Not Wizard of Oz?

@Blackbriar95 oh, okay. Fair. It's been awhile since I read the book.

@@Star1412s maybe it a time-moves-differently-here thing. I also thought they found her unconscious in a field after the storm that carried her from Oz.

@DM Animation I know. I was saying that time passes differently in Oz and no one was looking for her because of the storm.

I saw a movie where this was done well. It's a Russian/Japanese anime about some paranormal happenings during the Battle of Moscow in 1942 called Last Squad. I normally hate the "it was all a dream" trope, but in Last Squad the idea that the whole movie might be the product of a damaged imagination is introduced very early and done well. I'm sure many people would hate how it was done, but I kind of liked it.

Literally

The Book That Must Not Be Named

Totally agreed. This is usually done by authors who want to have complete control over their stories, characters and fictional universes. But as it's been proved recently, more money may change the minds of the most conservative and jealous authors.

May I offer you a cough drop, @@lil_astrid_adderal?

The curse of the cursed child

What’s the book name?

@@lukewarmmess5123 it's "The Miniaturist" by Jessie Burton

Oh damn that’s a pretty good way to build suspense! You’d just constant be wondering who will die

I’m a little bit late but I read a book with a similar deal going on, and it was SO GOOOOD. It revolved around a bunch of different stories from a bunch of different characters, and it started with one of them falling to their death, but it doesn’t say who it is. Then the stories converge at the end so you see exactly what events led up to it and UGH it was a really good book lmao I don’t remember the name of the book exactly but the premise was something about a skyscraper in the future with 1000 floors?

@@Cindyisadog The thousandth floor. I hated that book, have no idea what you'd talking about.

Assassination classroom handled this frustratingly well. To the point where it seemed the mangaka purposefully wanted to leave you unfulfilled with some characters

Oh my god, right??? A woman can have dreams of some amazing adventure or achievement, but then “life has unexpected miracles,” she gets pregnant and discovers all she wanted the whole time was a child 🙄

Ah, this comes from manga, but I have one your comment brought to mind. *_Spoilers_* for anyone interested in the *_Bleach_* manga or final season that's coming up. Besides the fact that Ichigo and Rukia didn't end up together (that was my Bleach OTP and seemed to be hinted at in all kinds of official materials; my Black Sun White Moon homies know what I'm talking about), I was upset because no one actually ended up achieving the life they wanted. Ichigo seemed like he was getting built up to live in Soul Society full-time and become a Captain of the Court Guard/Gotei and follow in his father's footsteps in that way. Instead, he took over his father's clinic. And later on, I had others point out to me how no one else did anything that aligned with their dreams as teenagers either. Orihime (who I disliked, but that's separate from this), was a girl who said she wanted to do so many things that she wished she had multiple lives so she could do them all. She didn't want a domestic life at all, and yet she ended up Ichigo's housewife. Ishida, who said he never wanted to be a doctor or take over his father's hospital did exactly that. He turned into an absolute workaholic doctor just like his father. And Chad, who made a promise to his grandfather that he would never use his strength for his own gain became a professional boxer. What on Earth happened there? In general, Bleach's writing just went downhill, starting from after the Soul Society arc (the Soul Society arc was a masterpiece on its own though), but it was really hitting rock-bottom after the Fullbring arc. It caused the cancellation of the anime, and it's speculated to have also caused the early ending of the manga. But was Tite Kubo's writing so bad he really forgot the desires of characters he had been writing for 15 years? Or was this commentary about teenagers growing up to be a lot more like their parents than they ever wanted to be? It doesn't feel that way. It's no wonder it's common speculation that Kubo intentionally flipped the switch on all of these characters after having his manga cancelled just to piss off readers. To anyone who read this far, thank you for coming to my TED talk.

What about the Sandlot and Stand by Me epilogues? There’s a couple characters that get married and have kids but there’s also a couple weird ones.

I dated a girl that I had to distract while I was driving so she wouldn’t notice a dead animal on the side of the road. That said I’m still mad when authors kill characters. I get attached to my homies lol.

@@keithshaw3272 That's sweet. I can't stand watching dead animals on roads either, it genuinely makes me sad

Just hope y'all are vegan lmao

😂 so true, I can't read a novel thats all rainbows and sparkles

Yesss me too, can’t watch any nature docos or anything

AndYouWillBeWithMe agreed

Do people actually re read books tho?

@@dhenderson319 yup, some people

@@dhenderson319 oh definitely. I have read almost all of the books on my shelf at least three times. In the last two years I've read harry potter sooooooooooo many times

I love those endings as well or when I look back I see how obvious the foreshadowing was

😂 😂 😂

Every. Single. Part... My fav character dies.... Except part 4... But he 'died' at least three times 😫

@@gravetiger9333 Pretty sure he only died twice.

@@underdrow5572 maybe.... It felt like more than that but i haven't seen it in awhile

"OOHHHH NOOOO!!!!"

You mean ch- _gets shot_

I agree- when it was planned from the beginning it works, like The Sixth Sense, or imagined relationships with people (2019 Joker), it can be so awesome!

@@Maddie-sn7yt yeah but he wasn't a figment, he was a ghost (still awesome movie tho!!)

The only book I've seen this done well in was Dream Fall

Maddie I was just about to say the sixth sense. It works so well

Me too! Glad that im not the only who wanted Harry to die 😊

Joseph Hanson yep, me too...

Ooo, I never thought that possibility but I think it would've been a nice one. Not sure if better than the real one but maybe even that.

Yep that's very much the ending I wanted too. And we so nearly got it.

I don't know because... Yes it would be really interesting, but Harry is my favourite character and i don't want him to die. Also i don't think that the fact that he came back made his sacrifice less meaningful, he still really believed he was going to die and i cry everytime i read the chapter when he goes to the forest to die even though i know he won't die but it's still so emotional... Also i think it'd be weird that the rest of the story wouldn't be told from Harry's POV after 7 books that we only saw it from Harry's eyes. I really hate the 19 years later chapter though lol.

He LOVED to kill popular characters

We did not need josstice league

@@kerodelkigh I am a leaf on the wind watch how I -

😂😂

No, they hate pain. But they love it more.

@Tiela This is what happens to me too skdnjdjd like in AOT or Stranger things

Soft disagree I'm three volumes into a story where the MC didn't follow the "heros jouney" and went to start a farm. I don't think anything real sad has happened. I think it will get a 4th read through.

@@asingleshot7 this is valid as well, although it's funny cuz I happen to be currently reading a farmer story that's the opposite

I personally like cliffhangers IF it gets resolved in the next book.

.

@@eelio8469 I personally like cliffhangers IF there is an apology note from the author in the next book.

@@eelio8469 agreed

I love cliffhanger , even without a second book. The way it tortured me is like no other.

Kind of agree. I think both are good if they're written well, and both are annoying if they rely too much on cheap tricks and coincidences. Don't write a happy ending just to please the fans. Don't write an unhappy one just to break their hearts. Write an ending that feels like it pays off and makes the story grow, whether it's happy, funny, tragic, bittersweet, twisted or surprising.

It depends on the rest of the book for me. If the book is about the characters going through something dark or dangerous, it doesn’t make sense for everything to suddenly be sunny and joyful at the end. If the story is about characters striving for a goal or finding their purpose or love, I love happy endings.

I think both are valuable and important. Imo, a great story has high *and* lows

I don't want to hear it I don't , 👊 agreed

I think a mixture of the two can work pretty well. For instance, some of the best books I've read are ones where the character goes through hardships that basically leave me sobbing my eyes out, but perseveres and eventually reaches a happy ending. It can work well if done correctly.

_you’re_ not a dish, you’re a _man_

I still cry over Zoë's death even tho I reread it 19 times now

“Bob says hello”

@@not-so-happypappypatton damn bro you really got me cryin in the club rn

The main problem i have with it is that it does not fit the themes of the story for me the story was about hope/ making the world a better place and so on and then it ended on such a depressing note while i personnaly generally prefer bittersweet ending, i dislike endings the most which contradict the themes of the story

I think the main reason people dislike the ending to Mockingjay is because so many people read it when they were young and weren’t expecting a downer ending. I was spoiled for it going in, and so I really enjoyed the ending. I think if people reread Mockingjay, they’d appreciate the ending a lot more.

In my case, if I remeber correctly (I read it a long time ago) -i didn't like it because everything felt forced and just for shock value. I like several points of that book, but, for example, I didn't care for most deads because of how they happened, and that was so weird considering how attatched I was to the characters. Those books for me were a story of a revolution, people fighting to be free, the author was very good transmiting that in the arenas but the third book feels just forced. And to top it, at the very end we don''t get how the world changed, just katniss depresingly living with peeta. I didn't like it, not because it was sad, but because it made me feel absolutely nothing (Hope I made my point clear, I'm pretty bad explaining my thoughts ^^')

I didn't like Mockingjay because it was so boring

I guess it just depends how you look at it. For some people, it was "depressing" and a "downer," but I was actually deeply touched and inspired by it, personally. I loved how it ended with the message that no matter how hurt you are, how much life can beat you down, you can pick up the pieces and rebuild. ♥ It'll never be the same as it was, and the wounds you suffered will always be there, but that doesn't mean that the life you build afterward can't be every bit as good. For people who live with trauma, it's an empowering message to know that erasing/forgetting/getting over the trauma is not the way to reach a happy ending. Accepting it, finding ways to live with it, and having the strength to find happiness DESPITE it, is what matters. The ending of Mockingjay might be bittersweet, but so is life. For me, that fit the themes of the first two books beautifully.

"A clean finish to ASoIaF/Game of Thrones would feel absurd." Well ASoIaF isn't finished but.....

yes! I love LOTR

Sorry to bring Marvel into this, but Infinity War is a great example of what you're talking about. It does not have a happy ending, but rather an inevitable one. If the Avengers had been united, then they could have had a chance, but they weren't (because of Civil War) and it cost them dearly.

@@OverlyPositiveFanboy thanks for this explanation I've been looking for a logical way to end my story on a bad note.

Unpopular opinion: I see Romeo and Juliet more as a tragic comedy than a romance

@@riverdaisy4215 it was written to display how stupid people in love are, so agree

Unpopular opinion: I hate Romeo and Juliet. Ever since I was a kid, I thought they were stupid to kill themselves, because they couldn't be together. THEY WERE TEENS! They didn't know what love really was

I thought you were talking about Wuthering Heights at first 🤭

The official title is called _The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet._ Shakespeare never actually wrote a romance.

Love Story was once the best selling book. The fad for years was called, "Kiss me, then carry me." There were thousands of imitations. Just having a romance novel end with two live characters was an impossible dream. It was not the style.

oh hi there mr gamer guy

Yes! *spoiler alert* A great example of this is Gone Girl. We get the story from Amy's perspective at first and I so fell for her narrative that even when I found out everything was crafted I still had a hard time adjusting my perspective on the story and realizing certain things were lies. Also, it served the story so well: it showed us just how paranoid and clever Amy can be and helped us understand the public and the detectives that fall for her story, because we know how convincing she sounds.

I wrote a story where the main character dies in the end and it’s kind of a twist but you can also see it coming. I kind of want it to be something where it all clicks and you look back and go “this was the only way” I don’t think it’s really a twist but it’s still cool I guess. I made sure that being dead was a happy ending for the main character though because she kind of lost purpose when the love interest was murdered so death was her happy ending.

Ug same

I think the movie, Knives Out does this trope well.

Real LIfe : Okay

*cries in Hero of Ages* "Yep, that's the stuff right there." Sniffles. Dries eyes. So good. Sniffles.

@@Hadrian1616 I mean... I did LOVE the way it ended

@@Hadrian1616 I didn't cry when I read it but like an hour after I finished the book and I looked back onto it I was crying like a baby. And God did that feel good.

@@alexandra1695 mmmmm....totally. I was huddled under warm blankets weeping and sucking my thumb for days. At the end of that coma, I sighed, "I really needed that."

I agree. I think that the last page and especially the last sentence is the most important part, that final moment in this world that you have spent so much time in is priceless and it needs to give the reader a semblance of closer, maybe it doesn’t tell us that they all lived happily ever after but it still needs to show that somehow, after all they have been through, things will work themselves out. It’s also really fun to have a parallel between the first and last sentence of the book or series, it just feels like it came full circle.

Like Iron Man?

Agreed. Thats why I liked the Poirot series better because you can always find some clues and it makes for an elevated experience.

@@mohanamukhopadhyay8110 Poirot the goat

I kinda disagree because as some into forensics I promise it makes sense and it’s more of a pay off moment. The reader is supposed to be Watson, not Sherlock, so if you do figure it with Sherlock it’s amazing, if not, that’s fine you aren’t supposed to. Of course I’m thinking of the books, Sherlock by bbc does suffer from what you said quite a bit, even changing just to twist or spite the books.

Very true

Spoiler Hero of Ages by Brando Sando! Vin and Elend dying was perfect and then having Sazed be the Hero of Ages when you thought everything pointed to Vin was awesome. Whats even more awesome is that everything is foreshadowed in the first book.

What book was this?

I would do this except I’m writing in first person so that would be kind of weird...

@@drlc6051 The Wings of a Falcon by Cynthia Voigt

Not a book, but something like this happens in Hamilton and I loved it.

Lmao I remember reading a series called Captain Underpants when I was a kid. Whenever the book was almost over and the main characters had to do something complicated the conflict would end with “and they did...” with the main characters gracefully walking away from the situation.

Pasicho at least the series is just for kids lol

I totally agree! It's one thing if the ending is a variation of "and everyone healed eventually, they rebuild, it wasn't as before but it was good", but "and they all lived happily ever after, no one was sad or suffered ever, and all was wonderful and beautiful"... just no.

5:12

Oo can you recommend some books that you've read that matches that trope?

@@ducklingugly6850 Sure, but bear in mind these are technically spoilers. I'm only going to mention the series they happen in and not the exact books: A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J Maas Folk of the Air Series by Holly Black The Remnant Chronicles by Mary E Pearson has this in there Furyborn by Claire Legrand Royal Bastards by Andrew Shvarts Cracks by Sheila Kohler - this one....is so creepy. I won't spoil, but don't trust the people telling the story. Claire of the Sea Light by Edwidge Danticat - this isn't your typical novel. It starts off with a little girl going missing and with every chapter we rewind in time a bit to see what a different character was doing and then we keep going back in time to see how things that happened in the past led up to this point and the reveals of what some characters have done is really cool. So if you like unique narrative structure, this one is cool. A Separate Peace by John Knowles

What about a plot twist where a character becomes something else in real time for the story, not a "surprise I was really ____"

@@fangsabre You're talking about a corruption arc. The only one I've read that I think was done well was Furyborn and Kingsbane by Claire Legrand

@@Ali-zn6sg interesting. I was asking because I had a sortof epiphany about what I want one of the themes of my story to be. A positive change arc juxtaposed with another characters corruption arc, ending with the corrupted character being an example of what could've happened to the other character had they not experienced a positive change based around philosophical differences as well as similarities. I dont want to go into specifics of what philosophy exactly cuz thats a whole essay on its own

What book was it? Would love to read it :)

Spoiler for JoJo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . This reminds me of JoJo part 6, where the villain Pucci resets the universe and all of humanity is supposed to be happy I guess, but while the main characters now live a better life, they lost who they once were and that really hit me hard. dunno if any jojofans watch this channel but just wanted to leave this here

@@gganbp didn't realise this was a jojo spoiler, should have mentioned. I'm still on part 1

@@annaferns1840 oh shit i'm so sorry bruh, hope you didn't read all of it, gonna edit the comment to mention it's jojo

Ooooh that’s interesting. Moral is to be careful what they wish for cos they might get it.

You mean, they see the end of the book and develop a fear of being left on the shelf?

@@Alresu you didn’t

@@Alresu stop I can’t 🥲🤣

@@anwenm they did ha

It's not that hard to do. The hooks she left that she didn't follow up on are hooks you don't notice, but there might be a few of them lying around as well. It's like a 'forced choice' magic trick, where the outcome is a given regardless of what you say. You notice the part you get shown, you don't notice the other options that got left unrevealed.

It works for that tone of story, but in a lot of other more light hearted stories with barely any romance, it doesn’t work that well.

It was just feel good. Didn’t add or take anything away. Just gave us a weird name to make fun of.

I'm not mad at the fact that it's 19 years later or that he formed a family but I was disappointed that everyone ended up with their teenage crushes. Like noone grew apart and found someone new or didn't want to have kids or realised that they were gay or fell in love with a muggle?

I actually liked the epilogue too until the last line “all was well.” That killed it for me. It was waaaaaaaay too obvious and basic and honestly just bad writing. The original last line that she took out honestly gives me chills and is so much better because it casts Harry into the realm of myth (“Ginny was the only one who could still see his scar.”)

I think the epilogue was important - or at least useful - because it allowed Harry to explicitly show he had forgiven Snape and come to understand him. It also served as an excuse to provide us with one more subtle line of philosophy - that you can be brave no matter what you are or seem - supporting the overall theme of the series (It's your choices that matter!). There was some narm in the epilogue, I admit, but I still wouldn't have cut it.

Agreed! I saw a thing once where after the main conflict was resolved a side character suddenly killed the main character who was their close friend. It made zero sense and left me so angry. It felt like the only reason this was done was to avoid a happy ending.

I think there's a fine line between "Not being afraid of killing characters" and "kill characters just cause lol"

I agree. Sometimes it works well (Rogue One does this well imo) but sometimes it doesn’t (not to spoil, but the death in the sewer from Mockingjay since their death was unnecessary and never discussed)

This is a good point. I love a well-played death, but it needs to fit the story. I’m reading this as I edit the end of my PitchWars manuscript and trying to see if I can avoid some of these bad endings....

I 100% agree. A character death should have a purpose. If I'm going to go through pain, I don't want it to be for no reason.

Best part of the entire film series honestly

The screenwriters obviously knew more about good storytelling than the book's author. The book sucked really, really _badly,_ but I still went with my wife to watch the damn movie ... and the screenwriters saved it by adding that battle.

@@pauligrossinoz yes, the book had one of the worse endings I ever read but the movie was amazing.

Me too ❤️

I'm the opposite lol. I loved mistborn, until he killed off my favorite character. I was pissed, waited several years to read another of his books. I wonder how many times Stormight archive is going to break my heart =(

I think he puts more effort into characters that will die to generate emotional impact. In a way, it’s a flaw in his writing. He may not even realize he’s doing it. One consequence of being an author who plans everything meticulously is that it’s hard to get the emotional tone right because you know where it’s going. Contrast it to authors who just write with a bare outline, where they are focused on each moment.

Slugging through Well of Ascension. Not the same without Book 1 character. 250 pages in and I’m just now getting interested in the story. I know it’s all setting up for something but I feel like the Zane character was just added to get some Mistborn showdown wish fulfillment. Can’t say for sure until I finish it.

haha that ending broke me.

To some extent, you are saying that epic fantasy is very samey. And you are right. It’s hard to be epic without that formula. The solution is to not write epic fantasy. I really like character focused fantasy where not much happens but the dialogue is really interesting. Unfortunately, there are very few authors that do that and I think that is partly because most readers demand epic fantasy.

I mean... the root of all our big epic fantasy, Lord of the Rings, has the final battle literally in the middle of the final book. And the battle is not between hero and villain (neither of them is there to battle anything). They shortened everything after the climax for the movies, but these things are still in there to some extent. And you know how endlessly people complained about the "fifty endings" of Return of the King, and how many people hate Frodo as a protagonist because he's just "a damsel in distress who whines all the time" and not a cool fighter who slays villains left and right. (And to be perfectly clear, I love the way it's done in LOTR and don't agree with those people at all, but apparently they exist).

@@baguettegott3409 I also love lord of the rings, but it got hate because of the way it ended which is my point exactly. All people want is a formulaic fighting the big bad in the final few chapters and a 30-40-60 page recap. And then when it isn't formulaic like that, people are calling it anti climactic. So, what I'm trying to say is; it's physically impossible to make everyone happy with an ending or a book in general.

@@matthewc5747 That's very true. Lord of the Rings is obviously loved by a lot of people, so you can do the non-formulaic ending and still be successful, but more *despite* the ending than *because* of it. And as you said, there's no point in trying to make everyone happy because that is just not going to happen.

It is even worse when you disagree with what happens in the future.

"19 years later: All your favourite characters are married to each other instead of meeting anyone new. They also all have children. The end."

The Harry Potter epilogue I was not a fan of, I was really not a fan of.

SAME

A graduation celebration of the double class (or whatever you want to call the combined 6th and 7th year classes where the people were allowed to come back and have proper schooling the next year) would have been so much better. Some shipping foder, what are you doing next conversations, and no forced "hey kid, I named you after the guy who was an ass to me for 6 years, but I forgive him, because he wanted to be with my mom, which *cough cough* is why the audience should love him."

Aww

title please-?

Thank you so much!

I agree that if it doesn't make sense it shouldn't be done. Never do something just to do it. But I understand that endings that include sacrifice aren't for everyone

I've been struggling to find books to read that aren't depressing, I'm writing light hearted slightly comedic love stories through different eras from the late Stuarts to current day. All the same family, each book focusing on the children of the leads of the previous book. There's dark moments, but overall it's happy, the characters all get their happy ending.

@@RegencyLady-ho2ik Try reading "The Infinites", by John Banville. I felt it was a little strange at the beginning, but it's funny and it isn't a ending with consequences. You could also try "Everything Matters" by Ron Currie Jr., it has some drama, but it's a very touching story and the end is quite satisfactory.

Sunarlyn Hissena +

I like bitter Sweet endings. One that make sense but isn't 'Everyone is Happy ever after. ' Put it's also isn't 'everyone one dies and the world is dull. '

I LOVED THAT. It felt like a beginning to the end of the story!! slsksks

I love the end of the Giver. It makes me happy even though it's super ambiguous

Some people like to watch the world burn. I am not those people.

ikr like i get attached to the characters and it hurts if they die

@@trparnell87 As someone who is not one of those people...and likes bittersweet/earned endings. People by and large fail at endings. Or put another way [happy ending that aren't written well often] Just having a happy ending does not make it a good ending. Further, as much as people want escapism, I think life is hard for a lot of people, which people want to see? Some...anyway? It feels largely, a nuanced thing ,then...just saying people want to watch the world burn - wanting something that persists and lingers inside. As a writer the reason I am writer, one of them, anyway, is because of poor endings. For instance how many people practice writing endings? Let alone want to see the ending to their story that they wrote for years and years? People who arent even writers...have a hard time letting go. Aka, the sunken cost fallacy. Perhaps if folks i.e writers wrote better happy endings people who may otherwise dislike [read me and others] could like it?

I think what everyone wants is an EARNED ending. Having a complete cast after a great war doesnt feel earned so i guess that is why people wants some to die.

what if you write nonfiction, can you still kill your characters?

@@DeeSnow97 i mean... i guess?

@@DeeSnow97 if you write one about JFK or Joan of Arch you can. I guess?

Disney be like: "No one's ever really gone..."

This deserves a hundred more likes. “Happy ending at a cost” valid!!!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

No apostrophe in: "Lets". I assume that autoincorrect (sic) did that to you.

@@markhoulsby359 They also said 'inspiring' not 'aspiring'

@@rubyj9347 True, and they could have meant that, sincerely, regardless of whether or not it's accurate. Which is why I let it go. You may well be correct, however, in which case...good catch.

I strongly agree. But I think that’s because the entire story is based on time travel. And there’s an option where you maybe don’t get to reverse time and it goes on. So yeah.

I personally didn’t think like it. It made it so that all of the choices the player made throughout the entire game basically didn’t matter. The only choice that actually mattered and affected any outcome was the last one. What was the point of giving me any choices at all if none of them affect the true ending? 😭

lmao i definitely chose chloe over arcadia bay though 😂

MC YT Can I ask why? Chloe was really unlikeable to me, and she was willing to die for a greater cause. I just don’t see the good in choosing one girl over an entire town of innocent people 😬

MC YT So, you’d rather have everyone else in the town die than let Max, who is only one person, deal with trauma? To me, that doesn’t make sense. Anyway, I think the game was trying to tell us that Max shouldn’t have used her powers in the first place; why else would the storm be coming if she didn’t use them? Why else would Chloe die over and over only to have Max save her over and over? It’s because she was meant to die in the bathroom, and Max shouldn’t have changed that. Besides, the payoff isn’t satisfying regardless of what ending you choose. The only two possible endings are either undoing everything so no one grows as characters, or killing everyone in the town and leaving every other plot thread unresolved. In the ending where you save Chloe and let everyone else die, absolutely nothing is resolved: Chloe’s family dynamic, Kate’s depression, Rachel’s death, the crimes of Nathan and Mr. Jefferson, etc. It’s such a lazy way to wrap things up, in my opinion.

Elina Mauno I’m showing my age but there was an American TV show called Dallas that did this with one of the main characters. He went thru all this drama and was murdered. Then at the end of the season, his wife wakes up and he’s in the shower. She dreamed the whole thing! I was so irritated by it, I never watched another episode. I hate that type of thing.

It's more of a tv/movie trope. But it's still gets on my nerve almost every time. I rarely see it done well.

@@kazghost yeah I've seen it in shows, but when it's done right it can be awesome ❤

@@lindaschwab8873 I've heard of that show - have to admit, not old enough to have watched it :'D But that would've pissed me off so hard too

@@kazghost Yeah, I think that must be it... I can remember seeing some tv episodes with that sort of thing, and it's easier to do that I suppose than write like a 5 book series with over a 1000 pages and be like "well, it didn't actually happen"

Thank you so much! I hope you love what you pick up!

Time travel is just one of those concepts that's so hard to execute properly. It's almost impossible to not leave options for even more time travel, to not have a story that has more plot holes than plot to begin with, to the point that the choices with using the time machine feels forced, out of character, just leaving a feeling of "the writer wanted this so that's how it happened". It's kind of like soft magic, but even more dangerous for problem solving.

@Blackbriar95 It's simple, actually. The more powerful a plot device is, the less limitations it has, the more struggle it takes out of the story. Characters don't need to work as hard, or if they had, their efforts are rendered meaningless, because a deus ex machina like mechanism just magically solved the problem. It's the same thing with soft magics. They're awesome for creating a sense of wonder, for building a world, and for _creating_ conflicts, but if you solve problems with "and then the wise old wizard cast a spell that erased evil from everyone" it's just horribly unsatisfying and is barely a story. With magic, it's quite clear that even if it's soft magic, the better stories still establish rules for one or very few specific usages of the magic, rules that aren't deus ex machina themselves, and then use those, and nothing else, creatively to solve conflict. The problem with time travel is it's just incredibly hard to put proper limitations on it. It's inherently soft magic, but it's actually worse than most soft magics, in that if you try to establish those limited uses that can resolve conflict (in a satisfying way) you start running into problems really soon. I'm not saying it's impossible to do well, just that it takes a lot of skill, a lot of effort, and it's generally just replaced with handwavium instead.

@Blackbriar95 Yes it is, but if they didn't earn it, it's not really a good romance novel. Referring to "that time travel thing", it's like if you wrote a romance novel where one of the characters betrays the other repeatedly, then they fight, they part, mad at each other, and the next day just wake up and they're together again. Like, at that point, what did their struggles even matter? In this case, it's character choices that erase the consequences, not time traveling space magic, but the effect is the same. Consequences don't end up mattering, and you just told the reader what you read was all pointless because they're together and in love again. Even if it's a romance novel, it just doesn't work. This works the same for time travel. It's not about what the setting of the story is, what devices it uses, it's about how it uses them. But time manipulation, especially backwards time travel is a lot harder to use than most plot devices. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, most writers just end up using it poorly. That's not to say it's impossible, Groundhog Day does time travel extremely well for example. Yes, it's a very limited kind, but that's exactly why it works, why it can become a device that the main character ends up actually utilizing. It creates conflict, but it also solves it, and you walk away feeling the character has earned the solution. As for Doctor Who, can't speak for it, haven't seen it yet. But just because it's topic is time travel doesn't mean its use of time travel must be satisfying and well-written. It doesn't have to be wrong either, as with many other aspects, it depends on the writing.

If you wanna watch time travel done well you need to watch Dark on netflix

Kevin K. So...Avengers Endgame?

doesn’t everyone die in shakespeare anyway tho?

@@nont18411 You’ve watched Endgame? Can we agree their version of time travel is the best version that exists?

Not only are SJM’s ships forced, they’re also toxic.

I'm curious if Jace is the most hated character male character in the mortal instruments. What about Sarah J Mass? Did she make incessant characters and forced romances

Ali Omar She forces just about every character into a relationship whether they have chemistry or not, and they’re also almost all ‘soulmates’ 😂

Ali Omar she also built up the best friend just to kill her with very little consequences. Hehehe!

@@amandaofhouserobinson6707 oh my God how much I hated that. Nehemia's death had basically no consequences. Such Celaena being a bitch and whiny from time to time