Did Joseph translate with a seer stone or Urim and Thummim?

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Mormonism with the Murph

Mormonism with the Murph

Күн бұрын

#bookofmormon #seerstone #josephsmith #UrimandThummim #spectacles #goldplates #martinharris #bymeansoftheurimandthummim #nephiteinterpreters #lds #mormon #witnesses #churchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints
In this video we examine sources supporting the Book of Mormon translation and what was the method of translation. Was it the seer stone or the Nephite interpreters. We read through many of the eye witness statements and other accounts of how the Book of Mormon was translated.
timecodes
00:00 Intro
02:30 My view on the nature of the translation
05:37 Joseph Smith's statements
08:56 Oliver's statements
11:00 Emma's statements
12:22 Martin's statements
15:30 David Whitmer's statements
25:13 Other statements on Book of Mormon translation
32:48 Tallying the sources
35:44 Final thoughts
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Пікірлер: 99
@philandrews2860
@philandrews2860 5 ай бұрын
Thanks for putting all this data together! Looking forward also to part 2 to see how the various scholars have interpreted these sometimes conflicting bits of data. I'm happy with it being done 'by the gift and power of God', whatever the actual physical method entailed, but it is interesting to 'speculate' on the mechanics of how Joseph Smith did it.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
Every eyewitness to the BOM's production who related details said that it was done via the stone in the hat thingy.
@philandrews2860
@philandrews2860 5 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 - I'm inclined to believe that as well, either with the interpreters or with the seer stone(s), or both. I don't have a problem with any of those methods.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
@@philandrews2860 What you should have a problem with is that Joseph Smith claimed to "translate the golden plates" in 1828-29 via the same means he had used to defraud people out of their money from 1822-26. "I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book.... I told them then, that I considered the whole of it a delusion, and advised them to abandon it. The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!"---Isaac Hale, 1833 "It is well known that Joe Smith never pretended to have any comunion with angels, until a long period after the pretended finding of his book, and that the juggling [folk-magic] of himself or father went no further than the pretended faculty of seeing wonders in a 'peep stone,' and the occasional interview with the spirit, supposed to have the custody of hidden treasures: and it is also equally well-known that a vagabond fortune-teller by the name of Walters, who then resided in the town of Sodus, and was once committed to the jail of this county for juggling, was the constant companion and bosom friend of these money-digging impostors." ---Palmyra Reflector, February 28, 1831. "When we arrived at Mr. Hale’s, in Harmony, Pa. from which place he had taken his wife, a scene presented itself, truly affecting. His father-in-law (Mr. Hale) addressed Joseph, in a flood of tears: “You have stolen my daughter and married her. I had much rather have followed her to her grave. You spend your time in digging for money - pretend to see in a stone, and thus try to deceive people.” Joseph wept, and acknowledged he could not see in a stone now, nor never could; and that his former pretensions in that respect, were all false. He then promised to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones." ---Peter Ingersoll, 1833.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
@@philandrews2860 What you *should* have a problem with is this: "I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book. Each of them had a written piece of paper which they were comparing, and some of the words were "my servant seeketh a greater witness, but no greater witness can be given him." There was also something said about "three that were to see the thing"--meaning I supposed, the Book of Plates, and that "if the three did not go exactly according to orders, the thing would be taken from them." I enquired whose words they were, and was informed by Joseph or Emma, (I rather think it was the former) that they were the words of Jesus Christ. I told them then, that I considered the whole of it a delusion, and advised them to abandon it. The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!" ---Isaac Hale, 1834.
@jgoldensshadow
@jgoldensshadow 4 ай бұрын
There’s a few problems with just a simple tally. For starters, it doesn’t take into account the reliability of the sources. David Whitmer can’t seem to keep his story straight when it comes to what Joseph used and when. The only instance we have of Martin Harris saying Joseph used anything other than the interpreters can’t be verified since it was printed several years after he died. Emma’s Last Testimony raised suspicion even when it was printed and when the opportunity to refer to it came in a letter to the editor of the Saints Herald three years later, they didn’t and instead pointed to Joseph and Oliver as the definitive sources for the translation. And then there’s what the Lord had to say on the matter in several instances of the D&C. I think it’s safe to say that Joseph exclusively used the interpreters with the plates.
@jeremims9044
@jeremims9044 3 ай бұрын
You nailed it. It's definitely *not* a tally. The further away from the event in time and the further removed from primary one is, the less credible the account as an accurate telling. I personally didn't have a problem with seerstone, but I'm just not buying the record as supporting it now that I've delved into all the accounts and the circumstances behind them. I'm not sure why the church is insisting now on both narratives. Just trying to play politics? Idk.
@Greg-McIver
@Greg-McIver 5 ай бұрын
I like the thoughtful research Jonathan Neville and Hannah Stoddard have done. I've come to the conclusion that the plates were used just as Joseph and Oliver have said and it was done by the gift and power of God using the Urim and Thummim or Nephite interpreters as they're also called. The stone in a hat was not used only as a demo in front of a few. If the plates we're not used, why would the Lord have all these people go to the trouble of manufacturing plates and tediously inscribing on them if they were simply to be ignored? One day we will be able to see the plates for ourselves in the Lord's museum.
@StandforTruth712
@StandforTruth712 5 ай бұрын
Part 2 of 2 What of “Emma’s Last Testimony" we hear quoted from so often? Here are some facts regarding it: Emma’s last testimony was a supposed interview recorded by Joseph Smith III, President of the RLDS Church and published in “Saint's Herald,” Vol. 26, No 19 p. 289. (1 October 1879) Emma had died six months earlier on April 30, 1879, age 74. In a letter to William Smith, JSIII stated that his mother “was fast failing” when he arrived. (One must question her mental state at this time. No account of mental state given, however.) The interview included a question about JS’s involvement in polygamy, which Emma denied. Historians do not accept her account of polygamy because of too much evidence to the contrary. However, they accept her account of the STITH, which contradicts D&C 9, 10 and 14 of our canonized scripture and other firsthand accounts. In her last testimony, Emma claims she wrote hour after hour while his (JSIII’s) father (JS) sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated from the stone with nothing between them. The motive for stating that there was nothing between them was to counter the widely accepted “Mormonism Unvailed” claim that JS sat behind a curtain and dictated the BOM from the Solomon Spaulding manuscript. At the time of Emma’s death JS III was fighting against the Spaulding manuscript claims as well as claims that his father had started polygamy. Polygamy was the dividing issue between the Brighamites (The saints who moved west) and the Josephites (Those who remained and denounced polygamy). Josephites established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Nine years early in 1870, Emma, corresponding with her friend, Emma Pilgrim, wrote in her own hand, the following regarding BOM translation: “Now, the first part my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummin, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost. After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color. I cannot tell whether that account in the Times and Seasons is correct or not because someone stole all my books and I have none to refer to at present, if I can find one that has that account I will tell you what is true and what is not.” NOTE: If Emma had sat hour after hour writing while Joseph sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated, why didn’t she tell this to her friend in 1870. She stated in response to her friend’s inquiry that she couldn’t recall how the BOM was translated after the first 116 pages without her articles and books. But she had no problem remembering “while fast failing” on her deathbed nine years later? In this 1870 letter, Emma mentions the stone but can’t remember any details about how it was used without referring to her Times and Seasons articles and books that she says were stolen. This shows that she was not a firsthand witness to the STITH theory. Her account, therefore, is hearsay. Emma describes the stone but does not outright state she had seen it. That she saw it can only be assumed. When refuting David Whitmer's claim regarding JS being a fallen Prophet, JS III, in the "Saints Herald, volume 33, o. 45, November 13, 1886, refutes the STITH by referring to Oliver Cowdery's Letter I of 8 (1834) and his father's John Wentworth Letter published in 1842. These state Joseph Smith's claims of BOM translation of the plates by means of the U&T. " JS III stated the following from this "Saints Herald '' Article " [It] must be allowed that these men best knew by what means the Book of Mormon was translated and the "chief instrument" was the interpreters.” JS III accepted his father had a seer stone but he completely invalidated Emma’s Last Testimony by accepting the U&T translation and not citing her last testimony in the Saints Herald article. It must also be noted that the OC Letter I which JS had copied into his personal history which gives it more credibility, was written to refute the false translation claims, (STITH and Spalding Manuscript) made in "Mormonism Unvailed. Here is an ASSUMPTION not to be accepted as fact: In many Section headings of the D&C it notes that the revelations were given to JS through the U& T. Since Joseph was not allowed to show anyone the U&T, maybe he put the stones and his face in the hat as he dictated the revelations. Perhaps witnesses to these revelations assumed that that is how he translated the BOM:) Decide for yourself. I side with Joseph.
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
Why did Emma say “nothing between us” instead of the “plates between us”. Either the spectacles (which is not how it happened) or the seer stone in the hat, the plates were not physically there so there’s no reason to think that her account is hearsay. By the way the D&C headings were added after the U&T term was retrofitted, so that’s not a valid apologetic.
@brentknudson311
@brentknudson311 5 ай бұрын
@@dr33776 The problem is that Emma's statements were given decades after the events in question. It was near the end of her life, after unimaginable trauma, and in the middle of heated drama and controversy. To take her word as the gold standard is strange as it contradicts the statements given by Joseph and Oliver. Emma was only actually involved in the translation during the first part, and even then she claims that the Urim and Thumim were used. She only mentions the stone and the hat in regards to the part of the translation that she wasn't personally involved in. So why should her statements regarding the translation overrule the statements of the people who were more directly responsible for the translation? It makes no sense.
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
@@brentknudson311 so your problem is the time between her account and the event? What about the 1830 newspaper articles and affidavits from Emma’s family that describe the stone in the hat? It was generally known in the early days that Joseph was a scryer and when describing what they saw when Joseph dictated the book they all, independently, agreed he used the stone in the hat. You can say they are antagonistic statements which is your right but at least don’t claim that Emma/whitmer were the only ones putting the idea out there decades later to “disprove” the Spaulding theory. I don’t understand how “trauma, drama, and controversy” could confuse Emma/Whitmer/Harris and others to go from “Joseph had a breastplate, two stones inside two rings of silver with the plates on the table” to “he put his face in a hat and dictated”. Other than special pleading to Joseph and Oliver who are documented to have lied in public.
@brentknudson311
@brentknudson311 5 ай бұрын
@@dr33776 Did you even watch the video? It's obvious that you don't believe Joseph Smith, and therefore desperately want to twist yourself into knots trying to discredit him any way you can. Go for it. After going through all the statements and common sense, the stone in the hat theory doesn't hold up. Sorry.
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
@@brentknudson311 I’m twisting into knots? 😂😂 you are the one making up excuses and plausible explanations of why Emma, Harris, whitmer, knight etc. got it wrong. Even Russell Nelson and the church admit he used the stone in the hat. Watch his ridiculous video putting his face into a hat. What will you twist yourself into next? That Joseph was not a polygamist? 😂😂😂
@michaelsun9155
@michaelsun9155 5 ай бұрын
Here’s how the B of M was written: Sidney Rigdon stole a Spalding manuscript (his second book) from the printer shop where he worked. Joseph tore off one page at a time and placed it in his hat. At translation time, Joseph put his face in his hat and read words from the page. - oh, he also put his seer stone in his hat - a rock he found when digging a well - notice, sometimes Joseph didn’t know how to pronounce the word, so he spelled it (why? Because he was reading from a page) The scribe wrote down the words. This explains how Joseph could write those many pages in such a short time. Also, many witnesses who knew Spaulding testified that the B of M was exactly the same as Spaulding’s second book.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
I don't see how Smith could read from a paper that was in his hat. There would be no light to see by. IMO, it's more likely that the whole stone-in-the-hat thing was just a ruse/prop to fool his followers into believing that he had supernatural powers. If Smith and Cowdery had someone else's manuscript to copy from, they probably did it while no one else could see the process. That would explain Smith's propensity to keep the "plates" hidden from view, or read off the "translation" from behind a curtain, etc. That alone tells us that Smith was trying to hide something.
@michaelsun9155
@michaelsun9155 4 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Smith used a white top hat which would let the light in through the sides.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 4 ай бұрын
@@michaelsun9155 LOL. You are a funny guy.
@jgoldensshadow
@jgoldensshadow 4 ай бұрын
One small wrinkle: Joseph and Sidney Rigdon didn’t even know the other existed until at least a year after the BoM was printed.
@jeremims9044
@jeremims9044 3 ай бұрын
Not sure if you're just trolling, but the Spaulding theory being used as your principle argument tells me you're arguing from the 19th century. Welcome to the 21st century.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 5 ай бұрын
The thumbnail title assumes that they are not the same thing.
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
All early sources, including even sources used for the seerstone narrative such as Emma Smith and David Whitmer, used the term "Urim & Thummim" to refer only to the interpreters which came with the plates, and referred to the seer stone as a separate object. It was only much later that a few sources began to conflate the two.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 The term "Urim & Thummim" does not appear in any documents re: Mormonism until after the church was founded. Before that, the term "interpreters" was used. Research indicates that one of Joseph Smith's followers, WW Phelps, found the term "Urim & Thummim" in the Old Testament around 1831, showed it to Joseph, and Smith adopted the term to describe his alleged divine medium. Every eyewitness to the BOM's production, who related details of it, said that the "seer stone in the hat" version was used, rather than the giant spectacles in silver bows fastened to a breastplate version.
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 The comment was a reply to the comment that there was no difference between the seer stone and the Urim & Thummim. You are correct that the term only appears in the early 1830s. Earlier references are to the "interpreters" or "spectacles." But that is irrelevant to the topic of the video. As to your other statement, you are just completely wrong. Except for some highly questionable statements attributed to Emma, no actual eyewitness to the translation said the seer stone was used. Instead they testified that the spectacle like double lens instrument that came with the plates (which came to be referred to as the Urim & Thummim) was the means of performing the translation. This includes the two primary eyewitnesses, Joseph and Oliver. Watch the video!
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 "Except for some highly questionable statements attributed to Emma, no actual eyewitness to the translation said the seer stone was used." LOL. In order to believe that, you have to believe that at least half a dozen people in Joseph Smith's innermost circle of relatives and earliest followers all somehow concocted an identical lie, independently of each other, and repeated it for decades. You have to believe that Smith's early convert, benefactor, and lifelong faithful church member Joseph Knight made this detailed description up out of whole cloth: "Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated." The BOM's production took place in the Whitmer's tiny log cabin, with little or no privacy. Emma, Martin Harris, Joseph Knight, and the Whitmer family were closely involved in the events, even several months before Cowdery arrived on the scene. When you question their combined testimony on the "face in the hat" version, you're questioning the basic honesty and credibility of the very people who were intimately involved in the earliest events of the Mormon religion. You also have to believe that Emma's father, Isaac Hale, concocted this event out of whole cloth: "I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book. Each of them had a written piece of paper which they were comparing, and some of the words were "my servant seeketh a greater witness, but no greater witness can be given him." There was also something said about "three that were to see the thing"--meaning I supposed, the Book of Plates, and that "if the three did not go exactly according to orders, the thing would be taken from them." I enquired whose words they were, and was informed by Joseph or Emma, (I rather think it was the former) that they were the words of Jesus Christ. I told them then, that I considered the whole of it a delusion, and advised them to abandon it. The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!" Pray tell, how did the "antagonistic" Isaac Hale manage to invent this story of his first-hand eyewitness experience, and miraculously make it match the testimonies of Smith's closest relatives and earliest converts? Also, how did the editor of the Cincinnati Advertiser somehow miraculously manage to concoct and publish this fantastic lie on June 2, 1830: "A fellow by the name of Joseph Smith, who resides in the upper part of Susquehanna county, has been, for the last two years we are told, employed in dedicating as he says, by inspiration, a new bible. He pretended that he had been entrusted by God with a golden bible which had been always hidden from the world. Smith would put his face into a hat in which he had a white stone, and pretend to read from it, while his coadjutor transcribed." Pray tell, where would this newspaper editor get this information which was published two months after Joseph Smith founded his church, if not from someone in Smith's inner circle? It's perfectly obvious that Smith's "translation device" was the same "seer stones" he had used in his bogus folk-magic practices, and that in his effort to re-invent himself as a Biblical-style "prophet," he began using the term "Urim & Thummim" in 1833, which his disciple WW Phelps had come across while reading the Old Testament. The fact that he altered the wording of a "revelation" allegedly received in April 1829 to interpolate the term "Urim & Thummim" into it when he re-published it in 1835 is proof from his own mind and hand of his efforts to alter his own history. And that is what we call a "cover-up."
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
Samuel Whitney Richards' account of Oliver Cowdery's description of the translation came from Oliver when we stayed with the Richards family in 1848 after Oliver's return to the Church.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
There are multiple accounts of the stone-in-the-hat version which were published shortly after the BOM's production. For example: The Cincinnati Advertiser of June 2, 1830: "A fellow by the name of Joseph Smith, who resides in the upper part of Susquehanna county, has been, for the last two years we are told, employed in dedicating as he says, by inspiration, a new bible. He pretended that he had been entrusted by God with a golden bible which had been always hidden from the world. Smith would put his face into a hat in which he had a white stone, and pretend to read from it, while his coadjutor transcribed." "The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!" (Isaac Hale, "Susquehanna Register", May 1, 1834.)
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 none of these accounts come from actual witnesses, they are all hearsay
@jeremims9044
@jeremims9044 3 ай бұрын
Emma Smiths account was in 1870, documented by JS III (RLDS pres), printed after her death so there could be no corrections/cross examinations. She also denied polygamy as being practiced. So there are some problems....
@paulsavage2157
@paulsavage2157 5 ай бұрын
Why does nobody mention Hiram Page's use of a stone to purportedly receive revelations and the possibility that some memories were cross-contaminated?
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
Tell me how someone that was in the room could go from “Joseph had spectacles, a breastplate, and gold plates on the table” (which they allegedly could not see) to “Joseph put his stone in a hat” which they COULD see and testify . How is that “cross-contaminated” memory? Think about it logically; why did the early members, including Oliver, accept Hiram’s revelations if they were unfamiliar with seer stones?
@paulsavage2157
@paulsavage2157 5 ай бұрын
@@dr33776 Is it logical to not ask a question because you already presume to know what the answer should be? There is a huge body of recent literature on memory cross contamination that most historians simply ignore because there isn't really an easy means for testing/applying it to dead people. It cuts every direction, both for people who are otherwise trustworthy and people who are not. I am not pushing for a specific answer, but I am asking why the analysis appears to be disregarding what we now understand better from neuroscience.
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
@@paulsavage2157 the statements are independent of one another and coming from many different perspectives (members, former members, critics, first hand, second hand, etc.). The vast majority of them say stone in the hat, that debunks your entire cross contamination argument.
@paulsavage2157
@paulsavage2157 5 ай бұрын
@@dr33776 You are simply doubling-down on your conclusory position on the assumption that I am making an argument on what the result of the analysis should be. Hard to have a meaningful exchange if you are going to keep jumping to conclusions, so this is apparently not the right forum for it.
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
@@paulsavage2157 you’re doing the equivalent of “just asking questions”. I’m telling you how and why your arguments make no sense. Before exploring collective memory cross contamination you have to explain why so many independent sources (critical, faithful, contemporary, and far from the events) report a consistent translation method. After exhausting those possibilities then you can say, “well this person was repeating what this other person said, etc” until then the burden is on the person claiming that only Joseph and Oliver are the reliable ones.
@keithholgreen7294
@keithholgreen7294 5 ай бұрын
We give Moses credit for the first 5 books in the Bible. He wrote about things 3-4K years before his time. Has anyone ever scrutinized Moses? I mean he wrote about talking snakes, floods, huge boats, annihilationof the human race, unicorns, dragons, talking animals and so forth.
@mormonismwiththemurph
@mormonismwiththemurph 5 ай бұрын
Biblical scholars have, Moses didn't write the first 5 books
@brentknudson311
@brentknudson311 5 ай бұрын
For me there just isn't enough solid evidence to reject what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation. Emma and David's recollections certainly should be taken into consideration, but they are both inconsistent and contradictory in many of their statements. And Emma only really was directly involved in the translation at the beginning where she claims the urim and thumim were used. David was never actually involved in the translation. And both of their statements were given years after the fact.
@user-og2wt3le4j
@user-og2wt3le4j 5 ай бұрын
Emma did say JS also buried his face in a top hat with a seer stone.
@brentknudson311
@brentknudson311 5 ай бұрын
Yes she did. But decades after the fact. And not in reference to the part of the translation that she was personally involved with. I don't find her recollection convincing enough to ignore what Joseph and Oliver claimed about the translation.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 5 ай бұрын
I think the whole debate is a false binary, Oliver Cowdery, at least, called both the spectacles and any seer stones by the name Urim and Thummim.
@livingmombirth4005
@livingmombirth4005 5 ай бұрын
Let's not forget that both Emma and David were apostates involved in other churches when they made their statements. David's own accounts contradict themselves. That doesn't make Emma an unreliable source necessarily but neither David's nor Emma's accounts jive at all with what those that were involved directly had to say about it. So were Joseph and Oliver liars or were Emma and David misled? If one looks at the full body of the work produced by Joseph why would any reasonable person think that it wasn't likely exactly what he he said it was.
@StandforTruth712
@StandforTruth712 5 ай бұрын
What of “Emma’s Last Testimony" we hear quoted from so often? Here are some facts regarding it: Emma’s last testimony was a supposed interview recorded by Joseph Smith III, President of the RLDS Church and published in “Saint's Herald,” Vol. 26, No 19 p. 289. (1 October 1879) Emma had died six months earlier on April 30, 1879, age 74. In a letter to William Smith, JSIII stated that his mother “was fast failing” when he arrived. (One must question her mental state at this time. No account of mental state given however.) The interview included a question about JS’s involvement in polygamy which Emma denied. Historians do not accept her account of polygamy because of too much evidence to the contrary. However they accept her account of the STITH which contradicts D&C 9, 10 and 14 our canonized scripture and other first hand accounts. In her last testimony, Emma claims she wrote hour after hour while his (JSIII’s) father (JS) sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated from the stone with nothing between them. The motive for stating that there was nothing between them was to counter the widely accepted “Mormonism Unvailed” claim that JS sat behind a curtain and dictated the BOM from the Solomon Spaulding manuscript. At the time of Emma’s death JS III was fighting against the Spaulding manuscript claims as well as claims that his father had started polygamy. Polygamy was the dividing issue between the Brighamites (The saints who moved west) and the Josephites (Those who remained and denounced polygamy). Josephites established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Nine years early in 1870, Emma, corresponding with her friend, Emma Pilgrim, wrote in her own hand, the following regarding BOM translation: “Now, the first part my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummin, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost. After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color. I cannot tell whether that account in the Times and Seasons is correct or not because someone stole all my books and I have none to refer to at present, if I can find one that has that account I will tell you what is true and what is not.” NOTE: If Emma had sat hour after hour writing while Joseph sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated, why didn’t she tell this to her friend in 1870. She stated in response to her friend’s inquiry that she couldn’t recall how the BOM was translated after the first 116 pages without her articles and books. But she had no problem remembering “while fast failing” on her deathbed nine years later? In this 1870 letter, Emma mentions the stone but can’t remember any details about how it was used without referring to her Times and Seasons articles and books that she says were stolen. This shows that she was not a first hand witness to the STITH theory. Her account therefore is hearsay. Emma describes the stone but does not outright state she had seen it. That she saw it can only be assumed. When refuting David Whitmer's claim regarding JS being a fallen Prophet, JS III, in the "Saints Herald, volume 33, o. 45, November 13, 1886 refutes the STITH by referring to Oliver Cowdery's Letter I of 8 (1834) and his father's John Wentworth Letter published in 1842. These state Joseph Smith's claims of BOM translation of the plates by means of the U&T. " JS III stated the following from this "Saints Herald '' Article " [It] must be allowed that these men best knew by what means the Book of Mormon was translated and the "chief instrument" was the interpreters.” JS III accepted his father had a seer stone but he completely invalidated Emma’s Last Testimony by accepting the U&T translation and not citing her last testimony in the Saints Herald article. It must also be noted that the OC Letter I which JS had copied into his personal history which gives it more credibility, was written to refute the false translation claims, (STITH and Spalding Manuscript) made in "Mormonism Unvailed. Here is an ASSUMPTION not to be accepted as fact: In many Section headings of the D&C it notes that the revelations were given to JS through the U& T. Since Joseph was not allowed to show anyone the U&T maybe he put the stones and his face in the hat as he dictated the revelations. Perhaps witnesses to these revelations assumed that that is how he translated the BOM:) Decide for yourself. I side with Joseph.
@happyarchaeologist
@happyarchaeologist 5 ай бұрын
David Whitmer (1805 - 1888), one of the Three Witnesses: I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. Journey of David Whtmer, Chapter 25. 1862
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
David Whitmer never actually saw the translation. He was not in Harmony where about 75% of the translation took place, and was never a scribe for the part that was translated in Fayette where he was instead busy working his family's farm,
@happyarchaeologist
@happyarchaeologist 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 He was told by Old Joe. Well go read his book then: Journey of David Whtmer,
@happyarchaeologist
@happyarchaeologist 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 He was just told by Joseph and what occurred during that time period, you right sir.
@danielstark8356
@danielstark8356 5 ай бұрын
JOSEPH ONLY USED THE URIM AND THUMMIM HE COULD ONLY USE TWO SEER STONES AT ONCE AND THEY GAD TO BE FRAMED IN A BOW APOSTATES SAY HE ALSO USED ONE SEER STONE NOT FRAMED IN A BOW BUT THATS FALSE BECAUSE TWO IN A BOW IS GODLY BUT ONE WITHOUT A BOW IS WEIRD AND THE OCCULT ***To clarify, this comment is meant to be satire
@KnuttyEntertainment
@KnuttyEntertainment 5 ай бұрын
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie.
@livingmombirth4005
@livingmombirth4005 5 ай бұрын
I would love to jump on the Joseph Smith was a liar bandwagon too but there isn't one non-apostate primary source/witness that indicates that he used a brown rock that he put in a hat to read English words. I know that Brother Bushman would like to make a lot of money or prominence giving equal weight to what every source at the time said but that just results in incoherent mess not a real historical count that has any kind of meaning .
@dr33776
@dr33776 5 ай бұрын
@@livingmombirth4005 so you only assume “faithful members” were honest? Read some of Joseph’s and John Taylor’s statements about polygamy and tell me that again with a straight face.
@curtisdecker3175
@curtisdecker3175 5 ай бұрын
Urim and Thummim means lights and perfection. That's what he used.... the common denominator between the first vision and the translation is light... light light light is found all over.... that's why he needed the hat.... the hat blocked out worldly light... the human eye can only in reality see .0035% of the light spectrum. The spiritual eye is the eye which our spirit can filter more light around us. Our fleshly eyes do not see 99.96% of what is around us. The gift that God gave Joseph was the gift to see more light..... this actually means that it is even possible that the plates could not be seen by anything but the spiritual eye. It takes preparation to see more of the reality around us because it can really be a mentally traumatic experience. Revelations mentions the angel with the everlasting gospel. This means that John seen the angel and the gospel both, with the same spiritual eye.... which means the plates could only be seen by an eye that is prepared to see more than the .0035%... which explains Joseph letting his mother and brothers only touch with the plates covered.... if they see the plates. It could've been blinding or emotionally too much to see with that heavenly spectrum. Moses validates this concept of seeing God and not being able to live to talk about it. The veil is there to block 99.96% of light. Lol if you made it through my theory.... I'm open to opposition.
@bryancsimmons
@bryancsimmons 5 ай бұрын
Spoiler alert.....they are the same thing!
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
No, all early parties used the term Urim & Thummim only to refer to the spectacle-like instrument that was deposited with the plates. The seer stone was always referred to as a separate object.
@bryancsimmons
@bryancsimmons 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 Joseph Knight Sr and even Joseph's brother William used the term U&T to refer to the seer stone (stone in a hat). It appears that over time, the story of translation evolved from using a seer stone (stone in a hat), to Nephite Spectacles and then the U&T. It gets messy but it seems like all of the terms were used interchangeably. Almost as if Joseph wanted people to be confused about the actual translation process. He never went out of his way to correct anyone.
@jeremims9044
@jeremims9044 3 ай бұрын
​@bryancsimmons it appears that over time it evolved from seer stone to U&T? So then why are the primarily involved individuals reporting earlier than later accounts that it was the U&T? Why are the later accounts talking seer stone? I think you have your timelines messed up
@bryancsimmons
@bryancsimmons 3 ай бұрын
@@jeremims9044 It doesn't matter......they are the same thing. Apologists and WW Phelps made it messy.
@ericredd4544
@ericredd4544 5 ай бұрын
What ever you call it it was a prop in JS's fabrication. But, for anybody to question which prop he used is rediculous. Not one of the supposed ancient artifacts exist that JS claimed he received. So the chocolate colored seer stone that JS used for other endevors and that the church has in SLC is the only possible prop he could have used. I notice that you are disregarding the Essay the church has provided and you want to consult "scholars" and researchers who simple provide you with theories and their interpretaions of the records. Why do you not trust the Church Essay produced under the direction of the brethren? And once again, prop or no prop, JS could not and did not translate the BOM or the BOA. He had an opportunity to prove his ability with actual papyri and the translation of the words. He failed and it stands a witness against his available claim about the BOA. To then BELIEVE he could transalte an invisible record with a variety of ancient non existant props is even more to difficult when you must ignore a proven failure in the BOA.
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
Indeed, Joseph Smith's story that the angel took back the plates and the magic spectacles after he finished producing the BOM might be the original "My dog ate my homework" excuse.
@NancyBrown-xw8hg
@NancyBrown-xw8hg 5 ай бұрын
I have here in my hand a device with a glass looking window, it has a silver band around it and across the back. I can peer into it and see the other side of the world. It tells how to travel to far away destination, where to find food and make reservations for me to find sleep. I can tell me how to spell things properly and translate almost any language into English. It is amazing to me that Joseph Smith was talking about such things 150 years before mankind developed them.
@dalbar8241
@dalbar8241 5 ай бұрын
Have you actually read the BoA? Can you explain how the BoA is a failure?
@randyjordan5521
@randyjordan5521 5 ай бұрын
@@NancyBrown-xw8hg LOL. You are the kind of person that the LDS church leaders LOVE to have around. Now maybe you could tell us why Joseph Smith's magic I-Stone told him that there were horses, chariots, and steel tools and weaponry in ancient America, when none of those items existed in the Americas until the Europeans brought them over in the 1500s.
@sdfotodude
@sdfotodude 5 ай бұрын
The Papyrus for the book of Abraham and the kinderbook plates pretty much conclusively proved that Joseph Smith couldn't translate anything. But he was a good storyteller
@Misa_Susaki
@Misa_Susaki 5 ай бұрын
🤓
@livingmombirth4005
@livingmombirth4005 5 ай бұрын
You can believe whatever you like obviously but the truth couldn't be farther from your statement. If you are really interested in the truth I encourage you to dig a little deeper. If not, you have landed on some common myths told by those with an agenda and if that makes you feel comfortable then so be it.
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 5 ай бұрын
What do you do with Oliver Cowdery, who saw the plates, interpreters and translation process almost from beginning to end, later broke with Joseph, but never denied his testimony and eventually returned, reaffirming his statements?
@sdfotodude
@sdfotodude 5 ай бұрын
@@forzion1894 There are fools and charlatans born every second.
@Misa_Susaki
@Misa_Susaki 5 ай бұрын
@@sdfotodude For the world is full of zanies and fools, who dont believe in possible rules... impossible things are happening everyday! Or something-- however that Cinderella song goes. I agree in that I think you're terribly wrong.
@sdfotodude
@sdfotodude 5 ай бұрын
I'm not sure that you are using the word "translate" correctly.
@Misa_Susaki
@Misa_Susaki 5 ай бұрын
I see you everywhere.
@sdfotodude
@sdfotodude 5 ай бұрын
@@Misa_Susaki I'm addicted to everything Mormon.
@Misa_Susaki
@Misa_Susaki 5 ай бұрын
It's a lifestyle, for sure!
@sdfotodude
@sdfotodude 5 ай бұрын
@@Misa_Susaki I am only a bystander in the visual and emotional theory of life and Truth
@Misa_Susaki
@Misa_Susaki 5 ай бұрын
@@sdfotodude Sounds fancy.
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