I have found that to be true too. We can't pay too much attention to Garmin etc that uses algorithms derived for the "average" measurement that takes no account of health, physical condition, temperature, terrain and so on. Nobody is an average.

@@drichi07 Me three

Hi Stuart - I'm sorry that's what you took from it, because I was very much going for health throughout. If I was going for performance, I wouldn't have started with Zone 1. Nor would I have spoken about efficient training, enjoying our chosen sport for as long as possible, or helping us live a longer, happier healthier life. I'm not sure how you took a performance slant from those words and my beginning the body of the video in Zone 1 but I'm sorry if you feel it was the wrong approach.

@@alwaysanotheradventure no, my apologies, I probably misread your intent. I do that at times. I would say that for the majority of the population talk about heart rate zones is too complex and fussy for them to bother with. So the talk test that you describe is a good compromise.

One way to obtain maximum efficiency is to do it six days a week. Maybe not as much volume. And then just add the higher intensity interval training at the very end. But really working at steady state zone two. In a way it’s like music or anything else. If you do less of it, but more days a week you get a large uptick in affect and efficiency and results. I am 57 and my father has been a world-class Alpine Mountain climber from age 30 up to 80. He improved every single year. He didn’t have all the information but he did apply it. He had the metabolic health of a top athlete in their early 30s . Had he never drank alcohol, he would still be soloing mountains with 70 pounds on his back beating the tar out of 20-year-olds.

Sounds good.

You're going well Hugh!

Thank you James

Glad it was helpful!

Glad you enjoy it Chris

Thanks Ian

Possibly Roger - we're doing more walking this year because a big backpacking trip in Iceland is planned.

Glad it was helpful!

My HRmax is 173 tested at that session in Edinburgh. I would have thought my top of Z2 was about 130bpm but seems not. If the Hr formulas are trying to estimate LT1, and LT1 fluctuates daily given the factors mentioned, I suppose it’s no wonder they’re out. It took me a long while to get my head around this - about 4!attempts to make this video!

I haven’t- I rarely make them.

Sounds exciting - and long! I've done two one-day events of roughly that duration; a big European cycle sportive and an Ironman. In both cases, the deciding factor was nutrition. I enjoyed the Ironman, but the sportive was the worst day I have spent on a bike. What made the difference was the food. I kinda thought it didn't matter too much when I did the sportive. I'd done big days on the bike (Raid Pyrenean sub 100hrs) and stopped at lunchtime for real food. The sportive made utterly different demands, and no time to stop. What worked for me wouldn't necessarily work for you, but my only advice would be to pay significant attention to this during training. I try to start with 'real' food (soft white rolls and cream cheese for example), before venturing into sports products and finally gels, but that profile is for triathlon. Sean (who is a highly experienced long-form triathlete) talks about it in one of our Century ride videos - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fc5pbMyWu5yviHk.html.

My dad broke his spade in 1971. He screwed, glued and lashed it. Still works- Spear and Jackson #5...it's in my shed now.

@@Ey_upAlways a good day with a Ripping Yarns reference.

Hi Anita - thanks for the comment and I don't know enough to be able to offer you reliable advice about training. I'm pretty good at pulling together sources of info and making them understandable, but I don't want to pontificate when I don't know. When I find myself in that position, I try to find an expert. That's what I've done for our strength training; I found a woman who specialises in coaching older folk (she has clients in their 80s) and her approach to my wife and I is quite different to the 20 year old body builders. I realise you didn't ask about strength training, but I'm using this as an example. That said, strength is absolutely crucial to all of this. Is there any chance you could find a personal trainer near you with the knowledge, understanding, and genuine interest with whom you could work for a few sessions to set you on the right track? I often find myself recommending the book 'Outlive' by Dr Peter Attia. You might find that encouraging and a good way to progress. At least you'll know the questions to ask any potential trainer! The best of luck.

I haven’t had a fit on that one and I agree. I had the original Camino and it turns out this new one has a different geometry! Not sure how long I’ll keen this one.

Yes - RPE is a great way to listen to your body. But sometimes hard to place yourself on the scale (how does 6 out of 10 feel different from 7 on any given day?). That’s why I like the idea of the two metabolic thresholds, which are real measurable changes. They work like a couple of anchors around which RPE - in my view - works best.

I always struggled with RPE…and I suspect many would, based on their personality / motivation. The more motivated of us ( that used to be me) would estimate their RPE on the low side ( I never thought that I was working hard enough), whereas the less motivated would think that they were working too hard. This was seen in a weight training study where even experienced trainees struggled to estimate how many reps they were away from training to momentary muscular failure. Most estimated on the low side by a good few reps.

😁

The standard deviation from all the research is 15 - so any given individual could be 30 beats out!

220-age is way off, even as a population average. Various formulae that use .68 or .70 time age are closer, but still population based. There's a huge individual variance. Also, 75% of max (or whatever) is also a wild-assed guess, probably too low. For me 80% of heart rate reserve (gap between resting and max) is much closer. That's maybe 85% of max. This is consistent with what Stephen Seiler says. Look him up if you're unfamiliar with him.

These equations have a standard error of estimate of around +/- 10-12 beats per minute. Taking the classic 220-age equation (not the best!) for example, that means, for people who are 60 years old, the average max heart rate will be 160 bpm. Around 68% of them will have MXHR between 150 bpm and 170 bpm, and 95% will be between 140 bpm and 180 bpm. And 5% of 60-year-olds will have a max heart rate above/below even these boundaries! (These are conservative estimates; a +/- 12 bpm SEE would lead to even greater disparity). Separately, the classic 220-age equation has been shown quite conclusively to also have a fixed bias, such that it underestimates MXHR in older adults and overestimates MXHR in younger adults.

Ye I read his stuff - it’s brilliant and used by Dr Peter Attia too. But San Millan puts two zones between Lt1 and LT2. It’s excellent for faster younger riders looking to push their Z3 at tempo. Not sure it’s so useful for older folk - that’s the next video.

@@alwaysanotheradventure Inigo talks about training in all zones, but how the most powerful zone is the one 2, because how it uniquely builds and optimizes the health of every aspect of mitochondria and metabolism. It’s the gold and diamonds secret weapon! Not speckled down to academia or the medical community yet. It will probably take five or more years. A lot of people know zone two is popular but DO NOT understand WHY? “Maximum mitochondrial expression.“ I tested this recently and was totally blown away at what I was able to do, and I’m 57. It is also, with no competition, by far the most powerful prescription for overarching cellular and full metabolic health, which is really the base foundation to everything!Once people understand this, they will also understand that nutrition and supplements, and all of the other stuff is peripheral in comparison. It can complement the base, but we need to major on the majors and minor on the minors. If people simply did one hour of steady state zone 2 training a day, six days a week, the entire United States would see an astonishing and utter turnaround of health of all forms! unfortunately people don’t understand this most essential foundation. So they get caught up in the weeds.

@@alwaysanotheradventure also, I believe it is great for all ages. Basically get an hour of steady state zone 2 in, then finish off with some varying intervals of zone three through six. Yesterday with a rucking vest, I walked up a steady hill that took me an hour to get to the top, at 5000 feet, I was in perfect zone 2 the whole time! Maximum mitochondrial expression. But then I pushed myself as hard as I could the last four minutes. That was just one interval. If I continued the same routine five or six days a week, I would slowly build a little bit more VO2 Max at the end. And have fun with it. Maybe be all out one minute intervals. All out two minute intervals…. Up to about 8. maybe sometimes just sprinting for 20 or 30 seconds. But keeping the high intensity stuff down to five, to at very most 15 or 20% of the total. And of course, easing into this extremely slowly, to avoid injury and burn out. Unless a person is training for a specific event, I think that the interval hiit can easily be just 1-10%. It goes along way!!! My dad did this his whole life and was doing it in his 80s (still getting stronger every year as a world-class Alpine Mountain climber ) and had the metabolism of a top athlete in their 30s.

I had a weird HR spike that was investigated thoroughly and nothing found. Even so I wouldn’t dare advise on something medical like that, sorry! However it’s a great question if you could ask a cardiologist who is familiar with your case. I know that’s very not helpful, so my apologies.

The definition of Z2 top in the system I'm suggesting is LT1, as presented by Inigo San MIllan & Peter Attia, the leading exponents in this field. That's when Lactate in blood starts to rise above 1.7 milimoles per litre and is below 2. That can only be measured in a lab. Mine happened at 147bpm and I also have the wattage. Anything else is an estimate - might be close, might be wildly out. The talk test is a good way to tell if you're in Z2. In this video I feel I was crossing into Z3at the time, so effectively found the top and it was close to the measurement.

@@alwaysanotheradventureTnx. I realise all of us are different. I did a lactate threshold test when I was around 40, I ticked up at 105 whereas others ticked up at 140-160. Similar ages. I’ve also got a very low resting HR of 44 and my max HR both riding u der heavy load experience and a ramp test is 160. Main things like you said is to enjoy it and get fitter as we age. Thanks for the vid!!!!

Well spotted! I needed a shot riding that way to cut with the next one.

As part of that test I did a vo2max as well (next video Zones 3-5) and that set a new max HR of 173 for me.

@@alwaysanotheradventure thanks

Hi Colin - this is one by Redshift Sports. Top Shelf Handlebars by Redshift kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kN5_gq6Al66mfZs.html

Thanks, just what I'm looking for.

Thanks, just what I'm looking for.

I agree, it does look like that if you go by conventional assessment. And yet it can’t be - it’s borderline at best. Because I’m 5bpm below my measured lactate threshold, and that defines the top of Zone 2. I spent a long time puzzling over this one. I think the explanation is that I was not training in Z2, I was trying to find that border between Z2 and Z3. I’d want to be less breathless for training in Z2. I say as much in my script “This slight breathlessness estimates the top of Zone 2. You’d train below this level where you talk a little more freely.”

@@alwaysanotheradventure I think numbers supported by subjective feelings are the way to go. I like what Phil Maffetone says about picking the right aerobic training heart rate, in that he says you should.see noticeable improvements and if you don't it's likely you've picked a number that is too high. He also states that you should feel able to train at that heart rate day after day without excess fatigue and that after most workouts (except long ones), you should feel like you should be able to turn around and do the whole thing again

@@alwaysanotheradventure yeah I think data and subjective feeling is way to go. Just lots of people convince themselves they are in zone 2 when they are actually a good chunk above it. I like what Phil Maffetone says about correct aerobic training zone in that he says you should end a workout feeling like you could do the whole thing all over again (not for especially long workouts but for bread and butter ones) and that if you have the correct training heart rate you should get faster at that heart for many months without plateauing.

Snap

My LT1 is at 147 according to Napier. I agree it seems a bit high, but I have to assume they know their stuff. That said, the talk test at 142bpm sounds like the start of Z3. Attia (quoting San Millàn recommends this method (p240 of his book). My maxHR is 173 in the subsequent VO2max test on the same day. Attia goes on to say (once you know your maxHR) “…your zone 2 will correspond to between approximately 70 and 85 percent of that peak number…” recognising it’s a wide spread and people lie outside it. On my data it would put my top of Zone 2 at 138.

@@alwaysanotheradventure I thought Millan referred to 70-85% of ftp hr not max hr. Whatever the figures I would support your premise of doing a lot of Z2 work with the 20% Of Z5 training which I guess is the subject of another vlog. Very enjoyable and informative as ever.

@@johnbronze8630 Hey John, yeah, we'll not keep going on this, but the two videos have taken WEEKS to make, exactly because I was attempting to iron out some of the confusion. I can't post a Jpeg here but if you Google search "inigo san millan training zones" and click Images you'll see his diagram which is very helpful. He doesn't break it down into maxHR%. I've heard him and Prof Seiler resist this because they're estimates averaged out from a population size. And if you just search Zone 2 heart rate, you'll mainly get results that say 60-70% or 65-75% MaxHR. This is what I meant by folks not agreeing! San Millan's diagram has the start of Z6 (he uses 6) at 175bpm, so not too far away from my HRmax. His Z2 boundaries are 121bpm to 142 bpm. Mine were given as 121-147, so pretty close. His 6 zone model has two zones 3 and 4 between LT1 and LT2. Last time I looked GCN were doing this too. My coach just used three - the one to do most training in. The one to do a little hard training in. And the one between to avoid. Life was simpler!

There are two physiological markers which do fluctuate given the factors mentioned. Other boundaries are almost arbitrary.

In both cases it’s 75.5 cm from BB centre with same crank length. Bar height lower in the test but that’s as high as it could go. Also bike bar height too high while I tested new bars - now swapped out.

I was comparing the lab test set up to your position on the bike at around 1:32 where your legs are very straight at bottom dead centre.

Also I'm not a fan of Peter Attia or any of the self proposed exercise physiology gurus. They all tend to ignore the neuroscience, which is hopelessly ignorant and fantastically stupid.🤦

OK

Greetings Mr Smith. Is that your real name? I wouldn't get yourself too worked up about my numbers - they're for me to deal with and use for training. I'm talking to Napier about their conclusions. I'm not going to post a video for you. Nor am I going to follow-up this thread. It ends here. The principle remains accurate. Napier puts my LT1 at 147 and max HR at 173. LT1 is the top of Z2 in most 5 and 6 zone systems.

Worth noting that hr max and zones vary significantly across individuals. My mhr has always been over 200 and still is now in my late 50s. 147 I can hold comfortably for extended periods.

3-5 in next video

I'm sorry you feel that way Lars, and thanks for letting me know. May I point out that the last two videos were nothing to do with this series. One was gravel biking kzfaq.info/get/bejne/h5yUaJl03tmwlGw.html and one was backpacking kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qdupftp6q5fKiI0.html This video had more views in 24hours than both the others have had to date put together. So it's clearly popular with someone, although I take your point. The monthly podcasts are not part of the series either. My plan is to run a mix of episodes for as long as possible. May I also point out that you know nothing about me or my motivation, so to make daft statements like "You are consumed by the fact that you are getting old, this fact does no good for anybody" is insulting, hurtful and plain wrong.

@@alwaysanotheradventure Can say that i am also sorry that you fell that way. Don't want you to feel hurt and for sure don¨t want to insult you, and yes i could be wrong. As you pointet out, i know nothing about you and your motivation... this is also right. I only know what you have told in your videos. You want to keep on as long as possible, that i know. We all want to , this is human nature. I think I heard you say in one of your videos that you don't give a fu.. what other people think, am i right? You have a large majority who give you positive comments. so enjoy.

Yeah - hard truth to kick off with. But am I right?

@@alwaysanotheradventureNo, it's my GPS watch that reads slow when I'm running ! 😅Your Max HR is way higher than mine at 173, Mine is 144 on my Park run, when i am retching at the end 🤔 Doc reckons I have an irregular heart beat, so not sure if that affects it,

@@nicnak4475 😂 I was discussing the maxHR with an exercise physiologist last night, someone with a PHD who has actually written (co-authored) a text book on this stuff and conducted many, many tests like the one I did. 173 was WAY higher than my previous max recorded when riding and even racing - 167. He explained that does regularly happen in a test situation because you are pushing yourself to utter exhaustion (you'll see this in next Sunday's video) and don't even have to stay upright on the bike. It was a surprise to me. I'm not sure what an irregular heart beat would do? Have you seen the video with a cardiologist I made? Might be helpful? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pdKXbJN11p_FqWw.html