The one crucial thing Elan missed was that yes, infinite turnings would cause every possibility to happen eventually as long as it actually WAS possible. Since there's no beginning to the turning of the Wheel there has already been an infinite amount of turnings and the Dark One has not won so far, which means it's literally impossible for him to win at all.

The prologue to Eye of the World is still my favorite opening to an epic fantasy series to this day. Seeing the aftermath of the Light's "victory" and the consequences of that victory that reached across time to where our story begins truly is a masterful way to tell a tale.

It's ironic really - the only way a servant of the Dark One to gain true immortality is to want to die. Living and rebirth has to be seen as torture for the Dark One to actually give it to you.

His involvement in the world in the time between the Dragon's reincarnation was terrifying. He destroyed Hawkwings empire, like you said, then sent his sons across the ocean to engineer the Seanchan conflict we experience in current time with the characters. I always loved how he said it, too. "I whispered in Artur Hawkwings ear, and had Aes Sedai sent to the stake. I whispered again and sent his sons across the ocean, sealing two dooms. The doom of his dream of a land united, and a doom yet to come..." When he says that, it's portrayed as the rantings of a madmen, and it kind of is, but you also know it's true. The part about the prologue is great. Especially when you realize you've basically turned on the series in a time when Evil won, and basically doing a victory lap. You see the last dragon die, and realize his main foe is still alive in the world, filled with contempt and knowledge that he'll return. So good. But the thing that always got me was the sadness of his character. Not discounting the incredible evil he's committed on the world at all btw... It's just, he's not just a philosopher but a theologian as well. And in the Age of Legends you get your third name by being an exemplar servant providing help to people/society. What existential dread it must be to figure out the wheel turning, and understand the arguable futility of existence. Knowing that everything will just play out again and again, with no real escape. Glad you did this character.

He is one of my favorite secondary characters in the series. There is something very satisfying in the way in which Rand and Moridin oppose each other, while in the same time they both are probably the closest in their personal take on the meaningless eternal conflict they are bound to participate in Age in and Age out. Whenever they meet, in the latter books at least, their interaction are always in the line of two people walking the same road, but from the opposite direction, meeting somewhere near the middle, exchanging an observation or a jibe about the path ahead, and the place of each of them in it. I do get the feeling that as the battle between good and evil is eternal, so are Rand and Moridin the eternal frenemies, because they both need to play a counter-part to each-other, creating in this way a hauntingly beautiful melody of balance, and renewing, and endless opportunity for the whole world itself, to go forward or move backward, in order for the Wheel itself to turn into its next turn. Awesome character - he isn't even a true villain, I think, more of an antagonist, who has gone to a reasonable let's say mathematical conclusion, and does his best to align the numbers of the equation to match his desired end result. He is also probably the only Forsaken who has enough complexity in his in order to push Rand towards his brightest form, mostly because Moridin presents not only an immediate treat of magical and political power, but also a treat of existence and symbolism and philosophy, that challenges Rand to grown enough inwardly and mentally, so that he'd be able to resist the convenience of Moridin's way of thinking.

Let's examine Padan Fain! An evil separate from the dark one!

Moridin could always dream up some badass background scenery I'll tell you what. Also, he was a great natural dreamwalker which is very rare, even moreso among men. But my number one character has gotta be HOPPER!!

One thing that makes Ishamael's philosophy so intriguing is that at the time of the War of Power, he's RIGHT. Balefire exists, but not the flame of Tar Valon to counter it. Given an infinite cycle, even a slow destruction of threads would eventually lead to the complete unravelling of the Pattern. What is truly needed is for a way for new threads to be created, or perhaps previously balefired threads to be sewn back in.

Be interesting to see Lanfear in one of these.

This is made for the future and history. Keep it up and walk in the Light.

“He is a being of logic and reason that wants to serve the chaos” very well said. He’s my absolute favorite side character in the book and is one of my favorite characters in fantasy over all. Just this idea of this amazing hero figuring out the secret to “reality” and then reporting it and being denied. like how so many people in our world scoff at science they do not know or understand. Climate change, vaccines etc. That, and how Jordan wrote so much of this character off screen, like you said he’s an omnipresent influence. So good.

I'm a little over half way through the books now, and for some reason I had no idea who Ishamael was, but his name keeps popping up on the interwebs so I thought it's about time to figure it out. I remember all the scenes he was in, but I seemed to have just totally ignored who he was. I think it's because, at the time, I thought he was The Dark One just with another fancy name..

Honestly, I completely get Elan. If I found definitive proof that life is a wheel that keeps repeating, that I will be reborn exactly the same after 7 ages. That, in the grand scheme of things, nothing I do in this life matters because I'll do it again the next time the wheel has fully turned. I'd probably also seek to end this endless, meaningless loop. Which ironically is probably a part of this meaningless loop. So I fully understand his motivations, and probably would do the same if I was in his exact same shoes.

Good video dude. Ishamael is one of my favorite characters(behind Aginor). That was an interesting take on his position. Seems like a tragic character, especially what he did at the end.

Although I do not always agree with you, I enjoy your commentaries. Your analysis are thoughtful, insightful, and well supported. Thank you for sharing.

My theory is that Baalz being a forsaken was not Robert Jordan’s original plan. As wheel of time got more into power politics and culture, Baalz was a little too much of a cartoon villain to be the dark one.

It so much better to have someone analyze the characters instead of re-reading that behemoth of a series.

Ishamael was never imprisoned with the Dark One. All the other Forsaken were. That much has been made clear in the prologue to the first book. After Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions sealed the bore, thus shutting the Dark One away from the world, they all got mad due to the fact Saidin got tainted in the process. When Lews Therin got mad and killed his family Ishamael payed him a visit and healed his madness so that the Dragon would know the horror of what he has done. That means Ishamael was free and not imprisoned.

I get Ishmael. The dark one only has to win once for him to get what he wants. The light can win millions of times and still have to fight. But if the dark one wins once it doesn’t matter how many times the light wins. It’s like saying if you get 21 in black jack you can live. You might get 21 a million times but if you ever don’t get 21 you die. No take backs.

Favorite villain in the WoT. Hands down

I think one aspect that gets overlooked in his nihilistic worldview is just how egotistical he was. There's no real reason to think he's actually some kind of dark antithesis of the Dragon other than the fact that his ego places him there and that he seems to believe that he is. It's kind of a duality in being a nihilist but also wanting to be the central most important figure in the cosmic battle between good and evil.

Great analysis of a great character.

The concept of being born and reborn following a destiny over and over until the DO wins is truly hideous in my view. It is hopeless and maddening. I don’t blame Moridin for wanting true death. I would too. I also admire his style in brutal honesty. So, I’m evil now everyone... he is also tragic as he is highly intelligent but I think driven a bit mad by the knowledge it’s never ending. It doesn’t justify the fact he is cruel and purposely evil but definitely my favourite Forsaken.

Saw notification . Could not resist ! "Shine"

Great video/analysis. I read the comments and I personally find the Elan/Ishamael character much more compelling than Moridin. His madness and evil for evil's sake has so much sincerity. I enjoy the madness of Moridin in the Fisher King scene, especially his laughter, but always to me the greatest villain will be the one who invades dreams, twists spines, and believes himself in parity with the great lord of the dark.

Please do more Forsaken, to me they prob are the most interesting characters of the series!

You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your own logic destroyed you, didn't it?

Easily my favourite villain in WoT

I love the wheel of time series and I agree with what the points you made about him. Keep up the good work.

I would love to see a lore series detailing whatever is known about the other Forsaken (perhaps 2 or 3 in one video, if information is too scant for an entire video per Forsaken)

The thing I never understood about Ishamael is the sociopathic inhuman tortures he inflicts on people, I could understand just unmercifully obliterating people...I mean he would just be speeding up their individual threads inevitable doom in his mind.. As you said the horrific things he does to peopl, and the joy he gets in doing it makes no sense to me, and never has. I guess you could say the madness caused him to be that way, but I just don't buy that. It is one of the only things I dislike about the story. But it does bother me.

Ever wonder about the man that the Shadow stole the body of to put Ishamael's soul into? Really it was never Moridin's body, and it did want to live.

When I was 12(back in 1998) my mom bought me the first book. I read the prologue, had no clue what was going on, and proclaimed it the worst book ever written. A few years later(maybe 2000-2001) I wanted to read a book bad and started reading it again. I have since read the Eye of the World probably 7 or 8 times, just finishing a reread the other night, and damn- 12 year old me just wasn't ready!

I'd like to see videos about some of the other Forsaken.

This is the most sci-fi sounding fantasy I’ve ever heard.

Well done this was your best examination

The problem with Ishamael's philosophy is that it's not a real justification for his actions. If a murderer would tell you "he would eventually die anyway" you wouldn't accept it as a justification or even a logical reason. Ishamael is giving you the same "justification". The only difference is that what the murderer told you is a well known fact, while "the light will lose eventually anyway" blows your minds. Even if we take Ishmael's conclusion about eventuality as absolute truth, you are still left with the question: Why not let the light(/world/humanity) survive for as long as they can until this eventuality comes? Thousands even millions of years can pass with humans who get to live their lives. Why if you can't have that for eternity is immediate defeat preferable?

Here's a thought - Moridin/Ishy/Elan may actually be Rand/Lews Therin, the mirror, the lives that Rand's thread lived in which he turns. There's nothing explicitly stating that the same life cannot be spun out overlapping with other lives...

If anyone is confused how Rand swapped bodies with Moridin at the end, ask yourself; "Have there been any characters in WoT before that had their souls put into another body? If so, what do those characters have in common?"

Why doesn't he balefire himself if he seeks oblivion?

Great video. I like Ishmael and his character building. Billy Zayne's portrayal of him was a joke imo. I always envisioned him full of rage in that scene as he figures out Lews Therin doesn't know what he did. My favorite forsaken though is one that was completely underused in the series. Aginor. I mean, he is like a genius mad scientist who creates all the freaking shadowspawn and he gets killed first book and brought back as an often halfwitted acting Dashiva. I mean Aginor tested thousands of myrdraal to try to figure out how they traveled through shadow!! His understanding of the one power on a biological level had to be unrivaled and I will always wish more had been done with Aginor character. Maybe some special healing or destruction that only he knew or something. Anyways, great video

ishamael is actually randall flagg

You're so smart... And cute... ;) Ha in all seriousness, though, I do enjoy your insight on this series. Thank you for doing these. I liked and subscribed and all of that, finally, although I've been watching your videos for a while now. I'm going to follow you on Twitter, too. Keep it up!

Could he have been released around the time that King Laman Damodred decided to cut down the Chora Tree, in the hope of causing more chaos like he had done in previous time (Trolloc Wars, war of hundred years). He might’ve thought that it would’ve caused enough death & destruction to suit his agenda

Please review one of robin hobbs books!

That thumbnail could be kind of spoilery for someone who is just starting the series. You could have subs aren't there yet.

I don't know why but i always got the impression that he was a dragon in a previous age, Rand had that moment on Dragonmount of do i fight or just give in, Rand\lews chose to fight time after time, Ishamael didnt.

Hi. I just found your channel a few days ago. Love your wheel of Time videos. TWoT is one of my favorite epic fantasy series. Have you read Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings series? Fitz is my all time favorite character. His relationship with Nighteyes is amazing! There are four trilogies and a quartet as well as a few short stories thrown in for good measure lol. I definitely recommend it.

You should review all the books bro, you can do it before anyone else does and get a huge following. I'm talking about. All. 14 books or was it 16 books, including prequel and a massive overview of. The wheel of Time series.

Welcome new fans!

The Heart of Dark

Are you eventually gonna do all the Emond's Fielders in this series? And who's your favorite out of the supergirls?

How was he sealed in the bore (even partially) but able to taunt Lews in the prologue?

The drowning torment gives me the worst feeling... :/

Unfortunately Elan forgot to carry the one, so to speak, on his calculations. What he never accounted for in his rather gloomy analysis of the Dark One's "inevitable" ultimate victory is that if the DO were ever to win, it would be as if the Pattern never was. Therefore it can be concluded that if one were to exist at all, than at no point in the future has the DO ever won, shooting his entire premise in the foot.

So is Morden immortal till Rand kills him or was he constantly reborn? And if he was always reborn, was he reborn loyal to the Dark One?

The worst villains are geniuses

Is it possible that Ishamael was actually in the World of Dreams during the sealing, or simply not sealed away and is being repeatedly spun out in to the world similar to Birgette and the other heroes of the wheel?

Him wanting oblivion and thus joining "the Dark One" is incredibly stupid. He could have just asked someone to balefire him... For someone supposedly incredibly intelligent it seems to be a major oversight.

The body swapping at the end reminds me of Judas and Yeshua. But Robert Jordan was an actual Christian and obviously knew that. It's ironic that the true disciples are considered ultimate anathema by those who worship Shai'tan. Haha, Ba'al-zamon. I didn't even know about that when I read TWOT. So profound.

I always found Moridin to be the most compelling of the Forsaken, not really as Ishamael but in his reborn persona. Have you ever read any of Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth novels? Unfortunately my only exposure to that was the Legend of the Seeker tv show, and I've heard the books are way different. If you've read them could you review them at some point?

so basically, we're in the first age, and we got Elon Musk, but Elon in the books is Elon from the next age...DENY IT!

7:20 and yet you didn’t describe it as morbidin

Dude that thumbnail is a spoiler. I am halfway through CoS and was wondering who Moridin is. And this appeared on my recommended. I am disappointed Daniel.

Maybe the subtle message of the universe of Robert Jordan is that the real Shaitan in Randland are indeed its belligerent people and RJ's weak and dumb concept of Creator (who submit His creatures to a Wheel of uncertainty and silent disorder). The "Dark One" is a mere concept of catastrophe, but never the real agent of Evil. That's why Elan seems so "appealing": without good creatures and without a real God, why not destroy everything? 🤷 Of course this author's confusion about existence produced adorable books. But I believe it all would be simply resolved by two answers: Randland urgently needs a strong and wise Sovereign Creator God that guarantees order, goodness and eternal JOY to the Wheel, and a people that recognize that the real Dark One is not in Shayoul Ghul, but its the Evil they carry in their own hearts. Solved! ✌️

You spoke about our introduction to the wheel of time... the prologue of the eye of the world turned me off from reading the book for almost a year untill I had nothing left to read .. I still dont like it. I dont feel its a good into to the series... it falls into my hating of stories where the hero is already established ( like in the witcher) it felt like ishamael and LTT were the hero and villian ( which is true to a point) and I was like this doesnt seem like the kind of fantazy I want to read.. looking back it reminds me of one of Brandon Sandersons books I cant remember the name because it was unmemorable and dull but yeah I picked EOTW up and skipped the prologue and fell in love