One of my personal favs. A slow burn but really thematic, emotional and horny. Such a horny movie.

I don't really think of the Borg being involved personally. As for the movie at large, I really enjoy it conceptually, but I do think it could've been edited down for a bit tighter story without losing the grandeur or mystique of the story. Having said that, I do still enjoy watching the movie. Stay well out there, and God be with you, friend. ✝️ :)

An underappreciated classic that forgoes the whiz bang action spectacle of so many sci-fi films for a thought provoking and meditative journey.

There is NO canon (movie or TV shows are the only canon in Star Trek) that posits the V'ger/Borg connection.

My favorite of all Star Trek movies. The only Star Trek film that feels like it's science fiction first, Star Trek second. The 70s style futurism is beautiful.

Well they did state in TMP that Voyager 6 was presumed lost when it entered a black hole.

Yeah, they do. I forget what it was, but their was a book that tried claiming the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine" was built as a borg weapon, but not only is that a boring answer, there was no reason it was needs to be tied to them and it was supposed to be from outside the galaxy anyway

@@commanderproton7763 Exactly, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion, Spock even says they traced back its path and it came from outside the galaxy. Its right in the episode.

@@commanderproton7763 The book you're referring to is called " Vandetta ". I've read it. Definitely not one of the best ST novels out there.

Well this theory that V'ger and Borg is really old in Star Trek history .And there was a book with the entire Star Trek history from the movies and the shows .Which showed that V'ger might have been the Borg Homeworld .And it was the Star Trek Continuum with all the history and dates in Star Trek .So you should find that now hard to find book ,since it would answer some more querions for you .

Remember when Enterprise-D first encountered the Borg - it was when Q transported the ship to the galaxy M33 - sounds pretty extra-galactic to me.

@@rattywoof5259 He doesm't. _DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years. And are located near the system J two five_ _RIKER:Travel time to the nearest starbase_ _DATA: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five_ _PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy._ Seven thousand lightyears isnothing: M33 is the Triangulum Galaxy, which is 2.73 *million* lightyears . I think you are thinking of that episode _Where No One Has Gone Before_ where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller and breaks the warp barrier

Plus his attitude towards organics clinches it. Also the whole "whole galaxies" recorded also means there should be a rather empty path trailing back.

Not true, Seven of Nine clearly stated on several occasions that the Borg have extra galactic travel experience as well as trans dimensional experience.

@@rattywoof5259 You're mixing up two episodes. Episode 1x06 "Where No One Has Gone Before" is where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller, breaks the warp barrier, and is taken to Galaxy M33, 2,700,000 light years away. Episode 2x16 "Q Who" is where Q transports the Enterprise near System J-25, at least 7,000 light years away from the nearest Federation outpost, and where they encounter the Borg for the first time.

Star Trek IV is such a trip. The opening premise is creepy and mysterious as hell and then the movie turnes around and becomes a great comedy. I'd almost prefer they didn't explore the whale probe since whatever they could come up with would completely destroy the mystery and creepyness.

I don't think THEY even wanted to collect knowledge. They just thought that's what Voyager wanted.

There is a novel, 'Probe' by Margaret Wander Bonanno that does just that. At least, as much as the Probe itself can know and rationalise.

Go read the Trek novel Probe if you haven't already. The end has some juicy bits about that species you'd probably enjoy!

YES !

My feeling is that the machine planet V'ger found is the machine species the synths contact at the end of season 1 of _Picard._ It would explain their godlike power AND why they left as soon as the signal the synths were sending stopped.

The Borg might have been alot different and more primitive when Voyager came in contact with them. Remember it took a considerable amount of time for Voyager to come back so during that time the Borg would have made quite a few technological advancements making their technologies look different. A computer from 2022 looks alot different than one from 1977 so you could imagine how many phases the Borg could of gone through.

@@myrtistaylor5759 sorry for repeating myself, but this! Not enough people consider that the Borg and V'ger may not have created/been created by each other, but maybe they both have a common ancestor so to speak? Why does it have to be so binary?

Sorry folks, Q introduced the Borg to humanity. He made no mention or connection between the Borg, humans, and, V'ger.

@@machinebeard1639 wrong. They knew and they were already headed towards the alpha quadrant. All Q did was temporarily speed up the process to show picard their not prepared or properly equipped for what lies ahead. Contact with the Borg was inevitable and the colective already had some humans well before leaving the delta quadrant

That's a great point. I think the only connection the Borg should have with V'Ger is that they would probably either envy it, or consider it to be almost deific. They would have assimilated knowledge of it at Wolf 359 (maybe even earlier), and learned of a machine that united with two organic life forms to complete its purpose. It possibly then achieved perfection, and ascend ... somewhere. How could the Borg not sit up and take notice of that!? Come to think of it, maybe that's part of the reason why they're so interested in the Federation and Earth. They could want to learn everything they can about it to see how this came to pass.

@@irregularassassin6380 I believe there was a book about an ascended V'ger in the far future. Might be related to that God particle the Borg are interested in.

Yes! Such a great book!

I was wondering if anyone else read that series. I really enjoyed it.

​@@walterkeathley i had the audio book as a kid.

Quintessential advice upon meeting a superior force.

That was a bit before the mind meld. That was when they were first pulled into V'ger and decker suggested shooting the tractor beam emitter and spock stated "any show of resistance would be futile"

The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie. It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung. At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective. They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger. So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.

Exactly what I was thinking!

Actually the information it gathered definitely would help them, but they wouldn't have any use for a primitive probe other than the information it carried of species that built it. They wouldn't have any interest in upgrading the probe itself and sending it on its way though.

YES! Thank you! This is exactly what I was expecting them to reveal at the end of ST:Picard. In a show with as many call backs as ST:P, I was 100% certain that this was where they were going with that. There's only ever been one fully synthetic civilization mentioned in Star Trek, and that was the creators of V'Ger. Seemed like a huge missed opportunity.

@@charlesajones77 That's not wholly true, but V'Ger's uplifters were probably the most established. There are two other wholly mechanical "civilizations" (that I can think of). Those being the nanobots Wesley Crusher accidentally uplifted, and the Exocomps. The latter should count because in Lower Decks an Exocomp joined Starfleet and referenced having a father. This likely mans that they are multiplying, and could have a small civilization somewhere. Granted, I think your point still stands. If they had revealed that, it would have gone a long way to saving that season in my eyes.

@@irregularassassin6380 Opening the Pandoras box of both species knowing about humans, and raising the question of why they would want to uplift a human probe?

That was my thought when they were first mentioned in Picard. "There guys are probably the ones that built V'Ger."

Is that what the Synthetics called them in Picard? I forgot.

"Note, Vger said, "machine planet" not "cybernetic planet"." On Picard, aren't the Higher Synthetics supposedly *very* ancient synthetic beings? As far as the Borg, isn't the theory that they started out all machine, but then Decker joined with V'Ger and then the Borg possibly came from that? (So, not so ancient, regardless of whether there is a distinction between machines with artificial intelligence versus cybernetic beings -- though this may be a distinction without a difference.)

@@mmortal03 cybernetic requires both synthetic and organic components. The border are called such because they are cyborgs. Synthetics are do not posess biological components.

It would be poetic for the machine world that encountered V’ger to actually have come across a species that were both scientifically curious, but dying out from a biological plague of some kind, and the machine world entities discovered this species and decided to “rescue” them… saving them from their fate, but creating the Borg in the process.

In Voyager when charity and seven of 9 was inside discovered the mars mission they also discovered material simular to organic metal that could have been from the machine world.

The problem with that theory is that Guinan said the Borg are thousands of centuries old.

@@moon_yeka Yeah, that's what I thought really. It's a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Thanks for letting me know.

That's how I thought it was too glad it's not just me

That was awesome!!! 😂

V'Ger junkion connection, lol

V´ger is not the origin of the Borg I consider it as the orgin of someone very similar to Q.

It was a main plot point of the star trek legacy video game. one of the best str trek games around and published by paramount so lost of ppl think cannon

Yes totally agree. To tie V'ger mystery to the Borg would drain it of all its mythic resonance and cosmic scale, which is what makes it memorable.

Voyager6 was manmade

@@tacheonspeed79er yep, that's the intrinsic connection to humanity I mentioned.

Come on PEOPLE, the BORG originated in the DELTA quadrant. Voyager was launched FROM Earth, with conventional rockets. Even traveling at it's fastest speed, it would have taken CENTURIES to thousands of years at LIGHT Speed. No way could it have been launched, reached the Delta Quadrant, BEEN assimilated by the BORG and sent back towards Earth in the couple of hundred years between launch and Star Trek the Motion Picture. time frame.

@@QuantumRift wormholes

@@brennonbrunet6330 Meh, Voyager didn't wanter into a wormhole, and it wasn't sentinet enogh at that point to even KNOW what a wormhole was, so it could not create the Borg that would have known about wormholes. No, you can't retcon this into the Star Trek Universe.

@@QuantumRift why does an object need to be aware of a wormhole in order to fall into it? The both could have emerged naturally as a byproduct of V'ger iterating on it's own form. Sentience is not needed for either of these things to have happened. Also, I never said that it should be retconned, but rather that I like the admittedly flawed premise.

Interesting although the convoluted mess time travel usually is.

Thanks Todd! I certainly try to make sure I'm always *adding* something to the conversation

The Bootes Void...

Yes I think that V'her would make a snack out of the Borg LoL

That doesn't preclude the possibility that V'ger created the Borg and that they originally had the same mission, but that the Borg's mission was changed or corrupted later on, possibly after V'ger lost contact with them.

@@Mabus16 It does, because V'ger does not formulate the idea to merge with the carbon life forms before such a merge is being suggested, up until then it considers them to be an infestation preventing it from communicating with its creator. Therefore it would have not made any sense for this entity to jump to the solution to merge machine with organics beforehand.

@@dominic.h.3363 Again, how do you know that this didn't occur after whatever entity V'ger created lost contact with V'ger? You're assuming that just because one was created by the other that they couldn't have diverged after being separated.

@@Mabus16 Because superintelligent machines and/or hive minds don't tend to make shit up as they go... and you assigning an attribute to an entity it does not display in canon is just a lazy method to make a cube fit into a circle shaped hole. Almost as lazy as time travel to shape the chain of causality to your liking...

The problem with the Borg is their insatiable desire to multiply through assimilation. As Seven said in the "Friendship One" episode of ST:Voyager, "if the Borg had encountered any Terrestrial technology (prior to Q snapping his fingers at Picard in ST:NG), then the Borg would have taken this calling card as an invitation to assimilate Earth centuries sooner than their first attempt."

doesn't mean that the introduction of assimilating organic matter couldn't have come later. Maybe the machine world became really curious about exploration after meeting V'ger and that's when they started integrating organic matter into their structure? Maybe the best way for the machines to understand these organic makers that their probe friend kept going on about was to assimilate them? Last but not least, pretty sure there is an explicit reference in Voyager about the Borg collective nearly collapsing in the distant past. Technological progress doesn't have to be a linear function.

"V'Ger wishes to join with the creator" later takes on a more literal meaning closer to Borg assimilation, although it manifested itself as a lightshow in TMP.

That is because V'ger became the Borg when it assimilated the Deltan Cre member.

@@BigC073 If you watch Season 1 of TNG, there is an indication that the Borg are already around, Remember they had dropped several throw away lines that Starbases and outposts along the neutral zone were disappearing, which was why the Enterprise was out that way, same with the Romulans, and both sides thought the other was doing it. In the episode the Neutral Zone, Wolf even comments about the outpost looked as though "a great force had come and scooped the outpost off the planet." and wondered how the Romulans pulled it off. The Borg were already in the area, just not ready to go after Earth. Q snapping his fingers if anything, allowed humanity to become aware of a threat in such a way, that the borg wouldn't conclude they needed to make an immediately move on Earth.

Thing is while we don't know what race and exactly when it happened we DO know the origins of the borg. Both Voyager and First Contact gives us hints, they were a race of organic beings like Humanity who began to improve themselves with technology until they became what know as the Borg. While with V'ger trying to explain the mystery of the Machine Civilization that rebuilt the Voyager space probe would completely ruin the atmosphere that movie had going. Not all things need an explanation, and shoe horning two completely incompatible things that only share a minor theme isn't a great idea in my opinion.

so an early version of JJ Abrams mystery box crap. Something that is just there to add to the story.

Which god?

@@shanecarson2337 The only God: the God of Israel, the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ, His Son.

@@Numba003 "The only god" Oh, so money. "israel, bible, jesus" I thought you were being serious. I didn't realise you were meaning plagiarised characters.

@@shanecarson2337 I imagine there are very many people out there that value many things more highly than their money. As for "plagiarised characters," could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that?

@@Numba003 Plagiarism is the stealing of other things and claiming it for oneself/as one's own. The story of virgin birth and miracles and this, that and the other is WAY older than christianity and abrahamism. There is nothing original nor unique in abrahamism.

What about Tan Ru? I feel that the later voyager probes were intended to be purely interstellar or at least Kuiper belt probes, with advances in propulsion leading to high speeds. At any rate there’s no way any of these probes were FTL and the ‘black hole’ that was assumed to have been the demise of Voyager 6 could have been any number of unknown spacial anomalies including a trans warp conduit or an unstable natural wormhole. It’s weird all these prewarp and early warp ships making it across the Galaxy or even outside. The second TOS pilot even has the enterprise doing something that a presumed warp 1 21st century ship did, crossing the galactic barrier.

Personally I'm of the opinion the Q are simply future humans. That's why they "guide" us they're simply ensuring thier own existence.

Either would explain why he focuses on humans rather than Ferengi or Vulcans, say. IF they are the result of Decker and V'Ger fusing, it explains why Q is fascinated with Picard and the Enterprise

Right? I'm baffled so many fans just cant accept they there can be more than one machine species in this massive universe, I don't get the obsession's people have trying to connect them. Plus like you said the mystery is half the fun.

Thank you Ricardios!

Star fleets designation for federation headquarters is sector zero zero one. It’s not that deep.

LOL !!

Perfect 🥰

That theory isn't any better than the V'ger one. It has the same arguments against it.

I always assumed N.O.M.A.D. and V'Ger had related origins. Although, if they don't, it's a fascinating example of convergent evolution in synthetic lifeforms. If everything keeps evolving into crabs, maybe all space probes evolve into super-powerful information-hungry death-bots?

@@irregularassassin6380 Hmmmm. Plausible, and interesting.

it be a great concept to tie things together with a nice bow. but umm yeah not gonna happen.

@@RandomTrek84 I mean why are we actively trying to the make the Startrek Universe smaller? Why cant there just be multiple machine races in this massive fictional universe? Not everything needs to be tied together.

I'll start off by saying "I hate temporal mechanics" 1999 - Voyager 6 is launched travels and falls into either a black hole / worm hole that spits it out in the distant past and in what would now be called the Delta Quadrant is found by a mostly peaceful living AI race and augmented to fulfill it's core programing "lean all that is learnable, and return that data to its creator" 2063 - The Borg Collective from 2373 travels back to stop First Contact, but ultimately fails due to the efforts of the Enterprise - E crew. March 1, 2153 - (ENT, Episode 2x23) a Borg ship found crashed in the Arctic with 2 drones in it, they assimilate a few people, finish the "phone call" to the "Proto-Borg" in the Delta Quadrant with the coordinates of Earth, and it is said even if the message got to it's destination it would take about 200 years (with the known understanding of warp at the time) for who ever to show up on Earth's doorstep, but that doesn't account for the likes of V'Ger who was most likely about 80 years closer to earth doing its own thing. Star Fleet Intelligence aka Section 31 takes control of the left overs Intervening years: V'Ger may or may not have encountered a probe looking for whales and was unable to catalog it damaging itself and the whale probe at the same time.... **January 4, 2233: Nero and The Narada emerges out of a lightning storm in space and destroys the U.S.S. Kelvin, not before it gets detailed scans and it's "black box recorder" is turned over to Star Fleet Intelligence (again Section 31) and they realize that the Narada has similar tech as what became Control and they sped up construction and outfitting of the Enterprise with prototype tech that had given another 200 years they could have scaled down. ** 2257 - Section 31's Threat Analyses Program "Control" is based off a fragment of A.I. Tech gleaned from the Borg drones from the Artic event in 2153, and we see that it is still at its core assimilating people but without a connection to the greater Borg Collective Hive mind they where running under their own directives, and had they joined with the Sphere data they could have taken over the entire galaxy. 2270s TMP: V'Ger returns to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, upon reaching scanning distance of Earth only finds a biological infestation and in the possible millennia it has been scanning has become more than just a prob, or even more then what the proto-borg could have imagined. 2293 Generations Enterprise B: the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox, caught in a strange energy ribbon. Aka The Nexus, the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox have refugees from the El-Aurian home world feeling a borg attack. we don't have a fixed point of where the El-Aurian home world is, but is assumed to be in the far reaches of the Beta Quadrant near the boarder of the Delta Quadrant. (fun fact, the Q played by John de Lancie in one continuity The Nexus started out as a school prank or science project by Q and he never did know what happened to it or where it got off too) (something I'm going to be very adamant about here is that officially licensed works are canon, just not always in the same temporal continuity, but for the sake of head canon and fun, let's not get bogged down by that) [ I can theorize and techno babble about this all day, but I already know I'm going to be met with prissy fans who can't or won't just take it as fiction and it doesn't really matter] Q,Who - 2365: Q sends The Enterprise D into the path of a Borg Cube and the rest is as they say history.

@@idgamingfederation202 @IdGamingFederation My God. I am not a prissy fan. Just said something that I noticed. /theory crafting. And just said I remember in the show q and vaudwar said different things about the age of the borg. No need to become mad. And never said whale probe met v ger. I said whale probe in the book from the movie ( if memory serves me right) met a cube shaped vessel with mites. Was not saying you where wrong or anything. Was more like... What about this? I was not trying to proof anything. Just like... Hmmmm you say there is a plot hole. Let's see if I can think of a way to help fill that plot hole. But calling a subscriber prissy, and going off in this. Look I know facts better rant, just caused you a subscriber... Loves you videos. And never ment disrespect when reacting. But do not need to be treated like this.

My comments: Cut out everything and add more ship!

Unless it encountered a travelling black hole.

Yes, thank you! I remember reading that trilogy and it made so much sense. Always wish they could've worked it into 'tv' canon

@@mykleb1616 Maybe a cube was digitized by V'ger.

@@subraxas 🤭

Even at the time the pacing was considered slow, but the movie was also considered an incredible technical and financial success. That's despite it being massively over-budget and running wildly off-schedule. It's kind of a filmmaking marvel.

100% agree and honestly I wouldn't even say there's any similarities, V'ger is a living machine, the Borg are Cyborgs; their goals are completely different and incompatible. Not to mention First Contact and Voyager has given us more than enough information to guess at the borg's true origin thanks to dialogue from the Borg Queen and the Vaudwar.