriz85was probably worth it.

@eduardotrillaud696 6 ай бұрын

Whoa

@wimve4719 6 ай бұрын

@@Razgriz85 I gave weapon training on the Browning pistol and FAL rifle. I kicked more than one of them off the range. Mind you, I was a conscript myself, not professional and had to train conscripts. After that, I had to do grenade throwing practice ... luckily, never with live grenades 😀Or I probably wouldn't be able to share this ...... Oh, and I forgot LAW training ... I never won the lotery but based on what transpired during those days, I should have hit the jackpot multiple times. And then there is dog training .... Maligators??? Yeah, I had quite the eventful time in the military.

@odirceR 5 ай бұрын

@@RandomGuy9 lucky

@BaronSamedi1959 6 ай бұрын

I had one as a Forward Observer Officer during my military service in 1983/84. The barrel was so worn out that even at a distance of 20m, it was difficult to hit a man sized target. The best you could do was aim at the feet of the target, see the impacts on the ground, use that as your guidance and let the weapon climb of its own and rip through the target.

@ncrvako 6 ай бұрын

This and the m3 grease gun have this pleasant minimalist practical design.

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

Conscripts loved them because they were easy to clean and disassemble Barrel screw loose, butt wire , unscrew back and spring + bolt came out . Butt wire had a split at one side to put a cloth in it to clean the barrel. Safety in the hand guard

@DevinMoorhead 6 ай бұрын

Mount up early gang

@morora.9312 6 ай бұрын

Reporting for duty

@buncer 6 ай бұрын

Call me roller-delayed.

@FiikusMaximus 6 ай бұрын

We ride at dawn

@wastedangelematis 6 ай бұрын

History of Weapons & War repoting in too

@fighter3sleyer436 6 ай бұрын

Hi hi captain

@vincentmueller3717 6 ай бұрын

In the 1950's there was a Belgian military museum housed in an old Zeppelin hanger. If memory serves, that one was a private museum, open to the public. In a magazine article on it, many arms from both world wars and before were on display, including Gatlings,Nordenfeds, Henrys, artillery pieces, lances, also flags, and even a Jingling Johnny. Not a weapon, but an interesting military item, nonetheless. I imagine it has been incorporated into a state museum collection somewhere, but if it still exists, what an extraordinary show you could film.

@causewaykayak 6 ай бұрын

Maybe You yourself might research that interesting piece of history. Would indeed be fascinating.

@mikeblair2594 6 ай бұрын

@@causewaykayak Your picture thingy for youtube is the British broad arrow signifying ownership of the crown.......why? It's cool and all, but I think I'm just confused

@causewaykayak 6 ай бұрын

@@mikeblair2594 Its WD + Yes the Broad Arrow signifies government property (Convicts Uniforms years ago ) the horizontal line above is a chase into stone or metal. It provides a reference point for elevation above a datum. Used for surveying until GPS popped up. The datum has changed a few times over the years since it's introduction - the changes recorded with precision - In mainland UK it is a sea level measurement originally taken from a cut chase on a sea wall at Newlyn Cornwall England. Ireland has its own originally based on a mark at Dublin's North Wall lighthouse. Lots of detailed history online. The dimensions of the original official Benchmark are just visible in that picture. There are hundreds of thousands of these marks all over the UK. The system integrates with other countries national systems for many purposes including the Tilting of the European Land Mass. Me, I'm an old fashioned map and compass walker and use a variety of barometers. I care for some of the Benchmarks as I use them for calibrating the electronic one's (Useful for walking). As a hobby interest I do try to promote non electronic means - celestial navigation , use of printed books as plant identification keys - Stuff like that. The british Ordnance Survey have a full database of these survey marks which is available from them as a download. GPS is really very new and quite fragile. These carved stones are basic and don't need much maintenance. Just rub off the moss when you need to. They are already disappearing though as no one seems to recognise what they are good for. Hope that is of interest.

@geodkyt 6 ай бұрын

I wonder if the addition of the hood wasnt also implemented because of guys gashing their hands on that front sight - looks pretty prone to ripping stuff up when you're working around the gun without much attention placed, as soldiers doing "other stuff" often end up doing.

@sthenzel 6 ай бұрын

My thought as well! Less to protect the sight, more to protect the user.

@fratercontenduntocculta8161 6 ай бұрын

I love how small and skinny they are. Brilliant little guns.

@paleoph6168 6 ай бұрын

I've been interested in the Vigneron submachine gun, due it surprisingly being the only SMG/PDW-like small arm made in Belgium until the P90 was produced. And you even feature the rarer M1 variant? Thank you for sharing this, Ian!

@SavageShooter93 6 ай бұрын

Wait they went from nothing to this gun and then the P90? What the hell?

@Ghelasin 6 ай бұрын

@@SavageShooter93 Belgium, and Fabrique National Herstal in particular, made a _Lot_ of guns, both before and after this, only the two domestic SMG's though

@SavageShooter93 6 ай бұрын

@@Ghelasin Lol I know, I was saying that its odd that they went from no SMG to a pretty decently flushed out economically made SMG then to the P90 its an odd progression.

@lakisg2289 6 ай бұрын

@@SavageShooter93 they olso prodused UZOS

@SavageShooter93 6 ай бұрын

@@lakisg2289 Manufacturing is different than designing. Its odd the two domestic SMG's are pretty normal and then the P-90

@Emdee5632 6 ай бұрын

I live in the country to the north of Belgium. I believe the first time I was aware this weapon existed was when I was watching an Flemish TV documentary about the Belgian army in the 1980s. It looked HUGE. At the time I knew the Dutch army was using the more compact Uzi but apparently the southern neighbours had chozen for something much bigger. To my (much younger) eyes it seemed like a weird mix of pre-WW2 and more modern design elements. I later found out the Vigneron did actually NOT weigh a ton, just about 3 kg empty I think. So yes comparing it to the Uzi can be done. It's just much bigger unfolded.

@Smintjes 6 ай бұрын

This was my dad’s service weapon when he was a conscript in 1967.

@milloons2847 6 ай бұрын

If I recall well this was the standard weapon given to (truck) drivers. As a conscript you were given the weapons that were disqualified for the career military. Often 30+ years old still with the original barrel which explains the testimonies below. I wasn't fond of its concept: some plumbing hw that surprisingly could fire ammo.

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

Right: my basic training was as a truck driver. But some weeks later I entered a recce platoon as their Unimog driver with a FAL as personal weapon.

@robert8984 6 ай бұрын

Interesting little fact: Belgium has 3 official languages; Dutch, French and German. But they only stamped on two of them.

@KincadeCeltoSlav 6 ай бұрын

Isn't Flemish its own distinct language, Germanic, but neither German or dutch ? Or is it considered a dutch? dialect?

@tomalong99 6 ай бұрын

@@KincadeCeltoSlav The OP means that some parts of Belgium actually speak German and its an officaly recognised langguage. Its no wonder the people of Belgium are known as great linguists.

@causewaykayak 6 ай бұрын

@@KincadeCeltoSlavDutch dialect . Nautilus the seaman's union paper is bilingual in English and Flemish. German is around 1% of belgian first languages I think. Flemish is I think by far the majority tongue.

@Grouuumpf 6 ай бұрын

@@KincadeCeltoSlav the *official* language is dutch, though in practice the local flemish dialects are widely spoken

@BaronSamedi1959 6 ай бұрын

@@KincadeCeltoSlav Dutch is the official language of Flanders and is taught at school. In theory Netherlands Dutch and Flemish Dutch should be the same, but in practice they are both variants of the standard Dutch. And both the Netherlands and Flanders have many dialects. The Brabant dialect in Flanders (the dialect spoken in Antwerp) is arguable the closest to standard Dutch.

@joachimtaverne5035 6 ай бұрын

Thanks, now I know what my father was talking about when he spoke of "Vigneron" during is conscript time. Also little correction about the "ABL" , the "B" is indeed for "Belge" for the french part but must be read as "Belgisch" for the Dutch part so ABL = "Armée Belge/Belgisch leger" (yeah nipticking, I know but that's the joy of living in Belgium some time ^^ )

@PawFromTheBroons 6 ай бұрын

The GN in Vigneron is pronounced like the beginning of NYET, in Russian. French names can be tricky, like that.

@AshleyPomeroy 6 ай бұрын

The odd-looking overstamped M2 at 03:00 gives me a renewed respect for the British habit of calling minor upgrades Mark Something Star.

@stumpythedwarf8712 6 ай бұрын

Thank you Ian, I love these short videos. I have a short attention span for anything much longer than fifteen minutes. Thirty plus minutes, I'm not even going to try.

@Pattamatt1998 6 ай бұрын

A delightful birthday present. Thanks for all you do Ian :)

@rogerjohnson8707 6 ай бұрын

If you own an MP-40, contrary to what some may say, Vig parts are not compatible without knowledge of metal working.

@paulcrusse7800 6 ай бұрын

Thank you for all of your hard work.

@hoilst265 6 ай бұрын

You've got to admire the optimism of those who put cooling fins on an SMG - like they expected people to be laying down full on suppressing fire against a sustained attack by a whole regiment. And man, how did these not end up covered in greebles in Star Wars?

@dscrappygolani7981 6 ай бұрын

What I find even more optimistic is that Belgium has an army .... evidently

@countrugensfriend350 6 ай бұрын

@@dscrappygolani7981 The Belgian Army was a tough bloodthirsty bunch for a long time. Check colonial history.

@causewaykayak 6 ай бұрын

@@countrugensfriend350 Quite right. Also brilliant civil engineers as well as fine mechanics such as firearms. (From the neighbours in the UK😊)

@saiberunato 6 ай бұрын

@@countrugensfriend350Like the Portuguese, the Belgians were formidable empire builders despite their size.

@AllahDoesNotExist 6 ай бұрын

@@countrugensfriend350nah Belgian king Leopold I used local tribes to do warfare and policing. Belgian soldiers did not do much white-on-black violence.

@Matt-md5yt 6 ай бұрын

Pretty cool smgs and the comparisons between the models. Also funny, they have the M destination marker also.

@bhk7777 6 ай бұрын

Always glad to see your “product” reviews!

@ltournay 6 ай бұрын

im belgian, from what I heard from people who were issued those during their mandatory service in the 80s/90s they were like as much as they were reliable : not much.... my uncle almost died when one did had a malfunction on the range and fired its whole magazine, almost taking his face, his commander let him shoot his Hi-power pistol after that until the end of his term (he was a truck driver) i dont know if its just because they were old but most other soldiers in his unit did not have a very good opinion on them and in the unit of my dad cousin which also had some, they would too avoid these if possible

@Wonderelijke_Wereld 5 күн бұрын

I did my military service in 1992 in the medical component of the Belgian Army. The Vigneron was then the self-defense weapon of the medical service. During training with the weapon, I noted that it tended to go up pretty quickly when fired automatically. I also noticed that by 1992 the Vigneron was worn out and jammed several times. We told each other that it was better to throw the Vigneron at the enemy and keep the bullets until you found a real weapon to defend yourself like the Browning High Power.

@cmf.atwill 6 ай бұрын

Love the history to see how the technology advanced on the weapons. Have watched your channel for some time and am impressed with your knowledge and expertise of production. Ian, you truly have found a fantastic career path to find your way thru life. Fun, travel, access to phenomenal weapons. What a dream job...I salute you. 👍

@MrRobertFarr 6 ай бұрын

I the late 90s I used to see a lot of quiet , generally solitary men. Looking mysterious in their Belgian Army coats. I asked one , what the flag was or the brand probably and. He said with a smile : "Belgium" . That's how I remember it anyway. I think someone later explained they were Belgian Army surplus coats and I wondered how they found their way to Plymouth. Europe.

@windwalker5765 6 ай бұрын

Ian, I know it's not a very historic or mechanically interesting gun, but I'd love an explainer on the Ruger 10/22. For an awful lot of Americans, for almost 60 years now it was their first gun, the one kids learned on.

@GCho733 6 ай бұрын

Looks like a blaster from Star Wars.

@neadst 6 ай бұрын

I think it's actually appeared - with barrel and stock removed - as the SE-14 blaster pistol (or at least, a very similar real-world firearm to this one was used)

@mehmetkaraoglu5937 6 ай бұрын

Thanks for high quality content.

@chesterfield7770 6 ай бұрын

During my time in the Belgian army ( 1986-1987 ) i hated this thing . As a weapon it was more efficient to use it as a club than trying to shoot a target 10 meters away . . .

@chrishahn3834 6 ай бұрын

It took me 3 times reading the title to realize it didn't say Vinegaroon.

@viktordtz2080 6 ай бұрын

Very rare to find vidéos about this Sub machine gun...

@peterjansoone 2 ай бұрын

I had a Vigneron from '52 when I did my service in '84 , it was more effective to throw than to shoot.

@Se7enBeatleofDoom 6 ай бұрын

Looks like the M3 grease gun little brothers.

@dilfbag 6 ай бұрын

🤘🥳🤘Happy New Year Ian!

@gps1965 6 ай бұрын

I’m pretty sure this SMG inspired the design of the Prinztronic Thundercolt light gun manufactured in the late 1970s.

@theblitz6838 6 ай бұрын

I know people who served with these smg's. They absolutely hated them, tho they were easy to field strip and maintain. It practically was used as a pray&spray bush/street sweeper. (Edit: These guys were Belgian Black Beret's stationed near the Iron curtain.)

@dirkschelfhaut100 6 ай бұрын

Had one during my conscipt time in the army, easy to take apart, trowing the pieces gives you a greater chance of hitting something….

@Willy_Tepes 6 ай бұрын

These look great, I've always wanted one.

@Bigstarrocker9 6 ай бұрын

It looks like something the rebels used during the Hoth battle in The Empire Strikes Back Fine looking firearm

@PDeRop 6 ай бұрын

I shot these when I was in the Army in 1992-1993.. the first time you shoot these.. the first bullet is on the target.. the rest is in the ceiling ;)

@PDeRop 6 ай бұрын

I don't remember the hinge door.. but it was a long time ago.

@chesterfield7770 6 ай бұрын

I shot these in 86-87 . At 20 meters the first bullet may luckily be in a big target , the rest of the 10 bullets they gave you should stay in the magasine due to a malfunction or the barrel fell off . . . I was a medic and they gave me that thing in place of a much beloved FAL .

@PDeRop 6 ай бұрын

@@chesterfield7770 I don’t remember many jams.. the FAL was ok.. our company weapon was the FNC. 😊

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

@@PDeRopthe hinge door popped open when you charged the weapon.

@chesterfield7770 6 ай бұрын

I was a medic so PDW only . These things were very old and very used . The barrels were nearly smooth . The trigger on our models was awful and you had to squeeze the grip safety as hell to be able to shoot . @@PDeRop

@mothmagic1 6 ай бұрын

For practical purposes if you are close enough to use an SMG you are close enough to ignore the sights.

@agoogleaccount2861 Ай бұрын

So elegant looking. Its Slender uncluttered and somewhat minimalist

@blamingfish432 6 ай бұрын

Did anyone else get an inbox notification that this was just uploaded today? even though its 4 days old...... youtube always being weird anyways always a cool video from Ian

@Sssaaatttuuurrrnnn 6 ай бұрын

Putting the front sight blade in front of the compensator holes is an interesting choice.

@stevendepauw3742 3 ай бұрын

Thats an iconic gun from the "Dienst" time, lots of bad stories about that gun still going around :)

@murrayscott9546 6 ай бұрын

I'm glad that you're all still around to tell the tales. Here's to those thant arent

@RufusRufio-fe3xz 6 ай бұрын

These are cool

@someguy2741 6 ай бұрын

Leave it to the bureaucrats to remove useful features like the integrated back scratcher.

@valvlad3176 6 ай бұрын

Excusez-moi, what year it was 1953? Were they at least ten years behind smth like PPS-43? Let me know about a comparison of AKM and these SMGs, you probably had them in hands, not in any tactical sense of course, but at least in a sense of shooting range level. Well I know Belgium was not USSR, but I had a little bit better opinion of them taking in mind Nagan and Mosin. Désolé pour mon français - I would appreciate your response.

@Axemantitan 6 ай бұрын

This must be your shortest video ever.

@brettellis1837 6 ай бұрын

Be bloody wild if fitted with a red dot.

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

No way. It is utterly rubbish

@murrayscott9546 6 ай бұрын

Spay and pray. Bless us,everyone.

@shawnflynn1713 6 ай бұрын

Brought to you by the same people who wore jigsaw camo!😂😅.

@Narses_the_aremnian 6 ай бұрын

Other way around

@JRockySchmidt 6 ай бұрын

What would I do at work if i didnt have forgottenweapons to watch 😂

@phileas007 6 ай бұрын

The vinegaroon of SMGs

@amypeplinski6276 6 ай бұрын

Any 1889 Belgium Mausers in there???

@ReboyGTR 6 ай бұрын

*Nope, P90.*

@wimve4719 6 ай бұрын

Yeah, I had one as an ammuntion convoy protection sergeant. These weren't exactly accurate. We changed out for the FAL. Speaking 1984.

@cjphillips90 6 ай бұрын

Thank you for the video. Commenting for the Algorithm.

@macdaddysteeze1659 6 ай бұрын

Ahhh an imperial blaster nice

@imk2007 6 ай бұрын

I love Belgian guns

@nopeman036 6 ай бұрын

Gaston Glock, the inventor and producer of the legendary Glock pistol, has passed away. Gaston Glock 1929-2023, may he rest in peace.

@av8bvma513 5 ай бұрын

"Us Guys Enjoyed The Video!"

@boylukefirearms 6 ай бұрын

👍🏼👍🏼

@ryleeculla5570 6 ай бұрын

What about the Walter ppk

@piotrtg_SP9TDC 6 ай бұрын

Pozdrawiam serdecznie

@danosdotnl 6 ай бұрын

No 1 looks like a freaking bayonet

@mikeblair2594 6 ай бұрын

Flemish not Dutch. Close, but no cigar!

@namflashback 6 ай бұрын

Volledig waar, groetjes uit vlaanderen)

@thekraken1173 6 ай бұрын

AN94 range video when?

@2Potates 6 ай бұрын

He already did one.

@thekraken1173 6 ай бұрын

@@2Potates He did a takedown video at royal armories. He never shot it afaik.

@2Potates 6 ай бұрын

@@thekraken1173 Oh i misread that. Well Garand Thumb released a video of himself shooting it a couple of days ago.

@murrayscott9546 6 ай бұрын

Oh, those Flems ! Bruges !

@stuka97 6 ай бұрын

Ian ,How's your French coming along, still studying.

@wastedangelematis 6 ай бұрын

DAyum...a new video per Day... Isn't nice despite war we can still travel across globe unlike the Carantine ?!?

@Badjas69 6 ай бұрын

My grandpa was send to yhe congo as a paratrooper with a vigneron

@Cats-TM 6 ай бұрын

Apparently Austrian inventor Glock (famous for Glock) has died at the age of 94 today.

@otakubancho6655 6 ай бұрын

Does everybody know what time it is?,Toob Time!😏😏😏

@martinkineavy9039 Ай бұрын

Congo guns

@johntory8330 6 ай бұрын

Giv imbel IA2

@ReboyGTR 6 ай бұрын

*Hey Ian, is Belgium just fake France?*

@woutergijs5246 6 ай бұрын

Our unbeloved country is just an artificial creation.

@snakegum9288 6 ай бұрын

Ah yes, The Rust SMG.

@jasongcrow5313 6 ай бұрын

This video is real, right?

@davidno1minton997 6 ай бұрын

Look,slike,at,22

@makanaokalanichong808 6 ай бұрын

Check out hawaiis new gun law to stop anyone from owning a gun. Hawaii needs your help.

@gun_nut9550 6 ай бұрын

@MediumTim 6 ай бұрын

abl: armee Beligique/Beligisch leger.

@weswolever7477 6 ай бұрын

Belgium … The most vulgar word in the galaxy according to the Hitchhikers Guide

@alangordon3283 6 ай бұрын

Awful things

@paul-yu8kl 2 ай бұрын

c'était de la merde