When reading the books, I always saw Denathor as just tired. Tried of being without a Queen. Tired of losing loved ones. Tired of being the only one fighting Sauron’s/Mordor’s armies. Tired of holding out while waiting for the inevitable defeat. The films did him dirty.

Fair play, if Denethor hadn't done so well defending Gondor for so many years there wouldn't have been much left for Rohan and Aragorn to save.

I’m surprised that you didn’t mention how he was able to go toe-to-toe in a battle of wills with Sauron through the Palantir, something that Saruman couldn’t do. Might be his most impressive single feat in my opinion.

You hit the nail on the head with this one! Denethor's analysis of the situation is completely correct: here is no hope of ever defeating Sauron in battle. And yet he persists, with all the might and all the wisdom granted to him, facing the Enemy with cold, hopeless resolution. His greatest flaw, as I see it, is his lack of trust in providence. And when he finally snaps, he only reaches a logical conclusion: in the face of inevitable destruction, you might as well die on your own terms. It's a purely cold, rational reaction to absolute despair. It's also a great contrast to the Rohirrim's "northen courage". When Éomer sees the Black Ships, he readies his men for a final stand. He, like Denethor, has no reason to hope to survive, let alone win; yet he decides to fight head on, defying the powers that will inevitably crush him in the end. He faces absolute despair with a kind of mad courage that, in the end, gives way to hope beyond all guessing, as chance (or providence) turns in their favor against all odds.

He had a "shout out" from Boromir in the first movie, while chastising the council he said his father held back mordor's forces while their (everyone else's) lands were kept safe

Consider this; Communing with Sauron through the palantir turned Saruman evil; It didn't for Denethor .

Thank you for doing this video. Denethor matched his will against Sauron's for decades in a way even Saruman failed to do directly. This is one area Jackson really dropped the ball in the films as in the books, Denethor being so strong and competent REALLY makes his final collapse all the harder hitting because it showed just how very bleak the situation truly was.

He actually reminds me quite a bit of Brandir the Lame from the Children of Húrin. A reasonable leader outshone among his own people by an outsider of superior valor, though the manners of their deaths differ quite a bit.

8:30 can we all take a moment to pity the poor person who had to tell Denathor stuff that he already knew he must have been thinking at some point "Why am i here?" and must have been over joyed to suprise Denathor with new information.

Denethor relies on "Amdir" but not "Estel". The difference between Denethor and Gandalf or Theoden is the most important part of the Lord of the Rings, at least in my opinion. Unlike Denethor, Gandalf has trust in Frodo's mission and the "fool's hope". Having said that, Denethor's backstory is fascinating. His relationship with Ecthelion, Thorongil, Gandalf, Finduilas, Boromir and Faramir is complicated - making him one of my favorite (maybe even my absolute favourite) character of Tolkien's universe.

To me, Denethor is Tolkien's take on the classic tragic hero in literature. He was once a great and noble ruler, but through his tragic flaw, his pride and arrogance, he wrongfully believed he was strong enough to wield the palantir without falling prey to Sauron's manipulations. Through Sauron's machinations, his bravery and wisdom turned to madness and despair.

Denethor is affectively the shield of gondor, who through his defensive tactical strategy, intelligence gathering through the planatir and stubborn defence of their border under his leadership. Kept Gondor in the game until the end phase and allow for Aragorn coming in as the avenging sword of gondor tolead coalition of the west to victory cannot be underestimated or ignored.

In some respects, I can understand the treatment he got. It's difficult to carve him out as a character on the limited time available in a movie. Flanderisation can occur on that basis, but there are times when they took it too far. Not lighting the beacons was stupid and out of character (even if they did link it to his envy towards Aragorn) and I never thought the suicidal charge made any sense. (Why would you even send cavalry to take back a city anyway?) The worst part to me is that because this replaces another scene, I never got to see Swan Knights in action. Speaking of characters done dirty, Imrahil wasn't in the movie at all and his city was never mentioned.

People say Pippin's purpose was to distract Sauron but I also think it was to not let Denethor kill his own son, for all the good he did, and all the good Faramir would do. Also at least for some Denethor inspired love or respect. In the battle some soldiers come tell him that they would like him to lead them in battle instead of Gandalf.

Denethor kept his shit together and did all he could to push back the calamity. He also duelled with Sauron's mind on the palantir for quite possibly years, and considering that Gandalf was very fearful of using a palantir, it shows that Denethor was made of strong stuff- perhaps he was more Numenorian than most but in a good way.

Denethor definitely suffered the most in Jackson's adaptation. Give the man his table manners, if nothing else! I like how he's depicted in LOTRO, especially the mention he gets at the Great Wedding.

Your ending advice is always the best

Perhaps the most interesting fact about Denethor was that, despite constantly being in contact with Denethor through the Palantir, Sauron was never able to dominate him. The most Sauron could do was wear him down psychologically into depression. Denethor is likely the strongest willed mortal character in all of Tolkien’s LOTR universe.

Nicely done. The older I get and more I think about it, my view of Denathor is that of a tragic character, one with whom I sympathize, because of all he suffered and faced in life. That doesn’t excuse his final actions, but they do feel very human and understandable. And yes, I don’t think he could have lived under Aragorn’s rule and would have exiled or killed himself once it inevitably came to pass.

Excellent video. I haven't read the LotR books since I was a teenager but I should reread them soon. I think the way Denethor was treated in the films is kinda similar to how the Game of Thrones show treated Stannis Baratheon. To be clear, Stannis is not a nice guy. In fact, he's super unpleasant and has some really strange, rigid beliefs. However, the show tended to brush over or omit the scenes from the books that gave me a degree of respect for Stannis. For example, when Davos is brought out of the dungeon after attempting to kill Melisandre he's taken to a meeting where one of Stannis' nobles proposes some insane, cruel revenge mission against civilians. Davos, knowing full well that saying the wrong thing might cost him his life, still outright says how batshit insane that is. Stannis asks everyone else to leave the room and says something like: "Davos! You are absolutely right and that's why I need you!". In both cases, I think the adaptations took more or less morally complicated characters and made them a lot worse than they needed to be.

Denethor, Boromir and Smeagol, the most tragic characters.

I really didn't like the way Peter Jackson wrote Denethor. He's a good leader (even if he's not beloved by people, but he's respected) a good ruler and a good strategist. For exemple, I don't know why Jackson didn't show the Lords of Gondor rallying Minas Tirith with their troops, or why he filled the city to the brim with ladies, old people and toddlers, even if it was for the "oh god the orcs are going to kill these poor people!"... In the novel, there are only soldiers, a few civilian healers and a few young boys working as messengers for the army... In the movie, he was shown as some crazy villain, whose hobbys were : eating tomatoes and harassing Faramir. Now when you speak about that character with people, they usually say "He was a villain ! I'm glad he died".

Finally! Some wise man to recognize Denethor

In a way, Denethor had far more mental fortitude than Saruman, who was a Maiar. Denethor was a mere man, and yet he communicated with Sauron with years without breaking or falling to darkness.

I am a simple Girl; I see the words "Denethor II" and "Hero" in a thumbnail, I click.

Tolkien's ability to render life upon a lifeless group of words is astonishing to this day. So many alive or dead could be cast in Denethor's shoes. He's also in theme with Tolkien's no 100% evil "rule", but somewhat in reverse. His good actions are in balance with his mistakes, which have bad outcomes. And because he had to bear the weight of rule, in Stewardship, his inferior qualities were given more power over him. A man like him would've been better suited as a powerful adviser to a more direct approach person, on the condition that his words be listened. Just my 2 cents, i feel like it was the weight of Gondor's living that crushed Denethor and pushed him off the right track.

My favorite denethor meme is Faramir telling him he got a Tau army and denethor responds that Boromir would have chosen imperial guard 😂

Denethor is the ruler Gondor needed in its greatest time of strife. Truly, a leader bred for wartime, though perhaps not a good leader during peace. A hero who might be unsung, yet a hero nevetheless

I can literally relate to being a single father of two sons, having the weight of responsibility on ones shoulders, and my mind knows madness.. I am not the best father either.. so i can relate.. Not every Hero is Loved nor liked! Yet unsung heroes none the less!

Justice for Denethor, son of Ecthelion!! 🙌

I’m glad you finally figured out exactly what you wanted to say and how to say it. I feel you did so brilliantly. And, most importantly, I feel your description of Denethor II to be far more balanced than most videos referencing him. Thank you for the fine work here and in the many videos you have made. Best, JTI

I, for one, was furious with the way PJ mischaracterized Denethor in the film trilogy, not only because it sabotaged the audience's perceptions of Denethor but because it made a complete mockery of Jackson's already bad excuse for sabotaging Faramir's character in the second movie (namely that he wanted Faramir "to have a character growth arc"). Then again, I was already in my early 20s and I had been reading and rereading the books for almost 3/4 of my life up to that point. As for what broke Denethor, the seemingly mortal injury to Faramir was only half of it. His last look into the Palantir would have coincided timewise with Frodo being a prisoner in the tower of Cirith Ungol. It's probable that Denethor would have seen this in the Palantir and naturally assumed, like Frodo himself did at the time, that Frodo's capture meant that the Enemy had recaptured the Ring and that all was lost.

Not forgotten by all as a fallen hero. Standing will to will so long with Sauron, suffering only a partial poisoning of his mind, when even an Istari falls is astounding, on a level with Hurin resisting Morgoth’s eyes. He did fail in a duty that was part the raison d'être of his office, by resisting the Return of the King.

Denethor needed this video as he was decent and nothing like the film portrayed him out to be.

Denethor is the most underrated caracter in the legendarium along Fingon and Caranthir.

Video idea: What are the "devices" of Saruman? We have glimpses of crafting (engineering?) skill of Saruman in The Two Towers... but I've always been interested about the assault on Dol Guldur by the White Council. How did that go down? Did they raise an army? was it a commando mission by the elven ring-bearers? But most of all is the Gandalf reference to their winning the day owing to the "devices of Saruman." One thing I like about these video series is the freedom and depth to which you speculate and ideate around how things might have turned out. Would love to hear speculations on what the "devices" actually are and how they turned the tide on Dol Guldur. I know it's widely understood Sauron feigned a withdrawal from Dol Guldur in the face of the assault but maybe it was only half-voluntary? I have a hard time believing he'd gladly abandon the proximity to the last known location of the ring.

Great video, really well put together, very interesting topic and very well explained - many thanks again

I just wish that Denethor could have shown Faramir some real love before he died. Whether it's book or film, Denethor will never be a favourite but Faramir I have had a soft spot for ever since my first reading 45 years ago. I guess becoming Prince of Ithilien, retaining the Stewardship of Gondor and getting to marry Eówyn will have to suffice. ❤❤❤

Reading many of these comments, I agree: Denethor is a tragic figure handled poorly by the films and worthy of a kind of sober respect. I feel like Gandalf actually offers that in moments in the books and regrets being in opposition with him. I'm reminded very much of the character Salieri in "Amadeus" by Peter Schaffer. There, Salieri is composer of just enough genius to recognize the greatness of Mozart and know--beyond a shadow of a doubt--that he will never match it and be generally un-regarded by history. Compare with Denethor. He is a steward, already in the shadow of greater kings. He is defending a diminished nation of peoples fighting to hold on to things they barely remember and monuments that they can no longer match. Then he is confronted with Thorongil, who steals his father's and his people's affection... like Salieri to Mozart, I imagine that Denethor saw not just a threat to his rule but recognized a greater man. And ultimately, he is left with a lesser son, who had within him to grant his father the one thing: greatness to match those around him and the kings of old. And squandered it. Envy and pride are much sharper when coupled with actual skill and greatness. That's when it cuts most of all, I imagine.

I never saw him as evil in the films. Just someone who was lost. Only seeing what what had happen to himself at the very end.

A lot of great videos and this one is one of your best. There are a lot of Tolkien channels out there. Some good, some bad, some okay but I think yours is the best and most interesting. Keep doing what you are doing.

This is a really excellent and sympathetic analysis. Great work.

The thing with him being scared that Aragorn, Gandalf and the elves wanted to usurp him, is that he was right. I dont have any direct evidence for Gandalf other than his close relationships with Elrond and Aragorn but the latter two are pretty clear. Elrond personally raised every heir to Isildur even after the line of kings ended in Gondor. Specifically with Aragorn, he claimed Aragorn could only marry his daughter if he became king of Gondor and Arnor and he gave him Anduril reforged from Narsil which was Elendil's sword. Aragorn himself clearly really wanted to be king and went around claiming to be the true king, sometimes at quite inappriate moments (like in Edoras).

Denethor is a Tragic Hero in the same manner as those from Ancient Greek & Roman Epics.

If Jackson had made a prelude-clip about Denethor at the beginning of the Fellowship movie, like he did for the Last Alliance, I think more non-readers would LOVE Denethor's character. I personally feel much empathy and respect for Tolkien's Denethor. Then again, I reread the Books every year - so as I age I comprehend his character and dillemmas better. :)

Good advice at the end there!👍

Denethor did so many things right but sadly they are overshadowed by how badly things went at the end. It was his pride that undid him. He thought he could contend with Sauron and he did extraordinarily well but in the end Sauron was able to bring him to despair. It was also his pride that led him to reject Gandalf's counsel and to refuse that Aragorn was indeed the man who should set on the throne. Much death and destruction was averted by Denethor's earlier actions but even more could have been averted. As far as the movies go, Denethor, like almost all the characters with significant roles, is a lesser character than in the books. I think some of the flaws introduced into movie Faramir are a consequence of the changes made to Denethor.

Great video!!

Fair assessment. Thanks for this

Glad to see some Denethor, always liked the poor sod quite a lot, Peter Jackson dealt him an awful hand

Seeing this movie and character the first several times I was liking the way he did the part. Then I watched Fringe and now I just see the whole thing differently. Basically I'm more impressed than ever with the actors range. Now in regards to your video.. I'd say the book would almost seem to have him as maybe not a hero but definitely not the clod he was in the show.

There was no hope for Gondor, until Isildur’s Bane had been revealed, and destroyed.

I don't hate the Jackson films, but the portrayal of Denethor actually is a huge problem I have with them. In the book, even if you don't know his backstory, it's understandable that he's bitter and distrustful, and he actually does the best job he can defending Gondor. He's a completely different character in the movie, like Theoden, but even worse.

Maybe I’m being too generous, but it seemed to me that Denethor’s film depiction was a result of the difficulty in translating the nuances of his character to the screen, rather than deliberate character assassination like with Stannis Baratheon in “Game of Thrones.”

Denethor, Boromir, Galadriel, Gollum, Frodo, the Numenorians, and the Rohirrim are all morally gray at various times but people don't pay attention and actually read

Thank you for this! It has always been a point of annoyance for me how much of a buffoon Denethor was made out to be in the films. I didn't really notice until the films (I had read the books decades previously) but there are no really healthy and productive father/son relationships for any of the main protagonists, only foster or substitute fathers. Consider: Bilbo and Frodo, Aragorn and Elrond, Eowyn and Eomer and Theoden (Gloin and the Gaffer notwithstanding!). I think Peter Jackson et al just turned this up to 11 and focused all the hate on Denethor.

Important deeper perspective particularly for film only fans.

denethor when the ranger with an elf-crush tries to usurp him 🤴🏻

I always thought Faramir got done so dirty, but his dad may have been done worse.

Catherine the artist is awesome.

Thankyou everytime i watch this part im like damn he just ran 300yds fully ingulfed in flame! 🔥 😂

Oops, I missed this! Apparently my subscription wasn't bell-ridden. I love this video: Denethor is an antihero, morally gray, sure, but heroic.

It does suck when you do your best but the universe seems to conspire against you and make you seem foolish, incompetent or just plain unworthy... You arent but only Eru knows

So basically Denathor is like the Winston Churchill of LOTR, The Right man to lead a Country in Crisis but the worst one to lead it in a time of peace that and people tend to remember him today less for his achievements and more for his faults and his incompetent choices. (Its just that Churchill had the complete opposite problem of Denathor, Denathor is a broken man who was competent at what he does but fails to see it through to succcess while Churchill is stuburn to a fault who pushes anything he says even when its the wrong choice.)

The only good thing regarding Denethor in the movie is the casting, as all the other casting are just as spot on, Denethor is as well. That is almost the only good part of Denethor in the movie. To me that is also the main major flaw in the Trilogy. Such a missed opportunity to not show in his tower room peering into his Palantir. It would heighten the tension so much more. Bring more weight to Sauron, the danger of the Palantir, why Denethor is eho he is. But slso to the confrontation between Aragorn and Sauron through the Palantir as Aragorn was pure and strong willed enough to divert his gaze to where he wanted to see instead of being showed what Sauron wanted him to see... If even Such a strong man as Denethor couldn't ...

Two things 1. The idea that Tolkiens works are not more Grey than even Game of Thrones (I highly feel that GOT in many ways is more black and white than LOTR) 2. I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at Denathors death, it’s very clearly framed as a tragic fall and in some ways it’s a way for Denathor to fully feel the repercussions of his actions as a father to Faramir.

You’re doing Illúvatar’s work with these videos.

The films did him dirty and Faramir in Two Towers also. But from a filmmaking point of view, I get it. Don't like it, but understand it.

leading gondor at weakest and has sauron the darklord as neighbor but manage to hold them back for decade. We only when he most tired and nearly break.

Denethor "knew the movements of the Fellowship"? 8:35 Were does it says this in the book - or that Denethor even knew that the Fellowship existed?

Great points on Denethor. Well thought out. He may not be the nicest person in Gondor, but he's certainly not the incompetent idiot from the films. Also, the subtitles on this vid are crazy! Apparently 'dinosaur's tactical decisions were fine, when pharamir reports to ministerif, denethor sends him back to Australia'... who the heck are these characters? And Australia? lol! 🤣

Algormancy!

I myself am all for humans and their power, so the notion of Denethor challenging Sauron over the Palantír always appealed to me. As the time left until the end of the video was running out, I wondered how will you execute the joke. You disappointed me this time.

Did his best but gave in to his despair and pride

Tolkien created a very complex and multilayered character in Denethor II, and he was very badly served by Peter Jackson.

To me it is fascinating that the stewards of Gondor ruled for 25! generations without making themselves kings. Now that is some conservative mindset! 💪

Can u do a middle earth mysteries video for the Nazgul?

"Gandalf the Morally Grey"

A question - had Denethor survived, and continued to refuse Aragorn's claim to the crown, what would Aragorn himself do? Would he Acquiesce, or would he try to take the Kingship by force?

Denethor’s biggest issue was excessive pride. For example, he looked into the palantir and got pwned by Sauron’s lies. Of course Saruman had the same thing happen.

Denathor's suicide is a cowardly and selfish act. He should have channeled his pain into courage and fearlessness. He abandoned all the women and children to face the end alone.

Thanks for this. I never liked Jackson's depiction of Denathor, (or Gimli and Elrond for that matter.)

Prefer Theoden of Rohan, master horseman, the lesser of greater sires. 😂

TBH I really disliked how cartoonishly evil/gross/weird the movies made Denethor. It feels childish and out-of-place in a movie that otherwise respects the intelligence of its audience, worse, the plot doesn't require it, if anything it is the worse off for putting a deranged idiot in charge and having everyone else (except for Gandalf and Pippin) ignore the problem. I very much would have preferred a more book-accurate depiction, and in hindsight I think we can view the depiction of Denethor as a prelude to the absolute caricatures of characters we saw in the Hobbit trilogy, notably the Master of Lake-town and his gross little henchman.

Hot take: I wouldn’t say Sauron is the stereotypical evil “i just want everything to burn” character. I think he, and many of Tolkien’s villains are more nuanced than that, largely because they are based on our own history and mythology. Sauron doesn’t do the things he does because he is a sadist, he does them because he desires perfect order, and the only means he sees to achieve that end is domination and enforcing his will through brute force. It’s a twisted idea of order and harmony, his aims aren’t evil but the methods by which he pursues them most certainly are.

Can you do a video on if orcs joined the last alliance

In his beginning Denethor was a good, hard-working steward, and an honest, well intentioned man of Gondor, but he was no hero. When it came down to the crunch, rather than join his soldiers in battle for the final showdown, he chose to kill himself (and attempted to murder his son into the bargain as well). Suicide is not an act of heroism - its an act of cowardice, weakness, laziness, and surrender to despair. Furthermore, I would point out that Denny's counterpart in Rohan, Theoden, had also recently seen his country torn apart by enemies, lost a wife, and lost a son but he didn't kill himself - he manned up, took the initiative, got on his horse, picked up his sword, and kicked orc & uruk ass. That's what a hero does.

Denethor actually does send Faramir out to protect the outlying ruins of Osgiliath in the books. Which is also a suicide mission.

I don't like the way Gondor in general was portrayed by the films

Another blow for Denethor was that Aragorn always advised not to trust Saruman, but welcome Gandalf, but Denethor preferred Saruman, yet in the end, Aragorn's warnings proved to be well grounded! Denethor was proven wrong to trust Saruman! Even if Gandalf was plotting to replace Denethor with Aragorn, which he was, Gandalf still cared for Gondor, but Saruman wanted it destroyed! So, why did Denethor kill himself and try to kill Faramir? Well, he didn't want to see Gondor fall, even if Gondor survived, he would not give up the rule of Gondor to Aragorn, and even if he did not, he knew Faramir would, and he didn't want that. He had lost his wife and eldest son, his remaining son had a burning fever, Sauron's forces outnumbered Gondor's, Rohan was not coming to help Gondor and the Black Ships of Umbar were coming to attack and Sauron had finally snapped Denethor's will and Denethor could not see any reason to live and why should Faramir live just to die when Minas Tirith falls? I think many would have thought and tried to do the same in his position. We have weapons Denethor could not even dream of, but even in WW2 the Japanese preferred death to capture. So, was Denethor a madman? I think not. He just couldn't see any way to win or reason to live or let his son be tortured until he broke and the House of Stewards come to such a painful and shameful end.

The reason I still dislike Denethor despite all this is purely because of his distain towards Faramir. Faramir makes one mistake in losing Osgiliath and he was never able to redeem himself. He's his son, he should be forgiving always, nobody is perfect. He was cruel and he knew it. He thought it was justified but in reality it caused more problems than it prevented. Denethor was a good Steward, but a terrible father which affected his ability to effectively run the realm. That is why I dislike him. However, he's a top tier athlete clearly, gold medal in the burning 100M sprint.

Ruined the third movie; such a horrible treatment of him.

i imagine peter jackson would've been like "mmh how do i make this complex and tortured character a compelling presence in my movie? I know! I'll make him eat tomatoes sloppily before suddenly going mad!"