Data's vague reference to Andorian marriages requiring groups of four does not necessarily prove four seperate sexes. How many are required in a human marriage if you include some of the wedding party like best man, maid of honor, witnesses, the clergy performing the service, etc? The four sexes are merely a speculation introduced in non-canon books. Thank you for a more reasonable treatment of this subject than others. 😀

That would be great... always fascinated by the Andorians!

I've read quite a few of the post Dominion war DS9 novels, and there is an Andorian Science Officer that serves on the Defiant when it goes on a 6 month exploration/mapping mission in the Gamma Quadrant. They go real far into the Andorian 4 sex thing as it's like one of the ongoing B-story arcs throughout a couple of the series as the Science officer has to make a decision to go on this mission or rather take an extended leave of absence as it is time for his bondmates to have a kid and his decision triggers major drama, and to top it all off his mother is a major powerbroker on the Federation Council, so there is political blowback possible depending on his decision either way. I like how they handled it and it actually kind of made sense or at least was well thought out by the writers, and it actually made a main species actually alien like other than just cosmetically different. The series really fleshed out the species though, and gave a ton of background into Andorian society and how having a different mating system would effect their society. I would recommend the Pocketbook various DS9 series of novels for anyone that's a fan of Andorians, and yes I think they should make it cannon as it makes the Andorians really stand out as unique and different from other races which make them much more interesting to me, plus who doesnt want a load more cannon material to obsess over on one of the major players in the Federation!

I agree, the four sexes concept doesn't sound practical. It could be that andorian society has four well-established gender roles, in much the same way as human society has two gender roles that it promotes through hetero-normative western culture. To me, that makes more sense than four sexes (which would overcomplicate reproduction, even though it would make andorian offspring even more genetically diverse than humans, which is an advantage).

I play a Shen Starfleet doctor in a Star Trek RP group in Second Life. I also served as the Andorian ambassador for a number of years. We use the 4 gender beta cannon. It adds so much to the species.

"It's logical to set the temperature at the mid pint so we both experience the least discomfort "" I don't bloody care I'm hot as hell and you shoudnt mind if you've got no emtions" cue vulcans lack of ability to be diplomatic in the face of an emotional response

I love the plait of hair from each bondnate. I designed a statue that has 4 bondmates standing in a circle holding the plait of hair in the center.

I do rather like the Last Unicorn Games' version mostly, except I think they got the courtship end a little wrong... I'd figure they just have more of a pack-bonding instinct than a particular pair-bonding one. Also it seems more likely for BFFs of one sex to court a pair of BFFs of another sex even if everyone involved happened to be straight. (But it's a system that'd also work fine even if everyone involved was gay :) (Except even more grannies wanting descendants, I guess. :) ) (And I thought the DS9 novels idea of four reproductive sexes both unnecessary and colonialist especially given there was whole plots premised on the thing that author made up needing a straight Human guy to 'fix' an older species by making them... like the dominant human culture. What a waste.) It'd be one thing to have four *gender* roles going on, but fixating on needing to make it *hard to breed* doesn't actually square with a harsh environment like Andoria. You'd expect that on a much more lush and biodiverse place maybe with more hazardous microbes. (Also that novel makes the whole thing seem sterile and soulless and clinical, and that doesn't square with such a 'passionate' species, either. At one point in a writing project I even had an Andorian take on Romeo and Juliet and it doesn't take much tweaking to have there be a Romeo and Mercutio and a maybe Juliet-maybe-knew Rosalind sort of thing, and then you got clan conflict and pointy things and yaknow... :) )

@@sabin97 Totally agree

Most creíble aliens in Star Trek. LH

I don’t mind Discovery changing them they are actually awesome the culture is amazing and having four sexes makes them even better

@@sabin97 Agreed. I think it might be closer to five characters

Every character played by Jeffrey Combs is amazing Also the total number of characters he has played on Trek is 7 (Weyoun, Brunt, Shran, Tiron, Penk, Krem, and Kevin Mulkahey) 8 if you include his voicing of Suldok in the video game Star Trek: Elite Force 2

Enterprise did an Amazing job making me like the Andorans who being a founding member of the federation are criminally underutilized but also made me realise just how annoying the Vulcans can be

@@wingedfish1175 yeah it really took a while for me to warm up T'pol. I did like seeing the start of human vulcan relations but now I really want to see the Andorians as well. Also the always wonderful Jeffrey Combs really nailed it as always 👌

I agree. I loved the antenna reaction to alcohol.

he ment, that predominatly human starships are to hot for andorians to be comfortable on for a five year mission.

@@flyingfoamtv2169, Oh, yeah. I understand. Likewise, human starships are usually a bit too cold for Vulcans, but there are still plenty of them serving on ships in Starfleet.

They can wear a suit that keeps they cold at all times.

Absolutely agreed, the Azad come to mind with their three genders male, female (incubator) and Apex (ovipositor)

I have a theory on what is going on with the Andorians. After looking over how life on Earth reproduce, looking at humans, cats, seahorse, and a little look at the Eldar from Warhammer 40k, I think I know what is going on. The Andorians are actually bi-gender, but they need two mens and two females to make babies. The theory goes like this, a female has a night with a male, but her eggs, like any other female Andorian, are inert, only activating thanks to the sperm of the man she was with. However, this male does have the strength to fertilize. So, another man does that. But, the Andorian immune system is different to Terrans, so the fertilized egg(s) can't go into the female's womb directly. So, she gets another female to carry the embro(s) instead, similar to Earth seahorses. This will result two fathers and one mother for the embro(s), even though there are four adults involved. To make up for a numbers came, multiple eggs are fertilized in a single round, with perhaps the kids not being birthed together on the same day, like what can happen with cats.

And what's wrong with that? Alien biology makes them seem more alien.

@@rickjohnston2667 - That they are aliens is obvious. The issue was that they were being used to create the illusion that all Humans were cisgender heterosexuals. The same thing was the case with religion. ST Humans tended to be staunchly Atheist (especially in TNG and later). Religion was also an alien thing.

@@rickjohnston2667 I believe, respectfully, you are missing the point. This is a show written by humans, for humans, representing humans via aliens. Thus, it is representing who we really are. Everyone is not alike. People who are not entirely straight end up being represented as aliens, similarly to how inter-racial people are most often represented as inter-species hybrids, to explore how human differences exist in our reality. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. That is a ST precept, with which we mere humans have yet to come to terms.

@@rickjohnston2667the issue is the presumption that straight/cis people can be represented as human where any other kind of person is represented as an alien. autistic representation has a similar issue, the autistic character is an android or an alien. this assumes a neurotypical, straight, cis humanity where any deviation must be explored through alien allegory. don’t you think that might feel dehumanizing to people? when they only see people like themselves represented as aliens and robots, rather than human beings? can you not stretch your brain to understand why that might feel weird to people?

I know they were the bad guys, but I like the Changelings.

@@nerdygerdy that would make more sense than my idea.

@@nerdygerdy I second that motion!!

Aenar

No, Aenar were established in cannon as being rumor until recently. Shran says most have never seen an Aenar.

Oh hell yeah that man Jeffrey Combs who played him got me into the andorian race I'm a huge fan of them

Depictions of third genders like Cogenitors on ST: Enterprise and the Binaums on Alien Nation seem to merely be one of the two genders with a slight difference that is required for successful mating between the other two. An alien species with more genders very different from each other would be interesting. The movie Evolution mentioned a triple helix DNA which might have required genetic material from three parents, but didn't go into details about the genders. I suspect requiring extra partners would be a disadvantage limiting reproduction.

Yeah...that species can't exist either. Sexual reproduction in the first place is almost too complicated to be viable. But, it still has a high-enough reproductive rate that it works. But once you add even one more gender into the mix, it all goes straight in the toilet. Even minor disasters could wipe out the species. . Asexual reproduction tends not to work because of its low genetic diversity, though. One thing goes wrong, and it gets them all the same. . A single-gender, sexually reproductive species that can both seed and gestate at the same time, would be the most optimal arrangement.

This thread is leaving out a very important aspect of the process, the Bonding. These are arranged in childhood. Thus, the genetics is all worked out decades ahead. There is no casual sex & oops! The concept is looked down upon in Andorian society, according to beta cannon sources. I think it makes sense. It shows the building of family dynamics & adds to the richness of the culture. We can't look at it from human norms. They are a distinct alien species.

I read in "The Good That Men Do" (the real story for the last episode and beyond of season 4) that Jhamel was the real one who was kidnapped, not a daughter yet. Still, was the little girl blind too? It seems that by the way T'Pol gently leads her to the shuttle, she is. I hated the way Shran tortured Shran to see if he coukd trust Soval, but Soval didn't get that angry at him.

@Rich Turner: Shran was an Andorian character, not an actor. The actor who played Shran was Jeffrey Combs. 🙄

THEY'RE* (they + are = they're) "...why *_they're_* always..."

@@customfantasyhotwheels dude, take your grammer nazi bullshit some where else......

that would just be a breen federation war, because the andorians are members of the federation.

@@flyingfoamtv2169 Unless it's an unofficial war. The Federation isn't willing to go to war with the Breen, but rogue Breen ships keep going after Andorian areas. So Andorians have to take care of it themselves. Species within the Federation have their own ships (like the Vulcans)...

It seems to me that it would generally be easier to "program" instructions into existing genetic code than to form it from scratch. Planets with biospheres already have life - it's a crucial mechanism in "terraforming" them into habitable biomes - so it would be smarter to modify it than to erase and overwrite it with your own.

Maybe it comes from algae growing on rocks and ice.

Perhaps the increased uv light causes chemical reactions that produce free oxygen?

If they are there then there is also other lifeforms genius cant get a humanoid being the only life they had to evolve from something else earlier think it through

That would make a very competent crew

Personally, I think life on Andoria would evolve to produce natural antifreeze. We already have real life examples here on Earth. It just simply doesn't make sense otherwise, especially with protruding antennae that would easily get frostbitten without antifreeze.

@@JanetStarChild Antifreeze definitely helps, but certain enzymes are needed to regulate biological functions, most of which require some sort of ingoing heat. Most creatures living in these environments here on earth have separate circulatory systems, or little amounts of their main circulatory system leading into the more spindly appendages. Antifreeze is a necessity, but not leaving your circulatory system exposed is also one.

It would protect their skin and extremities from the cold, but it would make them more susceptible to hypothermia.

I like this well thought-out explanation--you bring up a lot of excellent points, IMO. I imagine that in Lower Decks season 3 we'll likely get more insight into Andorian biology since Jennifer and Mariner will be dating. My expectation is that they probably _won't_ go the four-sex route given its absurdities, but we'll see.

I agree your reasoning is well thought out. I'm recalling the series Alien Nation (Tenctonese) which had three sexes, and the semen-like catalyst from the second male sex (the Binnaum) was required before the sperm of the first male could fertilize the female's egg. The second male sex was much rarer and partnered with many couples when they wanted to have children. Without the second male, sex between couples was purely recreational. They also played with the pouch idea; after 3 months of growing, the fetus would exit the female and enter the father's pouch, where it would mature. A lot of fun for the actors to talk about how their breasts would swell and such. I don't recall, but I believe males only provided nourishment for the first month or so, and then the females took over breastfeeding. As for the 4th Andorian sex having a pouch and not contributing to the genetic makeup, that would not necessarily have to be the case. It is probable that during the maturation process that something similar to mitochondria transfer during the continuous fluid exchange. Plus, there has to be a payoff for the 4th sex to even participate, so implanting the young has to be a pleasurable process. The 4th sex is the host for the fetus to mature. Perhaps when birth nears, the 4th sex gets together again with the female, there's some oral sex as the 4th sex nears delivery that triggers the shen female to lactate with the Andorian version of milk, making the breasts a necessary feature; the 4th sex carries the young to term, but after that, their role is done. Alternatively, the shen female might simply nurse from the 4th sex to initiate lactation. This would make the shen females the caregivers after birth; without that -- there really is no reason for the females to have breasts. Although, too, large breasts might be a permanent feature, but shrink after her fertility cycle is over. Wider hips might not be only for giving birth but would provide the male better access for coupling and insemination. There are some options there. Four sexes would seriously curtail the reproduction rate and the circumstances by which future generations can be conceived. Nature tends to abhor expensive biological processes, and birth among the Andorians would be prohibitive -- unless more than one child is conceived at the same time. If the 4th sex is much larger in size, they could more easily accommodate twins or triplets, reducing the biological cost by rewarding to cost to procreate with more children for the effort. With the two sets of male DNA contributing to the process, all children would be fraternal, not identical siblings, especially if the female drops two or three eggs. Or, they could always be identical, with one egg splitting -- a requirement based on the 2nd male's contribution? This would allow cases of fertilization without the 2nd male contributing his portion, but limiting the birth to one child at a time. In humans, sperm can survive for up to five days. What if Andorian females can simply store the partially fertilized egg until later? Having the 2nd male sex be a "smaller and more wiry size" does not make sense unless the semen also has secondary functions in the fertilization process.

Jesus dude it a but harsh and not well thought out to claim the whole idea is stupid based on one charecter having breasts and hips for reasons that may be entirely different from human physiology, they aligned we literally have no idea how they work internally

@@wingedfish1175 The way I see it is that biology is really messy. The way DNA is encoded is imperfect with mutations being rife. Also, requiring four sexes for reproduction adds a degree of complexity that I find unlikely that selection pressure will favor. There would have to be a massive survival advantage to having four sexes to reproduce.

It looks like if you have more than 2 sexes. Genders rolls and expectations, along with discrimination are reduced. I enjoyed Alien Nation. (Series and movie)