One possibility is that when Squall was lost at the end of the game, it was the compressed future. This opens two timelines in the past; the one we see where Rinoa calls him back, but there's a second created in between the time when he was lost and where she called him, and in that timeline Squall never came back. Think Zelda. In this timeline Rinoa was heartbroken, hence her descent into Ultimecia, and also why she allowed Seifer to be her white knight in the "past" (since she already had a relationship with him and knew he wouldn't die). Nothing in the game states this, but given its reliance on time travel and its effects on the future (Edea, SeeD, Ellone), as well as multiple timelines, and it doesn't rely on external sources, I think this theory fits.

Yeah, it's almost like after Squall's death, Ultimecia fashioned herself after Squall, who is inspired by Lions.

That's cool with me. Thanks for your comment I'm glad you liked it :)

Steph I checked into another person's comment about a squalls ring and it's true if you rename the ring then grievers name will change. That's basically screaming it's true

The more i listen to the counter i believe it’s true. Even when the game developer say ultamecia isn’t rinoa, it supports the fact that Rinoa is Ultamecia.

Well, she could be. It would make the story much more interesting, wouldn't it? I strongly believe the idea had been considered at many points throughout the game, but did not make it into the final product. Obviously some of the devs still love it as well, and that's why they keep dropping hints of it in newer, crossover games. In a world where time compression is possible, it's not a stretch to think that alternate realities might offer this scenario. I dig that dark twist too, and I think all the foreshadowing offered in the game falls in place beautifully with it :)

Rob Latham I like that you could say squall dies when impaled by the ice spears that caused her to change after that it's the alternate time line that's why all his wounds just disappear

Makes sense as well, but will make it more convulated

Square stirring up the theories 😄

Yeah her contrast to Squall is fantastic and their respective personalities allows the other to mature in certain ways. Her naivety is brilliantly paid off when she tries to give Edea the Odine bangle in Deling City - I think that's her turning point because for the first time she truly feels fear and vulnerability.

Enigma it was debunked by Square

@@kleinsbottle Square Enix is not Square or Squaresoft.

@@kleinsbottle True, but we can still enjoy theories such as this as our own head-canon.

@@tomlewisohn8088 You can, im not arguing against having fun; its just not possible as the OP above described for a good number of reasons.

@@kleinsbottle They problaby dont even understand it themselves. Only the writer truly knows, and he sprinkled this stuff for a reason.

Yeah I think there's a scene right at the end game where we see Edea receive those powers and initiate the timeloop? At the time I made this episode I totally forgot about that small but significant scene; I'm currently on the 3rd disc of the game so when I complete it again I want to reconsider it.

@@AlleywayJack Yes, Ultimecia gives Edea her powers and later Rinoa gains her powers I think. Its at the time of Edea visiting Odyne to remove her powers or something like that, but I dont know if its specificly said that Rinoa gains Edeas powers. I assumed in my "theory" (or rather headcanon really) that this is what makes the story go full circle, because now it is basically destiny that rinoa gains her powers again. For me it meant that Ultimecia basically allways ensures her own existance, even if she is defeated in the end. If the U=R theory is true or in what way it is true basically depends on ones interpretation. I personally believe it in a way and find it really really interesting, because I think it would fit nicely in the themes of FF8 (eventhough sadly, it wouldnt really be a happy ending this way). (PS: sorry that I make you read all my overly long comments :D)

I don't see how any "loop" can be made. People who favor this theory fail to realize that the ENTIRE TIME compressed, there is no past, present or future. No pattern of events to follow, the entirety of the timeline compressed and got distorted so it is by definition impossible to make a time loop out of that

It's still possible for the future to have a future. If you are a person living in the future (the same time as ultimecia's time), when time compression happens, you will probably experience something like being on acid for around 30 minutes. Then when squall defeats ultimecia, your perception returns to normal but ultimecia is not around anymore. Then you will just continue living... If you're talking about rinoa=ultimecia, and ultimecia re-experiencing her love story wirh squall, i think the loop makes it possible for ultimecia to re experience the life over and over. Afterall when her power was with edea she can control edea. She's physically in the future but she's also living inside edea from the past. So when edea passed sorcery to rinoa, ultimecia is living rinoa's life too. Ultimecia might have been physically killed but her "mental presence" remained in a loop, from edea, then back to rinoa, her younger form. Rinoa gets older and becomes ultimecia, then contols edea's actions, then rinoa's actions, compresses time, gets defeated and transfers her mental presence to edea. And the loop goes on and on. To sum up, yeah she immortalized herself. That is, if rinoa=ultimecia. :)

Well said! Realizing we were stuck in a never ending loop from the start feels like a great revelation at the very end of the game. I love those scenarios where we suddenly realize we've gone full circle. I would enjoy playing through that.

Thanks for listening man, glad you liked it. And yeah it’s one of those big complex questions. I’ve slightly revised my stance since making this video based on some comments and further thinking. Specifically that Ultimecia is a version of Rinoa from a tangent universe time cycle, which has paradoxically been avoided by the in-game events wherein the party defeats her. It took me a long time to consider that the in-game Rinoa and the Ultimecia-Rinoa operate on different causal timelines rather than a single linear timeline though, which is where my initial dismissal came from. But as you say, it’s infinitely interpretable which is part of the genius of this game, and my opinions have changed a few times based on conversations.

Which is exactly why she needed Elone. The time machine she was using to exert her influences was made by Dr Odine, after he studied Elone's power.

Yup

:'D Yup, I first played this game when I was like 10 and my inability to interpret words properly has apparently stuck with me.

Redcoat Still better than me. When I first played the game I mixed up the O and the N, reading it as 'Riona,' like I had Dyslexia or something.

Andrew Torres ultimicia can control time I think she could figure out how to live forever

It's an interesting idea because it supposes the story we play is not the first version of that story to have happened. Like in the beginning of the movie Donnie Darko he wakes up in a field and smiles which hints the time loop has happened before. One thing FF8 does very well is operate in a single universe chronology rather than introduce a multiverse theory etc, so whatever causes Ultimecia to exist and whatever she does during time compression has a direct cause-effect with the story we witness... this is where physics gets complicated, because if Rinoa/Ultimecia creates a happy ever after as you proposed then does that prevent Ultimecia ever existing. Same applies to Squall venturing back to Edea to prompt the beginning of SeeD... this stuff blows my mind lol

@@AlleywayJack I know right 😂. So for this theory I had in mind the way time changing would work in real life were you would only change that world and not your original one and you just create a new time line. Marvel does this in the End game movies as an example. As far as SeeD goes for that to fit in to this theory SeeD would have had an original creation and meaning, maybe by CId? Then after the time compression Squall would mention it to Edea, which then creates the him starting it and it’s original meaning essentially get lost in translation. It would also mean the game we see has to be at least three time changes out from the original world.

@@Beastlango Cool, yeah I like how the Avengers went with the tangent universe stuff and makes sense here. That's also just reminded me of one thing that's always struck me about the balamb garden, galbadia garden and trabia garden logos, and how they all have this omni-directional arrow pattern to them with an overlapping yin/yang thing as the centerpiece... I've always thought that this symbolised something to do with the time theme, and Edea's awareness of it when creating SeeD, it plays into your idea at least!

@@AlleywayJack I never realized The symbol thing, really cool stuff. 8 is definitely a lot deeper than it is given credit. Keep up the good work I have been loving your videos.

I like that.

Griever was created by Ultimecia during the final battle. The Ultimania has confirmed this, in addition to saying that sorceresses don't live any longer than other humans (meaning that the only way Rinoa could be Ultimecia is if she traveled into the future, which of course requires us to make that up as a possibility, since the only other time anyone does that is when Ultimecia begins the time compression). In summary, you have to make a ton of assumptions just to make this theory possible; it's no good. But the story is fascinating enough as is. If you follow the story, you come to realize there is no villain! Unless it's the stable time loop everyone is caught in perhaps?

+Vic 2.0 don't mean to sound dickish but I'm literally sick of seeing you post derogatory comments against ANY U=R Comments or theories. Also, you keep throwing out that Ultimania shit which, for all we know, could've just been some guy who worked with FF8 but has no in-depth relation to working on its story lol. Also, It's specifically stated that a Sorceress CAN NOT DIE until their powers have passed on. We've also been shown that sorcerers do have a means of surpassing their lifespan, i.e Adel being cryogenically frozen. So you can rule out your 'S0rc3rerz hAvE normAl lyfspanz!' That you keep persisting and throwing out there. I could go on -- there are literally too many indications that point to Rinoa being Ultimecia for me NOT to believe it's true.

k krn Yeah if you take my arguments against the R=U theory personal, that's neither my fault nor my problem. "Also, you keep throwing out that Ultimania shit which, for all we know, could've just been some guy who worked with FF8 but has no in-depth relation to working on its story lol." Lol@yourself. "The Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania is a book about Final Fantasy VIII originally published in Japan by DigiCube in 1999, *and re-released by Square Enix* in 2006." finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VIII_Ultimania It most certainly is canon. That you reject canon to make your favorite theory "work" is just a testament to how unfounded the theory was in the first place. "Also, It's specifically stated that a Sorceress CAN NOT DIE until their powers have passed on." Which only means that before she dies, he powers will be passed on. It doesn't imply it as even *possible* (much less probable) that she can live forever by simply refusing to give her powers up. "We've also been shown that sorcerers do have a means of surpassing their lifespan, i.e Adel being cryogenically frozen." This doesn't suggest Adel would've lived longer, no. At best it implies she will retain her *looks,* which are very likely magically set in any case. "I could go on -- there are literally too many indications that point to Rinoa being Ultimecia for me NOT to believe it's true." Such as?

I'd stick by my word regarding the FF8 Ultimania because I'm still not convinced it's completely accurate regarding the story concept. If anything square enix probably looks over it (considering a member of staff working on FF8 wrote it) and approved of it. It's not like they'd stop to point out any mishaps towards an ending that was never distinctively shown through the game. "Which only means that before she dies, he powers will be passed on. It doesn't imply it as even possible (much less probable) that she can live forever by simply refusing to give her powers up." There you go again with your biased assumptions which you just so happen to be positively certain on. 'Before she dies the powers will be passed on' well, yeah, to another Sorceress albeit but the game DOES state that they ~CANNOT DIE~ unless their powers have been passed on. "Cannot" and "die" being the words of emphasis here. Perhaps there aren't even any suitable candidates for Ulti to pass onto in her world? We can't even enter any towns or gardens by that point in the game, so, that's up for debate really. "I could go on -- there are literally too many indications that point to Rinoa being Ultimecia for me NOT to believe it's true." Such as? Okay, there are a TON of relative references between Rinoa and Ulti, I'm gonna go off the top of my head: 1. Rinoa, for one, states herself in the Ragnarok that she does not want 'the future' and instead wants the present time to 'stand still'. She's already thinking about time. 2. Rinoa makes claims of wanting to become a lion. Ultimecia's feet are beastly/lion like you could say? Either way, there's another feature that seems more than just a coincidence. 3. Ultimecia and Rinoa have the same dress-sense. Ulti's castle and Rinoa's bedroom have that same gothic victorian style. 4. Greiver. And sorry, but I doubt Ulti would pull out some random GF for the BIGGEST BATTLE OF HER LIFE. 5. Dissidia although I know its not cannon, I still think based on Ulti/squalls conversation that square enix either liked the R=U theory and wanted to fuck with everyone OR at some point they did have R=U in mind through FF8 but didn't have enough time/or thought it was too dark. The list goes on, do some research and/or play the game again. Or dont since you're so focused on disproving every R=U theory you come across on youtube lol.

k krn It doesn't matter what you're "convinced" of; the owners of the intellectual property have released it, making it canon. I can't help that it calls your favorite game theory into question. ME: "Which only means that before she dies, he powers will be passed on. It doesn't imply it as even possible (much less probable) that she can live forever by simply refusing to give her powers up." YOU: "There you go again with your biased assumptions which you just so happen to be positively certain on." Huh? No, all I just did was point out how there is no reason to think sorceresses can simply refuse to give up their powers and die. The burden of proof that they *can* do this, is on you. "Before she dies the powers will be passed on' well, yeah, to another Sorceress albeit but the game DOES state that they ~CANNOT DIE~ unless their powers have been passed on." Right, which again does not mean they won't die if they refuse to; that's silly. "Perhaps there aren't even any suitable candidates for Ulti to pass onto in her world? We can't even enter any towns or gardens by that point in the game, so, that's up for debate really." What difference would this even make, in relation to the theory? YOU: "I could go on -- there are literally too many indications that point to Rinoa being Ultimecia for me NOT to believe it's true." ME: "Such as?" "1. Rinoa, for one, states herself in the Ragnarok that she does not want 'the future' and instead wants the present time to 'stand still'. She's already thinking about time." You are presupposing that the theory is valid before looking at this alleged evidence. The simpler explanation is just that she didn't want that moment to end. It's nothing out of the ordinary which needs an off-the-wall theory like R=U to explain. "2. Rinoa makes claims of wanting to become a lion. Ultimecia's feet are beastly/lion like you could say?" Eh? Do you mean when she junctions herself to Griever? Because those are not her feet, lol. "3. Ultimecia and Rinoa have the same dress-sense. Ulti's castle and Rinoa's bedroom have that same gothic victorian style." Or, this is just what adolescent girls' and womens' rooms/houses look like in the FF8 universe. We really don't see any other examples to compare them to. "4. Greiver. And sorry, but I doubt Ulti would pull out some random GF for the BIGGEST BATTLE OF HER LIFE." Again, your "doubting it" doesn't matter. The canon of this intellectual property is clear: page 247 of the Ultimania reads "The witch Ultimecia materializes Griever as a G.F., pulled from an image in Squall's mind, and utilizes him in battle." "5. Dissidia although I know its not cannon, I still think based on Ulti/squalls conversation that square enix either liked the R=U theory and wanted to fuck with everyone OR at some point they did have R=U in mind through FF8 but didn't have enough time/or thought it was too dark." But do you have any *reason* to think that? Apart from already presupposing the theory is correct? And which argument are you using from Dissidia? The fact that assorted characters use each other's weapons in the game is true of *all* characters, not just Rinoa and Ultimecia. And when Ultimecia says "Let's dance" or whatever, it's enough of an explanation that she's acknowledging that she's female and he's male. But like I said, in light of the fact that sorceresses do *not* live longer than other humans and that Ultimecia exists "many generations" ahead of Squall and Rinoa's time, it's quite unlikely that they are the same person. And that's not to speak of questions regarding Ultimecia's memory/motivation for wreaking havoc on the world. To say that she's remembering certain abstract ideas or holding grudges but *can't remember what Squall looks like* (or anything to that effect) is illogical.

+randomuser1105 To be more specific, it doesn't hit anything vital. It's too high to hit his lungs, and it's too far to the right to hit his heart, so it's not really lethal. As for the whole point that "Squall must be dead, as he wakes up in the Desert Prison with no wound, and Edea wouldn't save him to interrogate him as he knows nothing" (wow, what a mouthful), he tried to assassinate a very important figure, and since Edea and the Galbadians have no idea who is behind it, naturally they would imprison him, rather than let him die, because if not, Edea's life would still be in danger, and it wouldn't make sense if she didn't take some sort of measure to avoid that happening.

+randomuser1105 True, but he falls from a height that would break his skull or snap his neck at the bottom. It's plain to see he's been dead at the end, but I believe, with time compression and all the love she harbors for Squall, angel Rinoa (Who was also dead, due to having her neck snapped by Ultimacia in Edea's body) was able to bring all of her friends into a world that contented everyone (or their own Heaven, so to speak)

+IshidaSado Come on, when you play the game, these guys gets hit by giant flare explosions, survive gravity collapsing around them (gravajija), meteors falling from the sky, ultima attacks and death lv5 (sometimes).I'm sure a fall won't hurt him.

justwhatchedthis1 Everyone in ff7 Could survive that stuff, but Barrett's friend Dyne died from a fall. It's just so the battles will be more interesting to the player, normally the moves used have nothing to do with the outcome of the battle (It's like when you get killed by a boss you get to try again. The character didn't actually die once. That was just the player's experience because the battle system is designed that way.

Squall falls from a height of about three feet, lol. They're still on the parade float, guys...

FreakAzoidFF FFDataBank very true also about the dream squall says she didn't know where to go cuase we haven't decided yet so I'll be here..... it's even in the intro and the story what if that's when they decided lol I love this theory cuase it makes the game so much more interesting

😂

Others say that ultimecia was the result of rinoa losing squall. Like that part in the ending where she finds squall, could have been the breaking point, and where she went mad, and accepted her powers...and her fear was losing anyone, as in the people in the party. Rinoa talks about these conserns when you take selphie to visit Trabia. I mean why else, would the plot dictate spending time with Rinoa. For example, you won't see the usual CGI of rinoa admiring the view from the flying balamb garden, if you send her in the party to dismantle, the Galbadian missile base...another case is at the fisherman's horizon, she will be the last one there after the cutscene when they reunite...

Thanks! I still wonder about the whole Ultimecia thing to this day. Some of the arguments for R=U and tangent timelines etc are quite interesting, but I just don't buy it. The sentimental 'home movie' part of the ending where Rinoa and Squall are unified is a great conclusion.

@@AlleywayJack Yeah, I particularly like that he was running through time and space at the end just in the hope of seeing Rinoa. It was a fitting end =)

😂👍

That makes an incredible amount of sense :D It's basically Donnie Darko

Yeah, makes awful lot of sense...there was a point during the Balamb invasion of Galbadia Garden, where Squall gives Rinoa his ring, and then the name screen appears...That is evident enough....Ultimecia also said something about how she wanted Squall to be stubborn enough to make his own decisions, or something as the such, during his story during Dissidia Duodecim... I also pondered why she really wanted Time compression...She was suffering from loss, and My question is why the fuck was a sorceress picking on a lonely military guy, with so much angst...?

***** Omg then watch that scene where Rinoa wants to spend time with Squall when they finally reach the hangar, on the Ragnorok. He asks her what about when we get back? Then she wonders if Esthar soldiers, and everyone will hate her because she is a Sorceress. If I am not mistaken, Is this what Ultimecia said about being outcasted for years when she had Edea kill the previous president, in front of the crowd in Deling City? That scene in Trabia, is a key scene too, where you described it. I think if Rinoa isn't Ultimecia, then ultimately Squall and RInoa were what she would have had, if she didn't lose what she was holding onto dearly. She could have had Caius from FFXIII-2/3...

Fektthis holy fuck dude I played this game so many times but I never renamed the ring I had same theory but I never knew the grievers name chsnge with the ring that confirms it in my book good catch

What if Ultimecia is Rinoa from a previous cycle. After the plot, ultimecia still using time compression transfers her powers to Matron, 17 years in the past. I am actualy replaying through, and at the part in near the end of disc two, where Rinoa talks about her fear of fighting the sorceress, why she feels she is falling behind the others, her fear of losing anyone in the party...and Squall's Ring. Isn't it funny that Ultimecia would have that GF with the same name as that ring, no matter what name you give it?

Joe H. I think ultimicia is rinoa it makes alot of sense

binh dinh Dat english tho can't even understand

Translation: Final Fantasy 8 uses the same faces for the sake of making it cheaper, just like how mortal kombat 3 has several characters that are the exact same but with different color schemes

It's not about the fact the room is pink and certainly not about the fact she's a woman, which I didn't even mention. It's the fact that the Timber Owls train is a dirty old train used for a utilitarian purpose, but she had her room flamboyantly decorated regardless. This, in conjunction with other factors, such as being called Princess and not having a proper plan lend to her image as being naive early on, and later matures as the game goes on.

***** Hehe, well I guess (somehow, miraculously) some people didn't find the actual plot of the game interesting enough. And so they imagined how it could be made more interesting. But that's what fan fiction is for.

Why are we assuming Adel would've lived forever/longer had she not have been released? All the chamber did was keep her contained; it wasn't necessarily keeping her alive despite her age.

"Knowing that killing Adel would have her pass on her sorceress powers to someone else, the resistance came up with an alternative: containing her. Laguna enlisted the help of his friends, Kiros Seagill and Ward Zabac, as well as the scientific knowledge of Esthar's top scientist, Dr. Odine. Although initially loyal to Adel, Odine's ultimate desire was research, and so he built a cryo-containment device to bind the sorceress's powers and place her in suspended animation for the resistance." We know this because she was not in a simple chamber that kept her contained she was in a cryogenic containment chamber. Also, because why would ,from my understanding, extremely advanced scientist simply place her in a containment chamber, as you suggest, knowing that she would still die and pass on her powers leaving all their efforts in vain and that they feared whoever received her power would be just as evil and cruel? Where they willing to take that chance? It's simple, no they were not stating that they were just containing her would seem rather dumb to me ,for lack of a better word, and these people are far from stupid they are the most technological advanced society in the whole game, so saying that I am sorry I have to disagree.

Kayla Massingale Neverminding that I don't know where you got that quote from, all it is saying *necessarily* is that they didn't want to kill her right then and there. Surely, containing and sustaining her would be preferable to that, even if it was only delaying her inevitable death.

Sorry but it clearly states cryo containment and it states they did not want her passing her powers and that this wasn't some short term solution that would make absolutely zero sense.

Kayla Massingale It would make perfect sense as a way of buying themselves more time, rather than just killing her on the spot. And I'm still not sure where you got the quote from.