Dr. Z AMA: "Master Volume vs. Attenuators"

Рет қаралды 71,804

6 жыл бұрын

Which is right for your application? Dr. Z explains the differences and applications for using a master volume amp vs. a traditional non-master volume amp with attenuator, in this case, the Dr. Z Air Brake.
www.drzamps.com

Пікірлер: 119

@cajunqueen5125 6 жыл бұрын

very helpful, thanks for doing this. Great job.

@Ones_Complement 2 жыл бұрын

Master allows for reduced volume without sacrificing preamp saturation. Attenuator allows for reduced volume without sacrificing power amp saturation. Really all he needed to say.

@nedim_guitar 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! That's what I'm talking about! What about a volume pot or volume pedal in the FX loop? Does that work like a master volume knob, sacrificing power amp saturation?

@bluehole6019 2 жыл бұрын

@@nedim_guitar Yes, that’s how it’d work. With some amps that works really well, because some amps get the majority of their tone from preamp saturation. But some amps (especially Marshall Plexis), really need that power amp saturation to get going. You just gotta make sure the amp will get a decent tone just off that preamp saturation. JHS makes a pedal called Little Black Box that’s literally just a volume knob that you put in an FX loop for that purpose, so you might check into that for it if you wanna try it.

@bluehole6019 2 жыл бұрын

@@Tonesnob72 If you have a solid state power amp you’d be clipping the power amp, not saturating it, and that either wouldn’t sound great or wouldn’t make a difference at all from what I’ve gathered. Amps like the Orange Micro Terror have a tube preamp section and a solid state power amp section, so all of the gain comes PURELY from the preamp and the power amp is strictly clean. Not ALL amps sound good pushed to their limits, just the vast majority.

@acmeyakko 2 жыл бұрын

I mostly agree, but I think the explanation of application was useful for some audiences. Mostly basic audiences. The thing that bothered me, which gets to your point, is... why? He never explains why. It wouldn't have taken much effort to explain that the master volume lives between the preamp and power amp stages (in most master volume amps) and the attenuator between the amp and the speaker. Drive each as you see fit.

@nsc217 2 жыл бұрын

I understood what he said better

@rontrose 4 жыл бұрын

The master version of the Remedy is genius. I really love the half power cranked with the gain backed off a bit to the edge of break up. Perfect for clubs. I used to tour with a Route 66 with the Air Brake and still use it a bit. I love the sound of both!!

@BrianVallotton 5 жыл бұрын

The first time I ever listened to or even seen the famous Dr. Z! Nothing like hearing it straight from the guy who made my Dr. Z Maz Jr! God bless you!

@dietmarsimon 4 жыл бұрын

This is the best 'to the point' explanation I'd ever been given on this subject. Now I understand much better why my beloved old 'Remedy' came without a MV and why my neighbourhood would appreciate an attenuator.

@PhishBanjo Жыл бұрын

This was a great dive into this topic. Thanks!

@tmitz73 5 жыл бұрын

Awesome Video Dr.Z!!!!

@retrolee 5 жыл бұрын

Great explanation- I think I finally get it . Thanks for the post !

@ralphguzzoactorproducercom4417 5 жыл бұрын

I use a Dr. Z air brake with older marshall JMP non master 50 watt - works great with hardly much tone loss. Excellent. Highly recommend.

@seamanjive 6 жыл бұрын

I gigged for the first time last weekend with the Brake Lite after my Maz 18 NR head. Fairly small venue but still need to get the amp cooking. The combination of Maz & Brake Lite worked like a dream - get one !

@howlemt6569 5 жыл бұрын

I have a MAZ18NR, but no Brake. What advantage does the Brake give you? What can it do that I can't do using the Master Volume?

@seamanjive Жыл бұрын

As the Doc says, you can retain some power tube crunch.

@No-vm7go 3 жыл бұрын

Excellent attempt to describe the differences between a master volume and attenuator (not an easy task). Having started out on SS amps, this will probably be lost on SS players as they simply cannot know how difficult it is to describe the tonal, power and reactive/responsive differences between tubes and SS. It took a few years of playing tube amps before I finally 'got it'. In my SS days, I would occasionally test drive a tube amp at a guitar store and of course crank up the gain to 11 and was always disappointed at how muddy it sounded as compared to using the same approach on SS amps (that 'muddiness' is called 'saturation', BTW). For the life of me, I could not understand how so many bands were able to marshal such beautiful and powerful sounds out of the most well known of tube amps. I think it takes a lot of discussion, research and practice to finally grok the difference and though descriptions typically make it sound like there is little actual difference, once you experience/feel the difference, you realize how huge that difference truly is. Same applies to master volume amps and attenuators. The devil is in the details.

@mikemitchell7374 3 жыл бұрын

I love this channel. Helps me make sense out of things. I for one, like to use an attenuator when I need to bring the overall volume back. I like the effect of driving my output tubes hard. Yes it is harder on the tubes, but it just sounds and FEELS so much more squishy and juicy and yummy when I go that way. I use the Weber MiniMass attenuator. I am pleased with that unit.

@halbertking2683 6 жыл бұрын

"It's 9 oclock.There's 10 people in the bar.The room fills up.Everyone has a few drinks." I love your way of putting it.

@bigfattrolllord 5 жыл бұрын

Dr. Z is always really friendly and never craps on one method or the other. If I had disposable income i'd buy Dr ZX amps just because the guy is so nice.

@TimO-wt9sz 4 жыл бұрын

bigfattrolllord I agree with you I actually get so jellous the guys I watch always get gear for free for doing a demo on them crazy tens of thousands of dollars my dad had a z amp it was stolen and never had insurance never could afford to have it replaced he’s passed on now ...I’ll never ba able to afford a z amp sucks but just had a baby girl not in the books but I hear yah eh the old boys all about the tone love him to man

@jordandangelo180 4 жыл бұрын

I would too. This guy is super nice and informative. He seems very down to earth and makes a great product. I have been looking for a good attenuator and I will probably go with the Air Brake. I really respect how he gave the credit to the guy who built Trainwreck amplifiers. Trainwreck are some of the best amps ever made and they sound unreal. I have a TDrive pedal which sounds great and is supposed to emulate the sound of a Trainwreck but there is obviously nothing like the real thing. Anyway awesome guy, great video.

@rich9353 Жыл бұрын

Dr. Z air brake is life changing. I can jam in my house with my mesa turned up and it sounds FUCKING INSANE. THANK YOU DR.Z 🍻🇺🇲🤙

@abradfordajb 5 жыл бұрын

It's always nice to hear from a real "amp guy" like Dr. Z, who has created much success with his designs over the years, talk about topics like this. I will say one thing that he did not mention, and which is fundamental especially to live sound, and that is the simple fact that attenuating your amp's output will not drive your speaker(s) sufficiently to generate a "proper" sound .... by "proper", meaning that increased attenuation limits what the speaker(s) can do physically. This is more related to attenuating the amp's final output than to making master volume adjustments, since the master will influence your generated tonality more directly than simply scaling back the final output. Personally, I've never liked attenuators for the reason that the speaker itself is limited, thereby limiting what you would otherwise hear. But of course, we all acknowledge the need to bring volume levels down when required, so a well-designed attenuator is a good compromise i suppose. Rgds.

@DrZAmplification 5 жыл бұрын

as we like to say around here, "there's no excluding excursion!"

@DANTHETUBEMAN 3 жыл бұрын

That's why I like a master volume amp, to mix power tube distortion with pre amp gain, that is where the magic happens for me. That is "THE TONE"

@brandonkent966 4 жыл бұрын

Thank You

@guitarandotherthings6090 Жыл бұрын

Wish I knew about this before I sold my Sears Silvertone, it sounded incredible above 12 o'clock but was "just too darn loud". lol. Anything below 12 sounded so dead and flat but above it came alive!

@Blueagle8u 4 ай бұрын

I am the proud owner of not one,but TWO DR. Z. Air brakes! Love them on my 100 watt Marshall stacks. I modified my two attenuators by drilling cooling holes along the sides of the chassis! ( case removed of course to avoid filings). Runs much cooler and looks badass!

@seamanjive 6 жыл бұрын

Lookin' good Doc...

@dragui9932 6 жыл бұрын

Great video Dr! I would love an Antidote with MV though. Too damn loud for my home and that makes me sad

@robertprice5039 Жыл бұрын

Actually, bought another Brakelite for the older (2015) MAZ 18 that I just got. I like to be able to control the gain/volume at a few different stages, to dial in the edge of breakup sound.

@NoCoverCharge 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks this helps just bought a 1985 JCM800 non master volume 50 watt and it’s loud as hell but I sure want to play it out …

@rich9353 Жыл бұрын

I use the air brake with my Mark V. It's fuckin bad ass you need to get one. Life changing. Crank it up without going deaf

@rickbloudoff5121 2 жыл бұрын

Air Brake is awesome

@zackcoffmanguitar 6 жыл бұрын

I actually really need a Z brake for my Z wreck. Such an awesome amp but it is loud and sounds great loud!

@miker9184 4 жыл бұрын

ZACK COFFMAN definitely get one, it’s the magic combo ! I run my Z-Wreck with the volume around 11 o’clock (which is loud). Then I hit it with a Lovepedal Eternity for my OD sound and a Keeley Compressor for clean. I also use a Torpedo Captor 16 ohm Direct Box to go to the board and use the thru out in that into my Air Brake to my Z Best Cab. I can then get full tilt tone to the front of house mix and can control my stage volume with the Air Brake without affecting the front of house sound whatsoever! For me it’s the perfect set up that I can utilize in any size room, from a small bar to a decent size hall ! Of course it’s definitely not cheap but well worth the investment if you’re playing a lot !

@alextotheroh8071 5 жыл бұрын

Great video, crystal clear. Would be interested to know more about what's going on under the hood with these two devices!

@middle_pickup 5 жыл бұрын

I'm wondering if the air brake would work well with my 1993 AC30. It's a stupid loud amp.

@DrZAmplification 5 жыл бұрын

A air brake or a brake lite will work fine with an AC30.

@deaftone 6 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I wish i saw this video before i got my Air Brake. I have a Carmen Ghia in my appartment. I love this amp, but its too loud. The Air Brake didn't help me much, cause at home volume it is still too loud and the Bedroom mode alter the sound too much and i didn't like it - too compressed, so i sold it. My question is how is complicated to add a Master Volume to the Carmen Ghia amp? Is it possible? Is there a schematics availible for this kind of modification? Thanks again.

@gumz4183 5 жыл бұрын

I'm sure it's fairly complex unless you have years of experience building or modding electronics. Try the attenuator from swart amps.

@mthao1832 2 жыл бұрын

Try the hotplate attenuator very good used it on Marshall’s and Friedman

@Slammintone 2 жыл бұрын

Would the Airbrake be a good matchup for knocking the dbs down a bit on my awesome Dr Z Z-Master? Love the sound of this amp making its own overdriven sounds but it’s a bit much for my neighbors when I get anywhere near diming it. Thanks!

@DrZAmplification 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutley!

@mikereynolds3294 2 жыл бұрын

is there a forum somewhere for advice on settings using a Maz18nr and a Brake Lite that folks like for different styles and scenarios? thanks

@DrZAmplification 2 жыл бұрын

ztalk.proboards.com/

@Pirimpolas 3 жыл бұрын

Watch the video until the end. It is worth waiting for. Great! (LOL)

@michaelmashup452 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks from the Techno DJ realm

@218273847562009923 6 жыл бұрын

Cool video Dr! How does a standard master volume compare to a post phase inverter master volume?

@DrZAmplification 6 жыл бұрын

A standard master will be before the phase inverter and after the tone stack. The Post phase inverter allows you to drive the phase inverter for an added gain stage and a more convincing power tube-esque distortion.

@DrZAmplification 5 жыл бұрын

I like the Rich Mod II PPIMV on Marshall amps paired with a variable negative feedback control to fine tune. Both relatively simple and very effective circuits - Frank@DR. Z

@DrZAmplification 5 жыл бұрын

@MarkKiddGuitar I don't see why a properly implemented Rich Mod II PPIMV wouldn't work with the JTM 45. You have to take care to select a balanced dual gang pot that matches the resistance of the dropping resistors before the power tubes. Also, leave the resistors in. And also realize that in a fixed bias amp the range is going to be limited. Using the variable NFB mode will improve the range and tone of the master volume as well.

@RulgertGhostalker Жыл бұрын

to me, an overdrive pedal is a " master volume" ... i like my cone breakup, so i want my amp and speaker matched to get my cranked sound at the level i want ... anything else is a compromise, so why not just jack in an overdrive, turn down my "master-volume-less" amp volume, and turn up the pedal gain ??? ( but could it be that simple ? of course not. ) so i finally figured out how i am going to do my optional Master Volume / FX Loop Board ... the FX return level is going to be a shunt whipper pot adjusting the Swamping on a NTE 396 swamped CE amp on a 1:1 signal transformer.....it's the only way i can do it, without clipping the 396 running on the pre-amp voltage rail ( and everything else with the Master / FX Loop board is pretty elementary ) but i am still thinking about skipping it all together for the EPS tube head. ( so i might just tell people to get an overdrive pedal for practice, and run a second wet amp for their effects ) then i can just leave the EPS Stack design as is.... idk... maybe i just put a master volume knob on the back panel by the one 8ohm speaker jack, and skip the loop option.

@RumzDizzle 6 жыл бұрын

Two questions: Recently purchased a cure and it has a level control. What category does this fit into since it has a volume master and level? Do attenuators degrade the life of your output tubes? Had one from another maker for my DRRi and wasn’t impressed with it, sold it. Thanks!

@DrZAmplification 6 жыл бұрын

RumzDizzle the level control is a different circuit from the master volume. Think of the volume on the Cure to be the input gain, the master what you use to control the signal as it reaches the power tubes, and the level control to control the overall volume of the amp (both preamp gain, and power amp gain). All attenuators will cause the power tubes to drive harder and wear sooner, but no faster than if you actually had the amp cranked to full volume. The power tubes are still being worked hard, the attenuators is just transferring some of that signal (volume) to heat via large resistors. This added resistance works well with some amps and not so well with others.

@RumzDizzle 6 жыл бұрын

Dr Z Amplification Thanks that really helps me understand how attenuators work, brought back a lil physics 2 knowledge. Love the Cure BTW, first Z and I’m a Z-liever now.... sorry couldn’t help myself. Keep up the good work!

@DrZAmplification 6 жыл бұрын

RumzDizzle no problem! The Cure is a really popular amp and has gotten a great response since it’s debut!

@HRBPS23 2 жыл бұрын

Can the air brake be used with a solid state amp? Thanks

@soapboxearth2 4 ай бұрын

I saw the price and was blown away. I thought what a ripoff. Then I compiled the parts on mouser.. I take it back. Haha. Good lord prices of things like resistors and rheostats gave gone through the roof.

@bilham7387 3 жыл бұрын

I would also like to install a master volume for jtm45 I am a little worried that the sound will not change. What do you think? Thanks

@DrZAmplification 3 жыл бұрын

Finding the right PPIMV circuit and experimenting with the right value pot is the key to dialing in a good master volume for those amps.

@veson3d480 5 жыл бұрын

Nowadays you gotta sell you car to by an attenuattor

@possumcode 2 жыл бұрын

heh, I liked "then you turn your volume back" part xD

@jamesfarlig3178 4 жыл бұрын

will a "brake lite" be okay for a distorted sovtek mig50, or do i need the air brake? kind regards

@DrZAmplification 4 жыл бұрын

You risk damaging your amp. The brakelite is rated for 45 watts and under. A MIG50 can likely do and upwards of 60 watts totally driven.

@jamesfarlig3178 4 жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification all right, thank you !

@RulgertGhostalker Жыл бұрын

AMA request, ( concerning my previous comment here ), your opinion, Z ; on which way i should go about it ? ( considering i am a start up.) EDIT: my circuit revision video is up. EDIT # 2 : my EPS Wet Send Box video is up also.

@shader26 6 ай бұрын

Was just wondering. I’m buying a used Air Brake (not lite version, the one in the video) and all my other attenuators are rated for impedance to either 8 or 16 ohms, but as I understand the air brake can be used for either (or even 4 ohm if ya got em)? How is it able to work without dedicated impedance? Is it safe?

@DrZAmplification 6 ай бұрын

It's resistive attenuator so it works on the concept of impedance mismatching. Many newer attenuators are reactive loads, which require a dedicated impedance load/curve. It is safe down to 4 ohms. It doesn't sound the best with 4 ohm loads at it's highest attenuation settngs though, if you are going for bedroom volumes, it is best with a 8 or 16 ohm load.

@shader26 6 ай бұрын

@@DrZAmplification Thanks, good to know! I bought and picked mine up and it sounds just fine! I have a HotPlate, and a few others, but finding them more and more useful. Probably going to use yours for gigs, definitely for rehearsals.

@shader26 6 ай бұрын

@@DrZAmplification I tested the attenuator at the sellers house and it sounded fine. I notice at home with my SG it sounds kind of harsh the more I take down the volume. Seems like a big hop between setting 0 and 1 even that I sure didn’t notice when trying it. I’m not knocking the attenuator but it’s like middy and harsh, I thought there was something wrong with my guitar at first but it may well be the whole setup, I have several amps and was trying this with SG into a pedalboard (even with nothing on) then into a Tweaker 40. I may have to just try a few other setups, but I sure didn’t hear that with the seller rig. It may be something else.

@DrZAmplification 6 ай бұрын

@@shader26 A Tweaker 40 is a master volume amp that was designed to have a clean power section. It's power section isn't meant to be driven into distortion. It's distortion is generated in the preamp, then controlled by it's master. The Air Brake is intended for a non-master volume amp that generates distortion through it's power amp, like vintage fenders and marshalls. I would audition it with a different amp.

@shader26 6 ай бұрын

@@DrZAmplification Thanks, will do. That probably is it!

@stevensmith6019 2 жыл бұрын

Dude is consumate Cleveland. I love 'im.

@Germinalx 4 жыл бұрын

I wonder if MV at 10 engages the power tubes? It must.

@markam306 4 жыл бұрын

The power tubes are always in the circuit and thus ‘engaged’. The signal must travel through the preamp stages, then the power amp, then output transformer to speakers. A good way to visualize a volume control would be as a subtraction or ‘cut’ device. When the volume is on 10, all or practically all of the signal passes through to the next stage. Turn it down and the signal is reduced (cut down) by having the voltage reduced. This is the same for all volume controls on tube amps; guitar volume, amp input volume, master volume, etc. In other words, your amp is built to multiply the electrical signal from your guitar by ‘X’ times, and the volume knobs allow you to reduce this to whatever level you would like. If by ‘engage’ you were referring to overdriving the power tubes into clipping, this normally requires higher settings on the input volume and master volume. Cranking only one of these normally will not drive the power tubes hard enough to clip.

@dumbdickler670 3 жыл бұрын

In short, yes, maxing the master volume along with turning up the pre amp gain will produce power amp overdrive

@Johnny1.0 5 жыл бұрын

Teach me oh wise one!... Teach me your black magic wizardry!....

@GaryShowbiz 2 жыл бұрын

I never knew Dr.Z was a person

@DrZAmplification 2 жыл бұрын

in the flesh

@ladyjulia4038 5 жыл бұрын

This guy reminds me of Frank from always sunny

@danrunnheim3870 5 жыл бұрын

Sounds like Alex Jones, without the political fear mongering.

@remy333 3 жыл бұрын

Is it safe to change the air brake attenuation db levels while the amp is on and live playing is occurring?

@DrZAmplification 3 жыл бұрын

No, you should stop playing before turning the knob. For a moment, as the knob changes contacts, there is effectively no load on the amp for a millisecond. With no signal, (playing) there is no output, so you are safe to switch it while on but no playing is occurring.

@remy333 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification thanks!!!

@allboutthemojo 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification when using the bedroom quiet feature knob, is there any tone sacrifice? Or do get all the tone just at a super low small house friendly setting?

@DrZAmplification 3 жыл бұрын

@@allboutthemojo no sacrifice, the bedroom knob is designed exactly for that purpose!

@allboutthemojo 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification thanks. And do I need a different version for each amp wattage? I see a 100 watt version and a 45?

@oov55 6 ай бұрын

good

@kean10c 4 жыл бұрын

Are attenuators redundant for use with a Master Volume amp?

@DrZAmplification 4 жыл бұрын

It depends on the design of the master volume. Some early master volumes on vintage amps work less well than others, and some prefer attentuators on them. As for our amps, if there is a master volume on it, we insure it works well and is tuned to the sound of that amp, so no attentuator would be necessary.

@kean10c 4 жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification Thank you for the reply!

@TimO-wt9sz 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for that question I have a Marshall dsl 40 cr it has a master and 2 pre volumes and I want an attenuators any suggestion

@TimO-wt9sz 4 жыл бұрын

I had made a comment sir I hope you see it about using one on a Marshall dsl 40 with master volume and to pre volumes one for clea and gain

@DrZAmplification 4 жыл бұрын

@@TimO-wt9sz Dr. Z Air Brake

@robertmurray2535 5 жыл бұрын

I have a Marshall jvm410h. It has master volume but I would like to run it harder but have heard stories of attenuators messing up an amplifier. Is there any truth to this? Would my amp be safe with an attenuators?

@andischmidt3334 5 жыл бұрын

just depends on the quality of the attenuator.. cheap ones can absolutely destroy your sound..

@GuillermoSmyser 6 жыл бұрын

Sounds like “attenuators let your output tubes get distorted, master valume doesn’t but you can get more control over volume where as attenuators are just clicks”

@Rithman 5 жыл бұрын

What about volume pedal/EQ in send/return vs attenuator?

@DrZAmplification 5 жыл бұрын

That would just be a master volume in essence.

@allboutthemojo Жыл бұрын

@@DrZAmplification And what is the difference between this air brake unit vs a reactive load attenuator like the two notes? From everything I've read, reactive is much better? I don't know, I'm asking . Also, doesn't putting an attenuator after an amp but before the cab mean that you can get cranked preamp and power amp goodness and then turn down the output hitting the speaker? Best way to get your amps true sound at bedroom levels?

@klapaucjusz1 5 жыл бұрын

I feel it didn't really explain very much. Master volume gets your volume down, so does an attenuator, attenuator is better if you want power amp distortion, master volume is for amps more focused on preamp gain. That's it?

@stillnessinmovement 2 жыл бұрын

in short; if your really seeking that saturated tube sound, get a great tube amp and an attenuator. if you like using pedals, use a master volume amp.