I wish the OE’s would have there 2-T’s have power-jet carbs, with TPS based timing maps and a det-counter / sensor under the plug (like 90’s Moto-GP 2-T bikes)….if it worked well for them, why re-invent the wheel to be worse than a carbureted bike with a bit more well vetted tech from the 90’s.

I think they should have stuck with the carb. Simple less weight no starter less wiring and no battery and makes way more power stock.

Hi there.... differences between HQV and KTM ( both fuel injected) makes no sense at all. Both machines has exactly the same ECU and mapping. Something else is making the difference...

@@jesusgarcia_pwc7457 Yes - every two stroke is a little different. But the ECU can't account for this....so they will run quite a bit different. Somewhat the point of the video.

@@jesusgarcia_pwc7457airbox

The temp and altitude is corrected for it just doesnt run awesome yet

I dont think the wmr dealer program suits us everyone will be on the same set up - why mod at all.

@@HPRaceDevelopment ummm, not with WMR lol...they are not doing the in depth pv change, pressure table change, etc, they are leaning it out...I was just pointing out that in the video you mentioned not being able to change any of it and others have..successfully! All good-

​@The Motocross Mod Channel Derrick doesn't like it when someone says something contrary to what he said. He also doesn't like other builders who are ahead of him in the game. Mirror mirror on the wall...who does the best mods of all? Mirror says, "Not you, Derrick." Thanks for sharing what you shared. You helping Derrick will go thankless as you already noticed. He most certainly wouldn't share the information with you that you shared with him. He likes to take what others have done or shown & claim it as his own. He's into grandstanding.

most people are not - but also most people expected efi to make a 2t like a 4t

If you like it - go for it. Our dyno doesn't seem to care for a lot of the products on the market

We have a video about this bike and an ECU. Dollar per dollar pretty hard to beat the ecu for the gain - with our maps of course. Changing parts on this bike without remapping is not going to work well.

yes - but Its gas temp along the pipe length not just egt exiting the cyl But some sleds with efi two strokes use egts as part of their strategies for success. They also run over a small rpm window making life much easier

tpi but not tbi

@@HPRaceDevelopment I wrote "and" - again, look in your TBIs air box!

TPI bikes have baro sensors since 2020. But the TBi bikes only have one sensor and it is the CCP

​@@mpetkov2158 there is nothing in the air box except rubber...

The ecu Power isnt the issue. These have highly advanced strategies with huge r&d money behind it 2 strokes are just extremely challenging vs a 4t Sleds are more simple they run essentially 1 rpm

Plenty of people been doing that

Awesome, I’ve just seen your videos today. Well done, they look great with real info! I heard a whisper twisted may have unlocked the ecu on these new bikes. What’s your thoughts? Any room for improvement with current hardware or do you reckon they need more engine management components? Cheers. Paul

Not good.

And then they stopped production cause of emission limits

@@dimmacommunication ? They made a 2024 850 Turbo. Who stopped production ?

@@JoelArseneaultKZfaqI've read Evinrude don't make outboards no more 😥

@@dimmacommunication Oh yes. They have discontinued some of their products. Who knows, maybe they will be back.

efi is easier on a sled or ski. but they have it solved far better than anyone else - with as modern of 2 stroke tech as ktm. Sleds are impressive

Nobody cares how good or bad that race bike is for emissions.

Im not sure why people felt this way. Its not magic…engines require the right amount of fuel and ignition to function - you cant just alter that to meet emissions etc…

@@adriangalvez5104 No argument about emissions for competition bikes, really my comments were about hoping we could get road legal 2 strokes similiar to the Yamaha RD's (RZ's), RG's etc. of yesteryear. Here in Europe we managed to get them for a good few years after they were banned in the US and Canada. I grew up riding them and would love a modern version.

@@HPRaceDevelopment It was just what I was reading when KTM introduced it, no expert here. I obviously was taken in by the manufacturers hype. There was comments about not having to mix oil and fuel, stuff like that.

The campfire where I burn my used 4 stroke oil puts of way more smoke than the 2 stroke..... Just saying.

I doubt that.... GET ECU for the TPI bikes is worse then a good remap of the standard ECU. And since GET are also stuck with the OEM sensors there is not so much magic to do.

hotter range plugs dont do lot for wot runs

@@HPRaceDevelopment wouldn’t it help to burn at lower rpm, plus it gets rid of any sputter?

@@ryanboening Not at WOT. A hot vs cold plug has more to do with plug fouling than power.

@@HPRaceDevelopment yes. But the bike is way too rich for a br10, it fouls out way too easily.

​@@ryanboening Derrick doesn't like to hear friendly advice. He wants to be the smartest guy in the room. That's why his room is always empty. 😉

Not familiar with apps or clt

@@HPRaceDevelopment Apps == accelerator pedal position sensor I have this sensor, because i use the drive by wire function. Clt == coolant temperature sensor Its the same as engine Temperatur sensor

@@z-tech-extrem You should have enough to make it work, we are talking two stroke right

@@HPRaceDevelopment yeah right!

Not that we have seen.

while none of your statements ring true for me - maybe in the near future you might be right. That said the used bike market is going to take a nose dive replacing a fuel pump and injector is a lot more expensive than a carb clean. trouble shooting electronic issues is time consuming and thus pricey - and the stock 300 tbi is a turd vs the previous generation carb 250sx on my dyno

@HPRaceDevelopment In the last 15 years that I've been riding, neither I nor any of my friends have ever needed to replace a fuel pump or fuel injector on any of our bikes. And we ride year-round in the southwest. That kind of stuff usually lasts the life of the bike. The only electronics issue's I've heard of that's somewhat common is a bad stator coil. And if something does go bad on an efi bike it can show you the code so you know what to fix. It saves time. This is like the argument of Estart when ktm was the first to do it and everyone hated on it. Now everyone has it and loves it. I was the first of my friends to adopt that too.

I dont think people understand how hard efi is to do on a 2t. the 250 and 300 are very slow per cc vs a 125. The pipe doesnt do as much - so the tune up is easier to nail

@@HPRaceDevelopment Yep and as much as I like the 300sx, my ‘22 250sx with a built motor absolutely smokes it(I know, apples to oranges comparison, but still), and is a better understood platform. No real reason to buy a TBI bike yet 🤷‍♂️. Time to buy another 4 stroke I guess

I do not understand how or why you would believe simply changes how the fuel is delivered will change the gas dynamics of a 2 stroke. DI will not widen out power - and yes plenty have done it. The only advantage is in emissions.

@@HPRaceDevelopment aprilia demonstrated very well although not for long how that can be done with di being able to run on a stratified charge that mixes air with the fuel in the injector then injects it into the combustion chamber. It measured in real time crank case pressure aswell as combustion chamber pressure. Being able to run and make power at 20:1afr below the pipe to make the egts skyrocket makes the wave faster thus making it work lower in the powerband to a big extent and also allowing it to run almost like a diesel at low rpm then fattening it up when the pipes loosing range to cool and slow the gases letting the pipe work more like a normal pipe along with some other even more sophisticated stuff that I dont understand well enough to describe here. This did require a whole lot of sensors and a very powerful Siemens ECU that's very pricey... just one of those combustion chamber sensors run like 1500 us at wholesale leading to this system being ludicrously expensive. However they did demonstrate it on the dyno and it did indeed make for a very 4stroke like powerband that kept going until out of range with very good emissions and I think something like between 40%-15% less fuel used to make the same power obviously depending on rpm. This system requires a crank driven air pump and fuel pump it's very complicated and very expensive so it didnt quite make it to production but it's been done. Farrari actually used this same tech in f1 for 4strokes that ran on the cusp of detonation and made some serious progress with it but only recently when the computers have been able to actually keep up in a multi cylinder setting. Mazda used a dumber version of this theory at a reduced level to be safer on their skyactiv engines of new. It's not practical to most but certainly can be done and with time it could become practical being as aprilia made it viable on engines as small as 50cc with very impressive number all around.

@@HPRaceDevelopment later I'll find some papers on the subject and post them here

@@oliverscorsim Ive read the data. You want slower waves at low rpm. Not faster. Just because you can burn leaner mixtures doesnt mean egt goes up. Egt at a certain lean ratio decreases not increases. Improving the power width and “low” end on a “high end” style engine will never be solved by how you supply the fuel.

on our dyno a tpi built out by tsp is 7-8 hp less than a stock tbi

Well that's why I typed this message. My bike has noticeably more power than 2 brand new 2024 TE 300 huskvarnas, And definitely more low end. My tpi has only 100 and 6 hours on it. You guys can claim what you want but we just physically proved it yesterday. Buddies bought 2 brand new bikes.

@@donaldblank8873 Prove on my youtube channel…it will dyno worse and drag race worse we have extensively developed on tpi bikes and always made more power on relocation of injectors to tbi - and improved power character

and smartcarb. both lectron and smartcarb make power and fuel economy improvement claims.

Lectron Pro

we have. i just choose not to publish it

Keihin runs better but less fuel efficient. That sums it up pretty much. I would only use lectron or smart for long distance rides. Otherwise properly tuned mikuni and keihin have more power everywhere it feels like. Especially right off throttle. Dyno might not show it but I went from a 300 with lectron, to a 250 with keihin + stic. 250 feels like it pulls harder off the bottom than the 300.

@@HPRaceDevelopment Publish it! Huge fan of your channel. Most transparent out there!

Our test pipes have egt and o2 o2 is about worthless though

@@HPRaceDevelopment on my drag sleds we have o2 bungs on all 3 cyl. And have egt for our play back about 6 inches from the piston

@@denniswilder3014 O2 is relevant around peak torque - a sled stays around peak torque/hp all the time under essentially constant rpm and long load time A dirtbike is transient all the time and an 02 sensor doesnt read even remotely close to accurate in transient additionally its not even close to accurate on either side of peak torque. Raw air/fuel mix unburnt reads “lean” and 2 strokes are no where close to 100 percent trapping ratio of whats delivered with 20-60 percent of the air fuel you deliver going out the ex and not returning to be burnt. Around peak torque its “best” with the highest percentage being trapped EGT isnt bad - but its relative to the engine - and of no use in transients. what makes dirtbikes hard is transients. If someone built a good low loss cvt system - i bet someone could pretty fast on a dirtbike like that and efi tuning would become trivial.

Try sell that on the moto community who hate it... It has a long way to go for MX and offroad usage - far harder demands on EFI than sleds

@@HPRaceDevelopment As far as 2 stroke dirt bikes. Yes. Pushing EFI is probably dumb. Especially if they aren't even going to use a pipe temp sensor. Carb and be done with it. As far as Snowmobiles. They are at an extremely high state of development, the demands high and varied. Power, reliability, efficiency EPA emissions and noise regs are being balanced and delivered. Close to 180 HP(Dynotech Research) out of 850cc. Mountain sleds at full throttle constantly, wild elevation changes 155" tracks with 3" paddles, huge load. Same engine can also trail ride, or idle along with kids all day long. 16MPG if your a good boy. 18-20 on a 600. FACTORY turbocharged 2 strokes for trail and mountain sleds. None of this is possible without direct or semi direct EFI. Also not possible without $$$$$. So the answer is....As you said. Just use a carburetor for the bikes.

These pipes need heat to work

@@paulmryglod4802 Ok

no - thats too slow to be useful

@@HPRaceDevelopment what then, some kind of pressure wave sensor in pipe? I'm sure they have some good default values that take the pipe into account.

@HP Race Development but I guess what you were saying is the two stroke is basically so simple chasing better performance rideability thru efi is futile. It's just never going to be what we expect it to be from efi.

Yeah but just how granular is the mapping differences for climate changes.

@@bloomerb4162 no idea man, I'm borrowing a 19 150. My 23 350 blew up after 48 minutes. Waiting on KTM corporate. They fuckin up worldwide

@@Runk3lsmcdougal I debated whether to get the efi or 22 model. Went with 22 tc250 and 22 150sx both with keihin + stic.

@@bloomerb4162 I think ya made the right move. I'm sure they'll get them ironed out but avoid this first 2 years id say

latest carb ktm 250 far stronger than previous generations on our dyno

its doubtful this bike or any of their tbi are meating emmissions

@@HPRaceDevelopment yes they do. KTM primarily build Enduros for the European Market. These need to fulfill the emission standards. The SX Models are just converted Enduros.

@@martinmielke8897 the current enduros are still TPI.....I can assure you these models will NOT pass real emissions standards. Maybe europe has some exemptions.

@@HPRaceDevelopment what I’m trying to say is that the SX 125 comes with an EFI because it’s based on the European Enduro Models which need to pass emissions. Yes the SX don’t need to pas them and carb would do it. But it is cheaper to produce one engine with some changes. And yes the current Enduros are TPIs but they will update in June to TBI.

I dunno this sx model is worse than a good carb bike on emissions

The electronic valve is fine - we use and work with on other projects but its no better than the previous valve design. Its used so ktm can track its position for the efi tune. The crankcase pressure sensor is similar but not exactly the same And the current efi 125 will get smoked by a previous gen carb bike. Until the hurdles that have yet to be solved regarding precise cycle to cycle fueling - it will never compete honda tried very hard in moto gp and never was as good as their carb effort Other markets have done decent but dont have the same demands mx does. We have been working hard on the efi ktms since the tpi came out and I feel have a far better handle on it than anyone in the mx world, but the bike gained weight, lost power, is less reliable, runs like garbage occasionally, and is far more expensive to sort out and maintain. I find zero positives to that when the carb version can and did work extremely well.

@@HPRaceDevelopment The powervalve is controlled by a servo motor, giving a tuner the ability to have full control of it and it frees up mechanical loss the old system relied on. The crankcase is the "intake manifold" per say, it's after the reed's and before the combustion chamber. The only place a map sensor can be placed. Honda found that the fuel injection made no difference in horsepower, but it gave the bike a more linear powerband. During that time in MotoGP corner speed wasn't important, the riders wanted the bike to feel more aggressive down the straights and even used the "big bang" timing sequence to further achieve that goal. I don't believe a carb bike would smoke the new efi, if you leave the bikes completely untouched from the factory and ride different environments. ie you have to change the jets to beat the efi bike. The efi bikes also have much more mid range power and i believe the top end is cut for emissions. VHM's 2020 and 2023 125 makes the same peak horsepower. Other markets are decent, but i probably dislike them just as much as you do. I agree that it's more expensive, harder to maintain, weighs more, and to get the bikes full potential it costs 1000's of dollars. There's a huge lack of support for the efi even from the tuners in the community, and the companies like GET and Vortex have yet to provide a product. Where i disagree is how effective the stock ecu calculates air fuel and the potential these bikes have to make more power than the previous generation. I think if we combine our knowledge we may be able to achieve just that.

@@Joe69 On my dyno no one has brought an EFI 125 or 250 that touches what we had for the carb bikes. We will be posting a video on an efi bike build up eventually - its shot and done but I need more track time to make sure it lives before I publish it. Behind closed doors honda rides hated the EFI. It was inconsistent and unpredictable. Mid corner it would spit you on your ass and honda worked very hard to solve the varied air flow values per cycle and never did solve it. The sensor technology exists to mimic what a carb sees but the computing HP to read and react is quite large on that. I think the crank case pressure sensor is a very smart way to know what's in the crank case each cycle - but on TBI injected bike you cant supply fuel for THAT cycle based off what you measure. The powervalve can be tuned via a tuner but so could the old one - and it was the best PV design within the industry. Correct - has mechanical losses. But so does the new EFI stator and electronic system. You can measure the losses on the dyno and it's quite large to power the full EFI system, fuel pump, and batter recharge/reg reg etc. People overlook that every watt you generate is more than a watt you loose to the tire. Time will tell - it's going to be "good" but IMHO not great for a long while. Thanks for the comments

@@HPRaceDevelopment very interesting. Stator definitely may rob more more power and the map sensor is definitely delayed a cycle. I’m going to contact you directly, I think we all want to see the best for these bikes.

sorry but a sc doesnt correct for temp

The "Smart Carb" loses power vs the Keihin & Mikuni as well.

@@HPRaceDevelopment Does the STIC block require more or less jetting for temp and elevation changes? Any idea what STIC is supposedly debuting today?

Stupid 😂

The emissions output is no better Thats my question of the move

The irony of this comment is hilarious. Carbs atomize far better than ANY efi system. Well proven. Two strokes will never be good at emissions and produce good power and runnnability to MY standards of runnability. If you use it for recretional trails and avg 5-15 hp usage all the time - they could be fine only if DFI is used. But If you want the ability to make race bike power that carbs had, throttle response and power character that carb bikes had, sorry not happening. Lots of raw fuel is wasted on just about every single stroke of a two stroke and goes right out the ex port never to return along with air we wished we had trapped. Doesn't matter if you TPI, TBI, or carb this - until the exhaust port is closed - by nature of their design, you dont keep all the charge in side the cylinder. No efi system is currently doing a great job of cyclical variance of air flow and matching the desired fuel flow to this - currently the EFI systems are doing their "best" to produce "and average" that is the "target" over multiple cycles. This isn't too hard or challenging in low power, low rate of change usage - but as the engine power picks up and the influence of the pipe increases - so does the cycle to cycle variation.

ha well said

Hp is just numbers. It rides better than pre 2023.

Spend you money wisely…he also says a ktm 500 makes 70 hp…

even just the design and location of everything around the throttle body looks horrible

yeah tpi sucks - i have to say i disagree with your comment

It will improve - we've already gotten them very solid...just not AS good as our best carb bikes.

ill ask the sun to move!

bring a 45 hp 125 to my dyno in an mx bike

@HPRaceDevelopment I didn't say mx bike.mabe you don't dyno kart engines.

I think on a four stroke we make more on efi now. It has opened up tremendous avenues not previously possible.