Most of traditional Islamic source is biased scholars since they did not apply the scientific research on primary source, but based on documents that were generated more than 150 hundreds years after Muhammad pass the way.

Our pleasure!

​@@skepsislamicaDo you have an email that so I can contact you please about some ideas which I think are important. I'm a philosophy student interested in the philosophy of religion of Islam

@@T_K_R_G tapoole87@gmail.com

Thanks

Thank you so much!

Many many thanks

There's a syrian historian called suhail zakkar, did mention that he found a rock in persia did have a inscription mentioning mecca long time ago before 600 AD.

Nabataean territory went all the way down into the Hijaz.

they called Ishtar, Alat.

I know that the Quran speaks of Alat but I believe that there is not epigraphic evidence for the existence of Alat in the Hedjaz! Is there ?

Nabatea is a part of Arabia.

Nabateans themselves were ancient Arabs and gave rise to current Arabs. Like those in Petra were Nabateans and their rock inscriptions was more or less archaic Arabic.

The accepted scholarly estimate was about 500 people lived in Mecca at the time

​​@@DelaTheCynic That means just 50 households. Which I guess is false. If Prophet Muhammad had 10000 army to capture the City, then the city must have had quite sizable population. Probably between 20,000-30,000 And the meccans in their first battle with Muhammad called Badar, put 4000 men just to protect a caravan from Syria to Mecca which Muhammad and his companions of 300-400 men intended to hijack.

@@saidhashi2856 so the surrounding converts from multiple tribes and cities in the Hijaz took part in the conquest of Mecca thus the huge numbers recorded that day. As for the 4000 sent to fight in Badr it was multi-tribe agreement to put a stop to the plans of the Muslims to intercept the Caravan, so it wasn’t just the Meccans alone. Caravans were sent twice a year and would carry the products of trade of multiple cities in the Hijaz so the Muslims were threatening the whole regions economy and that’s the reason for the huge numbers of opposition on the day of Badr.

So your point is? That the Quran was writen by Abbasids and Not revealed during the time of Muhammad. You may have loved it to be like that in order to explain away the Quran and Islam due to your biases. But it isn't like that. The Sanaa manuscript and Birmingham manuscripts will prove you wrong.

@@saidhashi2856 What I meant is there was a semantic change of the word A'rab after the Abbasid empire, if you read the contexts in which the word A'rab used in the Quran and Hadith, you will find different meaning than the later meaning "bedouin".

@@nadera1830 Read Quran 9 verses 97, 98 and 99. The word A'rab is used to refer to the Bedouin people. 97) The bedouin Arabs (literally A'rab) surpass all in unbelief and hypocrisy and are most likely to be unaware of the limits prescribed by Allah in what He has revealed to His Messenger. 99) And among the bedouin Arabs (A'rab) are those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and regard their spending (in the Way of Allah) as a means of drawing near to Allah and of deserving the prayers of the Messenger. Indeed, this shall be a means of drawing near to Allah. Allah will surely admit them to His mercy. Allah is All-Forgiving, Ever Merciful. It's clear from those verses that the word A'rab means Bedouins and desert dwelling wandering people who are most likely Not aware of religious matters and very few of them are God fearing. So to claim that the Quran does Not use A'rab to refer to Bedouins and that it's later addition is False. A'rab are desert dwelling wandering folks in the Quran as opposed to towns folk.

@@saidhashi2856 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/m62YiqZ4rZeXj40.htmlsi=GBo1ZmKOkBHUJKv8 Read the book "نزع لثام الأعرابية". If A'rab means bedouins in the quran, what is the meaning of Badow in the quran account of the story of Yousuf?

It is due to conflating shirk with idol worship and/or polytheism But I don't think we are fairly certain the Ka'ba didn't contain idols. Why do you say that? It most likely would have even if Quraysh were all monotheist as there doesn't seem to be any antagonism to idols.

@@QuranicIslam That's exactly my point, this conflation b/w idolatry and shirk was committed by the earliest Islamic writers. But why did they do that? I think from Al Jallad's research it is clear that Kaaba in 7th century was not an idol house, as he stressed in the interview there is no indication of the so-called idols in the inscriptions post 4th century AD. While we have stories in the tradition that Ali went up on Muhammad's shoulders to throw down the idols in Kaaba after the conquest of Mecca! You can say this a fabrication but the that fact it exists still means that the early muslim writers had no idea what they were talking about.

@@traveleurope5756 What Al Jallad's research can't show though is what specific shrine/structure contained or did not contain. Especially one in a city where he no one has surveyed for inscriptions and which is impossible to do now since practically 100 times the area of what Mecca used to be has now been convered over with buildings and and construction. So no, Jallad's research can only show a macro view at best, and even that only with enough data. It certainly doesn't say anything about what the Ka'ba housed or didn't house. So i think you are extrapulating where you can't. Besides which, the tradition itself barely mentions any idols in Mecca by name. The tradition says there were hundreds ... and seemingly all insignificant enough to never be named. No one argued really for any specific idols. These idols weren't ancient. They didn't have mythology around them it seems. And why would Mecca have so many insignifcant idols in the Ka'ba? The answer seems much simpler to me; they just played host, accepted and housed any idols anyone brought. And people/tribes would keep their truly venerated idols but bring to Mecca little idols, insignificant throwaways used for the journey perhaps, and the Quraysh would honor the pilgrims by honouring those idols in the Ka'ba. But no one really venerated them. That there were idols in Mecca also seems obvious from the Qur'an's narrative and discourse with the Meccan's ... and that is "eye-witness" testimony. Inscriptions only get you so far. They will never give you the complete history or tell you why. Jallad's work and others can only be used to construct one.

@@QuranicIslam I disagree. If you consider Mecca in the larger context of Arabia of 6-7th centuries, the picture is quite clear. We know that Arabia was mostly (if not entirely) Christian by that time. As far as I know only in the city of Harran there were some pagans left. Who were these tribes making pilgrimage to Mecca to bring and worship their idols? Where were these pagans coming from? We should find a trace of them in other regions. There are none! If they were coming from faraway for Hadj shouldn't we find at least few inscriptions on their paths indicating their travel to Mecca and naming some of their gods/idols? Not only in Mecca but in other areas? There are none!

@QuranicIslam Maybe the idols that qur'an alludes to were statues of jesus, mary, crosses and other christian symbols?

sounds like you weren't paying attention

huh? Arabs are mentioned as far back as 8th century bc

They are mentioned in the ancient texts of Sumeria and Babylon. In the pretty much where they are today. Go educate yourself. Also Arab is Not ethnicity but rather diverse groups of people who assimilated and shared culture and geography. Even today who is Arab and who is Not is debatable matter. There are real Arabs and Arabized Arabs. Like Yemen was Not originally Arab.

sooo Monolatry?

How so?

Both Jallad and Webb are correct. There is a way to reconcile both of their ideas on Arab identity.

No serious historian says you discount all Islamic literature just because some aspects are wrong. Josephus got lots of things wrong. Because of that, do you believe nothing he said?

Arab tribes in 6th or 7th century are well known in Islamic sources. They lived in places like Doumat Jandal, Yarmouk, Yamamah and Yemen. Most of these places except Yemeb are on the borders of Roman Syria. They were clients of the Roman empire. But the inner deserts of Arabia had 0 influence Roman or Christianity. There are No any archaeological or ruins to proof it. The readon is due to inaccessibility and inhospitable desert environment. But there were Jews in Madina. Islamic sources don't lie. But becoz of your biased eyes, you are trying to explain away the Quran and Islamic history. You somehow wish the whole Quran and Islam thing is just bad dream that you try to forget it ever happened. Very funny indeed.

He's using the reconstructed pronunciation of the letter as it would have been pronounced by the nomads who wrote the Safaitic inscriptions around 2000 years ago

No, he had a recording of himself reconstructing it on his former Twitter account and it sounded fine to me. Just when he says it in his normal speaking voice@@hamzzaahmed1794

الفرق انتا عم تفسر من سير شعبية و تأريخ أنتج ما بعد ظهور الاسلام عن هوية اليمن بكل ما تحمله هل تفسيرات و التأويلات من محدودية نتيجة القيود المعرفية لهديك العصور. واضح انك مانك اكاديمي و لا عندك اي مقاربة للمنهج العلمي بالتأريخ او الاركيولوجيا

Arabs didn't come from Yemen, they came from Syria/Jordan, this is where assyrians inscriptions mention the first known arabs, which are the qedarites, traditionally considered one of the ismaelite tribes and in some way ancestors of the nabateans

السؤال اللي ما فهمته للآن هل الدكتور أحمد مسلم أم لا؟ أعلم أنه يبحث بالآثار بشكل موضوعي ويفرق بين التراث الإسلامي وبين الآثار الجيولوجية ولكن هل وجد في الآثار ما جعله ينفي الإسلام كاملاً؟!

! How else to access? Look up the occurrences in the actual studies where terms are discussed rather than cherry picking from a website. Maybe also asking the specialist if you are not knowing the material. That’s no gatekeeping at all; it is an important point about the use of easy-to-access data.

Not true. Ever heard of research footnotes citing others work? That’s how it operates, and necessarily so since no one can do everything.

Exact I am in agreement with you.! one must turn to other people’s work so one must be looking to the other people’s work who have discussed these terms not a website. The database provides references to the studies.

@@brothersgrim07 we’re just talking about a reference book that happens to be online that one can cite like anything else

The reference book (website) allows for searching S-m-d, yes? But does not provide interpretations, so it is not enough it is not replacement for consulting works whcih is easy because the website gives references. To go past existence of S-m-d to understand what this word means, one has to consult original studies of whcih database is taking. I have understood Jallad’s point in this way. Database is dangerous if consulted without examination further.

you mean because he doesn't accept Islamic "tradition" at face value? Well no historian should, since much of it is is bullshit. This isn't controversial though. Muslims themselves know not everything in the hadiths, biographies, tafsirs, etc are true. So what's the issue? Inscriptions on rock don't lie.

You completely misunderstand Dr Al-Jallad’s work

No he doesn’t. Islam as a movement definitely came from Hijaz. Arabs on the other hand did come from the leveant.

@@TheUnique69able why are the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula genetically different from the Levantines?

No, his and the work of others have confirmed that the Arabic language originated in northern Arabia, and the earliest written references to "Arabs" originate in the north as well. He doesn't say Islam originated in the Levant/N. Arabia. You might want to work on your listening comprehension skills.

@@pheeel17 if the ancient Arabs come from the Levant, why are the Arabians not like the Syrians and Lebanese and Jordanians?

CRY L

That's what the evidence points to, no need to get angry about that just because you hold opposing beliefs.

That is demonstrably untrue

CRY L

You are just hurling slander

fear Allah , stop slandering.

awww... an offended muslim has always been the cutest. Surprised that knowledge is larger than islam and islam is not perfect do you?

CRY L

Wtf is wrong with you ?