I want Total Seal rings in my next engine. Owning a hot rod with a small radiator any reduction in engine temperature is always welcome.

I'd like to see a test where ring wear is tested under several different conditions. 1. no crankcase evacuation. 2. with functioning PCV 3. with vacuum pump or other aids such as collector scavenge fittings.. Because we KNOW that having a PCV valve can double the life of an engine on the street, but it's obviously hard to do 100,000 miles worth of dyno testing, but some document of this really has to be made to show definitively the benefits of proper crankcase ventilation on any kind of engine!

thats why we have oil engineers like you, because now the raceteam wants you do build a better oil to have temps come back down at the new performance piston ring package, and sustain at 8,000 rpm for that 500 mile race.

It’s amazing how you guys at Total Seal have continually reengineered the design and use of materials to Improve the benchmark for useable HorsePower

I remember when 1/16" rings were the thinner rings.

Never even thought about it as heat, before.

Lake, Thank You for all you do to provide us gear heads with knowledge. I for one appreciate the insight you share.

Another great video, keep them coming Lake.

Subbed great info

Haven't seen your videos before now! Just subscribed to the channel. A great demonstration/explanation. Every day's a school day. I'll look forward to seeing your next upload. Cheers

Super great advice

I love this channel... The info is simply priceless!!

Amsoil 20w-50 racing oil reduces friction around the rings and can drop engine temps by 50 degrees. This is why those who know what Amsoil does love to put this oil in their Harleys. Amsoil even makes oil just for this bike.

Great analysis!

Love the way you teach and explain, I always wondered, can a home rebuilt engine. still use a light tension, thin ring pack, with a regular drill and hone, or does the cylinders need a special honing. Great Video. THANKS

Wow great video! Did not know that ring size can change dyno numbers by that much!

Good deal. Great info.

Interesting video, and I agree with the fact that thicker rings do generate more friction, which translates into more heat and less power. However, keep in mind these were brand new rings, not broken in rings that were being tested. I assume they deglazed or lightly honed the cylinders before they installed the new rings. This, combined with the fact that it takes some time/mileage for new rings to fully seat probably accounts for a large portion of the difference in temperature and horsepower loses. A more accurate comparison would be to run that engine a dozen or so times on the dyno to fully seat the new rings, then compare the "before" and "after" temperature and power readings. You would still see some difference with the thicker ring pack, but probably not as dramatic a difference as the initial test run.

Super cool!

Awesome Lake Speed! I’m going to have to get some of those thin, coated, gas ported, top rings, and some hapless second rings!

I am an old fart long in the game and learning something new every time. Well done!

🤔 are Pistons restricted to the ring package thickness that can be used? I'm thinking the ring lands determine the ring thickness that can be used. So, if my pistons came with a thicker ring pack, could i use a thinner ring pack on those same pistons? Thanks Total Seal, I've been a fan of your products for a very long time. I just stumbled across your KZfaq channel. 💪🏆

A similar test between high tension vs low tension rings at the same thickness would be rather interesting. There are issues however due to carbon deposits on low tension rings (esp. many modern Toyota engines in fact) and many people when they rebuild them opt to use higher tension rings.

I don't know if you'll see this since this is old. But you said something interesting, "cooler running engines make more power". I don't get it. A hotter engine would I think have more thermal expansion of the air, effectively raising compression and therefore power. I think. What am I missing?

Great content Lake, as always.

Hiya Lake Speed, I've been watching a few of your videos lately. On rings etc, You've sold me on the thinner gas ported rings for my new build, mild street, but quality. Where can I find a set of SBC pistons with your rings as a set? Im in Fremantle, so will have to hunt them down from the US. Cheers, Mike

New to the channel, great video! Dumb question, could you run the thinner ring on a piston designed for thicker ring package-the gap (4mm? in this example) becomes a quasi gas port or would the rings experience flutter? Thank you.

The total contact surface of the ring available to transfer the heat to the block is smaller with the thin ring package. Is that a limiting factor for how much heat can be transferred to the block through the rings? If it is a factor... does this mean more heat is held in the piston using the thinner ring due to less total area to transfer the heat?

I wish i could get thin rings for my FE.

Is there a such thing as a ring spacer so you can use a more modern ring package on an older piston that used 5/64 rings?

That was so interesting, I just shit myself.

Reducing engine temperature is increasing longevity. Another critical components. Let's start with the valve springs. Shall we make a list critical components and how sensitive they are to heat.

I have no friction anymore, I stopped using rings entirely and switched to prenups🤔

What kind & thickness of ring package would you recommend for diesels? Im rebuilding several (6) cummins commonrails 5.9L & 6.7L. Look at 500-800 hp for towing. I was taught the thicker rings would transfer heat from combustion process more effectively to lower piston temps for longer life. Seems they were & are wrong. So can low tension rings handle 60-80 pounds of boost if running a ported top & gapless 2nd? What type & thickness of (your rings) come with the dimpled SOA rebuild kits? Is there any way to switch piston ring thicknesses to a thinner ring package on a brand new gas 355 rebuild? Have 2 in the shop that have already been machined & balanced just needing to be assembled. Neither engine will see much time at 6000rpm since they will probably be going into trucks. Thank you Sir, look forward to learning. So many questions!!!! I have been adding a bottle of zddp to all older flat tappet engines during an oil (std 10-30) change to prolong their life... now I'm worried if it's built up or too thick!? Use driven BR oil for new engines & groved lifter bores... don't use synthetics as a rule, recommend changing at 3-5K.

Do the narrower rings fit loosely in the lands? They have to, right? How does that affect the stability of the ring?

LOL. Lake Speed, always thought that is one of the coolest names in racing, right up there with Dick Trickle, but for different reasons.

How was the fuel consumption between both ring comparison? Did the thicker one consume more gas perhaps?

Can that thin ring package be used in a high boost, gasoline application?

I just gapped my rings, which include a gas ported top ring, and gapless second ring. The TOP ring specifically had what felt like quite excessive tension against the cyinder walls. I am concerned.

How much of a difference do you typically see on 1 mm vs .7 mm? Is it as drastic?

Would the 7mm package work on a street motor

It would be cool to run each set of rings and have the same oil for each set. Then run each set with it's own oil for a set time limit. Then send the oil off to blackstone labs to get an oil analysis to see how the rings affected the oil longevity.

Do you guys do small engine rings Stihl chainsaw

thicker ring is better but less tension in the ring is a must

I question how the friction could increase that much from the compression rings. When you consider that a barrel shaped top ring has such a small contact area with the cylinder wall and a square faced second ring has a small contact area as well. The difference could only be a few thousandths on an inch. I would believe that the oil control rings could increase friction considerably. Can you test 1/16 compression rings with a low friction oil control ring pack?

Was there any difference in sealing (compression, oil control)? That wasn't mentioned.

Gas port slugs need a cam that doesn't pull a lot of vacuum. I'm sure gas port rings aren't much different. You can suck the rings off the wall with cam choice or phasing.

I have to wonder, about how the new rings work in old engines. I have heard from mechanics that todays cast iron is harder, more wear resistant than what was used in the 1960's and 70's. I understand that lower tension rings will last longer, even in the softer metal. but what about durability and sealing in an older engine. are the newer ring packages even compatible? I understand that along with new pistons, the block would have to be prepped properly. And likely bored.

Why would the steady-state coolant temperature increase? Doesn't the thermostat regulate that? There is some "proportional offset", as typical for a proportional-only controller (engineering stuff), so could rise a bit above setpoint at higher thermal load, but I wouldn't expect a 25 F increase, identical to the increase in unregulated oil temperature. It true, perhaps why some modern engines have an electronic-thermostat, to run right at setpoint (via engine controller feedback) for all thermal loads. Demonstrates why modern engines have much thinner rings and run thinner oils. Some even push the top ring up higher, leaving minimal piston land to support it. TBD how this affects life. I've already read of unexpected failures. I wonder if any have a steel groove cast into the aluminum piston to hold the top ring, as in some older diesel engines (tractors and such), or maybe they'll need to move to that to keep the top ring so high up (minimizes quench pocket for better combustion and lower emissions). How many engines have aftermarket pistons available for thinner rings? Is your engine a SBC, where parts are abundant and cheap. My 3 1960's engines are Mopar, where choices are nil and aftermarket parts pricey.

what about more heat transfer from thicker rings?

Compression and oil scraping same?

What is PDD coding on a ring?

How do those gas ports work?

The piston rings are also how the piston transfers it's heat to the cylinder wall and cooling jackets. Is one of the reasons that you're seeing higher coolant and oil temps with thicker rings because the piston is transferring more of it's heat to the cylinder walls? Do the pistons run hotter with thinner rings?

For smooth surfaces, friction doesn't change with contact area size. It definitely will for a different tension (implying a different normal force) and coating (coefficient of friction). Plus, "it's complicated"; blow-by differences, flutter, bore shape under pressure, maybe hydrodynamic differences with the oil on the walls. Nice video, measure often as you are already doing!

Well, I guess it’s time to spend a thousand dollars on a set of pistons! Wonder if a Pistons manufacturer makes a ring shim similar to ring rail bushing at the wrist pin on big stroke engines when one decides to go to the .07 ring package from 1/16” ring package? Lol

WHY are your oil temps so hot? I used to see 230F with 25/50 Pennzoil. 30 years ago. Then with Mobil 1 about 210F. And [fresh engine] had to put a softer spring in the dry sump pump pressure relief. Coolant temp around 185-200. And this racing. Even a Cleveland was around 210 oil temp with synthetic. I have nothing else with oil temp guages!! While I agree with ring friction there is so many pistons that still come with 5. 32 rings that was OEM for decades.

When you realise it’s the guy from speediagnostix🙀

Whats a set off these rings go for $ ???????

Can these gapless rings make my sound system gain more bass?

Thickness of thick ring is 2.27 times the thin ring. Wear metals in oil for thick rings are 2.2 times as much also. How much of extra wear metals is simply due to difference in thickness/volume of ring against wall? Maybe thin ring wear radially inward at same rate? So, maybe no increase in durability, but no loss, either.

Would you expect the temperatures to come down at all after the new rings were run for a while?

Great content but you really need a mic on your collar

280 oil temp??

Retest when you have 1000 pulls on the new ring package for credibility.

So forget about gas ports with a thick ring set.

That just means it’s full of coolant lol

Yes but how would they compare after 150,000 miles in a turbo charged application? Which ring set would have the most blowby and lower compression? How about 300,000 miles? How much more oil consumption will the thinner rings have? There is always pro's and con's to every design element of every machine ever designed or built! Prior to low tension rings I never had issues with excessive oil consumption now it is so common as to be the new normal across almost all major brands! The modern piston and ring designs are notorious for excessive consumption, blowby and knock! Most of us want engines that last.

Well there is no reason to use inferior materials on the thicker higher tension ring. Who would compare rings made from different materials if your go was to compare rings of different thickness/surface area and tension. You just invalidated the entire test you should only change one variable. The rings should have been otherwise identical in design elements, materials and surface coating!

Decaf

When your engine only runs less than three minutes this stuff really doesn’t matter engines don’t get very hot in 3 minutes or less, and those gas ported top rings for drag racing are crap there for endurance application blow by = loss of horsepower, for drag racing you just want some non ported chromoly rings and no matter what power adder the ring gap is 10 thousands I ran a 500HP NoS kit with a 10 thou ring gap never had any problems all this gaping to 30-60 thou because of power adders is just stupid I dunno how things about racing have gotten so turned around since I was into it, and my engine didn’t blow oil like all those pro-lines the street outlaws idiots run

If you want to get taken seriously then don't mix your measurement units

In addition, i wonder if some of that extra temperature is coming from heat being conducted away from the piston and transferred to the bores/cooling system from the increased surface area of the rings?

Took 9 minutes to say what should have taken 3. Talk about repeatability you said the same thing five times. Nothing earth shattering most people understand friction creates heat and power loss.