This is classic dunning Kruger. The torque plate is supposed to help with roundness not taper. So you need to measure at the top of bore at points 12oclock, 130 and 3 o’clock etc to see how out of round it is.

Great video Joe!! Like Rick said there is no hard cut rule. I bet Rick is an incredible wealth of knowledge definitely enjoy more videos with him. I think it depends on the material. This is an opinion of mine based off of my experience and materials engineering, and especially for old Chryslers. Some examples from my experience and working with some incredible machinists: • My 54 Chrysler Firepower hemi block is incredibly hard, so the value of a torque plate is negligible • However, with the thin cast iron Buick 455, I would recommend it, because not only is it a thinner casting, but it also contains less additives like nickel to the casting alloy. I would recommend for a Buick, but I don’t think it’s necessary. • Now for the 1UZFE, which is an all aluminum casting, I highly recommend the torque plate. Final note, it’s very important to use the fasteners that you’re going to use on the build itself. So, if you’re going to use head bolts use head bolts, and if you’re going to use head studs, use head studs, because they clamp differently. Not necessarily the exact same ones, especially if they’re torque to yield. Look forward to more videos with Rick great job Joe

This is a prime example of the quality of videos Joe puts out awesome info and as always theory is one thing but facts are what prove the theory in to truth quantify everything! Great job Rick and Joe!

The error is where you measured. If you gauged where the head bolts are you'd see a different story. The most obvious is if it was honed without a plate then honed after it's run with a plate. Try this, hone a cylinder without a plate, clean it well, then spray some layout dye, let it dry, then install a plate and take one light swipe with a hone and you'll see the low spots where the stones don't touch. This is why you use a plate. A block like a 400 Chev would be the most obvious.

I grew up in a machine shop I've seen high dollar blocks and low budget blocks and this dating back to the 70s and seen both of these being extremely abused and they survived many runs without all this new theology and technology it's the care and respect and tenacity that you get from your machinist and machine shop the Avandamet in technology is great but the care and respect that you get from your builder is most important.

Just goes to show...the internet experts arent always right..In fact theres so much info being spread all over that its only when you can actually see it as it happens, you know theres truth in it...Thanks for sharing Joe..Interesting for sure!!

I have an old 440 project that had to go .060” over and then honed with a torque plate. I borrowed a dial bore gauge and saw some bores as much as +/- .002” out of round! I called the shop and asked them and the guy said “sounds about right, we’ve seen some of the cheap GM crate motors where the piston will rub going into the cylinder, then be fine after the heads are torqued on.” This shop has a good reputation and all, but I’ll be getting back to this motor soon and a racer friend recommended another shop to go to because I have a couple other things to get done and I will DEFINITELY review with him the things I found lol.

Good info to know, Joe. This mainly gives piece of mind when you're doing honing at home. If you're building an all-out race engine, yeah do a torque plate at a machine shop. But for a simple street engine at home, no big deal.

It would be interesting to see it checked for roundness a few places around the bolts as well not just straight across

I can tell you from first hand experience that using a torque plate has more advantages than disadvantages and is worth the extra effort. There are many different factors that can creep in and cause cylinder distortion and as always it’s the details that are simple and seem to be overlooked or disregarded as overthinking. The ways a cylinders become distorted in any block. 1.) Reduced cylinder wall thickness. Remember the water jackets in cast blocks are just that. Cast and have to be assumed as varied in thickness. 2.) Blind head bolt holes that have debris in them. Threads have to be thoroughly cleaned. I do not care for thread chasing taps in this instance. They can leave debris in the threads. So I generally use a tap that is not dull and thoroughly clean the threads all the way to the bottom of the hole. Most important is making sure the holes do not have any fluids filling them. Honing oil in particular. You can not compress liquids and even though you’re not supposed to use a impact on engine fasteners I’ve seen honing oil cause more distortion to a cylinder because honing oil was left in the head bolt holes. 3.) Any course departure from perpendicular by the threaded head bolt hole that causes a less than perfectly straight stud or head bolt engagement. These fasteners will try to right themselves more as torque is increased at the expense of deflection around the bore. Thinner the block the more distortion and this should never be assumed. 4.) Blocks with threads flush to the deck surface. Those threads should always be chamfered but take into consideration that the chamfer will have eccentricity with the centerline of the thread and if the unthread shank of the studs is resting on an eccentric chamfer it can cause misalignment and result in cylinder distortion. Ford got this right for the most part. Later engine designs have caught on evidently. These are just a few of the primary considerations. As the engine builder, especially people using head studs, you will want to make for sure and for certain that your head bolt holes in your heads are not imparting stress on the studs in any direction. The head should cleanly slide down the studs. I know it is difficult to tell, but one easy way is to place your heads on the block dowels without any studs in the block and then use some layout fluid on the interiors of the head bolt holes. Then screw the studs into the block and do a half torque down check. If you see thread patterns in your head bolt holes on the cylinder heads I’d suggest going to work on them and making them clear. If you have a dial bore gauge you can simply torque the heads down on the block and check the cylinders from the bottom. This has saved me many headaches. Angle milled heads that should have corrected head bolt holes should never be trusted in this detail. They will flat wreck a very nice cylinder and your rings will never seem to seat and bad leak down tests will be in your future. I know it is tough to imagine. It took me a little longer than I want to admit to recognize these issues myself. Even that cast iron block is malleable. Consider it like plastic when making these checks. Believe that if these items are there, they will distort and cause problems. Do not assume that one particular block series is perfect. Mis-drilled holes are more common. Dull taps are even more common. Any block out there is subject to any of these imperfections and finding out the hard way isn’t in anyone’s interests. This is the facts that the trade has taught me first hand. This is the suck part of the trade. Assuming makes and ass out of all of us.

I can see one reason why, the bolt holes are far away from the bores. Yes each Block series is different.My bb mopars generally have About .002 out of round. I personnally check at least every 90 degrees. I find some Blocks, chevies for sure that the cylinder bores scallop around the top 1.5 inches down the cylinder YIKES! with the plates,because the bolts are rather Close to the bores. Pontiacs distort alot also.Always enjoy your videos, keep them coming!

I have No Doubt, this engine will benefit from the work you both did. I still am a big advocate for torque plate honing. I can tell you all on here, I will always use a torque plate when and where possible. I know it is more work, and additional cost. But it is free Horse Power! Whether you are building a car or truck going back and forth to work, a grocery getter, a weekend warrior. Or a all out race car. If they, the plates, did not work. No one would make them and no one would purchase them. While I respect other people's opinions. I have my own opinions, and that is based on my own experience. Simply put, I have to say if you can afford to do it, do it. Do what you can afford to do. Thanks for all who read this. Sorry it was so long, EM.

I haven't yet had any experience with torque plates but this will be helpful if I do. Thanks for sharing.

Awesome. I enjoy watching your channel!

Sounds like a good engine, all the best to you all

I wouldn't know either way, I just drop stuff off at the machinist and pick it up when they say its done. But I haven't built to many Hot Rod motors in my day haha. Great Video Joe!

Awesome video Joe! Ya'll got a lot of knowledgeable folks over your way! Thanks for sharing!

Interesting experiment. Good to know that the block is in good shape.

Nice video. Looks like some nice work.

Yup, we have all heard the rumors...but facts are facts...great video!

Thanks for this video . I have to get my block honed and was told to make sure the shop had a torque plate . just a street car so I know I don't have to stress .

Science! Very well qualified information. It's good to see specifics of what 'distortion' really means. This also works as a quick example from an expert of what and where they are looking for problems. Great work of finding someone with more experience and letting him speak to an audience! We can't all be experts at everything, so knowing who to give a voice is super important.

I have always “read and heard” that Mopar used a much higher nickel content in their blocks over other manufacturers, not sure whether that’s true and if so how long that continued. Very interesting video working with a fella who clearly is incredibly knowledgeable. I’m ready to go get my engine and take it to him.

My uncle. A machinist that built thousands of engines for street and race applications from 1957 to 1998 until he retired. Never had a torque plate in his shop.

I'm defying your request and commenting at 30 seconds! Of course, as per my usual, I have nothing of value to add anyway. Love the vids keep 'em coming.

Another interesting vid Joe. Well its good this block didn’t distort much but i guess if your next block does distort more you might detect a problem with that block. Given your experienced race buddy said some blocks distort “massively” makes me think its worth checking before pouring big money into the build.

Great video Joe! I was about to purchase a set of BBM BHJ plates. However for street use and in an N/A application (less cylinder pressure than boosted applications) I would agree with this assessment in your video. However, in a higher horsepower application and boosted applications, I personally would prefer the torque plates.

Great video , Joe ! He did say "some move a lot and some don't " . Which ones don't ? do you want to take a chance ? IMO, even a basic rebuild deserves quality machine work .

nice test !

I believe it depends on the quality of the block and year and type of engine . I'd still have the machine shop check each block this way before honing and if its a spec or 2 off then it dont need the torque plate . he even said some do distort bad

Good video Joe

I heard Windsor and thought I was watching fomoco Joe great video

Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸

I dig that shirt

Shes on it!

Yee Haw, good stuff!!

I wonder what causes some engines to need one and some to not need it? How much extra dose it cost to use a torque plate vs not using one? If the cost is not that much different I think I would just do it, better safe than sorry.

Good info

Interesting - I had been told Big Block Mopar HAS to have a torque plate for honing - but Chrysler never used them on virgin blocks and they seem to do OK . . .

I am just a engine assembler. I try to soak up the knowledge of the guys who do understand this stuff. LOL

I wonder if it's a Chevy block thing. I know dodges and fords used higher nickel for strength in the casting so it could have to do with that. That's why I like my magnum smallblock blocks for my builds. They ran an even higher nickel content than the la small blocks or so my research has told me. Lol. I've always wondered though. Awesome and thanks for doing this video!!

Would love to see this test on an aluminum block

It would be interesting to measure the bore with tri-mics. They would give a much better picture of the cylinder condition.

Depends on the Engine, Iron Blocks Don't Distort by much, but aluminum Blocks with open deck and Siamese Sleeves It does Move more than a Thousands which it will distort the area where the Bolt pulls up, causing a lot of Blow-by.

If you wish to use the head gasket that you're going to use with the head with the torque plate then you would see the distortion

Maybe true for MOPAR but not all blocks. Is that a cast iron or alauminum? I build Subaru and torque plates are essential. .002-.003 PTW variance sometimes with and without a torque plate.

An old timer once told me that a rule of thumb for this relates to block seasoning. Seasoned have already gone through their expansion cycles and are less likely to distort while fresh castings have yet to find their neutral point. Grain of salt info but its food for thought?

Joe 🚀👍👍👍🔥

How about small block Mopars? Can you have that tried on 360 and 318 LA blocks

I've wondered that myself

Id like to know whether the small block LA needs a torque plate?

Another thing, how do you supposed to fit your pistons if you hone it with a Torque plate Wouldn’t it be better to hone it without it? And fit your pistons and rings too a round hole first

If you have the torque plate then use it. I'll admit, assembling a stock engine with stock fasteners most likely won't bend things out of shape any more than usual but using the plate can't hurt. However, I think many of these engines get assembled with aftermarket hardware for whatever reason. I see ARP hardware added to builds without the proper machine work and this test should also be performed with ARP or similar fasteners. THAT's where the torque plate and machine work makes a difference. Using the ARP stuff for head fasteners, mains and rods bends things out of shape to varying degrees and they need special attention to machining. Do the test with ARP hardware for the better effect.

To further expand an open deck block has even less need for a torque plate because the bores are not anchored at the top anyway and flex somewhat under load.

Don't tell me what to do! I'll comment again at the end.... 😆

You mean the internet isn't always right???

.0002 is definitely worth a torqueplate. How deep is the rvk, rk, and rpk values in a cylinder bore? Much less than a 10th I'm sure. If those numbers are important for cylinder bore oil retention and sealing then .0002 is definitely worth torque plate honing.

I always figure (opinion only) that if the bolt holes are closer to the cylinders are the ones that warp bad. This is a good prove it video.

i wonder how the 302 small block ford would fare in comparison to the 351?

Not too surprising. I'd really liked to have seen him measure in line with the head bolts to see the distortion in those areas. The rings need a to size round bore to seal and not just across the thrust surface. Thanks for the video. Maybe next time measure every 30 degrees.

lol 2 .0001 lol great. thanks for the video.

Seems to me like the heat from combustion would cost more distortion than that torque plate. Lol But what do I know. 😉

I guess it depends on the wall thickness, the thicker the less distortion.

Yes sir Tricky Ricky (CAKE) he machined my 351w block!

👍💪

Ok, Engine should be hot for this and should the caps be torqued on the bottom too?

Use ARP bolts/studs, then measure diagonally in the same spot as the head bolts and do another video

The take away for me. Some blocks move more than others. How do you know which one you have? I watch this video on youtube. I watch other machine shop videos on youtube, They come up with different results and say don't trust what you saw on some video or read. ? One vary respected machine shop / u- tuber say yep it definitely moves, but.. on an ls, if it's not 4000hp you don't need it. But all his other videos are about be Precise and exact. 🤔 so what I've Concluded. 1. If the block has head threads up top to deck. Like an fe ford. I would definitely tork plate. If I was rebuilding a stock Ls. I wouldn't. But if I spent money on Forged pistons &rod and stud the engine. Why not spend another $200 ish and plate hone.

I'm sorry Sir, but in my Race Shop, cylinders are measured in no less than 12 places, for size, taper, and out of round. Good luck. T.S. RACING

why is he only checking for taper, not out-of-round? Try same test instead of measuring top and bottom at 12 oclock, check top 1" inch of bore and measure at the 12, and at the "X".

Torque plates are like a lot of crap I read about in Hot Rod or whatever magazine years ago, fancy stuff for the rich kids.🤣

500 horses of spray will split that ford block thru the mains and cam tunnel 😁

Yeah but Joe when you're bench racing torque plate honing and boring adds at least 20 horse 🤣🤣

Shows you cant use a torque plate as a blanket proceedure for all engines.

First of all I have never met a good Machinest that hones a block.030 ! Just because he works for someone doesn’t mean he’s good. If you don’t square it up first you got poop later. Thanks for showing what not to do like a lot of so called Machinest.

This doesn't surprise me. Chevy blocks are the worst to distort. Ford and Chrysler had good metallurgy.

Under 1000 hp, it doesnt need to be so precise, Torque plates are for open decks and weak blocks. So if its worth building cast blocks dont need them.

Hey if the internet says how to build a 180 hp motor that will never 5900 rpm’s but was built to nascar specs then let’s with the money and time waisting way 😂

Yeah call bullshit never measured where the bolts actually are in the bore. It’s not as if the cylinder head egg shapes the bore, the bore will have little shadows where the bolts are in the block. So use a torque plate and run hot water through the block better for results

Maybe try checking where the Head Bolts are ?. NOT 'away' over in the middle..... but right beside where the Head Bolt is to see the O.O.R. condition the Torqued Bolts transmit into the Cylinder wall. All you guys are measuring is TAPER and who cares ?.... because ALL of the sealing for best results needs to occur in the top 1-1/2" inches of the Bore.... which needs to be STRAIGHT & ROUND ! A Torque Plates purpose is to allow the distortion created by Torquing the Head Bolts.... which is right beside each Head Bolt in the Cylinder ..... to be Honed ROUND ? WTF are you doing measuring TAPER ?????????? Torque Plates do NOT affect Taper !!!!!!! You wanna really do it right... then hook up a Honing Oil heater and Hone the Block at 200*F, stay with .0001" S/R and watch your leakage drop to less than 1% HOT.

Torque plates are complete marketing gimmick! There’s a couple of reasons the torque plate rationale is flawed! 1. No factoring for HEAT. At operating temperature the cylinders and head are going to distort regardless! 2. When your head is torqued to the block, there’s this thing that separates (isolates) the head from the block decreasing the forces being transferred to the block. Using a torque plate without a head gasket is going to artificially transfer distortion that otherwise would not have occurred! Therefore honing your cylinders with this artificial distortion permanently imprints this distortion into your cylinders. 3. An aluminum head is going to conform to a cast iron block. The cast iron block is not going to conform to the aluminum head. I could go on and on!!

To plate or not to plate is the question 🤔 😕 😐

2/10 better than not