Zerg deleted stuff - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/lbuPhaRm2ru1iYU.html Protoss deleted stuff - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kNRiirqn18nWlp8.html Timecodes: 00:00 Zerg & Protoss units 00:20 Firebat 00:40 Medic 01:20 Vulture 02:40 Goliath 03:36 Wraith 04:00 Valkyrie 05:03 Science Vessel

Pretty spot on,but imagine.... A 2 hour game in hots,a battlefield full of spider mines vs a full army of swarm hosts.the ultimate snooze fest which would result in an inevitable protoss nerf lol

Defensive Matrix on the Sci Vessel was INSANE. It was so much value and could easily swing engagements.

I'd say the unit that replaced the vulture as a fast anti light skirmisher is not the hellion, but the reaper

Q: Why didn't these Terran units make it into SC2? A: Because Blizzard hates fun.

Way before the Raven, they tried the Nomad, which was supposedly the replacement for the Science Vessel. It has the ability to deploy auto-turrets. People complained about the looks of the unit (same as the first infestor design), and they changed it for the Raven we all know.

Sometimes I feel like Blizz is just thinking "God I hate something that shares a role" and should instead be thinking "So we have two units that share the same role, what if we spice things and add different traits to make em both appealing for different tactics this way could create interesting plays". It's true some units would need pretty big modifications to make em viable without too much cheese or ridiculousness but that aint the philosophy of SC2 where cheese is basically the universe.

Saying something shouldn't be moved over to sc2 because an equivalent already exists is circular reasoning.

I’d like to see an “anything goes” version of Starcraft 2 multiplayer which includes all these units.😊

So... Terrans kept the Marine, the Siege Tank, the SCV, the Battlecruiser and the Ghost? The Battlecruiser was changed significantly too, so it's almost completely different than its Brood War equivalent.

A theory: - They decided to nerf the spider mines and replaced them with widow mines. - They decided to buff the secondary bio unit. Firebats were replaced with marauders so they can shoot at range with the marines. - But the melee splash option still had enough utility not to be scrapped altogether. After exploring options, they decided to give flamethrowers to the mine-less vulture, giving birth to hellions. - The wraiths' anti-air role had been taken over by the goliaths, while their cloaked air-to-ground role really could use more DPS. So they split the wraith into the viking and banshee. Goliaths were effectively removed from their anti-air role and their ground attack was given to the viking. But that was only just in case, since the marauders could already play the role of tanky infantry. The viking also had to switch modes between ground-only goliath and air-only wraith, because otherwise it would have been a flying goliath, and that's kind of OP. I also want to take a moment to appreciate the evolution of starcraft air units that happened in Brood War. Terran got valkyries and protoss got corsairs, both of which dealt splash damage. Meanwhile, zerg got the devourers, which dealt a high (and very slow) single target damage. I think this is a testament that massing mutas worked since the game's first iteration, while they weren't any good at dealing with capital ships. Did the respective additions serve all of the designers' intended purposes? Probably not, as was the case with the devourer. But there was also a lot of happy accidents. The whole competitive scene was, in a way, a happy accident. Who knew how far people could go with this game?

Love the Artosis clips, rofl.

Spider mines aren't free - they cost 25 minerals each. You get a free pointy motorcycle with each three-pack. The only thing they don't cost is supply, because they remain after the vulture which dropped them is long gone. You can't move them, or even manually target them, so functionally they're one-shot buildings that can only attack ground units which don't hover. The only real major advantage they have over any other unit is the ability to attack cloaked units without detection.

What!? Having free units that do damage like the mines is unfair!? While zergs have plenty of free units and it's totally balanced. That's cool.

So, it's hard to be splitting your units constantly to avoid irradiation, but it's easy to be splitting your units against dozens of banelings, or disruptor shots... yeah, right XD

Ah, my trusty vulture. That little speed demon got me out of more scrapes than I care to admit. I miss the sound of those spider mines popping like popcorn as we left a trail of destruction behind us. But hey, every dog has its day, and every vulture has its last ride. Maybe it's time to get myself a shiny new ride. Any suggestions?

As someone whose only played the campaign, I find the MP of starcraft really disappointing, i get that you can't have stuff like the lab or unit upgrades like the ones you buy with cash, but it feels deeply wrong to cut units because they wouldn't be very useful or redundant, when they are already fully made units in the game, if they are gonna be weak then there's no reason not to have them in the game because it's not like your enemt can force you to build those weak units, you should have a few options in how you do something, and in particular the wraith, a stealth fighter is really cool and worked well with the banshee, snipe the detector regardless of if it's air or ground and you have a few units to harass the enemy, even if the spector was identical stat wise to ghosts just having a little bit of variety in the models and voice lines would be nice, particularly when the spector has multiple missions deadicated towards there story in the game

"Here in the SC2 development team, we do our best to find units that fill a role that can't really be done by any other kinds of units. It is part of our design philophy after all!" >Queens can do everything short of cleaning laundry and could easily be fitted into any composition if need be >Mothership core has been a thing >Most Terran units fail to fill their role to such a degree that Marines often just take their place. Great design, Blizzard. Good job.

Imo the liberator should have just been the Valkyrie with a shiny new toy to play with Honestly lotv should have been the return of brood war. I mean, the Zerg even got the lurker back, and the disruptor is very functionally similar to the reaver, so why not just make it a reaver? A real waste of an opportunity if you ask me...

In BW, Blizzard designed units to be fun and interesting, SC2 was designed for 'esports', and BW still ended being more balanced than SC2.

i remember my first ever versus game after i finished "wings of liberty" campaign: "how the hell do i build medics?? how am i supposed to keep my marines alive??" ;-)

There's a lot of BS in this. If you don't replace the vulture, you don't have the hellion and you wouldn't need to scrap the firebat. And in the end, they just changed the unit's production building and the looks (Hellbat). Also the medic... Blizzard was going crazy cause they didn't know what to do with the reaper. The unit had an specific role and didn't have access to healing cause their mobility (medics couldn't follow) . Which was funny, cause lorewise the reapers didn't last for long in combat. But they wanted to give them access to heal, so they scrapped the medic and gave the healing ability to the dropship. Same stupidity with the Goliath. They stated that it was replaced cause it was very limited due to its mobility. So they changed the Thor (which was an assault juggernaut) to make it an anti-air unit. Funny enough, cause you take out the goliath for limited mobility, yet put instead an oversized, slow, clunky unit. Totally coherent. And all because they moved the viking to the starport (it was produced by the factory at the begining). But I guess not many people remember the days before the game came out. Cheers!

I wish they had gone more for a StarCraft 1.5 . . . .

I would argue medivac was a nerf. Medics can be build via barracks, so you can MM rush people who were not careful. Medivac needed a starport, thus making the bio rush early less viable.

Actually, the reason medic was removed was because of the reapers. Medics couldn't sync with them, so they combined the medic and dropships together to fix this problem...than you know, giving medics jetpacks lol

That's kinda ahistorical isn't it when you raise the liberator (which doesn't appear till LOTV) and the corruptor (which doesn't get its vomit till LOTV) as examples of why the Valkyrie isn't needed. I think ignoring time in deciding why things were not included is rather bad as a form of analysis

I ve heard they removed Medics cause of how bad they would be sexually harrased by Marauders

In SC1 Goliath and Wraith were my favourite units, so in SC2 I like to build mass Viking, as it's kind of the same thing.

I miss my medics the most. I mean medivacs are okay but you lose a lot of rush potential in the early game because you cant make some quick medics, you have to go factory and starport and then medivac, esentialy you pay 300 gas for 2 medic and the ability to drop units, but in some case I don't need to drop anything, I can just bruteforce my way through.... Uhh And wraiths would be very good, especially versus protos and zerg, cuz you can snipe their detectors and then bye bye flying army.

I miss the old sounds of broodwar

If I would return any of these Terran units to SC2, it would be the Science Vessel. It'll have the same abilities as the original, with the additional healing of mechanical units to support mech armies. Ghost loses EMP and gains Lockdown (which is now a channeled ability like the Phoenix' Graviton Beam), and Irradiate can affect both biological and mechanical units.

I'm gonna be honest, I watched the 3 videos and 80% of the changes I can only think BW did it better

You got everything backward. They got rid of these units, and then put the units to replace them. And some of the unit you mentioned werent in the game in Wings of Liberty. I can make the exact same video why SC1 doesnt need these SC2 exclusive unit with your reasons.

Some of the answers are just "they are replaced by something else". I don't think that's a good answer. With more veriety comes more strategies and possibly new fun ways to play. Goliaths, as an example, could be a mech variant of marines for a more mech-heavy army style. Medics could be a more spammable option to medivacs and be a substitute in case your enemy happens to be really strong against air. Over all I just think it's just a way to not make the game to complicated because it becomes easier to balance the races with fewer units.

Id argue the Goliath is better then Thor. If it has the Broodwar missle upgrade it be a better anti Armored Air unit then the Thor. And while argument comes in "Yeah you got the viking wich is more versatile" cept you need to micro swap to engage Air or Ground and you half half a second of vulnerability before you can attack. And the Medivac is more a Terran nerf because it takes longer time to field those then it was to field normal Medics. Complexity is good for competitivity but sometimes simple is better.

Technically the Hellion replaced the Vulture first, Firebats could've kept the mobility of bio and be far more mobile than Hellbats/Hellions are at harassing and maneuvering. As for Hellions vs Vultures, I suspect they really didn't want to keep moving shot, considering how bad the Hellion's damage point is. While Vikings are superior to Goliaths stat wise, gameplay wise they're a bit wonky in them being their own counter in TvT. Technically you can use Thors, but their poor mobility is a bit of a problem in keeping up with a moving fight. Cyclones are fast, but their range sucks. For Wraiths, like with Scouts, I feel like SC2 is a bit too happy spreading powerful Air to Ground units into the game. Units that can't shoot up get wrecked if they can't get anti-air around, which often takes heavy casualties too because of dps density, unless they're also an air unit. Science vessel got basically replaced by SC2 Ghosts, Irradiate with Snipe and EMP with EMP round.

I would've liked to see them all with a larger meta. Too many units are too multi functional.

Spider mines are capped at 3 per Vulture btw

In the lore, the Liberator gunship is based off of the Valkyrie missile frigate (which is why it has the aa attack that it does), and the Viking was introduced to the Dominion arsenal as a replacement for the Goliath.

Medics couldn't keep up with reapers, so they merged the two.

I guess firebats and vultures had a "switch of concept" just so a good mix of damage can be present in a bio deathball. I personally prefer medics over medivacs though but I guess blizzard want to cover all aspects in a bio deathball by adding additional support ability on dropships.

I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned that SC2 has a a evolution in its lore. While the whole analysis about game play is correct, it should be mentioned that, according to lore, all the new units are stronger than the old ones. For example the Viking is an upgraded version of the Goliath, the Liberator is the upgraded Valkyrie and so on.

Dislike for Raven/Science Vessel and Valkyrie/Liberator because what you says makes ZERO sense. You are also wrong about Goliath though its less obvious. Let's just say that Viking+Thor is many cases inferior to Goliath+Wraith.

4:10 the real reason why sc2 is gutting air unit so much is because multiple unit selection and death balling would be even worse if air units are good. sc2 already suffers from death ball issues, and having it ground based at least have _some_ opportunities of breaking it up if you can select all your units as air, and they're good, nobody would use ground unit at all because an air deathball will be much easier to manuver bw balanced air units mostly by limiting their air-to-ground damage (scout / wraith both pea shooters vs ground for example)

The other thing about Science Vessel repair is that it is free, costinf only renewable energy, whereas SCV repair costs resources. This can make the Science Vessel repair potentially hard to balance, since the resource cost of repairing structure and mech units is a major balancing factor of the Terran health regeneration method. Zerg regen is constant and free, but slow. Protoss can only regen part of their health (shields) but this regen is quicker. Terrans can only regen health for “free” on their squishiest units (bio units) and require Medivacs to do it. Their mechanical health regeneration is EXTREMELY FAST, but costs resources in exchange for this speed and requires workers. Giving them an option to repair mech units and buildings that is slower but free would be difficult to balance, either being useless due to the supply and resource cost of the science vessel itself, or overpowered and allowing Terran to regenerate for free.

I would like to try a SINS Rebellion split of the factions bringing the Brood Wars units back into the game. Terran Raiders (BW) Terran Dominion (S2) Protos Kahala (BW) Protos Scion (S2) Zerg Overmind (BW) Zerg Queen (S2)

In SC1 there was no such thing as queing actions in the user interface. So if you had a group of ghosts defending against a group of carriers, by using lockdown on each carrier, you would need to select each ghost individually and have each cast lockdown on different carriers. So only players with crazy high APM would be able to use such abilities to their maximum potential. Similarly for example for defensive matrix, you could cast it on a squad of stimmed marines and just wreck havoc on any base. But your APM would need to be high enough to do it on the whole marine squad. Every ability behaved that way, for example if you had a group of high templars and you wanted to cast psionic storm over a wide area, you'd need to select each templar individually and then cast. Otherwise all templars would cast psionic storm over the same area, but the effect would not stack. So esentially you'd be wasting the unit's ability. I think that's a big part of why some units or abilities were removed. Some game designer at Blizz thought that hey, lockdown on ghosts is too powerful because they can disable a whole mechanic army just with queuing. But for some reason other abilities were OK, such as psionic storm or fungal growth for example.

The only one I miss that they should have never scrapped from multi-player was the Science Vessel. One of my favorite spell caster units of all. And part of my strategy in many SC1 games.

I'd pick sc1 science vessel over raven any day

Raven versitale lol. Its used only in tvt due to matrix on siege units and sometimes for detection in other matchups.

I'm so glad when you mentioned Ravens, you showed a Ketroc game!

I hate building the medivacs. Here's why. I'm not a diamond level player first off. They rush into enemy anti air and die. They require a star port vs just the base barracks. They require starport upgrades which you have to do in addition to marine upgrades if you want to keep 'em alive late game. Yes it is harder to focus them down but with a full barracks focus you can pump the medics out in huge numbers. I miss Medics...

Because they weren't very creative. They combined Vulturs and Firebats into Hellions that transform into firebats. They renamed Spider Mines as Widow Mines. They renamed the science vessel to Raven and changed its spells. They renamed the Goliath to Thor. They renamed the Wraith to Banshee and took away its air attack and gave it to Vikings.

Brood war unit composition is better than starcraft 2. The only thing stopping me from playing brood war over starcraft 2 is the UI.

Damn, that is some old direct strike commanders gameplay. Kerrigan still having her assimilate ability almost feels weird.

I miss the wraith. What i would like to see is a customizable army units tree, with related upgrades from BW or SC2. No one would have the same combination and even if they do, they would share the ssme weaknesses. That way, i could get rid of reapers and ravens that are completely useless as compared to the science vessel and add wraiths and goliaths to my tech tree.

I always thought the cyclone was more a of replacement for the goliath 🤔

Ah yes, landed Viking The power of the Marine in a big fuck off mech. Truly amazing and is used everywhere.

I want Goliaths back. They're so cool.

Personally i think almost every new unit Blizzard thought was a good replacement for the old units, always ended up worse and they had to find other replacements to remake the old units without losing face

Each time I see artosis rage, it make me remember why he have a pylon with his name on it

I think that a science vessel healing mech units would be really great, repairing with scvs is impractical and annoying. I think it should have been an option if it's not OP. Would be just cool to fix your units at home when not fighting, fixing mid battle would be too OP but that's not even what I want.

I'd love to see Goliaths make it into the game along with a Thor makeover. It's never made sense to me that Thor's are so strong anti-air, it feels more like a heavy unit hammering through enemy front lines. So change the Thor to be the heavy assault kick in the door weapon, and bring Goliaths back as a primarily anti-air platform.

Why I mainly only play Coop and customs. These units tht didn't make it to Ladder are very fun to play. They can be rather OP especially when played correctly, but the AI doesn't mind. There was that time when Coop turned into a 1v1 match. All that cheese and frustrations in that short time could is equal to all of the frustrations from cheese throughout the history of the game

the scooter att speed is op and the floaty thing is crazy healing support for mech

reason why science vessels were replaced was because of PTSD from Battle on the Amerigo.

The since vessel would be cool for terrans if it was something kinda like the mothership

You should really specify multi-player in your title or thumbnail. SC2 isn't exclusively MP. There are strong SP and mod communities.

truth be told I would've liked the idea of unit + tech fusions - marines+reapers, medics+medivacs+hercules transport, goliath+viking+wraith+banshee, science vessel+raven, vulture+hellion+firebat, firebat+marauders. another thing I would've liked would've been the ability to infield upgrade vikings to archangels & thors to odins

would be really nice if Blizzard makes an SC2 Valkyrie with portrait and voice

2:57 You're kind of wrong here. Though they can land on the ground, Vikings are not really ground-based units. As you know, Goliaths are produced in Factories not Starports, which is affected by the player's build priorities. The current, non-Tech Lab Factory units that can do the Goliaths' role are Cyclones and Widow Mines. Moreover, the Goliaths' main role in Broodwar is being the long-ranged, anti-air ground unit. They are the ground units that deal with Guardians. However, in SC2, the Goliaths' range & targeting upgrades are limited to the single-player campaign. If they were added in Multiplayer, they would have been the ground counter for Broodlords & Tempests. 3:37 Wraiths are the actual Starport units that have been replaced by Vikings. Imo, Wraiths are the better than Vikings because they have cloaking and they do not need to spend time changing modes. 4:33 Each air unit fulfills multiple roles? Don't make me laugh. Can Banshees attack air units? NO. 4:47 No need for advanced anti-air units? View more professional matches. Many matches were won by having a massive number of air units - mass mutas, mass vikings, mass BCs, mass tempests, etc. 4:53 Vikings are enough? I cannot take that seriously. Can a single Viking hit multiple targets? NO, because their AoE/splash damage upgrade is limited to the campaign.

Goliath is a sad one to me. Vikings are same only by technicality to me, while Thors could have been something _more_ then just a bulky, slow firing Goliath.

I mean, it's not like units that have been kept around didn't get some level of rework from BW to SC2, so I fail to see why several of the units (and sometimes abilities) couldn't be kept around. Also, the parts where you mention that a given unit isn't quite powerful enough... Buffing it across the games is a perfectly valid option.

i think the goliath is superior to it's replacement, the viking, simply because i don't have to wait on a transform animation to slap air/ground units, i click and it just does it. the only down side to the goliath is it can't fly, which i can live with since it's basically a SAM turret with legs. vikings feel unwieldy to me since im not mashing my key board like the pros do, they take more of a nuanced focus than a goliath, if you leave them in air mode and something on the ground pokes them, they are defenceless until they transform, and if you transform them while they are being slapped you are sure to lose a few, ouch. or you can run away with them, same if they are on the ground and getting hit from the sky. Goliaths just do both and were the mainstay of my terran comp in SC1, was a shame to see it gone in SC2 but makes sense for the balance, hardly anything has Dual purpose Air/Ground attack except Marines, widow mines, hydralisk, Thor, Stalker, Archon, and maybe a few others im forgetting, everything else has only attacks air or only attacks ground as a specific role it fills. the few dual purpose exist are wither a cheap low tier unit with a single target decent DPS attack (stalker/marine/hydralisk) or and expensive late game unit that has some high damage but high attack cooldown attack (Thor, Tempest). i like thors, but god are they expensive when i just need a semi-cheap horde of AA

They should minimize overlap by having each race only field one unit. This unit then has abilities to transform into all possible roles. Let's call it the Siege Caster Viking (or SCV)!

Ease do one for the other races! Even if I don't agree on almost all of them; the replaced units were much better IMO. The montage you did (image wise) was really nice 😀

Is it possible to play the older version of SC2 offline, before the Raven/turret was nerfed?

Vulture maneuverability is a big bonus though, many units in the game can't hope to catch up with a micro managed vulture.

pretty much spot on with getting rid of any overlap Firebat -> Hellbat Medic -> Medivac Vulture -> Hellion Goliath -> Thor/Viking Wraith -> Banshee/Viking Valkyrie -> (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizz basically gutted every single dedicated air to air splash unit, devourer/corsair/valkyrie) Science Vessel -> Raven

At least, they need to add Valkyrie into Swann's combat unit in Coop. Goliath, Wraith and Science Vessel are in his combat unit already.

The reasons you give for medics and firebats being removed are looking into them from the finished game standpoint. The real reason why there aren't more iconic SC1 units in the game is much more simple - blizzard wanted BW and SC2 to be different as possible, so they removed or changed as many original units, as they could. They even wanted to remove carriers during HotS (and briefly did - so there would be more place for the new Tempest - official reason for the removal of course being 'hard to balance' - their typical scapegoat). And Blizzard didn't add lurker for the first few years in SC2 as well - they said that Roach and Baneling were created as replacements for Lurker, and there was no point. But after the failure of HotS and Swarm host (another 'New Lurker'), which hurt the game pretty bad, they needed a nostalgia unit for the zerg so the lurker was added despite underground AoE existing in banelings, and burrowed threat existing in Swarm Host and tunneling roaches. StarCraft 2 wasn't created with new units from the beginning - blizzard devs have stated this in the past, that they first recreated most of the SC1 units and slapped the new ones on top. Hellion wasn't created before firebat was (they even reused his model for the replacement - marauder); and balancing the cost wasn't the first priority either - if that was what they wanted, removing the gas cost from firebat and not developing hellion in the first place would be easier. The problem with your videos is that you state simple opinions as facts why units weren't added or were removed, despite not citing actual blizzard posts/statements or changes in patches, so these videos are full of simply wrong information.

Honestly it really sucks they didn't just use all the units just rebalance them and keep them all, its disapointing not to have the entire Arsenal at your disposal... And some multiplayer things don't exist in the campaign which is also annoying

Wraith did not require a control tower to build, it shot faster and cost only 150M 100G. Wings of Liberty ruined my boy.

Have any pros played on custom 1v1 maps where these units are available? Wouldn't they make the game more interesting?

5:14 They aren't free abilities; they cost energy (and usually research beforehand).

The good old days .... I love firebats and Goliaths

I don't know if redundancy is the best reason in favour of just 'for balance reasons' instead. Imagine if you will they kept all the choices in, redundant or not, I could imagine more than a few games ending up being quick marauder firebat and medic pushes early and having little actual counter to it.

I just think more units would add variety to a game fielding vultures without spidermines and hellions and then add a few widow mines would be a cool composition. Goliaths and hellbats and hellions with cyclones would be cool

Widow mines in Wol!? Come on, and hellbats too...

Even if the Goliath and science vessels had some overlap, they still would have been valuable. If the Goliath came with its campaign upgrades, I think it would change things up. And who wouldn't like mechanical healing without needing minerals or gas?

it is funny that one of my favorite defense maps called "TAR defense" on starcraft 1 started lagging real bad, and there was a name where one version had Valkyries do 2500 damage each rocket, really good, but back then the lag and ping differences for people would get so bad you'd have to sell Valkyries for other anti air units, but ever sense the polish we got for an upgrade of Starcraft 1, what was once a really challenging map was downright easy, so I'd definately say Valkyries, as much as I miss them, were definately lag generators.

One interesting thing is that ghosts aren’t usable in broodwar because of how spells there. But in sc2, ghosts are a god unit that can use EMP. If anyone had actual machine like macro in bw, ghosts would be broken, but no one is good enough to micro them. So instead the vessel has to have EMP etc

Blizzards obsession with eSports and "balance' ironically killed sc2 as an esport. Imagine if they didn't give a fuck about "redundant" units and just added all the single player campaign units and the original sc1 units into multiplayer and let the pros have at it. The games would be wild and crazy to watch. There would be so many more possible plays and counter plays.

That aged well

Goliath were just too op

amazing video

If Wraiths should return in SC2, it'll lose Gemini Missiles and Burst Lasers can attack both ground and air units, becoming a versatile light stealth fighter that's not good at anything other than workers and low HP units. Imagine a SkyTerran fleet consisting of Wraiths, Banshees and Vikings, it would be fun.

Sure, it will be hell to split ground units. Imagine that, we just have to pre split against fungal, that's it

i miss the old immortal with it's hardened shield. I'm not good at micromanaging so the hardend sheild for me is better than the sheild boost.

Medivac - fast, mobile, airbord, late on tech...and easy kill for the enemy Medic - cheap and everywhere, early on tech...hard to get rid of Firebat - anti bio, early on tech Hellbat - anti bio, late on tech