Wtf she just outed him by looking through his mind. that’s messed up

"Hello, and welcome to Bobby Drake, where I talk about Iceman and my name is Drake" was far more delightful than I was prepared for

The biggest problem was the initial clumsiness of his outing... Having Jean Grey be the one to out Bobby is a huge invasion of privacy at best and forever casts a shadow of doubt over this situation given Jean's powers at worst...

looks like Jean is pretty bad at breaking the ice. I'll see myself out...

You know it's funny that Family Guy actually predicted that he was gay

Well regardless if people support homosexuality or not, they really shouldn't give this hero the *cold* shoulder.

My only problem with it is how it was established. Jean should’ve just read Young Bobby’s mind, and she gave him a look. Then later she catches him looking at Angel or something and that’s when he tells her, and it’s a secret. Then there’s an issue where Young Bobby comes out in front of the whole X-men team, forcing Modern Bobby out of the closet. Giving us the happy gay and the resentful gay, and them reconciling later.

Being bi myself I felt anoyed at how dismissive Jean was about the possibility that Bobby could be bisexual. like "that doesn't exist!" which is something we hear IRL both inside and outside the community.

As a gay man - Holy cow. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a straight person so eloquently explain the gay experience. Clumsy and lazy storytelling about outing, biphobia from within the LGBT community, complete absence of judgement for those within and without the gay perspective. Love for the comics and respect for LGBT without pandering at all. You have my respect. Nicely done 👍🏼

The way Jean did that is soooo wrong! It pisses me off so much.

Thank you for showing biphobia, even inside the community. I'm bisexual and honestly, we also have problems within the community such as pan-phobia, transphobia, and ace-phobia.

I feel that the greatest problem with all of this is how forced it appears and how cardboard the characters seem. But I don't really read Iceman that much, so it's just about taste.

Stills screams bi-erasure to me, and Bendis’ trend of bad writing at the time certainly didn’t help.

“Bobby your gay.” “Well shucks”🤷‍♂️

Bobby Drake, Comic Drake... *Coincidence? I think not!*

I agree that the reveal was done incredibly poorly. I have to respectfully disagree with your point at 7:32. I think it is perfectly acceptable to consider alternative storylines that would have better fit the character's previously established history. Having Ice-man come out as bi would have felt less out of nowhere and not have diminished stories where Ice-man was in relationships with women. I think this would have been a more interesting plot. With a focus on Bobby coming to terms with another repressed element of his sexuality & identity as well as the prejudice many bi people experience. This would have also built on Bobby's character without retconning other previously established character traits & stories.

Imma be honest. People wanted something thats not forced or random, but in real life coming out often is unexpected and random so it does kinda make sense how it just comes out of nowhere.

I’m gay myself and have had numerous girlfriends. So in reality him having female lovers isn’t insane.

As a bisexual 17 years old man/boy (whatever), I didn't like how they made him gay, not just because it wasn't his decision but because it wasn't on his character until Bendis. I understand that there is justification with previous stories for the change, and I liked the Iceman book while it lasted, but it felt like a strieght man trying to be progressive and it wasn't handled properly.

Iceman being gay makes no sense. In spiderman and his amazing friends he was like really into firestar but like he didn't go for it

Jean: Bobby spell ICUP Bobby: I-C-U-P Jean: Bobby yo gay lol

I knew a dude in college who flirted with women to the extreme. He was dating a female friend of mine. We lost touch and years later I looked him up on Facebook to discovered he married another guy. I was blown away! We’ve never had a conversation about this as we aren’t that close...but this video made me think of him so I shared

Iceman really would work better as a bisexual character. There was a story in Astonishing X-Men where Bobby gets possessed by the Apocalypse Seed and as it's going through Bobby's heart, mind and soul, it discovers that he truly did love Kitty Pryde and Mystique. There was a little moment about all of his exes coming in and that type of just comedy, all "Oh! Fuck my life! What am I gonna do?!" type of thing, but... The biggest thing is that it was really important to me because Bobby's one of the very few men in comics that were sexually assaulted and abused in a relationship (at least, that I knew of at the time) so I was able to find comfort in that and related to him, and that helped me push through. Making him "full gay" as Jean puts it erases that and just brings it back to the same kind of ridicule I faced saying that I couldn't be abused or assaulted because I was a man, or saying that "if I didn't want it, I had to be gay". I'm all for inclusion and I like both men and women, but making him gay after that really just seems to me that they don't care about the male victims and just further that mindset of "Men can't be assaulted/abused".

My biggest problem with it is that this disregarded all of his other relationships with women by saying nah he is fully gay and must be fully gay and not perhaps say a bi sexual. And the way Jean just forced him to confess by using her telepathy which made me question if it is truly his own feelings and not just her manipulation of him. I love Northstar since it doesn’t feel like they are trying to hard to gain brownie points. He’s also not a stereotype like Iceman on the cover.

Having a gay Mutant is a really good idea, especially given how Mutants are used as allegories, but changing an established character's sexuality with no build-up was bound to piss people off. If Marvel/Bendis wanted to make Bobby gay, they should've either done at least some build-up to coming out (beyond citing a few panels elsewhere) and what that means instead of just suddenly being like "You're gay" "No I'm not" "Uuuh you are" "Okay fine I'm gay". The other (better) options were, and I don't often say this, to make a new closeted gay character, allowing for this plotline but to explore those themes without baggage, and, uh, not involve time travelling telepathic outing. Or if they were feeling really bold, reveal Professor X and Magneto were lovers in the past.

I'm bi and in my opinion I have to agree that this was objectively terrible and forced writing. Bendis is always trying to get ally brownie points and it's just another reason to hate him as a writer lol. There's so many mutant characters they could've made gay and they had to choose perhaps the least interesting and least believable one out of all of them and one that specifically stirs up a lot of controversy and makes people more averse to LGBT characters being in comics by proxy and due to his longevity/legacy, hell, if they had to pick an O5 character to make gay then why not Beast? No one gives a fuck about his relationships whereas Bobby/Kitty was a huge thing for years...and I know this is a stereotype but he's always been somewhat of a campy guy in comparison to Bobby. Plus...seriously, I know you also said this in your video along with most of my other points but, why not just make him bi to avoid all the retcon-y stuff? Ugh, fucking Bendis, man. Also sorta off topic but it also mildly annoys me that Bobby got put straight into a book about him exploring his sexuality yet Deadpool, a much more believably closeted LGBT character whose struggle with his sexuality can be explored in much more interesting ways, has still never been allowed to express his attraction to men in any way that's not played off as a joke. The dude was basically straight up in love with Cable (at least those are the vibes I got) and that'll probably never get remarked on nor will his attraction to any other male characters yet Bobby gets a whole ass mini series about it. Shit sucks imo.

I'm lesbian and I've dated guys before I accepted my sexuality, I did experiment too. Iceman could have done all those things before and sometimes you just have to act straight to protect yourself or other reasons. And him being outed is probably the worst way to tell an audience a character is gay he should have been able to say it himself or that red haired girl should have confronted him personally and asked.

I still love Iceman, but his reveal was so badly written, I originally thought it was a joke. When I read that page I was so baffled, that I couldn't believe it. It felt crazy to me that Iceman could be gay, it's pretty out of character for him. Over time, I've come to accept it, though sometimes it feels like they're pandering and shoving his new sexuality down our throats (the cover of the new Iceman series is a good example, with his weird girly pose, and all the effeminate features drawn on the male characters). Iceman is still as funny and cool (pun not intended) as he's always been, the only difference is that instead of picking up ladies, he's gonna be picking up dudes, and while that is totally fine, it's too far out of left field to not be a topic of controversy, especially since it's not been handled too well.

I honestly think part of the problem was that Jean KINDA forced Bobby to come out of the closet instead of finding out about it via her powers and...well, talking with him about it. In the Avengers Academy, Striker (A blow heart electrokinetic hero who wanted to be famous...but also got molested as a kid and thus got targetted by NOrman Osborn) came out to Julie Powers, who was a well knwon bisexual heroine in her own right and a veteran kid hero. She talked with him and helped him work up the courage to accept his sexuality. THAT was a nice story and heped develop the character. THIS...feels kinda iffy because of how he got forced out of the closet instead of allowing himself to come out when he felt like he wouldn't be judged.

Why problem is less icemans gay and more the fact there are already a ton of characters they could have use.

doesn't Stan Lee being surprised that Iceman was gay prove he was never gay to begin with? I mean who would know better than the man who created him, right? just my observation.

So this is why you think it makes sense “in theory”, but the practice hasn’t held up so far. I’ve never really been a fan of Ice Man and the way I see it this actually gives his character something to do other than be the goofball.

Bobby being gay would be great, if they'd done it in a way where current timeline Bobby comes out in front of everyone, including his past self, and tells his past self to accept it and embrace it, and not be afraid. I would have loved if they'd explored that, and made it well. The way they did it? It almost looks like Jean MADE HIM GAY, because she arguably could with her telepathy, and depending on how time travel shenanigans work, turning young Bobby gay could turn current Bobby gay too. Edit: Should probably mention, I'm bisexual, and I would have been interested in the whole bi ignorance aspect that they could've done as well.

Doesn’t help that sina grace made him a stereotype

His tolerance towards Rogue and her "touch me and literally die" thing makes a lot more sense now.

I didn't understand my bisexuality until my 30s and I am still dealing with it. Humans are complex creatures.

You’ve opened me up to the idea of Iceman being gay. I’ve always been supportive of the LGBT community however I thought that changing Iceman’s sexuality seemingly out of nowhere was a bad move. This video has really changed my mind on the matter. It makes perfect sense that a closeted gay man would put on the facade of a womanizer to not only distract others from his true feelings but to also distract himself from them. Maybe he had an internalized prejudice towards homosexuality informed by his upbringing which made him feel the need to repress his sexuality.

5:45 while I do see your point. Iceman in his 80s limited series run literally said that he was In love with a women he saw for the first time (insert madonnas like a virgin here). Stan Lee in an interview said that he never thought of iceman nor any of his characters sexual identities.

I'm sorry man but I always felt they kinda forced this

So.... overall good video, and nice to have all the back issue reasons why his sexuality "works" in one spot. So please take this as constructive criticism, but I wouldn't call us gays "homosexuals". It's a clunky and clinical term that is most often used by those who think we don't deserve basic human rights. Like I cringed everytime you said it. I know that wasn't your intent, so again just think of this as a "hey btw" moment and not a "you're an idiot and now i'm going to unsubscribe" moment. Oh and on the topic of Iceman's solo series (his first on-going even!), I have to say that it was maybe the most relatable comic I have ever read. I personally loved every issue because it was maybe the first time I really saw "me" in a comic. That said, I am like you and enjoy interpersonal stories as much as I like action (maybe even a bit more). Probably why I like so much older Avengers stories when they never got along haha

As a bisexual transgender girl myself, I kinda hate the idea. I enjoy the concept of LGBT characters in the comic universe, but I strongly dislike the idea of taking a character who is known for his straightness, and making him gay.

even tho as a bi person I would love to see a bi iceman, given the whole thing with closeted gay people being in heterosexual relationships, being gay was a good choice too. the complete dismissal of him being bi in an almost joking manner felt a bit too close to saying that the idea that bi people existing is a joke which wasn't that good of an idea

My 8th grade math teacher was gay and he married a woman and had a kid before he told her he was gay

Oh hell naw. Don't make Iceman an LGTV

Well to be fair, most comics makes the male characters "ladies men" to make them "cool". I've always felt that Iceman and/or Beast were closeted. I thought they'd be bisexual, considering they did have "lady loves". I thought Marvel was flirting w/ the idea when they wrote stories where Iceman & Northstar became "lovingly close". Everyone saying "Iceman turned gay out of nowhere" clearly have no idea of the struggles of the LGBT+ community. They are unwilling and/or unable to realize that ppl have hid their sexuality ever since ppl were persecuted for it. Anyone who claims to be a fan of "mutants" should be able to understand the simple notion of "I'm different for most ppl, but if I reveal that difference I could be marginalized or even killed for it". And yes, as a bi guy myself, there's hate from within & outside of the LGBT+ community--so it's much easier to display a side which is more accepted by most (being "straight"). While some LGBT+ ppl have kids to further their facade, it should also be noted that most of them have kids becase they actually want a family of their own. While I don't necessarily agree w/ the way Marvel "outed" Iceman, I can understand it, because ppl are "outed" by those close to them all the time. If anyone should've outed Iceman, it should've been Emma Frost (who once possessed his body), because it's more in her character to dredge around in ppls' minds to gain an advantage over them, but to keep it a secret, until the time is right for her to enact her plan. Jean doing that seems totally out of character, especially since the 1st use of her power was psi-linking to the mind of her dying childhood friend--which traumatized Jean. I could see Xavier or Betsy knowing, but keepng it a secret, but having "teen Jean" just out him like that was not only bad writing, but also plain odd.

Peter Griffin says Iceman's gay. Good enough for me.

Good video as always. I always felt it's a good idea to make compelling stories about those who tend not to get a lime light.

3:45 As someone who lives in Tennesse I can confirm people do this.

Retconning Bobby to being gay since he was a teenager is bad enough, the way they went about revealing it was super scummy. Jean just reads his mind and outs him is extremely shitty, and it opens the door to the possibility that Jean herself altered his identity in the first place. Also with Bobby being a womanizer for most of his life, it's also lazy character to writing to just say "nope he was gay all along", especially when there are other characters who had rode the line of being either gay or bisexual. Hell, if Kitty came out as bisexual, nobody would bat an eye due to the amount of times she was oogling women in the 80's.

jean reading his mind without permission is already bad on its own but outing someone via telepathy is pretty scum baggy

Don’t get me wrong, I love we are getting more variety in comics. More gay characters, biracial, and even more trans characters. I love it, 100% agree with it and I’ll always be in support of it. That said, I’m in the camp that says Bobby should be Bi instead of gay. Bi characters don’t get as much as media attention plus it wouldn’t undermine all the other relationships Bobby has had. He could still go through all of these issues and relationship stuff without saying “all those previous relationships with women didn’t mean anything to him”. Oh well, too late now to do much about it.

Drake you seriously kill it @ video's! & loved the intro 😂

I feel like it would have made more sense if he was bisexual

This reminds me of the whole "Beast is gay" thing that Grant Morrison put into his New X-Men titles, in the mid 00's. Beast essentially "Came out" the exact same way, by telling an ex-girlfriend that he didnt think he'd be getting back with her because and I quote, "I think I'm gay". This went on for numerous issues where Beast would explain how he's gay via a in-universe magazine, and he'd be asked about his sexual orientation by his own teammates. The tasteless part IMO, is that Grant Morrison wrote it in a way where Beast just said he was gay without meaning it, and did it in the first place to challenge his intellect or some BS. But nobody ever talks about this, odd.

Great work. I love that your making videos that get people talking.

Family guy predicted this. LMAO

Is he gay or bi? Because him being completely gay kind of doesn't work with some older stories

Bobby being gay has really pissed me since Bobby x Kitty will always be close to my heart.

This is a great video. I've started collecting the Iceman comics and am really looking forward to reading them soon.

Can we just talk about how thorough that disclaimer from 4:40 - 5:12 was? Can we?

More like B-ice-exual am I right

And this whole video was way more thorough and tasteful than I was prepared for! You even found time to bring up bisexual erasure! Hell yeah! Of all the classic X-Men to be gay, I think Bobby really is the best choice. There's something about him that feels a lot more down to earth than most of the others, and this revelation drives that home for me. It makes it feel a bit more genuine, if that makes any sense.

That was a great report of this topic, I agree, wish these sorta discussions could happen more.

This is a great topic and video. I love that you chose to do this video. This is why I subscribed to this channel. You definitely have a great way in which you discuss your topics. Thank you and can't wait to see whats next

HOLY SHIT FAMILY GUY PREDICTED THE FUTURE!!!!

I don’t care about iceman being retconned to be gay or bi, but I think we can all agree Brian Michael Bendis just did this to push progress narrative. And Sina Grace’s run on ice man after that was just so terrible.

Thank you for your work and the sensitivity you put into this topic.

Thank you for making this.

Maybe I’m so against it because of bendis yes I’m ok blame bendis for my bitterness of this

Is no one talking about that ice men - wolverine scene in the movies, where they are practicly flirting with each other, blowing "ice" in wolverines "bottle" ?! :D

Thanks, you handled this sensitively and I appreciate that you did your research to cover gaps in your lived experience

This is a cool perspective on the topic granted I was unable to read the new series is discontinued but I feel like it works for a character like Ice Man and you tackled interesting things I never knew about or considered about this characters identity.

Who cares if he is gay as long as the story is good?

It has been 7 Years since Brian Michael Bendis decides to change his sexuality and nothing was done or explore about it. The Iceman Solo series was terrible, it's boring, poorly written, and had zero impact on the character. They did nothing about it in X-men Blue and there haven't been any other writers using that change to do anything interesting with him. Iceman is literally a D listed Hero now and I find that a crime since he is a founding member. In the beginning, I was expecting they do something with him to make him relevant since he is an excellent character but Now I can confidently say the change was made for Shock value and there was no plan about it. The fact he is gay now had zero impact in the way the character is written today so saying "Iceman Being Gay Kind of Works!" isn't true.

Thank you for doing this video!

Holy shit. Family Guy predicted this.

It was a truly awful, tasteless reveal but it did make sense. Iceman has been joked about being closeted for as long as I was old enough to understand what that means. The subtext was always there. I usually hate random switch ups like gender swaps, race swaps or orientation swaps(at least this far into the history, it's different if that was always the goal) but here it makes sense cuz a lot of closeted men tend to present an overly masculine, overly womanizing image because they're actively trying to convince you that they're straight, that's why people tend to think vehemently anti-gay people who get offended at even a joke hinting at them being gay, are actually gay, you're trying too hard so it shows it's an act. Not to mention there aren't many gays to begin with and the X-men had a lot of symbolism identifying with LGBTQ people, it's not a big stretch when you actually think about it, especially compared to a lot of other twists, people are just mad cuz gay is still not fully accepted.

"You have to be pretty blind to not appreciate that those are good looking dudes." Uh.... guess I am blind then. Or asexual, according to at least two of my friends^^

Great video! Keep up the excellent work Drake.

btw I love these types of videos, I would look forward to more these types.

For me, X-Men ended around the early 2000s, and I'm happy with that :) The '90s (the Jim Lee era) was my favorite era of the X-Men.

While I understand your reasoning I just feel like your making your own head canon rather than most of this being implied . Yes gays have been in heterosexual relationships but I don’t remember them addressing this when it comes to Ice Man and I think the reveal showed just how marvel saw this . A quick retcon Solely for tokenism.

Consistently one of the best channels on KZfaq! Keep doing your thing Drake!!!

I just read iceman and I'm confused. Who was Natasha Angel was talking about on the Hollywood sign?

Thanks for this video. I love Iceman now that he's out of the closet. Volume one did a decent job of writing Bobby's coming out in stages. I was upset with the toned down outtings in volume two. But really thank you for your support of the character, his transition , and the writer's choice I storytelling

I thought the idea was great, and re reading years of X titles it actually makes sense. His love interests always felt like he was flaunting it. Also his parents in the books were exactly the type that would inspiring staying in the closet. Funny that Emma Frost knew and was polite enough to just make an off hand joke, yet his team mate just blurts it out.

I think this vid was just as good as your other videos, i'm down with you going for more topics outside of just lore

This video is extremely well thought out and I think it’s a shame that there aren’t more of these in the Comic Drake library. It opened me up to a new idea, and it explored a major current event within the scope of comic books

This reveal felt really forced, considering it was a telepath going into someone's head. I don't know, I've always felt like it was closer to it being her pushing/influencing him to be gay.

I’m a gay man and what’s crazy is Iceman has always been my fave now I know why

This was well done Drake! :) much appreciated

This was a super super awesome video! As someone who only really reads Ms. Marvel these days (though I'm getting into Aftershock Comics' "Alters" series) I had no idea about this until now. I might have to pick up a couple copies of Iceman in the near future...

I think that this was excellent and the explanation on why him being gay isn't out of character as so many seem to think was very well thought out. I definitely have to agree myself, the reveal was...kind of forced...but I have no strong feelings one way or another as to whether that's good or bad. Ultimately though, him being gay, at least to me, is just another facet of his being, it's not like it's the only thing he has going for him, and the fact that he's an older and we'll beloved character makes it have more of an impact than if Marvel introduced a new character that was gay. All in all, great video, Bobby being gay is great and excited to see more! P.s. The intro was hilarious, smooth and awesome!

I personally don't think it works because of the fact that you can literally see comic book character's thoughts. So unless he was faking his thoughts for about 50 years, which wouldn't really make much sense, then that really doesn't make much sense in continuity. Also, the fact that they wrote him like an 80s sit-com character in his solo book didn't help.

You gave some really good points and you seem to be very open minded in this kind of topics in the comic book community, nice video overall.

I think you did a great job with this video - and I super appreciate the research you did☃️💕

From a long context the concept and idea seems good and has some ground in it, the execution however was TERRIBLE! The 1st impressions were so forced and painfull...that it pissed off people. And I think thats why "SJW" Marvel came to be. The writers did every execution horribly as possible wich soured it all. I waws fine with female thor as it was a good take and had a good starting execution. The rest was meh. But I will still hold with Stan Lee. "If you want a "gay" spiderman. Make it, but don't do it to Peter Parker." That's just my opinion. Otherwise it felt like you would know how to fix the "Bobby being gay and coming out thing" done better. Like from the start. I want to know from your angle how it would been opened then this "jean grey" doing it like this. Personally it would been nicer for Jean to go.. Bobby I noticed something. Maybe you should talk to your older self on how happy he is now. Bobby would be like: Why? And Jean looks at him saying: "I think you know why." Then go to older Bobby and have the talk and Jean saying she picked up his thought of being gay and then the whole reveal comes full circle wwith both young and old Iceman revealing they are gay and it's okay.

He could be gayer. i mean its fine.

I think the reveal would have been better if it was foreshadowed by Present Bobby when he found out that version of the Past X-Men was the first one and built up with a small sub plot about Present Bobby being conflicted on whether or not he should talk to his Past self ultimately ending an issue where Present Bobby tells Past Bobby they need to talk in private.Much like what Nick Fury whispered to Thor we won’t know what was said but as the issues go by if you pay attention to Past Bobby we would see subtle changes and later on in the volume he finally comes out.

I hope Colton Haynes sharpens his acting chops. Maybe be the new Iceman when the MCU rolls out XMen.