How many KMs do you put it into the chains before swapping out?

I run a similar multi chain MTB setup. Short answer, it depends! Short sloppy muddy ride in the rain: swap chains and boil the dirty one. Even if it's literally that one ride for that chain. 300+km 3 day bikepacking trip in dry weather: swap chains because it's gonna be due soon. Chain starts squeaking at me in low gear going up the hills: swap chain.

@@marvaus I swap my chains for a pre-waxed one weekly on the commute and road bike or after a wet/dirty ride. It's quick to do so I don't mind too much how far I've ridden. Commute bike gets used five days a week, road bike usually a long ride at weekend and a shorter training ride. Rotate 3 chains per bike, started with new chainrings and nearly new cassettes.

I've actually done a full strip and immersion application of Squirt on my MTB. I just found that it is stickier than hot wax and attracts more dirt. I pretty much only use it for emergency application if I don't have time or I'm traveling.

More like, climbed out of the chain oiling and maintenance rabbit hole and dipped into the warm and comfy bath of chainwaxing

Was a Squirt user, had better mileage when degreasing chain regularly but poor when just reapplying weekly. My Silca hot waxed chains stay so much cleaner than Squirt waxed. I also found was allowing my chainrings to get over worn, now I keep a closer eye on them.

Oh, I have a question! Since I still have 90% of Smooth Molecular Acid 😂 sitting around doing nothing - would it work nicely as step 1 in a chain prep situation? Get new Shimano chain, strip factory grease off with SMA, flush with water, dry and then do the 2 X spirits/turp washes???

That was my experience. In fact, I was sort of more persuaded to try due to efficiency since I’m a pretty weak rider. The surprise was how clean the rest of the bike was and the lack of care required carting the bike around, reseating a dropped chain, changing a rear tube etc.

@@billeterk yep, so fresh and so clean! The other change it's made to my thinking is that I previously only purchased Ultegra cassettes (the rest of the system being Dura Ace); I always found the additional cost of DA cassettes prohibitive knowing i'd be changing them out annually but now that my drivetrain lasts so much longer I can actual see the value in saving a bit of weight and any shifting.durability improvements (not that i'll feel them).

Yes i know - i definitely have some presentation skill limitations - do struggle to cover the depth i just naturally feel needs covering within a concise time- especially as i lack the time to script etc. It is on my to do list to do better - but especially these correction videos - to really ensure i am providing all the information and proof to back why i am calling someone else's information incorrect - i do tend to run way long. I have a condition....

​@@zerofrictioncycling992 there's the Blaise Pascal quote "I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter."

@@markifi thats perfect! and that one re how its not worth skimping on the quality stuff sometimes - "dont try to save me money, i cant afford it" or something like that :)

Maybe hire an editor as camera man? Even if only for a couple of sessions. When I was coached through the format of a concise commercial with technical updates, it really helped Another thing that helped me was making a 30 slide PowerPoint and limiting myself to 1 minute per slide. You don't even need to have slides, just highlight or point to your subject matter and watch the clock

@@VYBEKAT Yeah true that. but i can barely hire myself :) Now that school hols over and not juggling a mini me i hope to be less crap with less interruptions and little more time to be on top of work, alas a proper presenter i may well be aways off still - my apologies, i am for realz slowly chipping away at trying to get better, but sometimes i dont even have time to do a retake of a particularly crap worded clip, let alone script anything or do slides - i have an hour to two hours maybe on a friday to record and post. Im great at responding to comments though! I type like the wind.

Rex chain wax is the way to go for me! Commuted through the winter here in Helsinki with it.

All groovy except we strongly advise against the whole cooling wax thing to remove chain. Pressures inside the chain are massive. As in many hundreds to even thousands of psi. If you remove chain from wax at 90 degrees c and hang to set on a 40 dg c day, or if you remove chain at 60dg c and put it in your freezer - after 10 mins of riding you will have the same amount of wax coating all key load surfaces inside the chain. Simply the removing cool method just makes a heck of lot more mess everywhere with excess flaking out and off, and wastes a lot of wax - for more steps and faff time. So in short - more time + faff for no benefit but more waste and mess - this is not recommended, do not bother to do.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for your suggestions. I understand what you are saying. I have tried removing the chain sooner, at a higher temp, but the wax coating on my chain seemed to not last as long. I do agree that pulling the chain at a lower temp is much more work and mess, but it seems to put just that little extra wax that’s adds even more quietness and longevity. But then again it could be all in my head. Anyway just checked my chain for wear after about 5 months. ZERO WEAR!

@@sgold1132 yes the actual layer of wax on main load parts very quicky become very thin due to pressure. Already at hot temps there is too much wax inside the chain that needs to be pressed out in initial riding - and what is left after break in is much thinner, it really would be difficult for a cold wax to go a longer treatment lifespan as there is not really a way to keep any extra in - the pressures squeeze out excess fairly quickly until just a thin layer remains. It can be with cold ish wax removal that the excess on the outside of chain puts more build up more quickly on cogs and rings and softens the feel a bit vs cogs and rings that remain very clean, so it may be that altering the perception feel a bit is my best guess!

I'm exactly the same the cleanliness is the game changer even without the extra chain/component life. Also having pbs on loads of climbing segments due to the smoothness. Not gone through a winter yet (uk) but can't see me ever going back

everyone 1000km u do what, sorry can you rephrase that?

us = ultra sonic ¿Does that answer the q?

@@freondakilla no worries bro,every 1000kms I run the chain through the ultrasonic cleaner and put the chain in a pot of silca ss hot melt wax.I try to keep my hot melt wax as clean and grit free as possible so I always throw the chain in the ultrasonic cleaner before it goes into the wax pot...Cheers!!!

That only applies to a tiny, almost vanishingly small fraction of mechanics or cyclists, and as such it is not relevant to anyone who isn't in that situation.

@@robinseibel7540 Very true and my sponsored rider has these fringe benefits fortunately . I gave her a few new Connex Wippermann 12s0 chains when receiving my first order .

Yes for sure - i dont think it would be the right place for many bike mechanics to get into a long conversation about waxing with customers as that can really go on and on - it is really best for someone who is thinking about it to check it out online and see if they think it is for them To that end it just really helps it the information they see or hear is accurate. The most common feedback i get is wow IM waxing is so much easier than i was worried about, why did i put it off so long etc etc - and then they see the cleanliness benefits, with no maintenance needed , and like yeehaa. And they get the parts longevity benefits, and are more like yeehaa. And i think this is where there is often a fair bit of passion from IM waxers to try to help their friends - it can be like heavens why arent you it is so easy and its so awesome. And as media finds out even well before i might know about it - there is already a bit of reputation that if they shoot down IM waxing due to poor information / incorrect information - they will likely find out about that in the comments! I just really think that in brads case, it was the stereo typical incorrect info re a whole lot of time and faff, for very little actual benefit - so why risk things like putting chain on backwards etc. And considering how well proven it is that it actually takes very little physical time, and has really large benefits - i am hoping to try to put those two common misconceptions to rights - and that work is dented when world tour level mechanics pump those misconceptions out to a large audience. And i am not sure if brad really understands the difference between grabbing the next free chain and cassette for nino, vs what normal peeps have to do re purchasing as many are really, really expensive these days, and on a poor lube choice = ouch. So being able to weigh up the actual for real pro's and cons of the lowest possible wear option is valuable vs being incorrectly put off with incorrect information.

yes it really is! oh man - a wet lube and offroad especially - its just a constant nightmare. I have a racing buddy who has been using wet lube for ages - every week, every single week - he does a full off bike degreaser flush clean (he trains an average of 15 hours a week - he is a gun). How much time and how much degreaser a year does he go through..... but i cant even get him onto wax drip - he is just comfortable doing what he is doing, and that is not that uncommon. but i do always find the contrast with some quite humorous. Remove chain for full degrease clean = normal behavior. Remove chain to put in a pot of wax = batshit crazy who has time for that!!!

You are doing every thing right. Amazing more people don’t.

Ah i think its actually the opposite. Mtb the chain rings are normally a lot less expensive, but the chains and cassettes can cost a fair bit - even original eagle, 3rd tier down at GX - a cassette is normally around 350, going up to an rrp of 800 odd for an xx1. On the wrong lube (which is rather easy due to marketing and penetration of a lot of poor wet lubes) - mtb riders / gravel - they easily just rip through their components as in short order they are pretty much running liquid sandpaper masquerading as a lubricant. For gravel the force, red or xplr level cassettes also cost hundreds to many hundreds. Mtb demographic has forever been you just ride chain with whatever as lube until the drivetrain doesnt run anymore, then you replace everything and go again. Cost of components has been slowly changing this - for the smarter mtb riders. But they are still at least a decade behind road cyclists re understanding that running a grinding paste as lubricant = high wear. And many still dont think at all re drivetrain friction also comes from high wear. XC is getting there, slowly - again at least a decade behind road, as are a majority of mtb mechanics (with the smarter ones understanding awhile ago now) - but for gravity focussed mtb the understanding of chain lubrication, friction and wear is still practically nowhere - it is still yeah new chain with factory grease for race day, and then drip whatever on top after that etc. It is getting there, but it is eternally ironic that in the world of dirt and dust that as demographic they have been so far behind road, and with just such a large lack of understanding and basic logic re why IM waxing will rock their world - still it is more common for mtb demographic to ridicule the obvious vastly better path, which is just endlessly fascinating for me to try to understand what is behind it.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 as someone who rides mostly dusty desert I'm totally in agreement as advantage is clear as day to me, but as for the cost, the value on the MTB side is firmly with Shimano which might be overall heavier but had become incredibly reliable. Even at retail cost XT 8100 series should not run over 60 for a chain and around 100 for a cassette. And cheaper unboxed oem parts are easy to source. (Btw I have found two cheap things that make running a simple crock pot for waxing much easier: silicone dividers let you do a 2 pot set up in a single 6 liter pot and an in-line thermostat that sits between the plug and outlet with a probe that goes into the wax lets you run the crock pot on high without going over temp for those from AliExpress for under 20 usd total)

ha! must have good stereo sound there!

yes it does look a little thin even for gravel tires, and it also doesnt look that adjustable at first blush, but more will be revealed soon hopefully. Again considering the benefits for hm waxing are that much greater again for offroad vs road, it will be a bit of miss if it doesnt factor big tire bikes -but also i would give them lots of leeway on first gen - it could add significant cost and complexity to make it adjustable across a big range of tires, so just getting the first ones out catering for road and see how that goes in the market, and then if well look to next steps - that's perfectly understandable also.

Ignoring the tyre size issue, they might be useful for fleets of cargo bikes or a 'drive though' chain waxing business ? I hope it cleans and waxes your chain , but I can't see how they could implement the equivalent of the 2 pot system. How do they stop wax dripping everywhere or building up on the inside of the machine ? It will probably have to use a mini wax bath and heat / cool the chain in sections. Dripping hot wax on like a drip lube and rotating the cranks to create a pumping action without fan cooling would mean your chainrings would be full of wax. The chain will have to be heated to get wax penetration and my choice would be induction heating, a mild version of kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qt1xhdqets--p5s.html . How are they measuring the chain / wax temperature ? Infrared thermometers have emissivity issues and any filters would fog up with wax vapour. Thermocouples may suffer from electrical interference . Maybe they use a bimetallic strip like in a kettle ? I've done a quick search for patents but didn't find any, but maybe I need to try harder.

wait till you see what Brad's rebuttal was :)

By locking the quick link onto the chain prior to waxing, you are doubling the number of times the quick link is opened and closed per waxing cycle. Your never having had a broken chain goes to show that the warning "this quick link is single use only" is BS. I will, however, continue to wax my chains minus the quick link to reduce opening / closing wear to a minimum.

thats a great question, and i will cover that hopefully this week if i get to a vid update. In my chatting with jason quade - my personal position at the moment is that i havent really seen lateral wear be much of an issue, at all. Ie by the time lateral wear is likely to be any level of noticeable re shift performance, the chain would already be at or well past recommended elongation wear - and so should be replaced anyway. Use cases where lateral wear becomes an issue before a chain reaches recommended elongation wear i think are extremely edge case. Such cases tend to be lower power riders who thus spend a lot of time in lowest climbing gears and so at high chain line angle. Especially for offroad & bike packing etc - which with the rise of gravel and bike packing - i can concede that such edge cases may be less edge now and going forwards. And since Abbey do excel at awesomeness, there is certainly no detriment to having the ability to easily measure lateral wear for a very complete and groovy tool - so yeah - why not smash it on all fronts :)

@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thanks for the response. You always seem to go above and beyond with answers like this in the comments. I would have been happy to wait for a video. :)

I assume your using UFO Drivetrain Cleaner or possibly Effetto's Allpine cleaner if your using Flowerpower ? You'll get better results with the chain off the bike as you can properly boiling water flush clean and / or soak in e.g the mentioned cleaning solutions . When you cross to the ' dark side' and regularly use a quick link , removing the chain is handy to clean the derailleur of mud and also service the jockey wheel bearings ( only occasionally ).

I am not 100% certain yet - Josh advises in their testing that all was groovy as per existing instructions - so that would be "normal" ambient temp for pot and wax - whatever their office / workshop temp is. However it could be that this was just sufficient, and there is not a lot of leeway on that if things are cooler - such as my workshop first thing in the morning if heating not on during winter. There was a clear difference on two sram 12spd chains between giving the extra time vs not giving the extra time - so that is now being checked further by josh / silca and hopefully we will see an official update. And i dont believe that there will be any negative impacts for the extra time even if it wasnt needed unlike a cake a the wax or any other process wont be damaged by simply an extra 10 mins at 125. I also think the time delay between showing 125 and wax actually being 125 should be factored in the updated instructions. In my first one where the wax was still a bit tacky - that was still after allowing the pot to get to 125. So if one put a pretty cold chain into a pot showing 125 but its actually only say 110, and then they a get 20dg c drop - that is a long way from where they say the wax temp needs to be for strip chip to do its magic - and so i think the risk of a double up re temp being too low is pretty real and this should be catered for in updated instructions.

unless it has been a proper wet ride, then no dont bother with things like boiling water flush rinses, as then you really should dry chain properly before waxing, so its a bit more steps and faff for not really any benefit post dry riding, the amount of contamination post dry riding is normally extremely low. And remember - - drip lubricant peeps are putting like 3ml on over the top of whatever is in chain, waxers are giving a bath in hundreds of ml - it takes a good ol while of dry riding for contamination in wax to be any concern, and certainly anything like what is typically running in the chain on drip lube only riders. No issue with wiping excess from outside except you use up microfiber cloths. If you are getting too much wax build up on cassette - then this can be hand to do - but for the top known waxes build up is hardly ever an issue.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 ​sweet, thanks for the answers! I started waxing with Rex black diamond a few months ago using your guides and instructions and so far everything has worked flawelessly 💪 not going back to wet lubes for sure!

ah it really doesnt matter - replacing chains by 0.5% or hopefully close to that - there is not enough physical wear of a surface to make any measurable difference re if one keeps same every time or rotates each time. Sometimes the directional (like with say shimano 11spd) - it is literally just small chamfering on leading edges of outer linker plates to help shifting, so if put on wrong way around, there is a small degradation in shift performance, which some dont notice, some do. With 12spd the difference is more noticeable, especially on the front. Flat top is not directional, just the master link is, and in general it should be uber rare to install upside down.... And then ybn, wippermann, campy, sram eagle, sram 11spd and lower (any non sram flat top) etc - all are not directional - so the sheer number of chains brad is intimating he is seeing on wrong way around - let me say i am rather skeptical.

Hey steve! ah i am very honored! I feel like i answered this but its not showing up - so possibly duplicate answer but..... alas no not really. It is a tricky balance. The great wax drips that are compatible with immersive waxing are not the longest lasting especially in harsh wet riding (really most lubricants struggle with this, but the refined paraffin based ones are on the shorter side re treatment lifespan). The longer lasting ones like smoove can be about as good as you can get, but are a bit more work to reset and re lube after. IF the refined paraffin base ones like ufo etc can survive - then resetting post is a doddle (boiling water rinse, dry, re wax). If they give up too often well before ride is over - then you need a longer lasting option like smoove and then deal with a bit of a tougher clean reset (smoove prep is best, ufo dt clean next, or just a bunch of solvent rounds, an alcohol round to make sure no film left, dry, re wax. You can skip the alcohol round for DT clean - that is rinsed with water and then leaves a bonding film behind for waxing - but all such are expensive, and so a costly way to frequently reset frequent wet rides).

@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for the reply. I was using Smoove before recently switching to Silca Hot Melt. I do rotate 3 chains but in the winter (which seems to last at least six months in the UK) I'm changing chain after every ride. Just wondered if the hybrid approach might work for me. I am running a two pot system but not sure how much the Smoove would contaminate that over time.

@@steveedwards5280 Smoove and the IM waxes arent perfectly compatible as Smoove is a fairly different wax base - Smoove we believe is more slack wax based (oily wax offshoot from petroleum processing - sort of similar-ish to squirt, and is a very cheap wax base - but not to hold that against them as overall it is a very good chain lubricant wax base - but it is part of why those products are so much cheaper vs UFO, ss drip, tru tension tungsten etc). This base has some great properties for chain lubrication - Ie smoove is fast, great treatment lifespan, holds up well in the wet. Negatives are it is a TOUGH clean when it is time to clean, and also has some initial penetration issues. Friends, and customers - have used both squirt and smoove with immersive waxing and its gone ok in rather limited trials - it is definitely best if smoove is not over applied, and that coating run down a fair bit before re waxing over. If smoove is applied multiple coatings, there is a decent amount of smoove on / in chain, and try to re wax over - its really not the same. I dont have enough field data to say its bad necessarily - ie you will get poor IM wax lifespan as not well bonded, higher wear rates etc - just - the chain is not coming out of the pot lovely and clean and freshly IM waxed like normal, or that there is no risk to negatively contaminating wax in the pot vs not doing this mix and match. If you have smoove, like smoove - i would give it a go - especially for training. I dont think it is going to do anything to the wax such that it would render that wax not really useable, just that re waxes over smoove may not go quite as well or as long vs re waxing over products that use a refined paraffin wax base like the IM waxes themselves.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for another very detailed reply. Very much appreciated

i very much like it, i could make a whole series!!!

Yes i really do not understand it, ESPECIALLY from a top level mechanic. I would expect mostly mechanics to be i dont get what any time concerns would be, it is really easy to pop your chain on and off... And yeah again if one is capable of the multi step process to wash ones cloths in a washing machine, or dishes in a dishwasher - i just cant fathom where the massive time factor is being driven by such peeps. I dont get how and experienced mechanic doesnt only count the 3 to 4 mins actual labour time involved - same as when one does a load of washing. And considering that any other options to reset chain contamination anywhere near as well actually take longer - it is even more mysterious. I totally get it if waxing is not his preference, it isn't everyones, and it is isnt for everyone. But I just also believe people at his level should not be furthering myths and misconceptions - their job, as is mine - is to put out the genuine best information to those who are following, and then let people decide the best option for them after being armed properly with actual pro's and cons - not incorrect or made up ones.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 Agree, to me it seems like it took me longer to mess around with wet lubes and then wipe the chain off and then keep up with keeping the drivetrain clean. The bonus is I don't even have to procrastinate because of the mess. I just pop a clean, waxed chain on.

yes i will look to stock and give a quick highlight to abbey tools LL2 maybe next week if i get to a vid. Abbey tools are just brilliant - this will be a great tool for many i think, an zfc will for sure be stocking.

oh and sorry re hot waxing on bike - dont try it - others have. The chain needs to be hot, if the chain is not hot, due to the comparatively low set temp of hot melt waxes, as soon as molten wax hits cool chain metal, it sets. Penetration is extremely poor, and you do not melt off and flush out old wax coating. If you try to manually heat chain via say heat gun, odds are high you will spot overheat sections and burn / heat damage the wax on the chain in that section. so at the moment, unless the CW fancy thing works - you either wax drip lube if you want wax lube on bike, or remove to HM wax - dont try to HM wax manually on bike.

Sorry ... To clarify my vague language... i did mean waxing the chain "of" the smart bike, but removing it to do so. Thank you for clarifying that doing on bike is a no go. I'm assuming getting the chain off is easy, and also accessing the single rear sprocket to give an initial deep clean.

that is absolutely correct!!! i get that IM waxing isnt for everyone for sure. But i dont get the ridicule of it, when it is a simple and very logical path with a lot of great benefits for whom it suits. It is like ridiculing someone for eating healthily vs smashing more donuts. I dont get it.

Everyone dies.

Sorry for your loss robert. But please dont be offended by any offhand humor re my own flitting memory. I have lost family too (as would almost everyone) - to a variety of causes including my brother to suicide etc - and i dont take offence to jokes about suicide etc. Once people get into a mindset of being offended by anything and everything - i can't see that leading to a good time overall - and there would come a point where one wouldnt feel like they could say anything about anything without fear of offending someone. What i take offence to is corruption and dishonesty and malicious lies and disinformation etc - that is about the biggest problem in the world these days as it stops intelligent discussion on all the most important issues facing the earth and humanity. So pretty pls dont be offended by silly little things or really one would need to live in a very secure bubble