Java Jim, I am sorry, but this video did not make things clearer for me. I am more uncertain now than I was before watching! What are you trying to communicate? “PID sensor”? ALL machines have temp sensors for heater control, but only high-end machines have true PID controllers (proportional, integral, derivative). And what do you mean about the water source? Are you talking about RO systems that use a mineral cartridge after the RO cartridge? Please explain.

I have a 4-year old Lelit Bianca V1 from 1st-Line. From day 1, I ditched the filter that came with machine and use distilled water with Third Wave Water package instead. It has made thousands of coffee drinks with no issues, fingers crossed.

Very interesting video. I bought my Lelit Anna from 1st Line a year ago and have only used purified water, since the local water is very high in calcium. No problems with the machine. And the espresso tastes great!

Just bought a new espresso machine with PID and was just about to buy those packets!! Thank you Java Jim for these videos!

Thank you G.I Jim for this week’s PSA :) very much appreciated.

What about the water recipes at Barista hustle?

Hey Jim, Thanks for raising awareness but you need to give the range of acceptable use of how much mineral content should be in the water. The tern soft water doesn't help as that can range to anything. This why distilled or zero water filters "if you have low chlorides" and adding back minerals are the less hassle way of making good water. The people having issues are they using the espresso type of packets? how much to water to packet ratio are they using? There are a lot of unknowns and would like more clarification.

Hi, Is it safe to use Tang®? I think the Ph is a little less than orange juice, which helps to control scale, and adda nice citrus notes to my espressos.

Is there a simple solution to remove the film on my PID controller? Are there any ways to remove the film that the powder has deposited on my PID controller? I Hope you can help me. Thank you

Thank you for the information. I have been using distilled with the packets as I was trying to avoid scaling the inside up. We have extremely hard water so is there a type of water that we can buy that won’t put the film and won’t scale?

Studies have been done on the correlation of calcium level with extraction of coffee flavours, extraction starts to drops off below 60 PPM

La Mazzoroco recommends Poland Spring water. I did a calcium test on that water and it was 51 PPM, currently using that water in my VBM. No issues so far, calcium and magnesium become less soluable as the temperature increases and scale out on the metal surfaces. For high pressure industrial boilers, calcium and mag. should be 1 PPM or less, these boilers run at much higher temperatures. It appears that at the 90-98 C levels, the higher calcium levels don't result in scale. I have come across ways to calculate how much calcium a water sample can have at a given temperature before it starts to scale out on the metal. I just can't remember which book I saw that equation

Are you talking about biofilm? Biofilm will act as an insulator and could cause overheating. RO systems and water filter systems in general should be sanitized at least once a year to cut down on biofilm.

Hi which mineral powder is the video referring to or could it be that the wrong profile was used. I checked with Third Wave Water and got the following message: Thanks for reaching out. That's a great question. Our espresso profile will not harm your machine. In fact, we worked with La Marzocco to create the espresso profile to ensure the machines weren't damaged. The mineral types we use are combined in such a way that the formation of scale and corrosion in the boiler are prevented. His rationale for why the machines are overheating is because scale is interfering with the sensor's ability to read the temperature, or the ppm level of the water is too low. Our espresso profile meets SCA guidelines for TDS (approximately 150ppm) and contains only minerals with enduring hardness that do not cause scaling. When using our minerals you want to be sure that the distilled water you are using is safe to drink! Some types of distilled water say it is "not for drinking" or "not for human consumption." Don't use these. You can also use reverse osmosis water or water from a zero-water filter if that is easier for you to obtain. Let me know if you have any questions. How do you feel about this information? Or has one or the other arisen or changed on the subject? Many greetings

Most water softeners just exchange calcium for sodium i don't think that's ideal for espresso taste / extraction but could work. Some people add sodium to coffee to counteract bitterness but if its using sodium chloride and your espresso machine has a stainless steel boiler it could be creating corrosion.

This video is getting me confused of what to do for water for my espresso machine (Lelit Bianca). I have an RO system, but I understand the science behind why it's corrosive. Plus, the coffee extraction is said to be bad with RO and distilled water, as stated on several websites, including the SCA (speciality coffee association of America). Understood. Some suggest just using the resin softening filters, like the one that came with my Bianca. The good thing is that it will reduce the calcium in the water hence the scale in the machine, but the chlorine taste in my faucet water is going to go through it, into my coffee. Some suggest using a filtration system like the BWT Bestmax Premium. But this filter releases Magnesium in the water, and the water recipes of Barista Hustle and such, add Magnesium as the main mineral. If so, don't we end up with the same issue with BWT filters? From BWT: "As a pioneering innovation, this filter also features BWT Magnesium Technology, which enriches the water with valuable magnesium in exchange for calcium. In addition to effective limescale protection, BWT bestmax PREMIUM thereby ensures outstanding results for hot beverages." On top of that, resin filters work by doing an ion exchange. Exchanging sodium ions (in the filter) for the calcium and magnesium in the water. So the sodium ends up in the water after the exchange happened. Is that ok for the machine or the coffee? I'm just confused with all kinds of contradictory information.

A lot of information with no facts. I'm an engineer with a minor in chemistry, and I have done a lot of espresso machine work because it is an obsession. Is water softener water good? It depends on the source water. Get the chemistry work done to understand YOUR water, every well, every city will be different. Are mineral packs bad? Depends on the water you start with, and what is in the mineral pack. This video can't even be a little right without proper discussion of chemistry. Jim, your heart is in the right place, and I'm sure your experience is valid. However you do not appear to know a lot about chemistry, and probably should stick to anecdotal warnings and be a little less declaratory when you don't really know what you are talking about. I agree that some water formulations could be problematic, but collect some specific facts, and stop lumping all water together as if there is only one kind. Do some research and tell us what is good, and stop trying to "help" with generalities that cover more ground than you have facts to support. What mineral packets were bad? What was the deposit made of that they left. What were the effects of descaling, what changes may be needed to handle this new type of scale you are telling us about. Get some help from chemists and scientists that know this stuff. Talk to the mineral companies, show your work.

This video is really vague and not helpful. I just pre-ordered a Mara X from you and I want to know what water I *can* use and I just can't find an answer. Brita filtered + the water softener that comes with the machine? Third Wave does contain some calcium, and that concerns me. But I'm just not getting any clear direction about what I *should* use.

I have a whole home water softener and I use a 3 Stage water filtration (No RO) system at a sink spout to use with my Lelit Anna machine. Can that cause issues? Also, what symptoms would you see on a overheating machine?

Great info Java Jim, -Tks

You invite questions and you don't answer a one? whats up with that?

Technivorm Moccamaster user here. (Hi!) I know what I paid for this machine and I know some of the price points of espresso machines. No way am I messing up- breaking my machine for the mineral water magic. I buy spring water and leave my RO water to wash in. I buy water in 5 gallon bottles at the kiosk for $1.25. NM water sucks.

Thank you thank you, great information

Love your videos Java Jim. Did not know about RO water problems. There's black flakes coming from my water reservoir. Can I clean espresso machine or throw it out?

So are the bwt packets that go into the reservoir ok?

Sadly where I live the hard water has more ions in the water than than sache water like third way water and I get more limescale, I use natural spring water only ! Also, it shops that people do not descale their machines every now and then or not at all.

FWIW, I have used RO water in various espresso machines for 20+ years - NONE with PIDs BTW (because, IMO, PIDs are for coffee geeks, not coffee drinkers). Do keep in mind that (for example) London UK water can be upward of 400TDS, and RO water from this source may be in the mid-30s. Another location is ~100TDS well water. RO water there is in the teens TDS or lower. This is NOT "distilled" pure water. None of the machines has ever had a water-related issue and none have ever had any scale

I have a water softener equipment installed in my home and I also have a water filter installed in my fridge which is what I have used with my Breville for almost 3 years with no known issues. I just bought a Mara X and intending to keep using the same water from the fridge. Any advise if this should be fine for a machine like Lelit Mara X with PID and boiler ? Thanks.

Can you connect the VBM to an external water tank, and does it need flojet?

Hi, I have a Breville espresso machine. My house comes with a water softener. Is this water okay to use for my machine?

this is more confusing than not - so what water is good to use ? i been using brita filtered water along with the water softener pouch that you sell - is that OK ? if not - what can i use instead or do that will help keep the machine limescale free and not affect the PID ? thanks Can you make a video on WHICH Water is best to use ?

One time my family was traveling and we decided to stop at a rest stop my dad paid $1.50 for a coffee and when the machine started working instead of coffee it gave brown water turns out it was broken🤣🤣

Is it OK to use Brita filtered water? I also have the in tank softener (Lelit Anna PID)

How should I remineralize water for espresso if I must use Reverse Osmosis water?(city water is near toxic in my town so a basic filter won't do).

The content of this video is patently false. If you really “monitored the forums” you would see that people have used remineralized water in their espresso machines for years without issues. Proper maintenance of your espresso machine and the use of properly remineralized RO or DI water will not cause any issues. If you don’t know what you’re doing or are not comfortable mixing solutions to get the correct hardness and alkalinity, then stick to bottled water (LM recommends Poland Springs).

Is there a test kit to show what the water should be? I don’t have a PID machine, but planning to get one. I currently have a whole house filter (lasts 5+ years before re-bedding) with a separate softener. I then have an 5 stage RO system under the kitchen sink. I’ve been doing 2 parts RO and 1 part from the softener water. The mix gives me a TDS reading just under 80. Been using this without issue. I have a “Varify” test kit and everything on the label is within the green range even before RO. I did try straight softened as well as half of each, but noticed I needed to decals more often when I used those ratios. The thing I’ve been wondering about is of what’s in my water is still ok?

What about Penguin filters in stainless boilers?

I been using only akaline water for over 4 years its very expensive but worth it.. I spend 40 dollars a week just in water..

Do I use cold or hot water

Poor video with lack of information and clarity. If you’re going to send out a PSA, be specific, products, etc.

Any photos or videos of machines with the problem? You would think a widespread problem would be plastered all over the forums...

will descaling my old rancilio nancy with vinegar hurt it? thanks

Usually I really appreciate your video's, but this one was terrible. You start with 'Just to be very very clear' and then say 'typically' following 'most' and 'some' which directly terminates your credibility about this subject. The whole biofilm / coating part was not understandable. And I find it very weak, to speak this way about manufacturers and competitors without any proof. "I've seen so many machines" How many, 10%, 20%? Sure using bad water could damage your machine, but please give some very clear examples or just say. be careful with using RO and I would not recommend to use distilled water.

Great informative video on water for espresso machines

Just use filtered water from the faucet!