Did Star Trek Actually Rip Off Ursula K. Le Guin?

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Steve Shives

Steve Shives

Күн бұрын

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▶Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
03:36 - "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach"
20:46 - "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
25:56 - Similarities and Differences
31:40 - Is "Rip-Off" the Right Term?
33:45 - Conclusion
36:21 - Shoutouts, Plugs and Announcements
#startrek #startrekstrangenewworlds #ursulakleguin #videoessay

Пікірлер: 667
@JessieGender1
@JessieGender1 Жыл бұрын
27:30 actually I interviewed Bill Wolcoff on my channel and he said that it was directly the intention to use LeGuin as the basis for the episode
@SteveShives
@SteveShives Жыл бұрын
Well, that settles that!
@Andrew-pr9xv
@Andrew-pr9xv Жыл бұрын
Jessie just swans in, shoots Steve down, then vanishes into the night.
@jondorsey2043
@jondorsey2043 Жыл бұрын
​@@Andrew-pr9xv I know right? Did she just execute a touch of well placed trolling? Just a real, natural "ackshually". The unmitigated gall. 😂
@cryptking6283
@cryptking6283 Жыл бұрын
@@Andrew-pr9xv Well since this is a Trek video, wouldn't it be uncloak then cloak :)
@ShadSterling
@ShadSterling Жыл бұрын
There were comments on reviews soon after the episode was released saying it was based on a script that predated publication of Omelas; I guess that wasn't the case
@normative
@normative Жыл бұрын
For me the most heartbreaking line in LeGuin’s story also marks an important difference from the SNW episode: “Please let me out, I’ll be good.” Because it implies that (unlike the First Servant) the child in Omelas *does not understand* what is being done to them, and is denied even whatever consolation might come from knowing the purpose their suffering serves. The Omelas child appears to think they are enduring a punishment because they were bad in some way, and might someday be released if they promise to be good, which the reader knows will never happen. That’s the line that punches me in the gut hardest whenever I read the story.
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
It's reminiscent of that nasty story about the daughter of Sejanus which you can find in Tacitus.
@scribblingjoe
@scribblingjoe Жыл бұрын
I think one important difference between the two stories is that in “The Ones Who Walk Away From Oomlas”, it seems to me that it is implied that the people are doing this for their own comfort. They seem to do this because rather than share their burdens and suffering, they choose to put all their suffering on one person. In the Star Trek story their very survival depends on this child’s sacrifice. A city falling is pretty catastrophic very few people (if any) will survive.
@AaronLitz
@AaronLitz Жыл бұрын
Oh _ugh,_ that just _hurts._
@rmsgrey
@rmsgrey Жыл бұрын
@@scribblingjoe The argument that their survival depends on the sacrifice only holds up if you assume that it's impossible to evacuate a city, even given centuries in which to do it. Sure, in the short term of needing a replacement battery to slot into the torture chair, the choice is sacrifice the child or plummet to death, but the day after the ascension ceremony, they could work on any of a number of solutions that would sacrifice their utopian comfort but not threaten their lives.
@michaelhall2709
@michaelhall2709 Жыл бұрын
That’s a really wonderful point. My heartbreak, especially given the nature of the world we’re living in, comes with this: “They know the child is there, all the people of Omelas. They know that it has to be there.” And, of course, the sentence that serves both as the story’s title and conclusion, that has and will continue to haunt me for the rest of my life.
@Sheriff_Bruce_Lee
@Sheriff_Bruce_Lee Жыл бұрын
I swear, you'd think Starfleet would have a form for potential host planets to fill out before a ship visits them. "Do you certify that you're civilization is not powered by the continuous suffering of one (or several) small child?" "Do you certify that any member of our crew will not be executed if they accidentally break a window while playing football?" etc.
@Bazookatone1
@Bazookatone1 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, how many times now have Federation vessels e countered seeming utopias, then it turns out its because htey eat puppies or something. Also, isn't the Federation mean tot be a utopia? That bit always puzzled, me, when the Enetprise show sup and Data or whomever goes "the society of bumfluff 7 has no war or crime or poverty", why doesn't picard say "Oh, you mean like us? but we also have replicators"m "yeah, you're right, what a s**t hole!"
@matthewstarkie4254
@matthewstarkie4254 Жыл бұрын
Does your civilisation worship a computer? - This [pic i] is a computer, does it look like your god?
@steveglover6411
@steveglover6411 Жыл бұрын
Or put on trial for walking on grass
@standardnerd9840
@standardnerd9840 Жыл бұрын
Does your population walk around half naked? ( If yes, the ship’s CMO should ensure all landing parties are properly vaccinated against known STDs)
@jimrodarmel8512
@jimrodarmel8512 Жыл бұрын
@@standardnerd9840 The ship's Chief First-contact Officer will presumably also remind all landing party personnel about the nature of informed consent. Walking around half-naked (from the perspective of an outsider) is not an excuse for sexual assault by the outsider. Also, landing party personnel should be reminded on how to avoid transmitting anything they are carrying to the natives, who have no conception of extraterrestrial venereal diseases (reference to what happened when Polynesian natives met horny, syphilis- and gonorrhea-infected European sailors.)
@Bakamoichigei
@Bakamoichigei Жыл бұрын
The moment they first dropped the word "Ascension" I was like "Ohhhhh, they're _totally_ puttin' that kid in a murder machine..." 😅
@app103
@app103 Жыл бұрын
A voice in my head started screaming "Sanctuary! Sanctuary!" as Omelas, Logan's Run, Strange New Worlds, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame all melted together.
@TechBearSeattle
@TechBearSeattle Жыл бұрын
Yup. My thinking was, "Ascension -> apotheosis -> becoming a god. And only the dead become gods."
@edique9772
@edique9772 Жыл бұрын
But the boy in Omelas and the First Servant in Star Trek don't get murdered. They might wish at times that they were. Their fate is worse than death -- they're both going to suffer for as long as they can keep him alive.
@rixlan
@rixlan Жыл бұрын
I'm surprised no one has brought up Spock's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one".
@susanscott8653
@susanscott8653 Жыл бұрын
I was thinking that myself.🤔
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to question Spock about what he thought of the situation from an ethical pov. Of course there's the obvious evasion that it was bad from a practical pov.
@jpisello
@jpisello Жыл бұрын
But in that case, Spock was making the choice to sacrifice himself for the lives of his shipmates. It could be argued that the First Servant in the SNW episode was too young to make that choice for himself.
@sciencedavedunning3415
@sciencedavedunning3415 Жыл бұрын
America was founded upon the principle of protecting the individual's rights ( to equality ) from the potential happiness of the few.......... How very far......... we have strayed
@michaelhall2709
@michaelhall2709 Жыл бұрын
That was actually Spock quoting John Stuart Mill on the subject of Utilitarianism, which promotes the value of the greatest good for the greatest number of people. It was brought up on another thread in connection with a criticism of “Omelas” made by author N. K. Jemison and others: that those who didn’t approve of the arrangement should have freed the child instead of merely walking away. Which objection, to my mind, totally misreads the point that Le Guin was making - the citizens of Omelas *aren’t* bad people deliberately perpetrating an unjust system. They are, in fact, sensitive to the child’s suffering, and deeply regret it, but have made the moral calculus that any alternative, in terms of overall suffering, would be worse. That’s actually a defensible argument, and one used every day in our world to justify far greater cruelty than that visited upon a single child, and to far less benefit. This is what Le Guin referred to as “the American dilemma” in the story’s introduction, and it gets more pertinent to our own situation with every passing day.
@Thecuriousincident1
@Thecuriousincident1 Жыл бұрын
That Ursula Le Guin story is way more heartbreaking, haven't stopped thinking about it all day. I suppose Star Trek didn't want to go that dark even though the acting on that kid having one moment of fear just before he gets connected was also horrific.
@lewdwig
@lewdwig Жыл бұрын
You’d be hard pushed to find a sci-fi writer who hasn’t been strongly inspired by LeGuin.
@liwojenkins
@liwojenkins Жыл бұрын
You'd be hard pressed to find a writer in the information age with something akin to an original thought. Stealing isn't the same as being inspired. Maybe I'm just too much of a media hound, when I see 1950s western episodes being redone in Star Trek and then find out the Westerns were derivative from pulp dramas in the 1920s, and those were from plays in the 1800s, and on and on. As one wise man once said a long time ago "There is nothing new under the sun."
@Kualinar
@Kualinar Жыл бұрын
You'd need to take books and stories written BEFORE LeGuin wrote most of her work.
@946towguy2
@946towguy2 Жыл бұрын
What about all the sci-fi which came before she was published?
@MrVvulf
@MrVvulf Жыл бұрын
Or Poul Anderson (Hugo Award x7, Nebula Award x3). Any movie, show, or story about an organization that governs or attempts to regulate time travel are all copying Poul Anderson's "Time Patrol" stories, the first of which was published in 1955. Department of Temporal Affairs: Star Trek "Time Cop" (1994) "El ministerio del tiempo" (2015-2020) "Time Cop" comic (1992) The Temps Commission: The Umbrella Academy The Federal Time Bureau: Legends of Tomorrow Time Agency, Time Lords (Dr. Who) and countless other treatments of the concept pioneered by Anderson.
@marcm.
@marcm. Жыл бұрын
The Great age of science fiction, really came in each generation of new writers. But the Giants like Philip k dick, Frederick Brown, Ursula LeGuin, in many others that we don't normally talk about, as well as the ones that we always talk about like Asimov, Arthur c Clarke... The fact is we've had fantastic writers in each generation and sci-fi has been the great exploration... Not of the fantastic worlds, but of the human frailties, flaws, virtues... Ursula was probably the best of them all. Her writing is deep in ways that only the absolute masters of all time have ever managed. And that's saying a lot because we had many and still do in science fiction writing, I'm perfectly okay with stories being repeated in new interesting ways
@Sheriff_Bruce_Lee
@Sheriff_Bruce_Lee Жыл бұрын
Le Guin's Omelas story is the kind of thing meant for a Star Trek episode which makes episodes and societies based entirely on thought experiments all the time. Surprised there wasn't a ToS or TNG episode that does this.
@mikebauer9948
@mikebauer9948 Жыл бұрын
TOS "The Cloud Minders" touches on this. Floating City powered by ore dug by downtrodden miner class. It's a bit tangent to Omelas, but still you can draw comparisons.
@michaelhall2709
@michaelhall2709 Жыл бұрын
@@mikebauer9948Except for not being 1/1000th as good. Execution is everything.
@michaelodonnell824
@michaelodonnell824 6 ай бұрын
Possibly. But when "borrowing" whole cloth from a weaver, the weaver deserves credit. And in this instance, the multi-million dollar behemoth that is Star Trek, REFUSED to give ANY credit to Le Guin...
@russrollins9978
@russrollins9978 Жыл бұрын
Le Guin is an amazing author. I definitely recommend the Earth Sea series and the Hainish Cycle, as well as the novel The Left Hand of Darkness.
@pillmuncher67
@pillmuncher67 Жыл бұрын
In the Earthsea books, we learn that the word for rock (like, what the earth is made of) in True Speech is tolk and that for the sea is inien. Make of that what you will.
@stripeytawney822
@stripeytawney822 Жыл бұрын
The Lathe of Heaven.
@j.s.connolly8579
@j.s.connolly8579 Жыл бұрын
@@stripeytawney822 YES! I LOVE that story AND the original movie of that book.
@j.s.connolly8579
@j.s.connolly8579 Жыл бұрын
@@pillmuncher67 Because AS it is stated in Earth-Sea... "To know the name of something is to RULE the thing!" That's why no one used their REAL Name in public... to keep from being controlled. Like in the Earth-Sea pre-qual short story about "Mr. Underhill" because he lived under a hill... But no one knew that he was REALLY a Dragon in disguise!
@nairbvel
@nairbvel Жыл бұрын
Several lifetimes ago when I was doing my undergrad degree, I took a course titled, "Science Fiction As Literature." TLHoD occupied about half the entire semester and it was like an endless onion -- layer upon layer upon layer. I don't think we ever got all the way down to the bottom because we had other books the prof insisted we had to cover in class, but... wow.
@kenhallermd8897
@kenhallermd8897 Жыл бұрын
I did catch up with the short story after reading about the similarities between it and this SNW episode. In agree with you that this is a case of inspiration rather than adaptation. Indeed, when I first saw this episode, I was reminded of Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery," wherein a small town regularly has a lottery, the "winner" of which is stoned to death, for reasons lost to collective memory but enshrined in tradition. If the lottery were not held, if the child in Omalas were freed, it the First Servant were not connected to the machine, would their communities still thrive? Perhaps, but no one seems to have the courage to find out.
@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146
@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146 Жыл бұрын
One important question is: did James Cameron rip off Ursula Le Guin's story, The Word For World Is Forest, when making Avatar, and the answer to that is...100% yes.
@NeoMorphUK
@NeoMorphUK Жыл бұрын
Wasn’t it a copy of Dances With Wolves? Cameron even admitted that it was Dances With Wolves In Space.
@smartalek180
@smartalek180 Жыл бұрын
AND Heinlein. (Everyone forgets that one!) "I see you"? Came from the lesser-known (but still masterful) Heinlein novel, "Double Star." Cameron appears to be a f**king magpie -- he'll snatch up any bright, shiny object and just squirrel it away til he can find a use for it.
@matthewcourtney261
@matthewcourtney261 Жыл бұрын
I think we all resonate with the “Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach” and “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas” stories is they reflect, indirectly, the way our current society is set up. He who shall not be named referred to the US as the “shining city upon a hill” much like the floating cities in the Star Trek episode, but what children are suffering to support our lifestyle in this shining city? Have an EV car? Some of the minerals used to create the batteries for EVs have major issues with child labor when mined. Don’t have an EV? What about a smartphone? The same minerals are used in batteries for smartphones. This is just one example of an industry with child labor issues. There are many others both known and suspected. As I write this, Republicans are trying to roll back child labor laws that have protected children in the US for over a century. If you live in the developed world, especially if you live in the US, these suffering children should be on your mind everyday, but who among us would be willing to walk away from Omelas?
@DeadDancers
@DeadDancers 29 күн бұрын
Good point. Also, it’s easier to save one child who everyone knows the location of - than hundreds of thousands unknown and far away. Our ‘cities of eternal summer’ provide less paradise but have dug the system that supports it far deeper.
@DutchLabrat
@DutchLabrat Жыл бұрын
"Genre fiction, as Terry Pratchett has pointed out, is a stew. You take stuff out of the pot, you put stuff back. The stew bubbles on.” ― Neil Gaiman
@DutchLabrat
@DutchLabrat Жыл бұрын
Have you read any Discworld? The first two books are a constant riff off of Tolkien, Fritz Leiber, McCaffrey, Mervyn Peake, Lovecraft, Poe..... No dedications whatsoever. Later it got a bit less easy riffing and more substantial social satire (A LeGuin influence!!!) but pTerry never stopped satirising fantasy and SF tropes. LeGuin (who he knew personally) he totally ransacked for ideas and tropes. The development of how pTerry treats gender in the Dwarven community is a playful turnaround of the Left Hand of Darkness, 100% taken from Ursula. (And a reason Discworld and Potterheads don't mix that well anymore :/ ) Go have a look at the brilliant Lspace Annotated Pratchett File :D And Pratchett and Gaiman? They were some kind of hive mind :D and constantly used each others ideas. I have met them both, but never saw them together.......
@yensid4294
@yensid4294 Жыл бұрын
Left Hand of Darkness & The Lathe of Heaven are works by Leguin that are still very memorable for me. The Wizaed of Earthsea is sketchier in my mind for some reason. The Left Hand of Darkness definitely expanded my mind regarding gender binaries & gender roles some 40 odd years ago. It's amazing how relevant that novel is to current events considering when it was written.
@Narfbaatar
@Narfbaatar Жыл бұрын
I feel like a tribute or inspiration is perfectly acceptable, I mean otherwise nobody is allowed to re-interpret works
@jayanderson9375
@jayanderson9375 Жыл бұрын
But is it acknowledged?
@smokedbeefandcheese4144
@smokedbeefandcheese4144 Жыл бұрын
@@jayanderson9375 Does it need to be? At some point whatever you did just becomes part of the genre. You can’t really get mad at somebody from taking ideas from a book that was written multiple decades ago probably
@kennashey
@kennashey Жыл бұрын
@@drewsachs6238 There are no legal ways to enforce that. 99.99% of modern writing is inspired by someone else's work. Christopher Paolini was inspired by JRRTolken, and yes he admits this in interviews but not in his books. George RR Martin is even inspired by others. So was Robert Jordan and lots of other artists. Some admit this, some don't. I say, if it is not breaking actual laws, why should this be a problem? I think this video is about getting views, and creating drama where none should exist. :(
@drachasor
@drachasor Жыл бұрын
I think this episode is honestly one of the stories that shows a weakness in SNW. They spend the entire episode building up to the dramatic reveal (that pretty much anyone could guess long before it's revealed), and basically no time examining it and what it really means to the society. No time discussing how the society might try to extricate itself from this situation and the reasons why they haven't. It's a huge missed opportunity. In fact, it's so focused on drama, that "Tots Drama" must be the 4th pillar of their society, because there's no reason for them to show the ceremony to Pike and act like they'd have no idea how he'd react. They've spent the entire damn episode hiding what's going on exactly because they know the reaction will be bad.
@pjlusk7774
@pjlusk7774 Жыл бұрын
I think this is the wrong way to look at it. On some level, the story is not about the society powered by the forsaken child; it's about how *Pike* reacts to learning about the society powered by the forsaken child. He has lots of reasons to look at this situation and accept the bargain they made; the city is beautiful, Elora is beautiful and (seemingly) kind, their medical technology offers him an escape from the sacrifice he knows he must make. And yet, even with all that, he can't shut down the voice telling him that this child's suffering is *wrong* once he pieces it together. Just because the audience can figure this out before Pike does is no bad thing. Dramatic irony like this is also a way to heighten tension and provide a sense of looming dread, which is what this story does.
@drachasor
@drachasor Жыл бұрын
@@pjlusk7774 except we basically have no time to see his reaction or how he deals with it, because it's the very end of the episode instead of taking real time in the episode for him to demonstrate how he feels and reacts. All there is is shock value even in his reaction. There's just not much substance to that. And it isn't like his reaction tells us anything meaningful about his character or anything else. In fact, it's pretty much the same reaction you'd expect from anyone. All I want is for them to put some work into thoughtful sci-fi, and this fell short quite a bit.
@wimpymcsteel4458
@wimpymcsteel4458 Жыл бұрын
Bingo. That is one of the reasons I am not a fan of this show. The characters do stupid things. They hide a daughter in need of medical treatment instead of actively searching for a way to get the treatment needed. They sleep with an old flame without establishing anything remotely interesting about her. And do not get me started on the whole knowlege of the future thing.
@benroberts2222
@benroberts2222 Жыл бұрын
Glad you mentioned James at the end. The whole concept originates in criticisms of moral consequentialism and anyone familiar with the arguments could easily wrap a setting around such thought experiments; crafting a plot and characters is the part that makes the episode good
@erf3176
@erf3176 Жыл бұрын
I did not know about Le Guin, so upon seeing the episode, I mostly thought of parallels to "The Lottery" by Shirley Jacskson. Your summary did not indicate how the child is chosen in Le Guin story and I quick search on the web did not seem to yield an answer. So maybe it is left ambiguous. But in the Trek episode it is absolutely a lottery. Also, I do not recall the episode giving an explanation as to why another child can't just be plugged into the machine if something happened to the lottery "winner". The implication seems to be that physically any child will make the machine run. But that the system that keeps the public willing to accept the suffering of the child is very delicate and requires the ritualism to keep going. Where it not for the established traditions the city has built around the rituals, more people could start to object and bring the society down. So even in an emergency, where the first servant is replaced last minute due to a kidnapping or assassination, any deviation could devastate the system they have worked out.
@allanolley4874
@allanolley4874 Жыл бұрын
I think (?) it is explicit in the episode that the First Servant has received a bunch of implants and other adjustments over a period of months or years (since birth?) to prepare to be plugged into the machine. So if the child is not available to be plugged in they can't just grab another random child. Although if my entire civilization depended for its existence I'd probably prepare a couple of spare potential first servants in the wings in case something happened to the primary one. So yeah the lack of spares is probably a sign of the complex dance of ritual and lottery.
@erf3176
@erf3176 Жыл бұрын
@@allanolley4874 I'd have to watch it again (only seen once). But I remember the preparation to be more like pampering with the best education and toys and care (fattening a pig for slaughter) and brainwashing, since the ritual involves getting the kid to answer a question to indicate they agree to get hooked up to the machine. Although the one kid doesn't give an answer and his face says he was not really committed to sparkle motion. So the consent is ultimately sought but not needed. The implants that I remember were something that I thought everyone in the city had to regulate their health.
@Mediumreginald
@Mediumreginald Жыл бұрын
You should read it! It’s free online if you search for it and is super short
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
​@@allanolley4874 There is no doubt that Majalan civilization was highly fragile. Cities floating in the sky are more cool than practical.
@EvilGenius815
@EvilGenius815 Жыл бұрын
The more active role of the Ones Who Walk Away in the Trek episode is important to me, because it's what always bothered me about the original story. It never sat with me that they just left, instead of actively trying to do something to help the imprisoned child.
@woongah
@woongah Жыл бұрын
Those are "The ones who got a bullet in the back of their heads", and it is a less poetic story.
@KristopherBel
@KristopherBel Жыл бұрын
This is something I thought and thought about as a kid when I first read the story, how could they not see how terrible it is? Why don't they try to save the child? And at least for me, I came to think of those that walk away as damaged by their 'perfect' society. so damaged by their culture that they won't try to help the child, that their only thought is to escape for themselves. And it has sat with me, that maybe how you are raised or the society that created you might have such a large effect on you that your morals, your sense of right and wrong becomes twisted. And I think this shows that the child bares the brunt of the abuse, many who see or know about the child are abused on their own way lesser surely, but still abused.
@GeoffLehr
@GeoffLehr Жыл бұрын
You might take a look at N. K. Jemison's "The Ones Who Stay and Fight" - a direct response in that vein to Omelas
@kingbeauregard
@kingbeauregard Жыл бұрын
Agreed. The Ones Who Walk Away have done nothing but absolve themselves of the mess. I think Niemoller would have some words for them.
@allanolley4874
@allanolley4874 Жыл бұрын
The ability to successfully fight for the child implies the ability to break the laws of Omelas, in which case it contradicts the premise that the abuse of the child make the society perfect including presumably perfectly free of crime. Whether such perfection is even coherently imaginable is a hard one. The premise is kind of tricky to make coherent and by giving it mechanics the Star Trek episode makes it possible to imagine ways around the bizarre iron-clad arrangement posited, whether fighting to free the child or creating some non-child torturing technological alternative. Edit: So I went and read the story, Omelas may or not be free of crime (and may or may not have laws) but it is "free of guilt" and letting the child run free would is explicitly described as introducing "guilt" into the city. So the story does indeed premise the impossibility of anyone freeing the child.
@PocketBrain
@PocketBrain Жыл бұрын
Didn't they also do this in the new millennium Doctor Who? The floating city of London on the back of a Leviathan.
@natbarmore
@natbarmore Жыл бұрын
That’s also similar, but is different in a few specific ways. For starters, it’s not a member of the society being sacrificed, it’s an outsider (the space whale). It’s not that the SNW ep has some similarities to Le Guin’s story-it’s that the setup is damn near identical.
@jamarti3
@jamarti3 Жыл бұрын
I think “The Rings of Akhaten” is closer.
@literaterose6731
@literaterose6731 Жыл бұрын
I was checking to see if someone else got there before me-glad you did! Yes, I think Doctor Who’s The Beast Below definitely feels inspired by Those Who Walk Away from Omelas, and I really love it for that. Even with the differences (and there *should* be differences, otherwise it really would be an unauthorized adaptation), it has much of the same emotional punch, the unthinkable “bargain” between the torment of a sentient being and the well being of an entire civilization. The concept of children is worked in very movingly, as the motivation for the whale’s actions. The episode is very Whovian in how it honors Le Guin’s work, since the Doctor often concerns themself with the idea that all sentient beings deserve compassion and care. I’ve never really understood the notion of different creative takes on similar themes being “rip offs”-on the contrary, I think it’s important to explore the meaning of such themes from different perspectives. For me, it deepens understanding.
@shindiru2
@shindiru2 Жыл бұрын
I was reminded of the Controller in the episode Bad Wolf.
@itsOasus
@itsOasus Жыл бұрын
Getting inspiration is never a bad thing. Ursula paid tributes in her own work. If the writers of SNW had straight up taken the story word for word and used it as their own, which would have been very hard for the reasons you identified, then there would have been an issue. A credit in the episode would have been nice though.
@DrewLSsix
@DrewLSsix Жыл бұрын
There's a more on the nose version of this story from Doctor Who, wherein the futuristic city of London is flying through space on the back of an enslaved space whale and the population votes to either keep it enslaved or set it free. And every time they vote to keep it, then erase their memories so they can sleep soundly. In that version the children going missing aren't the ones being imprisoned, they are the ones aware of the horrible truth. Other than the memory thing, and the surprise twist that the missing children weren't the ghastly secret the major difference is that they eventually choose to stop torturing the animal and it turns out that it's far more willing to help by going faster when it's not tortured. I think like many Who stories it's a bit overwrought and lacks subtlety. But the influence is there.
@photoboyjet
@photoboyjet Жыл бұрын
@Oasus It is possible to adapt classic stories into the Star Trek universe. Back in the 70s, the animated Star Trek series adapted Larry Niven's Known Space story, "The Soft Weapon" into a Star Trek episode. They kept Niven's Kzinti (humanoid feline aliens), but substituted Spock for the Puppeteer Nessus. They also credited Niven.
@Rocketsong
@Rocketsong Жыл бұрын
@@photoboyjet Well... Larry adapted his own story, which is why he is credited as the writer. He was friends with DC Fontana, who talked him into providing a story.
@ZharelAnger
@ZharelAnger Жыл бұрын
I am glad that you shared this. But there is so much more. Ursula Le Guin said that she rewrote the story of Khronos, changing the old man who was entrapped by the Watchers with a child because it tugged at the heartstrings more strongly. 'The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas', William James's 'The Moral Philosopher and the Moral Life', as well as Fourier, Bellamy, Morris, Wells, and Dostoyevsky, among many others have reworked the Khronos/Cronos story of the sleeper to comment on current culture. It is a story as timeless as the Suffering Servant. Do haters desire to trash all of the great ancient works and ban them from modern interpretations on the immutable conditions of being? I applaud all of these authors.
@patricklarm5462
@patricklarm5462 Жыл бұрын
Ursula K. Le Guin, my favourite anarchist author.
@tomharrison1393
@tomharrison1393 Жыл бұрын
I've been trying to get my partner into Trek for a year, and strange new worlds is where it finally stuck. We're both neurodivergent. Her reaction to this episode was really something - she hated on Pike for trying to save the kid. "How dare he not respect her culture! He's supposed to be enlightened!" I know her reaction will be well in the minority, but I love that nutrek spawned a series so well written that we can talk philosophy over each episode.
@John_Stephens43
@John_Stephens43 Жыл бұрын
Starship Captains, like paramedics/er staff, should never say "it'll be/it's been quiet/slow/uneventfull." That's a sure fire way for things to get set off into a massive hellscape of chaos. Now, I would be inclined to say that the episode feels more like a homage to Le Quin's story Those Who Walk Away. Even if the writers of Star Trek SNW had taken the story beat for beat, the perspective is vastly different. In the Those Who Walk Away, we are given the information from a resident of Omelas, whereas in the episode our perspective is that of the crew of the Enterprise. I don't know, that's just how I see it.
@davidbowman271
@davidbowman271 Жыл бұрын
The Original Series ripped off Robert Heinlein's Puppet Masters novel in the episode where flying creatures would attach themselves on the backs of humans and control them. Kirk's brother was in this episode and died due to these creatures.
@willmfrank
@willmfrank Жыл бұрын
It can be argued that "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" kinda-sorta ripped off Heinlein's "Orphans of the Sky" as well.
@stevetaylor5290
@stevetaylor5290 Жыл бұрын
@@emsleywyatt3400 The Brain Eaters is itself an uncredited adaption of Puppet Masters though. Puppet Masters is patient zero for this trope
@mikebauer9948
@mikebauer9948 Жыл бұрын
@@willmfrank I think the old TV series, "The Starlost" from Harlan Ellison is more closely conforming to "Orphans of the Sky" than "FTWIHAIHTTS." Interesting that it ("Starlost") was made without anyone going after Ellison, but the producers of "The Terminator" settled Ellison's suit accusing them that they ripped off his "Outer Limits" story, "The Soldier," which I think was even more distantly related to Terminator than anything described here, and itself could be said to be descended from H.G. Wells' "The Time Machine" for out-of-time travellers who sacrifice their presents for a better futures. Heinlein himself, in his stories, sometimes made this "borrowing" explicit with characters saying variants of, "writers just file the serial numbers off an old story and submit it as new."
@davidanderson4091
@davidanderson4091 Жыл бұрын
Never knew about this before I saw the episode, but I had just re-read a compendium of Le Guin's short stories, _"The Wind's Twelve Quarters"_ a few weeks earlier and so it didn't take me long to realize that the story was very reminiscent of _"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"_ . This wouldn't even be the first time one of Le Guin's stories inspired Trek - her Hanish series novel _"The Left Hand of Darkness"_ was a direct inspiration for the Next Generation 5th season episode _"The Outcast"_ and from that series her _"Law of Cultural Embargo”_ is pretty much the root inspiration for the Federation's General Order 1: The Prime Directive.
@JDHutchison
@JDHutchison Жыл бұрын
I saw LeVar Burton read a short story live here in Portland about 5 years ago. That short story was by Ursula K Le Guin. That is all.
@mikeoyler2983
@mikeoyler2983 Жыл бұрын
What about in Salem, O? ; )
@Jehayland
@Jehayland Жыл бұрын
And that is more than enough 🖤
@jayanderson9375
@jayanderson9375 Жыл бұрын
I’d love to see / hear that!
@logiciananimal
@logiciananimal Жыл бұрын
One of the things I missed in Voyager and some of DS9 and TNG (and of course ENT) was the "poetry titles" that TOS and TAS used. I haven't caught SNW yet, but I am pleased to see that tradition is back!
@patriciamercer7632
@patriciamercer7632 Жыл бұрын
I think it's funny the fact that no one knows where the copying versus stealing quote comes from, is probably because everyone who said it was "stealing" the quote from someone else
@scaper8
@scaper8 Жыл бұрын
I kind of hope whomever did coin it, did so anonymously _specifically_ so know could know where it actually came from.
@r.russellkingsr.2296
@r.russellkingsr.2296 Жыл бұрын
It's Mark Twain he said: "There is no such thing as an original idea." He argues we can turn old ideas into new, curious combinations, but he reckoned they are “the same old pieces of colored glass that have been in use through all the ages.”
@allanolley4874
@allanolley4874 Жыл бұрын
I mean strictly maybe no one knows for absolute sure but Quote Investigator Dot Com has an article on it and they do really good work, so you can learn a great deal about who said things like that quote over the years and how it came to be attributed to various people. Reading it TS Eliot did actually write in a 1920 essay "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal" and that may be the earliest instance of that sort of sentiment, As Abraham Lincoln said "There are a lot of badly attributed quotes on the internet." 😉 Luckily there are also some good ways to look them up on the internet.
@rmsgrey
@rmsgrey Жыл бұрын
@@r.russellkingsr.2296 Henry Fielding said that the antient [sic] authors were a commons upon which all modern writers could draw at will.
@GodelFishbreath
@GodelFishbreath Жыл бұрын
@@rmsgrey Lequin is not ancient enough .
@AlexGreeneHypnotist
@AlexGreeneHypnotist Жыл бұрын
Bear in mind one terrifying similarity between three characters. This episode was all about three people who were destined to live out their lives stuck in a big chair.
@deepstonecostco
@deepstonecostco Жыл бұрын
I'm torn. I definitely feel like it maybe doesn't *rip off* the story but it definitely lifts heavily from it, specifically the components of the suffering child kept in the dark below the city, the festival, etc. But did it also expand on in the context of SNW's characters and arching themes of self-sacrifice, destined pain, and such? Totally and that adds a different nuance that the original story didn't have for obvious reasons. I'm just not sure, it still doesn't entirely sit well with me... I think I would've at least liked a credit footnote or something saying "inspired by" or "in memory of LeGuin" or something that would've fended off these discussions of plagiarism etc etc
@gaileverett
@gaileverett Жыл бұрын
I would have liked to see a credit of some sort, too, not because of "plagiarism" which is nonexistent, but simply because I loved Le Guin so much.
@thing_under_the_stairs
@thing_under_the_stairs 9 ай бұрын
LeGuin *was* mentioned in the credits. Go back for a closer look! ;)
@normative
@normative Жыл бұрын
Something I didn't really appreciate until watching this video's recap is how vital the subplot with M'Benga's daughter is to making the whole story work. The Omelas thought experiment is only really interesting if the sacrifice of the child involves a tradeoff that is *understandable* even if it's not morally acceptable. The problem is that life in the Federation, at least on the core/home planets, is *already* generally depicted as pretty utopian, and they seem willing to share non-military tech and resources with other already-advanced species. But against that backdrop, the Omelas tradeoff doesn't seem like a genuine moral quandary: A society that tortures a kid to make already incredibly comfortable and wealthy people like 2% better off is not making some appalling but comprehensible tradeoff; they're just irredeemable sadists. You couldn't sell it as something otherwise decent-seeming people are able to rationalize. The M'Benga subplot drives home that, idyllic as it might normally seem, there's still plenty of disease and death and suffering there that the people on Majalis avoid. Which pushes the Majalan society back into the realm of "interesting moral quandary" rather than just making them cartoonishly monstrous. At least if you don't think about it too hard, since it's implied the Majalans *could* share their medical tech with the Federation if they wanted, and that at least some of it would work without the whole child torture machine. But shh, never mind that.
@tomharrison1393
@tomharrison1393 Жыл бұрын
It's interesting - M'Benga is stuck on the wrong side of the Majalen's own general order one. To me both civilisations are applying general order one to prevent less advanced civilisations misapplying advanced technology - they can't ensure the tech isn't misapplied unless the other civilisations _share their morals_. The federation's test is "can you work together well enough as a civilisation to crack this incredibly difficult scientific task". The majelans one is "can you live here, where none of us suffer except one willing sacrifice, and accept our solution to the trolley problem as valid". It is a valid solution, just not a humanly popular one.
@GodelFishbreath
@GodelFishbreath Жыл бұрын
@@tomharrison1393 I thought that the sacrifice of that child is what makes the medicine work, and that they did not want to share with people who would would not sacrifice on their own but would instead condemn them
@markfromnu5271
@markfromnu5271 Жыл бұрын
"...irredeemable sadists."
@Aucald
@Aucald Жыл бұрын
Sometimes I think people confuse tropes with entire concepts, and this is the case with Strange New Worlds' "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach." Le Guin didn't really pioneer the trope of "Powered by a Forsaken Child" that both her short story and the SNW episode operate on - you can trace this trope all the way back to mythology across a variety of different belief systems and religions. I don't think creative use of a literary trope really requires an explicit "inspired by" or "based on" acknowledgement, personally speaking - so Robin Wasserman and Bill Wolkoff don't really need to thank Le Guin specifically, just as Le Guin doesn't need to thank the individual historians who preserved ancient mythology. Now if more specific elements of Le Guin's work were employed I'd say my view would change, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. The two stories stand well enough on their own, in my view, and in many ways tell a different story despite sharing a core similarity.
@scaper8
@scaper8 Жыл бұрын
I do agree that "rip-off" or other such terms go too far. But this really does raise the question, "How close is too close to no longer only be 'inspired by' a previous work?" It may be a semantics thing mostly, but it does have legitimate repercussions insofar as things like crediting and citing previous creators and remuneration and compensation for the use of that work. I don't know where that line lies. It's a tricky situation, only compounded by all the times that big companies do this very thing to be able to "use" a work without paying for the "rights" to use the work.
@secretpandalord
@secretpandalord Жыл бұрын
There's a line from John Hodgman's book More Information Than You Require that has always stuck with me: "Ideas are not property, they are infections. They have no allegiance to their host body: they pass from brain to brain untraceably, or simply break out spontaneously, separated by continents or even centuries, without explanation." I always try to keep it in mind during conversations like this. No idea is truly original; our creativity comes from combining ideas into new forms. The only "ripping off" is repeating combinations that have already been tried.
@OsirisMalkovich
@OsirisMalkovich Жыл бұрын
I think most of the best episodes of _Trek_ from across all of its series and movies are variations on existing sci-fi stories. It's not stealing to explore an idea someone else already examined.
@GrannyGamer1
@GrannyGamer1 Жыл бұрын
It's an important thought piece. And we do benefit from the suffering of children.
@jipillow1
@jipillow1 Жыл бұрын
This feels like a trolley car with extra steps
@Jinto021
@Jinto021 Жыл бұрын
Le Guin was an amazing author. Her works still to this day help me cope with some of the harsh realities of life. Steve to you, I recommend, the poem “The Valley”. It’s one of the best things ever put to paper and I still get choked up reading it aloud. Cheers buddy.
@steveglover6411
@steveglover6411 Жыл бұрын
Just read it and it’s almost hypnotic. But I don’t feel like I understand it, and then I wonder if that’s somehow the point.
@leafandlore
@leafandlore Жыл бұрын
When I watched the episode I had never heard of the Omelas story and Le Guin has only ever been in my periphery.. To me, the story seemed really parallel to present day arguments against gun laws in the US. "Thoughts and prayers for the children who suffer but there's simply nothing we can do." Based on your summary and quotes from Omelas, I get the same vibe but in a much broader sense of a general criticism of our capitalistic system-- we all know that people suffer under the weight of it but "obviously it's better this way because of all the prosperity afforded to the rest of us" (quotes because it's not my opinion). For me, it was both interesting thought experiment and horrifying commentary on our current reality.
@turbopokey
@turbopokey Жыл бұрын
People/children will still die no matter what political system is followed, so better to have the maximum amount of personal freedoms rather than being enslaved under the yolk of tyranny that “tries” to keep everyone safe. It’s not possible.
@st.anselmsfire3547
@st.anselmsfire3547 Жыл бұрын
The Ones Who Walk Away From Omalas was hugely influential. It's to the point where there's an entire entry on TVtropes, "Powered By A Forsaken Child." I'm not really sure if it counts anymore. It's like saying that all space opera sci-fi is a ripoff of Forbidden Planet. That being said, JK Rowling definitely ripped off Le Guin with the wizard school, but that's a whole other issue.
@willhennessy864
@willhennessy864 Жыл бұрын
I mean, if you're gonna "steal," steal from the best, right? But I actually think that this isn't a case of theft so much as conscious, genuine homage to LeGuin. I'm glad you mentioned The Dispossessed up front because as soon as it was revealed that Prospect VII was a colony world, I got serious Dispossessed vibes as well. So it's like, what if Omelas but Dispossessed but Star Trek?
@PocketBrain
@PocketBrain Жыл бұрын
I saw the video title and automatically knew which TNG episode he was referring to. Time for me to finish reading the Hainish cycle. Seriously, at the very least, read *The Left Hand of Darkness* .
@LeChaunce
@LeChaunce Жыл бұрын
SNW, not TNG.
@Krolose_hill
@Krolose_hill Жыл бұрын
I also jumped to that conclusion, but tbf the similarities between The Left Hand of Darkness and Outcast run somewhat less deep.
@PocketBrain
@PocketBrain Жыл бұрын
@@Krolose_hill the use of the world "pervert" for a member of their race expressing only one gender made me think it was a deliberate reference. In each case, the story itself was less important than the exploration of humanity and gender.
@PocketBrain
@PocketBrain Жыл бұрын
Also, didn't they steal Spock's brain in TOS to run an idyllic city? Which predates the Omelas story.
@natbarmore
@natbarmore Жыл бұрын
That’s…not the same premise or storyline.
@thod8820
@thod8820 Жыл бұрын
​@@JAMESLEVEE I think the idea of that episode was more about class disparity which is relevant and certainly a way to read this story, where I feel that here it's more specifically about whether the needs of the many justify the sacrifice of a unconsenting few.
@pillmuncher67
@pillmuncher67 Жыл бұрын
If you haven't read The Left Hand of Darkness you haven't lived.
@mkang8782
@mkang8782 Жыл бұрын
So, the comment about Pike getting a peek was an unintended reference to the "Pike's Peak" memes about his hair...or was it?
@glenbe4026
@glenbe4026 Жыл бұрын
For me, I believe Omelas did inspire the episode, but I feel there is a fundamental point of difference in the two that changes the entire dynamic of the premise, which I feel most people are ignoring. The Enterprise Crew. They are outsiders who are there to function as Judge, Police, Executioners. Le Guin's story is about the natives of Omelas and the reader judging the morality of the situation. The Star Trek episode is about the Enterprise Crew & the writers judging the morality of the situation.
@maximedervaux2367
@maximedervaux2367 Жыл бұрын
I once translated the same concept from LeGuin into a RPG scenario. The players didn't know the short story beforehand and that put them into the position of choosing what to do. I think this kind of story is even better when they are translated into interactive media (RPG, videogame or similars), that gives weight to the moral dilemma when the public doesn't only observe it, but partakes in it.
@thescifiZipacna
@thescifiZipacna Жыл бұрын
Ursula Le Guin is one of my very favourite authors so this episode suffered a bit in my estimation from that. In a "Le Guin did it better!" Kinda way. I still think that, but after a rewatch I did like the episode a bit more. There's a lot it does well. Making the kid a central character we get to know and sympathise with is an obvious choice in expanding the premise and building a narrative. The story the Majalans tell themselves, that the First Servant makes a willing sacrifice for the rest of them that they must honour & be grateful for, doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you consider that the First Servant is chosen at birth & raised his whole life for this. How can that be a real choice? I wouldn't put it among the best of the season but Strange New Worlds set such a high average that it's still a pretty great episode.
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
I agree. It was a good episode but not a great one.
@tomharrison1393
@tomharrison1393 Жыл бұрын
Stretching a 7 page short story to one hour of TV without introducing any more content may seem like an impossible task, but if anyone could, it's the writers for Star Trek Picard.
@user-be2dt8eg2x
@user-be2dt8eg2x Жыл бұрын
I've heard of that story before. What troubled me more was the pilot, which basically reprised "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with the Enterprise crew as the aliens (Klattu). No, there wasn't any Gort, but it's still similar. And foreshadowing this by having Pike watch the old movie doesn't make it more acceptable.
@terrellkirkman2078
@terrellkirkman2078 Жыл бұрын
"Who Actually is Captain Sisko's Greatest Nemesis?" I feel like everyone will say Dukat or Winn, but IMHO it's himself. Ben fighting against the will of the Prophets and his sacrificing his Starfleet ethics? Ben Sisko is his own worst enemy.
@isaganipalanca8803
@isaganipalanca8803 Жыл бұрын
I think that U. K. LeGuin, a titan of science fiction and moral visionary, would welcome this episode disseminating her vital message to a new audience. The SNW episode was very well done, took up Leguin's motif and ran away with it with excellent results. I only wish U.K. LeGuin had lived long enough to write a story about the society the ones who walk away from Omelas had built... now that would be a challenge! Thanks for a great segment and the U.K. LeGuin appreciation, Steve!
@1monki
@1monki Жыл бұрын
If a show were created to examine the everyday life in the Federation, Le Quin is one of the few people who I think could've done it justice. Most writers only add more technology to their everyday life and leave it at that. No real thought about how motivations and experiences might change in a different milieu with different adaptation structures
@shibolinemress8913
@shibolinemress8913 Жыл бұрын
Omelas spelled backwards is Salemo, which is of course very close to Salem (of witch trials fame). Yet it's semitic root means "peace", as the Arabic "salaam" and Hebrew "shalom" show. That was also the root of King Solomon's name, the wisest king in the Bible. The Bible tells the story of how Solomon decided the case of two women who came to him, both claiming to be the mother of the same infant boy. In order to reveal by their reactions which one loved the boy most (and thus presumably was the real mother), he acted as though he'd decided to kill the baby, but then awarded him to the woman who was willing to do whatever it took to save him. So, perhaps Le Guin played on the double-edged sword of the historical and religious connotations of the word Salem, while also invoking a kind of reverse symmetry that invites us to see ourselves as in a mirror. Or then again, maybe my weird penchant for spelling things backwards is running away with me...
@justinsheppherd1806
@justinsheppherd1806 Жыл бұрын
It's a very good point that, while the story obviously takes inspiration from Le Guin, nothing is wholly original. Inspiration is a chain that goes back forever. Also, while the SNW story does put Pike in a position where he has to make the moral decision form the short story, it also has other things to teach him that aren't in Le Guin. Lessons like there are some things worse than his apparent fate, and also, in the context of that fate, that there are things he can't control, that he can't fix.
@normanbuchwald
@normanbuchwald Жыл бұрын
There's also been criticisms of the character of Una ripping off DC Fontana as well (at least not attributing back to her) and of course, going back to the days of Voyager, "Blink of an Eye" ripping off "Dragon's Egg," and I think the differences are enough (well, I think the episode "Ghosts of Ilyria" should have added a note at the end "In Memory of DC Fontant" myself, but that's just my opinion). We can also look at many pop culture movies, etc. and their similarities such as Woody Allen's "Blue Jasmine" which is obviously at least a homage to Tennessee Williams' "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." As someone who has taken Master courses in Post Modern Literature, common syncretic allegories and references and sources to find and discover are very, very common nowadays than ever before (back in the day it was more truly public domain to the bible, legends, myths, fairy tales, etc.). While I have a few issues with this episode, it's not "oh my, ripping off Ursual Le Guin." Actually, the 9th episode may have even more callbacks to the Alien/Ripley universe, but again, this is a common trend in postmodern storytelling. As always when it is truly plagiarism, etc. but none of the examples I just mentioned do that. Mollie and the Old Man KZfaqrs may always complain about this, but I understand enough what's going on. It's more who does it better when they do this, of course. :)
@simonpeteradkins
@simonpeteradkins Жыл бұрын
"Blink of An Eye" and "Dragon's Egg" are both preceded by Ted Sturgeon's "Microcosmic God" from the early 1960's.
@starclone4
@starclone4 Жыл бұрын
That episode was very hard for me to get through... I hope, that I'd be one of the people to leave the city. I just don't believe I could live a life of joy, while an innocent child suffers !!!! It would eat my soul up...
@coltaine503
@coltaine503 Жыл бұрын
I have loved Le Guin's writing for many years. Along with the people Le Guin credits for her inspiration there is another short story with a the germ of the idea in it. Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery".
@jezhunt8394
@jezhunt8394 Жыл бұрын
To be fair, the Emperors Golden Throne in Warhammer 40,000 heavily drew on this idea in the 80s too
@floriangunzer6244
@floriangunzer6244 Жыл бұрын
Very good analysis and excellent ending, Steve
@sebastianucero7535
@sebastianucero7535 Жыл бұрын
This is also a very notorious and most famous thought experiments in philosophy: "The Trolley Problem" It states: "A train is barreling down a track at five people. You’re in position to throw a switch, diverting the train to another track where it would only hit one person. So here’s your choice: Should you let the five people die, or make an active choice to kill the one person?"
@rpscorp9457
@rpscorp9457 Жыл бұрын
Everyone has to go in that case, including any witnesses.
@seraphonica
@seraphonica Жыл бұрын
Omelas always reminds me of the Gadsden flag, commonly seen flying from the houses in my area. "Don't tread on me," it reads. But being familiar with the people who live in those houses, I sadly know to add the parenthetical "go tread on that neighborhood I wouldn't dream of living in instead."
@Buzzcook
@Buzzcook Жыл бұрын
I was in a production of Omelas in Portland OR. back in the 80s. Got to meet Le Guin a few times. She was a pleasant and gracious lady. In retrospect I don't think the production was that successful because too much had to be explained to the audience. But it was fun. Oh and Dovstoevsky.
@rynfiaryn
@rynfiaryn Жыл бұрын
This also reminds me of the real life child goddesses of Nepal, the Kumari. While they don't necessarily suffer, they also aren't given a choice, and as soon as they hit puberty, they are no longer considered devine and have to figure out how to live like normal people after having been worshipped their whole lives.
@jvlentini
@jvlentini Жыл бұрын
I find that stray baseball or softball with the Star Trek ships distracting. As a possible solution, you could get a borg cube, similar size and place them next to each other and it would look nice geometrically.
@Doug-lw5gf
@Doug-lw5gf Жыл бұрын
The baseball is a sign that Steve will be back next month.
@williamblakehall5566
@williamblakehall5566 Жыл бұрын
For a relatively quick, easy, and rewarding introduction to Le Guin, I highly recommend The Lathe of Heaven. I take it as a deceptively simple-seeming play on the fairy tale of the fisherman's wife, and having read it I have found myself reflecting back on it often over the years. They've tried to adapt it a couple of times, but the very first one by PBS, starring a young Bruce Davison as George Orr, probably remains the best.
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
It's a very Philip K Dick sort of story.
@charlestaylor3195
@charlestaylor3195 Жыл бұрын
I consider The Lathe of Heaven the best. I saw the original airing on PBS that they changed afterward because it featured the Beatles music without their permission. I feel like I stand alone, it's part of my DNA now, and nobody knows what I'm talking about.
@alanpennie
@alanpennie Жыл бұрын
@@charlestaylor3195 It's not one of her better known stories and it was quite a surprise when PBS adapted it.
@JCIce007
@JCIce007 Жыл бұрын
If Harlan Ellison had written 'Omelas (and was still alive) he would have sued for a credit.
@Vader47000
@Vader47000 Жыл бұрын
I think any beef with the episode isn't that it was done, but the degree to which the original Le Guin story was or wasn't listed in the credits, based on specific story points that elevate the subject from philosophical musings to a specific expression of the idea. For instance, the TOS episode Arena has basically an adaptation of an earlier story, and was credited as such, even though the Trekness of it made it distinct from the original story. Drawing inspiration from the specific Le Guin story without crediting it, and then falling back on justifying it by saying it was drawing upon the same themes she did and just a coincidence, or that it's OK to rip her off because she was drawing upon earlier works (which still begs the question of the degree to which the writers of the specific episode were aware of what influenced Le Guin) seems like a deception.
@danieljames1868
@danieljames1868 Жыл бұрын
I think my favorite take on the tale of Omelas is The Scholomance series by Naomi Novik, because (scholomance spoilers below) It features the daughter of one who walked away from an Omelas grabbing a metaphorical gun in one hand and metaphorical brick and mortar in the other, and walking ominously back in.
@deanthemachine7489
@deanthemachine7489 Жыл бұрын
Now do the episode that “homages” Aliens but with the Gorn instead of the Giger Xenomorph
@willmfrank
@willmfrank Жыл бұрын
...And did any other "Babylon 5" fans out there think that the kid being plugged into the Great Machine thingy was kinda like that Minbari dude (Draal, played by John Schuck) being plugged into the Great Machine on Epsilon III? Remember the words of Robin Bailes: "It's not theft; it's referencing."
@kohakuaiko
@kohakuaiko Жыл бұрын
Even the color scheme matches (but with more light)
@jamesbuckingham9800
@jamesbuckingham9800 Жыл бұрын
Personally I think the safest and most respectful thing to do would have been to give Le Guin co-author credit. Yes there are sub-plots, characterisation and general fleshing out and the episode writers certainly did enough to justify their own credits but the core of the story comes from Le Guin's work, the rest is decoration rather than any new twist on the idea so I'd say this goes beyond mere "inspiration". As for the legal precedents, you get all kinds of odd judgements in plagiarism cases (the world of popular music is full of them). Maybe it depends on how well known you think the Le Guin story is (Steve suggests very - I'm not sure). I was familiar enough to recognise that this was a retelling without having actually read the original but I have no idea how typical that is of the audience in general.
@alinaisyou
@alinaisyou Жыл бұрын
Since this was also supposedly based on an unused Roddenberry script, I wonder when said script was written and who Roddenberry was influenced by.
@susanscott8653
@susanscott8653 Жыл бұрын
I know you are referring to this precise script, but in creating Star Trek, Roddenberry appears to have been inspired by Horatio Hornblower, Master and Commander, Forbidden Planet, Wagon Train...and who knows what else. Without those inspirations, we might not have Star Trek at all. 🤔...😕
@kevsnoop81
@kevsnoop81 Жыл бұрын
Yo this was good! I just happened upon your channel but I'm glad I watched this! That episode was definitely one of the best but thanks for introducing me to that short story from which it was inspired. I'll be looking for more work by that author. I'm a trekkie first but love good sci-fi. But I also appreciate good art and that short story was a good one. Thanks bro.
@williamkarbala5718
@williamkarbala5718 Жыл бұрын
Sacrificing a child so the greater whole can thrive is common fixture in many stories, Steinbeck's; The Pearl, the Saint George myth, lots mythology and even history built around child sacrifice.
@brendanm720
@brendanm720 Жыл бұрын
I admit to -- while watching the episode -- turning to my wife and saying "This reminds me of an Ursula K LeGuin story". I'm glad I wasn't the only one. 😀
@noelleggett5368
@noelleggett5368 Жыл бұрын
Le Guin has long been influential in the most thought-provoking examples of sci-fi on the screen. Star Trek: The Next Generation’s episode ‘The Chase’ centres around the crew’s discovery of fragmentary DNA evidence that all humanoid species are descended from a single species, who ‘planted’ their DNA throughout the galaxy. This concept is the same as Ursula Le Guin’s ‘Hainish Cycle’ of novels and stories, which comprises the majority of her science fiction genre writing. Avatar was partly inspired by (i.e.ripped off) Ursula Le Guin’s ‘The Word for World is Forest’, a haunting novel featuring humans trying to mine (i.e destroy) a planet populated by humanoids living in and having a psychic connection with the forest.
@andrwblood9162
@andrwblood9162 Жыл бұрын
I love that people get into a craze about this stuff. Last week I saw a review of the Enterprise episode 'Dawn' and how many say it's a rip off of Enemy Mine. And if that's true and this episode is a rip off Le Guin too, then the first Star Trek pilot is a rip off of Forgotten Planet! This isn't the critique that people think it is. It's just how writing works.
@joekilker6373
@joekilker6373 Жыл бұрын
Despite having a crush on Lindy Booth since Jett Jackson, I think I must've fallen asleep before this episode ended, because I can't recall that horrible ending (my despairing wife would sometimes not wake me, and in my torpor, and due to not being entirely sold on the series, I guess I didn't go back for a recap). That reminds me of the denouement of Torchwood's Children Of Men, though, which may also owe something to Omelas.
@michaelhall2709
@michaelhall2709 Жыл бұрын
Only “Omelas” isn’t properly a story at all, but more a parable, or thought experiment, or mediation, on the way we live our lives; as opposed, perhaps, to the way we should be living them. As such, the SNW episode, which for better or worse IS an actual story, cannot be said to be a ripoff. I’m more interested in the question of what LeGuin, who I was privileged to meet some years ago, would have thought of it as art. As a world-famous genre author who liked Trek (she wrote an appreciation of TNG for TV Guide as it was ending its run), I suspect that she would have enjoyed it, but who knows?
@weirdkitty07
@weirdkitty07 Жыл бұрын
Maye SNW should acknowledge her in any new credits. a starship Le Guin, a starship EarthSea.
@EdKy101
@EdKy101 Жыл бұрын
Out of all the new Trek, Strange New World's is hands down the best of the bunch.
@kaitlyn__L
@kaitlyn__L Жыл бұрын
I love that you brought up how it’s a classic utilitarian thought experiment. Many writers have used it as a jumping off point. That said, a story credit, or at least a special thanks, for LeGuin would’ve been nice to see. The very end had me cackling as well, Gene absolutely loved plagiarising (but not Gene L Coon!)
@jondorsey2043
@jondorsey2043 Жыл бұрын
Great episode. You keep getting better and better at this.
@pheverdream5618
@pheverdream5618 Жыл бұрын
It was a nice adaptation of Le Guin's story. I just wish there had been some kind of acknowledgement for her.
@geekydee
@geekydee Жыл бұрын
The One Who Walk Away from Omelas is more of an Outer Limits episode than a Star Trek episode...
@darkonc2
@darkonc2 Жыл бұрын
Once (back in the pre 'net days of BBSes) someone asked "What would you do if the couple in the apartment above yours had a *really noisy* bed?" Somebody answered "I'd just oil the bed." "That's silly," I thought. "It's not your bed -- You'd be interrupting the couple upstairs." Then, I let my imagination wander and wrote a short story (4-5 pages, I guess) about how that interaction would work -- complete with inside jokes and transporting characters from the community into the story. My story won an award for the best post of the year, even thought *everybody **_also_** knew about the interaction that it was sourced from.* In fact, the fact that everybody knew about the source of the premise of the story probably made it that much more interesting. You could probably start with the premise of "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas and create *dozens* of stories -- each one being quite distinct from all the others.
@josephmichael1045
@josephmichael1045 Жыл бұрын
I think the way Torchwood: Children of Earth twisted this trope was fun
@maxpeterson8616
@maxpeterson8616 Жыл бұрын
If I recall correctly, Pike believes he will die, not end up in a blinky chair. The thing about LeGuin's story and the adaptation is the question is not whether we would walk away. We (and, as hinted, members of the federation) are residents of Omelas.
@EdInDC
@EdInDC Жыл бұрын
Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness is one of my favorite books, I let a few years pass before I go back and read the book again. Her style, her worlds are unique in the SciFi genre.
@jayanderson9375
@jayanderson9375 Жыл бұрын
And Lequin was probably, ‘inspired’ by The Lottery, Shirley Jackson
@GrandNagusEli
@GrandNagusEli Жыл бұрын
Maybe but I find the themes and idea in The Lottery to be vastly different.
@stevetheduck1425
@stevetheduck1425 Жыл бұрын
The details common to many 20th century SF stories are a language that can be traced backwards through pulp magazines and novels back to John Carter of Mars (originally written as a western), the Story Magazines like 'Blue Book' and 'The Argosy' that published so many adventure tales in the late 19th century and then further back to the early 19th century as 'penny dreadfuls' sensational papers, much like comic books later, which publicised Wild West stories, Horror tales and weird incidents. Details: a gun in a crime or gangster pulp magazine was often a 'blaster', a word later adapted for SF. A 'beamer' can be either a weapon or a communications device back then. SF of the 1920s used mystery rays (suggested by 'X-Rays') to do many things, not least 'deflectors', 'attractor and pressor rays', and both 'shields and screens' against other types of rays, including weapons (perhaps first in the stories by E. E. 'Doc' Smith's 'Skylark' and later 'Lensman' stories.
@francoislacombe9071
@francoislacombe9071 Жыл бұрын
I know of two other Trek episodes that have "riped off" a great work of SF. The first is the TOS episode Arena, which is remarkably similar to a 1944 short story by Fredric Brow also titled Arena. The other is the Voyager episode Blink of an Eye, which has striking similarities with the 1980 novel Dragon's Egg, by Robert L. Forward. The first rip off was unintentional, the writer independantly came up with the same idea, the similarities were noticed soon before filming the episode was to begin, the production team reached out to Brown who was happy to let the episode be made in exchange for a mention of his name and story in the credits, which was done. The other, well, nobody knows for sure, except for those directly involved, because nobody ever made a statement, official or otherwise, about it. Both work of literature are outstanding in their own right, I strongly recommend you look them up.
@chrisryland
@chrisryland Жыл бұрын
where can I got a DS9 Niners Cap from?
@agent_meister477
@agent_meister477 Жыл бұрын
A lot of things are inspired by something else: The Lion King is Hamlet, but in the African savannah; Titanic is Romeo and Juliet, but on the eponymous ship. Superman's origin is the story of Moses. These pieces of media have been acclaimed to varying degrees and hardly, if ever, derided for the fact that they have been inspired by something else. And it's not like Kurtzman was trying to cover anything up.
@NewMitchell-wh3fj
@NewMitchell-wh3fj 4 ай бұрын
That story is particularly suited to Star Trek because it's core philosophical principle is whether it's better to take a sure deal with horrific conditions, or if it's better to try for something better, even knowing you will fail. The Federation does exist on the suffering of many, but it *tries* to avoid it. They want a world where noone suffers unduly. And it's unachievable. But that pursuit is worthwhile in and of itself, and in Star Trek is often the core of our protagonist's ideology. Idealism vs Utilitarianism
@camerartus
@camerartus Жыл бұрын
I remember reading this story in the 90's! I had wondered if this episode had been taken from it because I recognized the theme while I watched it.
@michaelemory552
@michaelemory552 Жыл бұрын
Another Le Guin work likely tapped for aspects of story is ‘The Word for World is Forest’. Film ‘Avatar’ is similar to this and another by Le Guin (?) in which the main character is a young, human girl in deep empathy with forest environment under seize.
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