Does Record Cleaning Eliminate the "Fungus Among Us" on Records? Restoring Records Back to Life; 163

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3 ай бұрын

#vinylcommunity #vinylrecords #records ‪@kirmussaudio7578‬
kirmussaudio.com/ka-rc-1-ultr...
An interview with Charles Kirmuss of Kirmuss Audio and inventor of the KA-RC-1 ULTRASONIC RECORD RESTORATION SYSTEM.
His history and knowledge of what truly can lurk on record surfaces and within record grooves.
His method and process defy some of the current hot trends and shortcuts being taken which don't take into account what truly is on and in the record.
Whether new records or used, it's not a pretty sight.
This labor of love in equipment and process ring up at over $1,000, which isn't nearly the most expensive machine out there. But this machine isn't the start of the show, it is actually the process and ways to truly see how much gunk remains to remove to restore the record.
The results are a cleaner sounding record and, many times, a perceptible db gain in the output of the LP compared to the pre-restoration record.
This comes at the cost of the time it takes to perform the tasks necessary to really strip off the residue and history of the record which kept our ears sheltered a bit from the goodness that lurked in the grooves from the time of pressing the record.
kirmussaudio.com

Пікірлер: 68

@MikesVinylExperience 2 ай бұрын

Thank you David for this info. I have been on the fence with purchasing the Kirmuss or the Degritter. The Kirmusss sounds like the one. Thanks again!

@The_Music_Sanctuary 3 ай бұрын

Thorough cleaning is a very important part of the equation that is commonly overlooked or not even considered at all by others. Great video David...cheers ✌

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

Hello David, I met you at Charles demonstration class and bought a machine also. There are a lot of naysayers, think Charles quirky personality puts them off. Cut to the chase, his machine gets records cleaner and improves the sound unlike anything I've tried yet. One commenter goes on about him not letting you know what his "secret cleaner" is, the ingredients are on page 2 of the manual and I've made my own for very cheap. I incorporate my vacuum machine into the cleaning to preclean really dirty records, but have a good rhythm built up now and really am glad I got this machine!

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

Great to meet you! I'm very much a "prove it to me" type person as there are many products out there that promise a lot but don't deliver. What I found most interesting here is that Charles is selling a process that happens to use his machine as part of it. Now that gets my right in my wheelhouse. The few examples I've heard were revealing and your experience and feedback is great to hear (no pun intended)! All the best :)

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion Thanks for the remark as to what we do. Education as shown in this video is key. Quirky or not, the science proves our claims.

@ernesttricarico6402 3 ай бұрын

Since the cat's out of the bag! It works just as he says. The records I have done have a considerable increase in everything sound wise. Not the cheapest record restoration device but the one I purchased

@davidnelms5726 3 ай бұрын

Thank you David for posting your last eat video. As I can see from the comments before I got here, this topic definitely stirs up discussion. I have used the Kirmuss system and I am very pleased with the results. And it is just that, a system. It takes time and many steps. But it definitely works and as you mentioned, you can hear the difference.

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

Well said!

@analoguecity3454 3 ай бұрын

I've noticed more "new" LPs are dirtier than decade's old LPs! I have a "Rhino" release of "Talking Heads : Speaking in tongues" that I've cleaned 3 times , and still have a bit of mild distortion!😮

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

The materials used today are not the materials used of old. Limited number of output per machine per day sees some compromises made on the manufacturing side. In the February 7 NJ Audio Society Zoom the VP of RTI confirmed industry practice where depending on the price paid, some recycled defective records get recycled into the mix of a new biscuit. Also much gas to do with the number of records made with a set of stampers. If I recall Anne Bisson, Canadian Jazz Singer has RTI press 300 or 500 records per stamper. Some manufacturers press 10,000, and more.

@automatedelectronics6062 3 ай бұрын

You know, the minute he started talking about a release agent used in pressing records, I realized that he was talking through his hat. I'm sure you've seen the video that Chad Kassem made when he and others in the record pressing industry, like Rick Hashimoto of RTI, visited the manufacturer who supplies them with their premium vinyl. Chad asked them about if they added a release agent. They said no. Chad doesn't use a release agent when pressing records either. You have been to record pressing plants? Sure you have. Did you see them put anything in the vinyl hopper to be melted down and made into pucks. I've got one of those pucks sitting on my desk that I used for a paperweight. Rick Hashimoto of RTI gave it to me. When you saw the records being pressed, did you see them spraying the stampers with an "oil" or release agent? I never have. When those vinyl pucks come out of the extruder, they are 270 degrees F. You couldn't touch one with your bare hands. When they are put into the press and a record is pressed, that vinyl is superheated and then cooled down before being released from the press. Through the heating and cooling process, that is your natural "release agent". So the finished record is over 100 degrees? Now I understand why they often come to us warped. I have experimented with flattening records and have found that 120-130 degrees is ideal for flattening a record over a period of time under pressure. If the record gets over 135 degrees, it will start to distort, creating a bulge in the record making it egg shaped. Unless captured, the vinyl will flow outwards. He is correct about ultrasonic frequencies. Some will do nothing to a record. If there is cavitation, the bubbles just bounces off the records. He mentioned Michael Fremer. Didn't he do a video about ultrasonic record cleaning machines? Didn't he cover the records with aluminum foil? He did or someone else did a video about cavitation using the foil. He spoke about the static electrical charge of a vinyl record, giving a miniscule figure. Well, I guess that he has never encountered a new record in one of those so-called "anti-static" sleeves. Heck, when I get a new record from Mofi or Analogue Productions, the records have such a high static electrical charge that I have a hard time getting them out of their inner sleeves. I can hold the sleeve by it's bottom corners, with the open side straight down and the record won't come out. Those records are literally charged with 100's of volts. Oh, and have you ever used one of those carbon fiber record cleaning brushes? If you want to charge a neutrally charged vinyl record with static electricity, use one of those carbon fiber brushes. If I clean a record in my VPI HW17, a charged record will come out neutrally charged(no more than 3 rotations under vacuum). A record charged with static electricity draws dust like a magnet. Try blowing off a dusty record with canned air. It's futile. Zap it with a ZeroStat3 and the dust will blow off. So, use a carbon fiber brush on a record. You will see dust particles left. Try blowing them off. They ain't goin' nowhere. Support a record by the label, zap it in 5 different places with a ZeroStat3 gun. Dust easily blows off. Come on, you know all this stuff. It's elementary. Don't let somebody pull the wool over your eyes.

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

A strong light on your turntable will reveal those brushes also leave carbon bristles all over your record, my advice - throw them away. I think 75% of Charles advice is good, and a lot of his data he uses at one time had merit, but record pressing and release agents aren't the same as 40 years ago. His machine and his base approach though are giving me the best results I have ever had for cleaning vinyl. I especially like the easy to use rotation top. People like the Degritter because it has a dryer built in, that tells me it isn't a very good cleaner, with Charles machine, once a record is really clean, it comes out of the water virtually dry, just wipe off a few drops and its done. That part is pretty amazing.

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

In 1977 when the Shure Brothers came out with their V15 Mark IV, complaints came in where the needle was picking up something. A document that I discovered 4 years or so ago, saw Shure call it a pressing oil. I called it 11 years ago a release agent. Anyone working in plastics knows there are mold release agents whether applied to a die, or in the case of the record, comes to the surface to allow the record to pop out. Shure"s slides vindicate the presence of this residue. Our process as seen on our KZfaq channel shows the before and after record restoration. In 1978 Shure provided a brush that attached to the tone arm to handle the issue of materials being dug out.

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

Added, there is no PAM or additive applied to the stamper. If you look at the PowerPoint slides of the images taken at the ARSC meeting at Cascadia Records in 2018, it shows a metal polish used on stampers if the mix of the PVC the biscuit was not correct as defective records were recycled, a metal polish was manually applied to the stamper to pass the incorrectly made biscuits. In the circa 2019 2020 covid era NJ audiophile seminar or tge KirmussAudio pro ess, RTI in the session confirmed the recycling of defective records as well as supported the surfacing of a pressing oil from the heating of the biscuit and pressing it.

@automatedelectronics6062 3 ай бұрын

@@kirmussaudio7578 Vinyl is a product of crude oil, it is an organic, not synthetic product. As I stated, I have a dry vinyl puck, from RTI , sitting on my desk. The puck never had an oily texture. As an experiment, I sat it out in direct summer sunlight on a 100+ degree F day. The puck surface never got oily, even after cooling down. Next, I soaked and washed it in a oil-cutting solution. No change after air-drying. Next, into a heated ultrasonic cleaner, filled with non-sudsing ammonia(probably the best degreaser). After air-drying, no change to the surface, it never had an oily film.

@automatedelectronics6062 3 ай бұрын

@@kirmussaudio7578 I am not discounting your ultrasonic "restorer" or it's value. I'd love to have one. But, dealing with records for over 60 years, and hearing and believing some of the stories, I know that records are dirty when they are manufactured. At no time are the records in a "clean room", from the manufacturing of vinyl to the packaging of the records. Imagine the dust floating around in the factories, especially landing on the stampers when the press is open. That dust is embedded in the records forever. Nothing can remove it. Whatever lands on the finished records, can be cleaned off. However, no kind of cleaning or "restoring" can correct physical flaws in records. I have recorded 1,000's of records to hard drive as lossless wav files over many years. My preference for preparing the brand new records for recording is to, after extracting them, with difficulty, from their inner sleeves, is to dust them with a carbon-fiber brush then to run a carbon-fiber grounded brush(electrical connection from fibers to metal handle to ground) in 2 different brush positions. Then, because of the static electricity created from the brushing and it's original charge, I use my Milty ZeroStat 3 on the records. Then I record of play them. Wet-cleaning a record neutralizes static electricity. Spinning and either air-drying, brush drying or vacuuming excessively can put static electricity back on the records. Because vinyl is a crude oil byproduct, oil is part of a vinyl record, you are never going to get rid of it. Cleaning the record surface before playing is important. Even after cleaning, occasionally a piece of dust may adhere to the stylus. A blast of canned air gets rid of it. The only oily substance I have ever found on a stylus is from the cleaning compounds. The worst were the record-cleaning cloths with an oily surface I bought from Bags Unlimited. I don't think they sell them anymore.

@moogoomoogoo5990 3 ай бұрын

I would be interested in learning more about the “fluid” that changes the charge of the record. Everything I have watched about this in the past was shrouded in secrecy. That type of secrecy makes me go hmmm?🤔🤔🤔

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

FYI from someone who has the unit and looked in the manual: "One commenter goes on about him not letting you know what his "secret cleaner" is, the ingredients are on page 2 of the manual and I've made my own for very cheap."

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion We use propanediol 1-2-178. It has a colorant. It is not 1-2 propanediol . Never make your own solutions unless you know what you are doing. I provide a bipolar ionizing agent with the Kirmuss system.

@nickmetzger3191 3 ай бұрын

Fashionable t-shirt 😉

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

Yes Nick :) I wore it to the DFW Record Show yesterday and had several people ask for my business card! I gave them your shop information.... :)

@simonblack301 3 ай бұрын

What is the release agent? Is it part of the "biscuit" compound? What does he mean by a bubbler? You said there is sound engineering in SOME of the logic. What parts of the logic are not sound?

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

When the biscuit is pressed, just like with other processes using a press, heat, pressure, sees a coating come to the surface that allows the record to pop out. This is home to contaminants caught in the cooling pressing oil that are cause of those unwanted pops. Using a Keyence VHX-7000 2D 3D microscope we can visually see the .9 microns of pressing oil, termed by the Shure Brothers, release agent as I term it, removed. With those nasty pops of fused contaminants in the record's groove. The spectrum analyzer also shows the before and after audition. Referencing RTI, Anne Bisson''s new pressings made by RTI are the best new records I have touched, still, we remove the pressing oil providing a 1.3 dB gain over floor and upwards of 8% average increase in frequency response. With pressing oil and outgassing of the plasticizer removed, the needle picks up the detail of the stamper.

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

Take a look at the whitepaper published by the folks at Making Vinyl. There are liquefiers, stabilizers and nearly 2 dozen additives that make up the biscuit. Many pressers have their own mix.

@simonblack301 3 ай бұрын

@@kirmussaudio7578 Very solid answers. Thanks

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

@simonblack301 We learn something every day. This past summer, we discovered where scratches on used vintage records found at Goodwill shops or at garage sales were mostly in the film on the record left by the outgassing of the record caught in a sleeve for decades. Not in the plastic. Great discovery...love shopping these places for first pressings with original artwork on the outer jackets. Once restored, sound great!

@simonblack301 3 ай бұрын

@@kirmussaudio7578 That is incredible!

@Grooverski 3 ай бұрын

RMR 141 rtu does the same thing for a lot less in pre-wash. Gentle enough for records and negative charge qualities that is suitable for ultrasonic positive-charge bubble bath. For a lot less. This guy has unbelievable marketing ability that brought him quite a bit of $. Simple, modified ultrasonic Chinese machine with use of the ‘right’ chemical. Right chemical is a big question mark since he won’t reveal what it actually is. So there’s that.

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

Funny, the ingredients are on the second page of the included manual, so he's doing a piss poor job of hiding it. I made my own for very little $ and it works great. You can piss and moan all you want, but I'll put a record cleaned by his method against anything you want to throw up.

@Grooverski 3 ай бұрын

@@pnichols6500 Good for you. 🤣

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

@@Grooverski Thank You! I'm enjoying vinyl more than ever thanks to Charles and his genuinely fantastic machine 😀!

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

Yes, Charles has profited from his work, research, investments - no one should have an issue with that IMHO. He puts his money where his mouth is on proving results, both auditory and analytically. That's not to say other processes aren't effective. Are they AS effective. Don't know as no one else has done the comparisons with measuring equipment. So to those with as good as or better solutions, they should provide a measurable audio comparison before and after. This process has the goods in testing results (and feedback from those who've heard the outcome). And yes, he does give the formula in the documentation....

@Grooverski 3 ай бұрын

@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion Can someone provide a link to that formula? I’ve asked him about it years ago and he wouldn’t give a definitive answer. I don’t mean to say that it’s a snake oil, just an amazing marketing skills on product that isn’t exactly rocket science. I’ll admit that he became more fact based in recent years. So credit to him. 5-7 years ago it was pure bs campaign. Process worked but we all knew the benefits of ultrasonic cleaning process. Not trying yo attack the guy, just saying that there are many ways to skin the cat. And for those on the budget especially. And I’m always a fan of new, inexpensive and effective ways to skin that ‘cat’. Again, I hope you don’t take it as an attack comments like the other guy.

@Wreckords-Marcel 3 ай бұрын

I have seen the Krimus process and while I am sure it works great, who has time for that?? I would rather try to spend my free time listening to records than cleaning them. Just buy a humminguru or degritter or vacuum cleaner and enjoy some records

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

We offer 3 dB gain over a Humingu. Not an ultrasonic but a bubbler. Sorry to say. Restored records need no air, vacuum or spin drying based on the Tribelectric table of charges. Your records should never need air drying if they were properly processed. Surface polishing and coating a record is not record restoration. Once the process is completed, never to be repeated again.

@jlcougilljr 3 ай бұрын

Hi David, Charles seems to be a pretty good and legit guy and i've heard him speak many, many times ,but, maybe through no fault of his own, he has a carpetbagger vibe about him (or his presentation) that just rubs me a little the wrong way. Nothing against him what so ever and no hate here, god bless him for what he's done and is doing! i think the main thing to take away from him and his process is that there is certainly an investment in time that needs to be applied to this entire process... that's something that is very clear, but in todays word i wonder just how many folks are or would make that much of a commitment all the way 110% , all of us being the music nerds and fanatics that we are i would hope most of us would and will.

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

I'm retired, and being an "audiophile" is a hobby that I enjoy all aspects including having a great cleaning routine. So spending time cleaning is actually a plus for me as I'm OCD and actually keep a cleaning spreadsheet, I keep track of all my albums, different cleanings, sound quality before and after, vinyl condition, where and when purchased the album etc. Charles is a character, but I've talked to him at length several times and he's actually a pretty good guy. I have modified his process to suit me, but his machine works better than anything I have tried.

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

Sometimes passion can be misplaced as mere salesmanship and I get the feeling of that vibe. Now Michael Fremer has challenged Charles on his process and outcomes to the point of Charles investing in equipment to substantiate the results of his process. Fremer now has a positive belief in the product/process and the results. So I give kudos as he had taken the challenge and put his money where his mouth is... This process isn't for everybody as time is a precious commodity; heck we hear that from people not buying 45RPM LPs because they can't be bothered to flip them twice!

@jlcougilljr 3 ай бұрын

@@pnichols6500 awesome!

@jlcougilljr 3 ай бұрын

for sure David!! 110%

@robbiedetroitstigermanviny8883 3 ай бұрын

A lot of Out Gasing

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 16 күн бұрын

I’m seeing my doctor about that problem… :)

@robbiedetroitstigermanviny8883 16 күн бұрын

@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion lol!

@krwd 3 ай бұрын

David, sorry i have to fast forward through crazy Kirmiss i have heard it before and its bilge water he did not invent the ultrasonic record cleaner, or the solutions, or anything including the machine with his name on it, its an isonic and can be had for hundreds less all of this stuff is bought off the shelf seriously. 🙄

@pnichols6500 3 ай бұрын

Whatever, I'll put a record cleaned by his method up against yours.

@krwd 3 ай бұрын

@@pnichols6500 i didn't say that ultrasonic didn't work, i am an advocate of it actually, i have two ultrasonic systems and the VPI hw17 i just disagree with the snake oil approach of Kirmuss, 👍

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

I don't hear him claiming to invent ultrasonic machines. I do hear his analysis of how an ultrasonic machines frequency and effects have to be compatible with getting into record grooves and aligning an ultrasonic to that task. As far as the solution, I can't say who invented it, but I can say I've seen no other that focuses on giving the person cleaning the vinyl chemical reaction feedback on whether any problematic chemicals remain on the surface of the record. I understand the underbelly mechanics of the machine is basically an Isonic machine with some frequency and temp modifications and slots for 2-12", 1-10" and 1-7". Funny enough, the word machine or ultrasonic are words I rarely used in my discussion about this because it is the process to me which is the real Star of the Show...

@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion 3 ай бұрын

@@krwd What snake oil? A machine that he modified for vinyl reocrds? A solution that uses science and chemical reactions to communicate the true surface condition of a record? I honestly think many let Charles' personality drive their response to him; that's easy to do in a world full of fast buck entrepreneurs. I simply respect the time and effort taken to bring a process like this to the market as an option. It's not for everyone, but it certainly isn't meritless either.

@kirmussaudio7578 3 ай бұрын

@krwd bring us a record of your choice to any of the shows we participate in globally. Waiting for you a turntable, headphones, signal and spectrum analyzer. Need your eyes and ears to see and hear what record groove restoration is all about! Keep those records spinning!