TWO Archery LEGENDS Do Battle.. MFJJ and IRONWILL BILL
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2 жыл бұрынTWO Archery LEGENDS Do Battle.. MFJJ and IRONWILL BILL .. Come along for a deep and nerdy arrow conversation with two archery legends. We're joined by Ironwill Bill and MFJJ to discuss how to create optimum arrow flight. This is a really fun conversation and debate between two great thinkers in the archery world. #ElkShape #ABT #tinktink
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@HillDill 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ has waaaaay to much practical knowledge and experience to not have a passionate opinion. I'm an engineer as well. MFJJ is the expert technician that's lived all the problems and has to remind the engineers they're not always right. love the videos and knowledge guys.
@caninphx 2 жыл бұрын
same, I'm an engineer as well, thankfully.i grew up on the tools and tall with the guys in the field when designing or making decisions. has helped a lot to make things work and come up with the best solution. to many engineers have the hollier then know attitude and have never spent any time actually doing the practical side. this right here is showing the difference btw the two.
@jcarry5214 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, but they agreed 98 percent, even in the hypotheticals.
@h2olove 2 жыл бұрын
They are agreeing on more than they disagree. Testing and slow motion cameras would resolve some of this. Bill understands the underlying physics better, MFJJ is seeing the variability injected by imperfect humans.
@IronWillOutfitters 2 жыл бұрын
As a follow up, I built two sets of arrows that all weighed 504 grains. One set was 250 spine which should be too stiff and the other set was 300 spine which should be optimal. I shot two from each set out of my 72 lb VXR though a chronograph. According to MFJJ, the optimal spine should give you more energy and momentum due to the way it bends. My theory is that too stiff a spine won't hurt you with a well tuned bow and it won't have a lower energy or momentum just because it bends less. The results: The 250 and 300 spine arrows all had a speed of 288 fps. Also, both sets of arrows had the same point of impact at 100 yards. Therefore, they had the same energy and momentum coming off of the bow and down range.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Word up Iron Will Bill! Thanks for sharing!!
@04bensims 2 жыл бұрын
Bill, when you mentioned arrow frequency in the video I almost clapped. Higher frequency (i.e., stiffness) will recover faster (i.e., be more stable) than lower frequency when potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. I’m not sure why this concept is hard to grasp and I think you nailed it. You looked at my arrow back in February, and I asked if you thought 250 spine was too much for 135head+50hit+25collar (210 total) for a 65lb bow. You said no and we talked briefly about it. For reference, I’d save ~14gr by being “optimally” spined at 300. This 14gr change would give me about 4fps extra, very slightly higher kinetic energy, and very slightly lower Momentum. I *could* then add that 14gr back into the end if the arrow, going from 210gr to 225 up front. But then….I’d be compounding a spine issue. And that’s where I think MFJJ missed on this. What we would call slightly over-spined means I can be less concerned with point weight changes AND self-assured with good arrow stability.
@alsmith7316 2 жыл бұрын
Quick question, was the bow tuned to the 250, or 300 spine arrow?
@chasehaynie879 2 жыл бұрын
Ok but how did you acheieve the same weight with a higher gpi in the 250 spine? If you shortened it then you have less FOC than a 300spine arrow at the same length. Also he never argued that a stiffer spine wouldn't give you the same/better results as appropriate spine however to go stiffer you have to affect a different variable and are unable to isolate the spine as the only changing component. Also what did you gain with the stiffer spine? Same speed, same trajectory, lower FOC. Now if you did the same test with an arrow if the same weight of a 350 or 400 spine you theoretically should see a difference as then you would be underspined.
@bowcartel6978 2 жыл бұрын
Watching MFJJ was like that scene from Goodwill Hunting when he tells him “you could’ve got the same education at the public library for $1.50 in late charges” 😂
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
lol
@alpulley4894 2 жыл бұрын
Haha no joke My boy MFJJ is wicked smart
@ericlester6497 2 жыл бұрын
These two need to be on a podcast 2+ hours lol
@painfreearchery 2 жыл бұрын
Engineering mind talking archery + archery shop guru talking archery = learning for everyone else
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Pretty fun to listen!
@brucescott7023 2 жыл бұрын
That was a lot for my little brain to try take in, but MFJJ made it sound like common sense cheers for sharing this awesome video...
@ruebencaballero9511 2 жыл бұрын
Awesome stuff right there! Appreciate everything you guys do pushing out the great content, no better channel out there!
@temrenavofficial 2 жыл бұрын
Great video Dan!, I agree with Bill, I used 420 grain arrows for two years, but now I’m using almost the same set up that he has, it’s 535 total weight, and I definitely shoot much better groups at 70 yards with fixed blade and have more penetration, period!
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Glad it’s working well for you!
@HuntsT 2 жыл бұрын
I mean I respect Josh's tenacity, but science and physics are the game we play. It's also how my brain works and I agree completely with Bill. Although I actually do believe that some flex can increase speed much like the right amount of flex in a golf club driver shaft can increase speed. To much flex can hurt you, to little won't be bad it just won't perform as great as it possible could. When an arrow flex it creates potential energy like a spring compressed. It will release that potential as it leaves the string. As for layman's terms that's the best way to describe it. Another thing to consider is the draw force curve. If it stacks a lot of force into the arrow at the beginning ( of release) it will flex more and sooner and the arrow will start to recover more as its leaving the string. If it applies more force towards the end (towards riser) the because the arrow is already moving it won't flex as much and will react differently off of the string.
@wvbowhunter1 2 жыл бұрын
Love this video. Many channels only cover what they think and never allow for a different point of view to be shown/discussed. Being able to talk about different points of view makes you confirm your belief or change and get better.
@ukukid 2 жыл бұрын
This was a great video. Love hearing the different points of views. Also Elk Shape you guys are really awesome group of folks. Keep up the great videos.
@taylorfranklin1114 4 ай бұрын
This conversation is a textbook case of “on paper VS in reality”
@brendenlyon3378 2 жыл бұрын
One is talking theoretical and one is talking practical. I get where they are both coming from and both are saying the same thing. I feel like MFJJ just has a big ego he wanted stroked.
@danmartin9850 Жыл бұрын
Bingo.
@jesselost05420 2 жыл бұрын
Two guys talking about getting stiffer and the mass of their shafts haha.
@bigwestreviews4933 2 жыл бұрын
This is what we need to see more of as archers. This is fantastic.
@sarjeant503 2 жыл бұрын
This is epic! Dunno how y'all got through the filming without laughing over the audio the whole time.
@AnalogAssassin1 2 жыл бұрын
This is amazing content...keep this going Dan, this is great for archery, hunters and the industry tech push. MasterSwimBaiter
@coreybonetta4871 2 жыл бұрын
Great video. Love this type of content!
@christiantorres6118 2 жыл бұрын
What an episode. I'm suprised someone didn't lay down the ground rules. "No low blows. No gouging of the eyes. Absolutely no biting. No stabing with an broadhead or arrow. Alright, let's keep it clean gentlemen". We need more. Is there a part 2?
@BY-dq3mt 2 жыл бұрын
I gotta watch that again lol, way over my head. Great stuff.
@jeff_8789 2 жыл бұрын
Received my elkshape grips yesterday can't wait for weather to clear up to get to hit the range tm and try it out really like the look and feel with the added adhesive pad thats included great job on them
@CFIRST58 2 жыл бұрын
Awesome Video!! Thank You Elk Shape for making this video!! I am a long time subscriber to MFJJ and podium archery, MFJJ is one of my all time favorite people to watch and learn from.
@brpnw4r94 2 жыл бұрын
Hell, I was waiting for a dance off. MFJJ sweeping the dust off the floor with his break dancing moves against Bills moonwalk like Boogaloo II. All that talk about shaft and mass had me cracking up.
@jkeithhowe 2 жыл бұрын
I received a swag bag last month. It was the best unexpected surprise I've ever had from a company/shopping experience. Keep up the good work gentlemen.
@WoodsandWater72 Жыл бұрын
Man that is so cool that you were throwing so much GREAT STUFF if people's orders, that just shows who you/yall are and I'm glad to see people out there doing what yall are doing. I do wish I knew about this! Because that's when I ordered new arrows and 4 packs of AAE max veins from some random company. I would've with NO doubt went through elk shape and as a matter a fact after the video I'll go check some stuff out that I " need " haha keep rocking it yall!
@shippadventures 2 жыл бұрын
Great video and knowledge. Didn't get any goodies in my order, maybe next time. Keep up the good content.
@codymuske4309 2 жыл бұрын
That was epic. You can watch Bill's head running NASA formulas the entire time MMJJ is talking about something. Pretty cool and fun to watch.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Bills a G no doubt !
@kenruppel85 2 жыл бұрын
Good stuff guys. Keep it coming Dan, wish there was a MFJJ at every archery shop.
@h-minus2212 2 жыл бұрын
An earlier commenter made the point regarding arrow setups vs. dangerous game (the big bears, water/cape buffalo) and how they would differ from the two commentators' elk arrows. Those calculations, and the rationale behind them, would be fascinating. Thank you for the thoughtful content.
@alexanderkloss1368 2 жыл бұрын
This got nerdy and knowledgable at the same time very quick! Great points of you on both sides but logically speaking MFJJ makes more sense… Great video!!!!
@TheSchmuel 2 жыл бұрын
Ive never been able to get arrow Underspined to tune with fixed blade boradheads.. but Ive never had an issue being overspend and getting a great tune
@QcConnection 2 жыл бұрын
I think Bill is 100% right. MFJJ focuses on weight saving. But he didn’t want to hear what Bill was trying to say. A stiffer spine WILL give you more stable flight if you are keen on going heavier on the shaft. What Bill was trying to say is that if there is a compromise to make, you better go stiffer. Arrow paradox is a loss of energy and an unnecessary variable with compound bows.
@estimationm.e.i.mecanique7643 2 жыл бұрын
I agree.
@roetru 2 жыл бұрын
Mind blown... love all the info🤯
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Word! Thanks for watching
@randyhutch50 2 жыл бұрын
This was great
@ericgrant8783 2 жыл бұрын
You’re really close to what I have learned over the years. the long bow your arrow needs to flex to the left if you were right and shooter so that it can perform the archers paradox and work its way around the riser. If you’re shooting a compound the first initial bend of the arrow needs to be on top so that it does not wobble left and right. I use a process called indexing, which is basically finding the initial bend of the arrow it most definitely will assist in guiding and tightening your groups. You can go a little stiff on your spine however not too light. I believe in shooting a light arrow and loading the front. I shoot 20% FOC. With a gold tip airstrike 300 spine 100 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead. 464 grain arrow. Too much flex in the shaft will take away penetration. Upon impact the shaft will flex reducing penetration. A little bit stiffer will drive through. Good luck and Keep on keeping on.
@DerrellD1988 2 жыл бұрын
Love the video! Question, if the arrow does not flex left or right,. Why is one of the option to correct a left or right paper tare to go up or down in spine? Keep up the kick ass content!
@DIYSportsman 2 жыл бұрын
Fun conversation. I think they proved that you can tackle the same problem with different limits and both be right for the set of assumptions. If you set parameters of say, 500 grains and 15% foc, then using as stiff of a shaft as possible to hit those probable doesn't have many downsides. But then MFJJ is saying, well, maybe you want to set different initial parameters and a stiffer, higher gpi shaft won't allow you to get there without giving something up. The theoretical side should be easy to test for anyone with a Labradar. Build two shafts with identical mass and diameter but different spines. Measure initial velocity and final velocity at some long distance. If "optimal" is better than too stiff, you should see that in the velocity numbers.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Word up!! Thanks for sharing
@torreyintahoe 7 сағат бұрын
It seems like the direction in which the arrow bends is going to depend on which way the spine is facing. Isn't that the reason for nock tuning and having your spine facing the same way with each arrow?
@jamesibarra2394 2 жыл бұрын
check out the "blazer vane video" shows the slow motion flex in arrows
@AlecAllphin 2 жыл бұрын
I have been wanting to upgrade to the hamskea trinity for awhile because you guys talk so highly of it. Just placed my order! 🤘🏻
@afidbhawkins3173 2 жыл бұрын
Won't regret it👍👍
@trob205 2 жыл бұрын
We need 2 hours of this on a podcast. With my personal testing I’ve always found the stiffer the spine the easier it tunes and more forgiving the tunes are, so I’d have to side with Bill. But the only way to go stiffer is go heavier, and the heavier the slower. And the slower the more forgiving (assuming the bow is properly tuned) which has the potential to become slow enough to not matter…. Need some high speed footage and proof from both Bill and MFsJJs theory.
@outlawcustombows 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, optimum spine and arrow tune does give an increase in velocity. Less wasted energy through flex, noise, absorption etc means more energy to the arrow, more energy into an object with a fixed mass translates to more velocity. Pretty simple. Thats why you tune your arrow to your bow NOT the other way around.
@kaelinchee9243 2 жыл бұрын
Wish you guys posted to Australia!!!
@thomasehrhart4461 2 жыл бұрын
I would think a 250 spine with only 170gn up front would be too stiff unless you are shooting 80lb draw. Are the 2" Flex Fletch podium archery edition vanes going on with Arizona ez fletch max left helical?
@AndyBalllz Жыл бұрын
This conversation should be had with the ranch fairy 🧚♂️ ✨️
@jasonard7227 2 жыл бұрын
ive never had a problem being over in spine now being under is another thing. my fletched and bare shaft have same point of impact as well thats with my center shot at 13/16ths on a Mathews
@d500mag2 2 жыл бұрын
SMMFH DURING RELEASE longbow arrow flex is left/right compound arrow flex is up/down Then rotation starts and both flex through 360 degrees. Imagine that, an arrow searching for the imperfections in your tuning and form.
@beaubellamy2999 Жыл бұрын
Is that the deal with the TKOs though with the woven steel fibers? They’re trying to achieve a stiffer, more durable spine in the same weight?
@ViCtOrZ803 2 жыл бұрын
I just ordered a little mini elk from your website Dan. I must’ve just missed your extra goodies giveaway by a couple days bummer.
@donovanstockton44 2 жыл бұрын
Pure legend. Both men.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
word!
@justindunn3496 Жыл бұрын
So isn’t the exodus MMT arrow/firenock aero concept 1.0. solving the issue or giving you the best of both worlds? they’re adding a 6 inch internal carbon footer to a stepped insert which adds to FOC and also stiffens the shaft.
@rocknthamix 2 жыл бұрын
Nice!
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@jcarry5214 2 жыл бұрын
Anyone know how that black rifle instant is? I Cannot do starbucks Via again this year. Can't do it, won't do it. Too much of it over time, it's like drinking tacks. Laird's instafuel is decent. But the coconut at high altitude on three hours sleep... better than VIA, but not great.
@steven_farmer89 2 жыл бұрын
I must of just missed the extra goodies, I ordered about a week ago. Guess I’ll have to buy more stuff lol
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Keep buying lol - tc
@steven_farmer89 2 жыл бұрын
@@ElkShape already bought more, hopefully I'll get the golden ticket this time lol
@alsmith7316 2 жыл бұрын
@@steven_farmer89 I purchased after the release of this video and did not get anything either. I am done with this "game"
@davidgunderman3968 2 жыл бұрын
It seemed like they were both ultimately on the same page. Bill was talking about the theoretical and building towards something before MFJJ hijacked it and came in with the practical piece. Great content. Keep it coming! :D That MFJJ arrow sounds perfect to me.
@Jimbowiejr 2 жыл бұрын
Like learning why what I do works or doesn't work. Plus I have a dozen iron wills with a bunch of collars and deep six inserts. I'm broke but happy 😎
@danmartin9850 Жыл бұрын
Bill’s comments on a stiffer spine are right. However, my question is would the correct spine have more potential energy (IE speed) because it loads up like a spring instead of just getting thrown like a javelin? Interesting conversation nonetheless.
@kevinwright3564 2 жыл бұрын
Two guys getting their geek on.
@alsmith7316 2 жыл бұрын
Sorry to say, I got random "nothing" with my order. A bit disappointed, oh well. Good discussion as usual though.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Got to play the game to win! Thanks for the support
@wirth315 2 жыл бұрын
Wish they mentioned FPS on their arrow builds of 505 and 455 grains with 75lb draw weight. Both list all the detailed specs but no FPS so that leaves us hanging. I’m building new arrows for Elk 2022 and will build a 30” arrow that hits 275 FPS in my 65lb bow. Weight of arrow will be max I can push to maintain FPS.
@baggedram99 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ.... wild man haha you know your stuff sir an the fact you speak it so well without hesitation speaks volumes.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Man has been around the game for a minute!
@baggedram99 2 жыл бұрын
@@ElkShape it shows!
@baggedram99 2 жыл бұрын
is the comment below legit? doesn't seem like it to me.
@DB.KOOPER 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ's logic is more sound and he's got the experience. I shoot 260 spine, 29.5" length with a 90gr half-sert and 150-200gr broadheads giving me over a 600gr set up at most. The arrow flexes because its trying to accelerate the mass of the broadhead as its being pushed by the string as its released.
@jonesoutdoors9901 2 жыл бұрын
I can see both sides of this here. Ed Ashby always said he wanted to be a certain distance away from an animal so that the arrow had time to recover and entered the animal in a straight line…iron will bill is proposing a potential for faster recover or little recovery needed. Mfjj is talking from a tuning standpoint and what he has seen the best results out of.
@ericspearo5731 2 жыл бұрын
So, outside of the flex of the arrow. Are you saying it’s better to have a heavier front end heavier broadhead and lighter more stiff arrow to punch through your target? OR Would a heavy evenly distributed arrow weight with a lighter sharp front end be better to drive through your target? What makes sense to me is having a heavy arrow with a light sharp front end with the mass behind the broad head to drive through your target. Rather-Than a lighter arrow with a heavy front end. For example last year I used a carbon arrow with 150 grain broadheads but this year I am going with a heavier FMJ arrow and a 100 grain broadhead, this year total arrow weight will be about 500 grains. That just makes more sense to me but if I’m wrong I am wrong. What are some opinions and data to back up either argument.
@_DeFiNiTeLy_Not_BrAd_ 2 жыл бұрын
The best data we've had was the Dr Ashby studies. I believe they're doing a modern one with compounds, but according to that data, heavier front of center is better than just mass alone.
@04bensims 2 жыл бұрын
Unless there’s science/data behind it, all opinion is anecdote. I’m sure MFJJ knows a lot. But if we’re going to split hairs here, I’ll take the cat that’s giving data backed in Physics. MFJJ sort of gave away his tell towards the end when he mentioned more FOC making a more lethal projectile, and Bill just smiled. I don’t get all the smug disdain for engineers/intellectuals. It’s not like Bill just sits around doing math all day. Dude has put arrows in A LOT of animals. MFJJ spoke pretty definitively about over-spined arrows being an issue because it puts too much weight in the shaft and that weight could be better used in the front of the arrow. Assuming a 0.5gpi difference between 300 and 250 spine arrows, a 28.5in arrow, with 175gr in front of the arrow, and a fixed arrow weight of 485gr; the difference in FOC would be around 1% between being “optimally” spined and over spined.
@paulheberling2750 5 ай бұрын
Bills great! MFJJ great too! Both legends
@Des_Chu 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ!!! Smiling with him the whole time!
@lawrencefranck9417 2 жыл бұрын
I may be wrong but I think you are talking about nodes to optimize the compound. Honeycomb filled arrow would come close zero flex.
@_DeFiNiTeLy_Not_BrAd_ 2 жыл бұрын
Now were thinking, i like it.
@Timberdam Жыл бұрын
MJ has EVIDENCE BASED KNOWLEDGE and mechanical common sense... Not just theory , he's done it or tested it with and without Dan ! These two continue to try to invent a better Mouse Trap.. Always new ideas.. Great benefit to the Archery community!!
@danmartin9850 Жыл бұрын
So has Bill.
@hoganfan2006 Жыл бұрын
What if the weights don’t vary by spine stiffness? Victory RIP TKO specifications: 250 (9.0 gpi), 300 (8.8 gpi), 350 (8.8 gpi), 400 (9.0 gpi)
@vancelyndon3416 2 жыл бұрын
Iron will is speaking of a higher modulus carbon would give you less flex at the same weight or less. That is probably true but this would most likely also result in a much less durable arrow. Maybe not but I know this is true in carbon fishing rods. Sure manufacturers can build a higher modulus and therefore lighter,stiffer arrow(or fishing rod blank-more sensitive) but you also sacrifice durability tremendously. What good is the stiffer arrow if it’s also extremely brittle and shatters like glass? MFJJ is on point!
@jeremymclachlan6089 2 жыл бұрын
Wish you would ship to Canada. Would love to buy some swag and support!
@shawnwiens965 2 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@CR1981- 2 жыл бұрын
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
@TyrantExterminator1776 2 жыл бұрын
Tell MFJJ to check out the BISHOP ARCHERY REBAR ARROWS, Highly doubt they flex.
@wilmerdecontie5174 2 жыл бұрын
I think I'll have to watch this video a few times over just to kind of understand what they are talking about.
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
I felt the same way - tc
@tmalonso Жыл бұрын
Technically speaking, you can increase stiffness a bit by decreasing shaft diameter a bit too…which wouldn’t have the same ‘mass adding’ issue mfjj is mentioning here
@billyjohnson811 2 жыл бұрын
Lighter broadhead = stiffer the arrow Footers/long inserts/Snyder core = stiffer arrow. Think about.
@joshuaryan980 2 жыл бұрын
MSJJ just took Iron will bill to school
@caninphx 2 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't say he took him to school they were kind of arguing the same thing. just from different angles. Iron will bill being the typical academic and approaching it based on theory, which what he said is 100% correct however it's not achievable at this time with the materials we have or it's a super heavy arrow (aka bishop arrows). shich is what MFJJ was saying from the practical side and instead using the spine that is optimal to induce a faster recovery out of the bow, without having a super heavy arrow. there is a video out there on how the string/riser impacts your arrow flight for recurves and compounds and I want to say it was slow motion video. either way I watched it a few years back and why I also don't believe in the left/right deviations in arrows based on the spine, unless your shooting a bow that is not properly tuned and your inducing a lot of torque, then they can deviate.
@chrisnewhart673 2 жыл бұрын
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound 😵💫😵💫😵💫
@jcarry5214 2 жыл бұрын
DAN, you gonna shoot bill's left bevels? Come on... do it for usss.
@alpulley4894 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ for the WIN!! The other guy has book knowledge and this vs Actual real world EXPERIENCE from MFJJ....... No comparison MFJJ all day, every day. The other guy go play with your TI calculator.
@rogerramjet7567 Жыл бұрын
Iron Will fixed. Tight groups, pass through penetration. What more could anyone ask for ???
@naturalstatehunter5591 Жыл бұрын
😂😂😂
@NPC-fl3gq 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ isn't responding to the question being put to him. Instead of answering the engineers question he's changing it so he can claim to have won the argument. Sorry, but that's how it is.
@jordanmotruk5827 Жыл бұрын
MFJJ is just one of those people who thinks that the louder you say something the more true it is. The first thing he says (2:40) is something that’s not really relevant to the conversation, is designed as a” gotcha,” and (surprise) is completely false 😂 Arrows vibrate in a longitudinal wave, much like a guitar string: m.kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nJepncZ836-4aZc.html
@LFC911 2 жыл бұрын
I don't know who won but MFJJ wasn't taking anything from IWB!
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
it wasn't about winning, it was about sharing information
@obionewheelkenobi689 2 жыл бұрын
Why are we just talking about this? Why not prove it?
@hunterdolanch8725 2 жыл бұрын
MFJJ is showing why he's MFJJ he's out #micdrop
@rage9720 2 жыл бұрын
I think MFJJ won that one lol
@metro9636 2 жыл бұрын
Just show the math!
@ElkShape 2 жыл бұрын
Good idea for your own video
@metro9636 2 жыл бұрын
@@ElkShape sarcastic crybabies
@michaelvstheworld3680 2 жыл бұрын
Cheese and Rice. Both of you are killing animals right? Then both are philosophy's are right. That said, I guarantee Josh ain't taking that weak shit on a moose or African dangerous game hunt. 🤣
Brandon Mcdonald
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