Very observant!

Excellent point

There’s too many fans that love the borg so much that they can’t let little things like details stand in their way. I would have hoped that it’s only too obvious that the borg had nothing to do with the creation of ultra powerful V’ger. Likewise an ascended being such as the combined V’ger/Decker wouldn’t bother with traveling through time and creating something so crude as the borg.

Another theory might be that they *are* the Borg [V'Ger itself is Starfleet contact w Borg,] meaning later arrivals to Sector 0001, like that Whalesong starship, because all Voyagers had recordings of the Golden Record. So after V'Ger tried to receive more Cloneslaves, the next vessel wanted our whales and aquatics probably, and so on. Whoever designed them, actually designed them for galactic defense purposes a long time ago. It's sort of a beat the system asap paradox. (My emphasis.)

All Borg theories are instantly disproven by Star Trek's own canon. In First Contact the Borg queen states quite clearly that her species used to be exactly like humans but then chose to 'evolve' by using cybernetic implants. Its literally impossible for all V'ger related theories to have any truth to them.

Although I wouldn't be opposed to the Borg having an encounter with V'Ger that resulted in them copying its design for their Unimatrix Command Ships.

@@Janoha17 Oh indeed. You could say that the borg at the time TRIED to assimilate Vger, but failed miserably, but did get some useful scans from the attempt...almost akin to Starfleet encountering the Narada in the Kelvin timeline.

@@XanderKHD And the Narada was augmented with Borg technology, taking it back around.

Exactly

I don't think I agree with this. I always felt like humanity's effort to explore was the main core theme of the show, almost to an absurd degree. Everything is very human centric, to the point where they basically are responsible for the creation of the Federation.

this carbon unit agrees.... at least V'ger didn't see us as "RUDIMENTARY CREATURES OF BLOOD AND FLESH!" lolz

Agree! This theory fails on its own base

Yea, I don’t see the connection with the Borg holding up.

Well, we don't know the borgs' origin, and they may have started as Androids like Data and possibly that meeting vger is what started their tendancy for assimilation, possibly.

Read my explanation at the top.

I'd prefer for the Borg to have been an accidental outcome for a race like the Bynars. They tried to upgrade themselves and got carried away losing their identity in the process. Similar to how Star Trek genetic engineering always leads to evil.

@@patrickmccurry1563 That would work too. Would also be a mystery as to which of the many Borg species is THE Borg species.

It's easy to imagine how this could have happened too. Cybernetics are a tempting field, even if only for medical purposes. And once established, some will take it further, "upgrading" themselves with certain additions - better eyes, digital memory storage, wireless communication and data exchange, etc. Add to that a new medical discovery in the form of "primitive" nano probes and you have the core concept in place. Some malfunction, virus or hacker attack could easily lead to the first "corrupted" individuals, the affliction spreading like wildfire across an unprepared mind network. Practically over night, a large portion of their population ends up either brain dead or entirely overwhelmed with the thousands of constantly open connections, creating the first collective.

@@SKy_the_Thunder Scientists with a similar mindset to those that made Khan's "family" could be very dangerous with cybernetics.

@@PongoXBongo Or just good old "what could possibly go wrong?" like in War Games, Dreadnought, or pretty much half the episodes about the holodeck. Oh, or that one telepathic species that had "purified" their thoughts so much, they got addicted to violence overnight because B'Elanna was annoyed for a second. They just didn't realize how close they were to disaster until a tiny minor aspect pushed them over the edge.

They did start the Genesis Project and Transwarp experiments (which likely turned into the warp scale overhaul) shortly after. I wouldn't be surprised if those were connected.

@@SKy_the_Thunder Sounds plausible. AFAIK, not yet confirmed or contradicted by canon.

nothing that saved them from the borg or dominion though

Always thought there was no information download. V'Ger severed the connection prompting The Creator to touch it while repairing it. But that didn't triggered any download. Only The Merge process. Thus if anything, only Decker got a hold of the knowledge. Not the Human Race.

yeah it's always bothered me that vger has never been mentioned again that was a major first contact also nothing more about the whale probe

Me neither. I wish it would just stop because its a crappy theory and isn't in any way canon.

@@nel1962 It's already been in Star Trek fiction since the 1970s.

@@RideAcrossTheRiver V'ger has. But the Borg origin connection with V'ger is not canon.

@@nel1962 No, in literature. Read Jesco von Puttkamer's story.

Well, while they weren't a machine race, but rather a highly advanced organic race, there was the Undine; aka Species 8472. The telepathic beings from "Fluidic Space" who wiped the floor with the Borg. So much so, that the Borg forged a shaky truce with Voyager's crew in order to eliminate the threat. That was where we lost Kes and gained Seven Of Nine.

You lost me at Discovery.

I like it!👍

To Be Honest, the author's theory doesn't work. The Borg created several hundred years ago (1482 A.D.) by V'Ger doesn't match up unless it fell into a Black Hole and sent it way far back in time. NASA Voyager 6 (Star Trek Universe) was lost sometime between 1979's movie and 2063 First Contact. So the more sound theory is yours and The Borg are no different than the Illyrians. A race of beings who create nanotechnology to perfect their Genome that went completely wrong and turned them into the monsters we know.

Machnie planet is actually the Earth from the future. They did have ulterior motive in repairing V'Ger as they most likely detect similarities in Voyager structure, they use it to also find own masters. Starfleet ships and computers always did have tendency of becoming self-aware and bit genocidal (Lower Deck make even joke about it). In fact sizable number of they probes are in Alpha-Beta quadrant like Edo God, etc. People may complain about new shows but they actually make good job hinting deep lore. I think I do not need explain is that Zora is clearly member of Machine Race? It is not coincidence that Control quoted Borg, Federation didn't even know at the time exits. Furthermore people forget that in Picard, Synths activated only subspace signal beacon. Destroying it would not cancel call, so robot squids pull by themselves (BTW one of shuttles in Discover also was attacked by squid drone) when Starfleet arrive on what they though was Picard emergancy call. For reminder beacon also act as jammer, so they in fact were called by temporally displaced beacon. Oh yes, and one another thing. Ships used by Synths have in fact same design as Section 31 ships. In fact Robot Squids were referenced as Machine Federation. They in fact were responsible for destruction of T'Kon (Ikon) Empire, what resulted with spreading proto-humanoids all over the Galaxy. It in fact explain why Guardians of Forever aka Ikonian Gates tend to act friendly toward Federation. It is clearly that they destroy own masters, for attempting to size time aka Temporal War. BTW Borg in fact do use Ikonian gate network. Janeway in fact destroyed one near Earth, preventing future Borg invasion. In Star Trek Online V'ger is straight considered as Borg command ship. It is all connected! BTW, Ring World is in fact canon in the Star Trek universe, as Lary Niven was one of Trek writers and he straight write in himself into the Trek lore.

Author Bruce Sterling imagined that humanity split into two factions, the Shapers and Mechanists. Shapers alter their DNA to gain superiority, Mechanists use mechanical means to achieve their dominance. He wrote some short stories about it, compiled in The Crystal Express, and also reprinted in his novel Schixmatrix Plus (the extra stores are the plus part). Its well worth the reading, Bruce did a wonderful job asking questions and examining future humanity.

That is not dead which can eternally battery recharge and in strange eons even death can get an update patch

Cthulu 2.0

And remember kids, V'Ger is the "Good" eldritch machine god.

@@gmradio2436 That's the thing about Cosmic Horror. It doesn't care about good or evil...or you, your Empire or Federation. Such things are miniscule and insignificant before it.

@@witchdoctor1394 Actually I am referencing the Mirror Universe. The literal evil clone.

Wow that's some awesome Star charting there. 100%

our Galaxy is a disc, thus circular, very easy to go clock or counterclockwise along a long journey back to Earth, machines have no worry, no concern about the time it would take. I did like that it (along with the whale probe) seemed capable of "Neutralizing" even Klingon ships. I bet that actually bit Starfleet in the ass, as it probably made Klingons build more and more powerful ships due to the permanent loses to Vg'r. at least with the whale probe it appeared capable of restoring ships as it reversed course, of course most Klingon ships crews were probably already dead just from the whole honor thing and took their own lives instead of waiting to be rescued like puny humans. (or they died by life support, batteries running out) heh.

Didn't V'ger come back to earth because it had been everywhere and brought the information back and to find a new purpose

@@marvenlunn6086 yeah V'ger wanted to complete it's mission. But the approach vector was from the galactic south east through Klingon space. Not from the North east through Borg territory.

@@barrybend7189 but V'ger had been everywhere in the universe V'ger just happened to return from that direction

well that's if your goal is to shoot at the thing. Modern Trek has almost zero connection to roddenberrys vision of the future. star trek has become complete trash

@@monsterx3055 That's probably true about the the new shows, but the Kelvin timeline is canonically identical to the original for any event that happened prior to the Narada destroying the USS Kelvin. Voyager 6 becoming V'Ger is one of those events. I guess my point is that V'Ger was a really interesting adversary that was unfortunately stuck in a problematic movie. I wouldn't mind seeing it again in a better movie. But I agree that the chances of that are very low.

@@tungstentaco495 Not really relevant, in the end, we'll never get to see another movie in that timeline.

@@tungstentaco495 to me, the Kelvin Timeline does have potential.

Especially given the fact that the Federation are able to contend with the Borg a mere hundred years after this encounter. The V'ger vessel, on the other hand, is orders of magnitude more powerful, colossally more so than the Borg.

Inyx friend was the queen

This is the first time I’ve heard of the Caeliar. I’d love to see them become part of Alpha canon.

In other books it was v'ger. I think it may have been by William Shatner.

@@jayburn00 Yes that was a weird story with Kirk being revived by Romulans using Borg nanites and is out to kill Picard, wtf

If the Borg has been around as long as suggested... I definitely believe that their function differs, but ultimately I have to disagree ...

Agreed - Although Trek does occasionally do technologically superior species to the Federation, for the most part, it either presents them as godlike (which for as powerful as the Vorlons and Shadows are presented, they're never presented as godlike), and/or are one-off encounters. Even outside of the First Ones in B5, there's a very clear power gap between humans and Minbari, where humanity isn't on the upper end of, and that feels nice compared to how human-centric the Trek universe sometimes feels (Even though the Federation is theoretically a multi-species alliance of equals and levelling of tech within it... The Federation-aligned vessels we follow in Trek are usually predominantly human crewed which frames the franchise more human-centric than ideal, IMO)

Species 10C or 8472?

@@trajan74 still not quite as advanced, maybe a few hundred years ahead of the federation

That tends to make for weak stories. If none of the main characters have any control over the situation or any power to affect events, then it's unlikely to be interesting in a series.

@@patrickmccurry1563 Opposite, imo - You usually get stronger stories from watching people struggle to deal with overwhelming situations, such as being technologically inferior, than people who have an advantage over the things that are opposing them, such as being technologically superior.

Yes, I remember reading that as well. V'Ger destroyed the species that attacked it but it didn't say if it destroyed the planet itself - at that point, I don't think V'Ger would have had that kind of power. Something we all should remember if we create an actual A.I. - the last thing we want to do it become it's #1 enemy. We would need to make it an integral part of our society - so that it would know it's needed and that it needs us as we are. Besides, of course, any safety/security programming we build into it - including a "back door" to reboot it or reprogram it (NOT a kill switch, if it discovered that in it's programing, it would not be too happy with us and start to look for one it could use on us.)

@@krisgonynor689 thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten so much about that book. It definitely belongs on my to re-read list. And good points all around.

@@krisgonynor689 An AI that's mad about having a killswitch is kind of an easy-to-reolve issue though, isn't it?

I want to hear about this school driver as well. It must be a story line I missed.

In one Star Trek novel where Captain Kirk is resurrected back to life by the Romulans, Vger is Borg tech and since Spock mind-melded with Vger before, the Borg regarded Spock as one of them. This was one of the most bizarre Star-Trek novels ever written. This novel read like a fan-fic written by a Kirk fan-boy because the resurrected Kirk was able to outwit Data, outstrategize Picard, outbattle Worf in hand-to-hand combat and was pretty much kicking but left and right throughout the story. Then I looked at the author on the cover and it said “By William Shatner”.m

Thank you. Now I know I'm not crazy. That original theatrical release did say over 82 au in diameter. It wasn't till I watch the new release when I noticed changes in the movie. But yeah, it was 82+au in diameter and not 2 au

Why kill us for the the fluidic space dimension's hate of machines?

@@gmradio2436 I’m not fully clear what you’re asking. From the machine’s perspective, V’Ger will have interacted with many organics, most who probably tried to attack (like the Klingons). And in a final terrible act, the creators of V’Ger regained their magnificent machine and…destroyed it (I mean, data transmission from ascension must be like the *worst* modem feedback in existence; and then it’s gone.) If you’re referring to 8472, I was just pointing to the parallels. As viewed (or experienced) from another dimension they tend to come to the most extreme conclusion for dealing with us. If instead you meant “why’d they send it to destroy us” they didn’t. My theory is they learned what little they could, then updated the probe and sent it back to do the same job we asked of it-only upgraded, protected, and provide data they collect. After all, we done know when the synth dimension turned Reaper on everyone. Just a theory…

@@gmradio2436 He's not saying it went to Species 8472 dimensions. He's saying the reaction of the Synth beings from Discovery's future universe (or from Picard's extragalactic Synths...which seem to have similar origins) had the same reaction to organics in our universe as Species 8472 had for our universe.

@@cypherca5309 Sorry. I thought you meant ark V'ger saw Fluidic Space and saw them in our universe and thought,"Time to get the Raid."

Hmmmm . you could be right

picard is non canon

Yeah because now we have to believe that throughout the entirety of the Trek Timeline from 2024, there was a separate faction of Borg that just managed to remain undetected not only from the mainline Borg, but every other major faction. Yeah, no. I'm calling bs on that. Picard is a hot mess. The whole plot of season 1 is just a cheap Mass Effect knock off, and it even lifted the shitty ending revelation of the Reapers' purpose.

Isn't it cannon that there were multiple Borg... Strains, but that the main collective is the current survivor? With at first several different collectives became dominant before falling away... I believe 7 said something along those lines when discussing its earliest history, hinting that is why its records are fragmented. And Voyager pretty much started a new collective. Implying that any crashed cube with enough remaining resources and fighting the 'rejoining or selfdestruction' directive would go this path. With statements in Picard that Gerady was "A" new queen, not "The" new queen, along with her not really OG Borg behaviour pretty mich solidified the fact that other older versions might exist. I kinda like that idea: the collective we know is like that drunk, overly handsy and verbose cousin that materialises at any family gathering, with the rest of the hives just hanging out in the back, too ashamed of being associated and sharing genes to speak up.

@@user-zh4vo1kw1z I’d love for it to be canon, but I don’t know where to look for a source.

@@user-zh4vo1kw1z please don’t use picard as proof of anything lol

@@jamesbizs I didn't.

The part of the book where Spock resists assimilation because he had mind melded with V'ger.

wikipedia also says that a GIANT CHICKEN WAS THE PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINEA AS WELL

It may be harder for the borg to ascend than v'ger, the borg would have millions of biological biasses in it's mainframe while the high level v'ger just needed a taste of imagination to expand upon, the bias of one individual not muddying the waters so much when the sole ingredient was added later and not from the start

I think V'Ger could have been Hivemind Temporal Neighborhood Astrometrical Site Charting, leading to the Borg involvement in the 29th CE Temporal War.

I came here to see if someone would mention this before I commented and I was not disappointed. I actually thought ST Picard was specifically pointing at that with big red arrows, glad I'm not the only one. All these toxic fans acting like there was no lore behind the story line, like duh, how much did you think before you posted neck beards. Ed - There is lore behind everything, but trust Data, never Lore.

There is no answer in picard. They pulled half that stuff from their ass. It’s sad that we now consider that cannon.

@@jamesbizs So, this is an interesting thing I've meant to talk about on my own channel. I get not caring for something. I'm not the biggest fan of Enterprise not do I really care for Lower Decks, but you know, these shows aren't made to cater to one audience. Watch what you like and maybe be glad those who like something else in the franchise get to have that. I may absolutely hate sit coms, but I really love that friends of mine enjoy it. And yeah, it's now cannot that things we don't like are in the show. But you know what? Like it or not, the tie up some loose ends in the series. If you want to stay ignorant of those things, do so. It's your choice and your right. But not liking something doesn't default make it bad. Just makes it not your tastes. Picard has some pacing issues and they break up couples for no damned reason, but so far, I'm glad I've seen it. Too bad on you to miss seeing enterprise D bridge again.

I assumed the transwarp corridors were made by the Vaadwaar. The ones around their planet were in disrepair, but the network covered most of the Delta quadrant. It would be simple enough for the Borg to claim them and keep them maintained. No need to maintain the ones around the Vaadwaur planet, since the species was dead and the planet abandoned.

While the Borg don't necessarily invent and innovate, they certainly combine technologies and constantly expand. Transwarp corridors likely started as a somewhat local project of some species. While they lacked the ability to mass produce and power an extensive network, the Borg didn't. So after assimilation the tech was assessed as a good method to assert control over their space - able to quickly reinforce in the case of attack - so they adopted it. Since then, they kept expanding their network to wherever they went. About the exit near Earth, it stands to reason that it was established around the events of First Contact, as a staging ground for that or even potential future attacks. It doesn't have to necessarily be that close either, since the tech is capable of creating temporary standalone corridors - so the actual connection could be located several systems away, and Voyager's navigation just prompted it to create a temporary extension to where they wanted to go. Would make for a more practical system than having to create an explicit exit at every single potential point of interest.

The bord absolutely do create things.

Nope, the branch of the Borg that were not aggressive were the ones that found it, saw it as a kindred spirit, gave it what it needed to complete its mission and sent it on its way. Not all of the Borg are Evil and V'Ger is a result. BTW - Spock is a member of the V'Ger branch of the Borg, this was covered in the novels.

Even curiouser, parts of the original script were basically a remake of that episode.

Yes it definitely was More than meets the Eye.

So, you've discovered my fiendish plan MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

@@megatronjenkins2473*pushes up glasses* transformers did do a star trek cross over in the comics. So they are part of the same marvel universe.

It is OG trek distilled: pure eldritch wonder, showing us that we have no true influence in its universe. Created by an absentminded 'just existing' kinda action, so bearing no intent nor care of its consequences. We do not even register as enough of a nuisance to bother picking up a flyswatter.

Ooo o baby bb b BB b. Hb. B hhb b.

*G'Kar

The writers said Vger did scan and destroy things as it traveled, remember.. it didn't just destroy the Klingons it destroyed the array as well and they did nothing to provoke it. All those things Spock sees as he passes through the aperture and reached Vger are things the probe scanned and destroyed.

@@DrewLSsix That's not entirely true. The Epsilon station was trying to scan V'ger and Branch states that those scans might've been interpreted as hostile. Kirk remembers this during initial contact, which buys the crew (and Spock in particular) a bit of time to sort things out.

Except Spock stays on Vulcan and achieves Kholinar. There’s no one to restart the engines and the Enterprise gets consumed by the Genesis explosion. Then earth gets drowned by the whale probe.

Why would they create a competitor for themselves? That's like if we were to build an army of robots that exclusively run on food.

@@SKy_the_Thunder We already are.

Blastoneuron could have been the Hivemind's dev team for nano... Is that possible?

@@darinbauer8122 Wha? Who, where? Running machines off of food makes no sense whatsoever considering the low energy density, huge amount of waste products and storage/decay issues...

@@SKy_the_Thunder u funny! If humans composted their body waste agricultural economy would stabilize in a matter of years. Remember the words of Mario Savio my friend. 'When the machine, the apparatus becomes so foul, so odious, then there is nothing left to do but throw ourselves upon the machine itself to prevent the apparatus from working at all.' (Paraphrase.) Let's try to keep the galaxy safe from those damn infernal machines dang blasted!

Here here. It is the "everybody is cousins" trope that almost made Lost a parody of itself and is the biggest reason I cannot find any interest in the galactic family infighting that is Star Wars.

Ohmygod so like its like... a TV show?! That changes everything! Nobody has ever considered this! What insight! If only we knew before then we could have saved all that time speculating on lore! Like, it's not even real, what are we even doing?

@@MrMartechi Only TNG on is a TV show. Captain Kirk and crew are real.

Depends in canon yes in the EU no.

Hot tip: This is science fiction and you clearly don't have an imagination and take things to seriously so please go away.

Time travel. Watch the show... you can see it is plausible.

That planet of sentient machines is called Cybertron....

@@zorrodahousecat9104 😂 Excellent! Transformers is officially Trek canon now lol.

They also use the synth musical sting for VGER when viewing it in-game, and the giant plasma weapon does the same derez effect VGER did. STO at least has *always* pointed to a connection, without overtly stating it.