Thank you. And yeah I feel like looks wise the O78s is better, and I think they did play it a little safer not letting the RPM go down too low, which I think is smart in some ways. And since I don’t like bellows and don’t find the plasma that useful it’s not a selling point for me generally. But the hard issue for the 078s is burr options. They use a very rare diameter, and because it has two screw holes it’s very different and keeps you only on their burr sets.

​@@Sprometheus I agree on the burrs. As someone how finds the stock burrs not entirely to my personal preference and a basically no options to swap out to, I find it sitting here doing very little for an otherwise solid grinder with a very nice workflow.

Design wise the DF83(v, or even the old one maybe) seems better. And I backed the 078s :'( SSP should be making burrs for the 078s eventually. I think the Stock burrs are supposed to be decent but you may need to do seasoning.

I got my 078s after backing it on indiegogo with shipping to Europe and it was simply an incredible deal. Hard to beat even for a plasma generator or slightly bigger and more “standard” size burrs.

Thank you my friend, you as well!

P64 is more quiet, better build quality I'd think, not that DF83 is bad. I think it comes down to which burrs you like better. I hear the SSP MP and HU burrs with similar geometry in 83 and 64 are basically the same, although I'd think the Lab Sweet / Cast type burrs might be better in the larger size since that's what they were originally designed with (80mm).

Using the stock espresso burrs?

@@BensCoffeeRants yeah dlc for espresso and dlc brew for pour overs

I think you’re right, but I also think the Niche really ushered in the popularity of the single dose grinder. And i often speculate that the original DF64 was developed to fill the gap that the niche couldn’t where they were so hot you couldn’t buy one, plus flat burrs. It’s all history now though.

@@Sprometheus amen!

@@Sprometheus niche was one of the big breakthroughs in offering a customer a high performance/dollar product. Ningbo Frigga has a competitive advantage where they currently can access pretty good manufacturing for a lower cost and faster turnover of designs where they can make higher-end products that still offer a great performance/dollar product and I think that's a very strong selling point in a hobby where most of us will never end up with $5k+ in equipment. To be able to get a pretty well built variable RPM 83mm grinder with SSP burrs for under the price of the lagom p64 goes to show how fast the market is moving. even the timemore 064s which was conceived over 2 years ago was supposed to be today's "hero" grinder at $450 but the DF64 gen 2 is here at $50 cheaper ($100 cheaper if you get an open box one at espresso outlet for the people who would really benefit from those savings) and has been really shining as today's "new niche" in the value proposition it brings to the market, and who knows how much improved the df64 gen 3 is going to be or what ningbo frigga is going to put out next? I think grinder manufactureres on the whole are going to try and pretend the DF grinders dont really exist since they're pushing the value propsoition a little too hard, which I understand isn't always objectively a good thing because there may be a small grinder maker with new ideas who just wont be able to match the performance/price value that the DF has, and that can stifle new ideas. on the flip side, maybe small grinder makers are going to be a lot smarter in their future designs if they want to compete with good quality, low price, standard size flat burr grinders from china. Something I'd like to see grinder makers do is control RPM through a gearbox rather than lowering the voltage to the motor, that will always casue stalling issues instrinsically. I think a grinder should have a high/low speed gearbox to keep torque up at low rpm, like how a drill press can change its speeds by adjusting pulley ratios

I’d be onboard for that.

According to the other reviews, the DLC expresso is very close to SSP high uniformity, which makes a lot of sense since the teeth of the burrs resemble one another.

DLC burrs should be better, probably a bit higher clarity, I never used them, but you know what the Italmill burrs were low clarity / high body at first and I found they opened up with more clarity after a bit of use, so it changed with some seasoning! Also opening up the declumper on the original DF83 and SLOW FEEDING the beans make a huge difference if your looking for more flavour clarity.

Actually the 064s did, I have yet to try the 078s. And I do think that would be the closest competition for this grinder. And the 078s burrs are very different than the 064s so I can’t say they would be all that similar taste wise. But I think one major thing that the 83v may have going for it over the 078s is availability. At least in the near future. I will say the other main thing I like for the 83v over the 078 is common burr size and ability to swap. So even if you were to not like the brew burrs you aren’t stuck with few options when you want to switch. Anyway, I hope to get a 078s at some point. Timemore did say they would but I think they’ve had a slow roll out for buyers and I don’t want to press and take one that could be going to a buying customer. But thanks for the thoughtful comment and kind words.

Thank you for the correction. I really wished Timemore set a 78s aside for you. They could benefit from your review and the coffee community would benefit from your vast experience and knowledge of products. I'm not sold on the 83v yet, so I really like it in theory. I just like the features of the 83V, the plasma generator, magnetic chute, RPM range, common burr size. Even the aesthetics of the body is growing on me, at least from the front. I think you're the only DF83v video so far that didn't leave a super positive impression and more so a neutral review. I appreciate that.

Would also like to try the 83v against the 078s if I manage to get my hands on one. It would be interesting for sure.

That’s definitely possible. But with inflation the term “budget” appears to be widening every year, and with every new grinder release.

@@Sprometheus too true

At some point you hit manufacturing cost limitation, so this grinder is likely near that limit in terms of bang for buck. I think it's a lot of grinder for the money. If they try to lower cost any more, the burrs will have to be smaller or they'll have to replace a lot of the metal with plastic.

It would stall if you put a light roast coffee on 300 rpm.

Kyle suspected it stall at auger, not burrs.

Yeah I had some squealing with mine as well. I do think the 64v in theory was great, but so many issues with it, and most importantly the stalling. I was sent an updated version and then told it still has the issue, so I think the biggest hurdle these days is getting over stalling. That said, the 83V seems much better on that front, though not perfect, and not anywhere near vexatious in my opinion. But I do think this body style with the vertical set burrs is a nice touch and overall, this is a super sturdy feeling grinder too.

@@Sprometheus interestingly, mine’s not stalled at all. It was the erratic grind performance that was doing my head in. Having- for the time being at any rate- solved that, its grind performance is much more predictable; ie, shot speeds are not all over the place, with the same coffee, dose, and setting

They've released a 3rd version, with an even lighter adjustment to the motor control, to prevent stalling, as well a physical bean disc. I have a v2 of it, and just bought and received the bean disk I'll be installing coming days.

Agreed. I have the same df83v2 grinder with the ssp hu burrs and I pull great espresso shots and great pour overs that I don’t see the need to replace it. The lack of portafilter forks is also a no go for me. I know it’s something small but I’ve gotten used to dosing directly into it.

SSP burrs should be your present for your 26th birthday. trust me, they make a difference and is a great upgrade

@@jeef16 I will definitely upgrade my burrs eventually. 🙂

83 V2 should retain ground as well, in its poor chute design.

@@thamtham4924 it really doesn't. I never get more than 0.1g.

I haven’t yet used the Zerno, so I can’t say. But I’d venture to say the Zerno is more effective at pre-breaking because it’s literal selling point they use and they make additional options for it. But I’d be happy to compare when it lands on my bar. Only a matter of time.

Yes please a zerno vs df83v review will be great, i cant choose

I'd think the quality of the Zerno would be light years ahead of any DF grinder.

@@christiancuadros Choose one that's available / easy to purchase (DF83v might have the advantage there), which one you like the looks of, if you care about variable RPM and a quieter motor, or if you think you'll happy with the 83mm stock burrs or if you'd need to invest in SSP burrs (in 83mm they're pricey). The Zerno is a lot smaller, and made in the USA. Probably slightly quieter grinding because it's quieter than my DF83 (Gen 1 v1) but the motor on the Zerno is louder.

Literally! I got my 83V2 and just a couple short months later - this comes out. 🤯 Glad to see it's still a bit obnoxious sounding or else I'd Def be adding it to the cart. 🙄

It does fit into a portafilter but not as tightly as the Niche cup or rest in the rim like the OG DF cup, so its workflow isn’t as good.

It’s rare that I’ll blatantly recommend a piece of equipment. I think it’s more important to lay out the use, workflow, performance, where it excels and falls short and let the viewer determine if it meets their specific needs and wants.

Agreed! Was thinking of offloading my 078S for this 83V but now I am left wondering.... maybe I keep the 078S at the amazing $500 price point I got it for.

@@KushalJoshiP if the 078s (which I haven’t used) is as good as the 064s that I think was the best piece of kit I tried in 2023, you’re probably better served with the 078s. The only thing you’re missing is burr options and a wider RPM range.

Are you talking about a fuller shot the board that I showed a bit in the video or the motor itself inside that case? Because I fully intended to open it, but when I got to it I immediately proceeded to strip one of the bolts. Have yet to try to fix it.

​@@SprometheusYeah a more head-on, complete shot of the board would've been great. Big yikes with the stripped screw!! 😢

Same. I toyed around with a fart sound but this one just hit different.

@@Sprometheus you’re an artiste

@@Sprometheus kinda sounded like a sex noise :D

Yeah part of me wonders if they have somewhat hurt their own business by quickly producing new versions of their grinders, leading folks to want to wait for the second gen to get one with the kinks worked out. I hadn’t heard of the Pinion, but I love a 64mm grinder so I’ll take a look for sure.

IYKYK

You don’t. My 55mm flat burr makes better coffee than my DF83. People are always convinced that bigger means better. Larger burrs in a commercial setting makes sense. For home use? Nah. I think people are irrational when it comes to burr size.

​@@andrewdavis9438 What's your 55mm grinder, Eureka Specialita? Have you compared directly? You'd get much more flavour clarity out the DF83 or even a DF64 vs Specialita, which maybe isn't suited to your taste profile or for the coffee you use, but I'd say it doesn't make it better or worse, just very different. Going from 54mm (or 55 according to Eureka) to 64mm was a huge jump for me, going from 64 to 75 or 83mm wasn't that much of a change. But I think it also depends on other variables of the grinders design as well, like feed rate/RPM and flow of coffee particles out, retention etc.

@@BensCoffeeRants yeah, Specialita. I have a DF64 Gen 2 as well at my office and don’t find it particular great for pour over, use it primarily for espresso.

@@andrewdavis9438I've never tried the gen2 burrs but the older italmill burrs were supposed to be worse and I find them fine for espresso not so great for coarser grinding but its probably better than the specialita for coarse grinding and also much easier switching back and forth between brew methods.

He just showed you about 50% on the lower RPM to what like 90% or 95% on the higher RPM.

That’s a good question. I do think the Niche’s stock Mazzer espresso burrs are superior to the stock espresso burrs on the DF83V. I think its main saving grace is the RPM control. So I think I’d still go for this for the added level of control.

@@Sprometheus I'm surprised you like the Mazzer burrs better than the new DF espresso burrs, unless you just prefer the more traditional profile with more blended flavour and more body (I believe that's how mazzers are generally). I haven't tried either myself (yet). Did you season the burrs? Not sure if that's a factor, I found some burrs do benefit from seasoning and others don't seem to, or not as much.

I've preordered and don't plan to stare at the right side of the grinder every morning. I really don't think it's a big deal. This is a crazy value at $800 and we can see where they saved costs. At its price, though, there's really not any competition.

Haha I do get you it’s…it’s an aesthetically interesting choice for sure. Not my favorite, but I hardly notice it in daily use.

It’s an insane value for the price. I’m glad they made the feature choices that they’ve made. Actually curious about the stock burrs so I’ll use them for a bit before swapping them out for SSPsn (if I don’t get the shots I want)

Given how many people complained about the RPM display on the DF64V being on all the time, adding the on/off switch is good because that means they are listening. Just the implementation need a bit of work.

It’s a Chinese brand what do you expect? They’re only good at stealing other people’s designs not designing things themselves 😂

Always my friend, thanks for watching!

its intrinsic to all vRPM grinders. theres just to no way to control the RPM through voltage and still keep torque up at low RPM, unless you control RPM through a gearbox like you do with a milling machine or lathe rather than giving the motor just less power straight up. maybe thats the new wave of vRPM grinder designs that dont suck lol

There is a review around that mentioned absolute no stalling above 500rpms, which is very low compared to other non variable rpm grinders.

It only stalls if you put a light roast coffee on 300rpm.

It stalls on a setting you will never use.

He should let us know what RPM ranges he had the issue with, from working with other grinders and based on what others have reported, It's likely just at the very lowest range. It's nice to have the option of going lower RPM for pour overs maybe (less power required to grind coarser) rather than have a company limit the lower RPM to like 800 rpm (Timemore!) as a safeguard... Even Weber Key had stalling issues (mine didn't, but did have mini-stalls where it paused and recovered (that one works at a ridiculous 30RPM though!), the same thing happened on my P64 at or close to the lowest RPM, which is like 200-300RPM!)

There’s a chance you’ll be seeing it in the near future…

@@Sprometheus- A vertical burr, pre-breaker shootout would be fantastic. I have the Niche/LMLM setup today - you know it better than anybody! I’m happy with the traditional espresso machine and love the Niche workflow, but want to improve the grind quality. I nearly went for the Zerno, but decided to wait for the Philos, rather than wait for the Zerno funding/production business model. According to LH, the hyper alignment and stability of the Zerno adds more value than does burr size. I’m hoping that Mazzer can deliver a similarly solid foundation. On paper, the blind burrs of the Zerno are a win. While some criticize the rear adjustment of the Philos, keeping the threads away from the coffee and being able to clean the unit without touching the adjustment is a win. I can hardly wait for the Philos review. Unless there are negative surprises, it’s likely to be my next grinder. Now… which burr set to order for my 90% espresso lifestyle and my desire for more clarity?

They both look like choo choo trains to me 🤣

@@dudea3378- Given that espresso machines have steam boilers, I want my next espresso machine to look like a steam locomotive!

Hahaha I think it’s close to living up to it. Without the stalls it would, but it’s bump in the road considering the other features. What I’ll be curious about is its long term reliability.

@@Sprometheus absolutely agree. Really my comment was only to make the train joke. But in all seriousness these line of grinders are def on my radar. I dont have a large budget but I will be looking to upgrade at some point. These interest me.

Why not wait for the 3rd, 4th, 5th 8th? That's the problem with them doing incremental updates / fixes and trying to make a better product, vs one company that continues to make a faulty product and releases a new one every 5 years instead. So far it seems like a well made grinder from what we've seen and it seems like they're learning on how to improve things as they go along. DF grinders have been out for a while now, although this is a new design.

Me and literally a million other KZfaqrs who use that sound haha.

It could be a moot point from a user perspective. And maybe I’m just old fashioned, but I think if any product is sold with features they should all work regardless of how those features would be generally be used. To me it’s a matter of holding manufacturers responsible for what they sell.

@@Sprometheus perhaps, but to give an extreme example to illustrate the other side of the argument, would you expect a Porsche to drive properly if you kept it in 5th gear? I don't know anyone who'd grind a light roast finely, why would they try driving from a standstill in 5th gear?

Three letters. RDT.

I think Mii coffee is good. DF / Turin / Giotta? grinders are made by a mystery company basically and are re-branded and sold from various distributors depending on what country you're in you have different 'safe' options. I've dealt with CoffeeAddicts in Canada, And Espresso Outlet in USA. They're both great, and will support you if you have any issues. I've never dealt with mii coffee but they're legit, the thing I don't know is whether they'll help you out if you run into any issues or if you're on your own (like whole latte love apparently :o). Oh I've also purchased from Coffee & Tales which is overseas I believe but shipped to Canada, no problem with them, but never ran into any issues to test their support.

I think you’re looking at it from a wrong perspective: them releasing new versions does not worsen the one you have. If it was good enough for you when you bought it, it still is when the new versions come out. What you feel isn’t real, it’s just fomo. I‘m happy they iterate so quickly. I still use my DF64v1, but when I finally upgrade-upwards to a „better“ model-I know what I‘ll get will have gone through a lot of iterations and refinements; some direct, some through its siblings, but all proven in the real world.

@@Runoratsupoint is they should think it thru before release. Too many iteration in short time. 83 has 2nd version in 6 months after v1 release.

Thank you, and I get that. The term budget is subjective, and based on the market for 80+mm grinders with these kinds of features is often reserved for prices well into four figures, so I thats why its a Beast on a Budget.

yes it is budget for people who are clearly a bit sick.

@@thru_and_thru I spent $3500 Canadian on my most expensive grinder. :D For an 83mm burr grinder it's THE budget option because the next one would be around $4000USD I think. (Look up the Mazzer ZM) :D Oh wait there's the Niche Duo now too. I Believe that's similarly priced to the DF83. Another budget 83mm grinder.

Mahlkonig should be paying you for your longstanding grinder KZfaq comment propaganda campaign.

@@Sprometheus lol I wish. I’m just keeping it really. Might do some more upgrades to my ek43

I see your point, and I think I mentioned this in a comment earlier that the term budget seems to be sliding as time goes on. But, in my defense, the market for 80+mm burr, RPM controlled grinders is an often reserved for the well over four figure mark. So budget is by comparison of what else is out there.

Imagine you would want to buy a sports car. If that sports car costs like 30k but roughly has the same speed and functionality as a higher priced, established car for like 90k, wouldn’t you consider the 30k one budget? It is all a question of how you categorise things. You could buy a bicycle for 300 bucks, but also for 10000. I definitely see your point, but I think Spro explained it pretty well in his commentary.

Compare it to other 83mm rpm controlled grinders and then tell me this isn’t a “beast on a budget”…

I don't think it is absurd, it just requires some context. This is a budget alternative to a class of grinders that typically costs 1.5-3x as much for similar functionality. It is a budget entry into that specific segment, no different than the Nissan GTR was a budget supercar when it debuted. I think Spro's previous first look called it a 'budget endgame grinder', which more accurately reflects his opinion on where it sits.

Very disappointing comment. You clearly didn’t spend 12 minutes watching and 99% of your time was spent creating a complaint and missed the brewing section completely. Next time utilize your ability to skip to the clearly labeled chapters before you cry into your keyboard lol.

⁠​⁠​⁠@@Sprometheus nice catch, let me help you on creating a more accurate label for others: 9:40-9.53 for espresso quality, that’s 1.8% of the total video length! Great work!

@@octopusheng You would rather more time is spent talking about such a subjective, and preferential based topic like taste, which varies massively from not only person to person, but also coffee to coffee, or water, prep, etc. than the performance of the equipment that will essentially be across the board for everyone. Noted. You just want flowery language, and no substance. I’m sure you can find that elsewhere.