rinoa being ultimecia would of been a wicked plot twist for a FF8 - 2. They could of done that, they still can. I'd buy it!

There are tons of clues throughout the game that point towards Rinoa being Ultemicia. After playing through the game at least eight times I noticed some interesting things. First. Following the course of events. Killing Adel and using Ellione's power to compress time and pull the party onto the same plain of existence as Ultemicia. During this process the party has to fight several different sorceresses named A, B, and lastly C. The lack of naming here seemed strangely specific, considering how Square hasn't had any issues assigning names to bosses prior. I believe that by compressing time, your party is forced to fight every sorceress since the beginning of history. Killing them while time is compressed effectively removes them from history. No names because well, they never existed. Why is this important? Because when a sorceress loses her powers they are passed on to someone else who has the talent for it. We know this from when Edea has her powers removed and they pass onto Rinoa. At the point where Adel is killed, Rinoa is the last sorceress alive in the present. Every other sorceress, past and future, are killed when time is compressed. This leaves only one possible person who could end up being Ultemicia in the future. Some might think why exactly you are forced to fight every sorceress during time compression? I believe it has to do with the sorceress power itself. The power seems to have a mind of its own, and it is parasitic. The final phase of the Ultemicia fight is with a faceless 'husk'. I believe this to be the sorceress power in its true form. Since the beginning of history this power has possessed people from the future. In hitching a ride with Ultemicia as she tries to possess Adel, you end up having to fight this thing in every person it has lived through. This is my standing theory anyways. Second. The student terminal in Balamb garden and Quistis during the GF tutorial both mention studies of memory loss associated with having GFs junctioned for a long period of time. Everyone except for Irvine forgets the orphanage due to GF junctioning. It is plausible that Rinoa could forget everything about herself and her past due to this effect. I personally believe that she views time itself as her enemy. Third. Naming Griever, Squall's ring in which a replica is made for Rinoa. There is wide speculation into how this ring becomes the embodiment of a GF. What we can be sure of is that due to the naming scheme, this ring ties Squall and Ultemicia together. Last. There are several FMVs. Both in the opening of the game and the end where Rinoa and Ultemicia are 'meshed' together. The whole Squall is dead BS? How many times do you stab Edea with a physically unrealistic sword that fires bullets before she queefs Ultemicia's possession out of her vagina? Stop trying to force some realism onto how Squall could possibly have survived Edea's Ice shards when we're talking about a Final Fantasy game here.

For me, SE just added more fuel to the fire by making Ultimecia say "Shall we dance" just before she fights Squall in Dissidia: Final Fantasy. I think the theory is true also. I mean, Rinoa could survive after Squall's death because she's a witch, and that could have driven her mad from grief. And like you mentioned, if she summoned Griever, that means she had it junctioned beforehand so it wouldn't make sense if she hadn't known it (i.e. she knows that is a powerful being as Squall states).

One big flaw in the reasoning of those who criticize the Rinoa-Ultimecia theory is that they say there is no way Rinoa could have lived "that long", assuming that a lot of time has passed between Squall's and Ultimecia's time. Well... 1) Sorcerers in FF VIII seem to age way slower than regular humans; just look at Adele; and if you are thinking "yeah but Adele was frozen in space", just look at Edea: at the end of the game you can see her, and she looks just like she did back at the time of the orphanage, while every one else (Squall and gang, Ellone, Laguna) aged a lot. 2) Why do we think so much time has passed at all? the only indication is that Odine says that she is using the Time Machine Ellone in a very distant future, but that is just his theory... he can't know for sure. For all we know, Squall and the others may have died of age during the next 50-60 years (after the ending) and Ultimecia's time may be less than 100 years in the future. Besides, if you take the Ragnarock in disc 4 and explore the world map, what's changed? do you see any new crater? any trace of further lunar cry? new cities? old cities destroyed? new or missing railways? and yes, this may be due to Square being lazy, but still we don't see the world changed at all. Even white seeds' clothes remain the same (they could have at least added some sci-fi elements to it, if it's such a distant future). Plus look at Esthar's technology during Squall's time: it's so advanced it's already a stretch to think they can't made weapons strong enough to fuck up a sorcerer for good in present times, let alone 400-500 years in the future (or more). Other things supports the Rinoa-Ultimecia. For example: 1) During the Trabia's Garden visit, Rinoa admits that she feels like she can't keep up with the others when they fight (aka she feels powerless): it's easy to understand why she would become as obsessed with power as Ultimecia is. 2) Her hate towards SeeDs; yes she hates them because they fight against sorcerers, but maybe also because a part of her mind reminds that all of her dearest friends (which are all SeeDs) left her alone in the end. 3) If I were her, after conquering the world I would have placed my floating castle above Esthar, the more advanced and powerful city, just to let the world know I mean business. "Hey look: your strongest city is my little bitch". Why on Edea's orphanage, instead? Because she is waiting "there" (for Squall)? 4) Guardian Forces and Griever; Guardian Forces may reside in creatures (like Carbuncle) or items (like Diablos), hence in rings too (see Doomtrain and Salem's Ring). Griever may reside in Squall's ring and may even be Squall's himself. Squall woved to protect Rinoa forever, even if it means fighting against the world: at his death maybe he turned into Griever, residing in the ring that passed to Rinoa (Ultimecia); do we know where GFs come from? no. They may have been humans in the past, for all we know. Just look at Siren and Odin's body shape, not counting that Eden has a human female figure inside of it. 5) Why summoning Squall's most feared creature? Yeah yeah he is the main character but come on... why should Ultimecia even care? Especially considering that she picks your party at random... sometimes she picks Selfie, Irvine and Quistis and still "the most feared creature" is Griever (they don't even know about its existence). 6) Griever's name: to grieve; about what? about leaving your beloved alone in a world where she is hated/losing your beloved one and remain alone in said world. 7)"But pal, how can she (Rinoa) stand in front of herself (Ultimecia) in the final battle? that's bs"; how can Squall stand in front of himself (as a kid) during the ending? ding ding ding. 8) Rinoa knows about Odine; during disc one she tries to seal Edea's power using Odine's ring; she knows about him during her youth = she knows about him during her old age (Ultimecia); How can Ultimecia even know about an Odine's old invention (Time Machine Ellone)? 9) She seems to know way too much about Squall's time. How? History books can help that much. She knows about the politics in Delig City, about Esthar and Adele (not even people living during Squall's time are sure where the hell Adele is; most of the population thinks she just vanished and can't even explain the radio intereference); Solution? She experienced that time line in her youth, and somehow those memories are spared from Guardian Force's memory-deletion effect (besides,we have proof that not all memories are deleted; for example, the party doesn't remember specific details about the other kids who lived in the orphanage, but they remember that they spent their childhood in the orphanage; besides they all remember the other kids when Irvine talks about it, which means that if you have the right motivation, you can remember; Ultimecia's motivation? being able to get her hands on Ellone and compress time). 10) During one of her last dialogues, she says she wants to create a world where the only joy is adoring her; looks like something someone deprived of all of her friends and love would want to do (aka Rinoa after the party and Squall's death). 11) She fights togheter with Griever, not just by using him; the only other character that uses another creature like that is, guess what, Rinoa (Angelo); other characters just summon GFs and let them do the trick. 12) Face painting; she is the only other sorcerer (beside Adele) using face painting; why? probably because she met her (as Rinoa) at the end of disc 3, she remembers her as this strong, unstoppable, creature and after becoming evil (cause of sorrow and loss) her subconscious tries to mimik her by waring a similar "makeup".

Final Fantasy VIII is just a dream Ultimecia keeps re-living over and over because it was her happiest moments with Squall, her friends from Balamb Garden, and her friends from Timber Owls. The End.

I always thought Ultamecia was Rinoa and Squall Descendent. That Pendant was passed on and somehow became a Guardian Force because of some reason or another.

Interesting theory and nice video. I played FFVIII many times in my youth so I can appreciate the spirited discussions. Here's my two cents: sorceresses live longer lifespans than mortals. Eventually Squall grows old and is near death. Using magic, Rinoa turns him into Griever and junctions him. Thousands of years later, due to GF Memory loss, she has become evil and no longer remembers Squall, having only a lasting hatred for SeeD.

I believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia; it makes perfect sense. She said in disc 3 "Squall's sword would pierce my heart," so perhaps that is her goal of eventually meeting Squall in the future. I mean, that's clearly what she wanted, it's not like she was doing all of this to destroy all SeeDs or anything like that and finally kill Squall, aka the "legendary SeeD." And hell, come to think of it, most people who are alone for so long develop Russian accents, being cooped up for so long.

TVTRopes Wild Mass Guessing. On the other hand (and sorry about the wall of text), while Rinoa and Edea both gain some exposure to Ultimecia's thought processes, it's unclear just how much exposure they gain or how detailed/accurate their impressions are, and whether or not they only know what Ultimecia *wants* them to know. Her plan does seem a little bit... fishy, when you look at it from the perspective of a Stable Time Loop and her stated goal of Time Compression - Ultimecia gets killed by Squall + co, at the last minute goes back in time and passes her powers on to Edea, Edea passes her powers plus Ultimecia's on to Rinoa, and so on, until the power reaches Ultimecia again, who tries to compress time, fails, and goes back to pass her powers on to Edea and dies... again. Even though Edea and Cid are the ones who start the See D and Garden projects and raise/train the very heroes who grow up to defeat her. So why, after the first loss, would Ultimecia not, say, go back to Adel instead of Edea, or avoid Edea and start with Rinoa, or something along those lines? Ultimecia in Dissidia has a cold and calculating personality, which fits with her descriptions in VIII; if a group of heroes proved capable of defeating her, why wouldn't she modify her time-travel plans to avoid them next time? The only thing I can think of is that either she can't change her plans because her time-travel abilities are too fixed or already set in motion, or, alternately, because we're wrong about what her real aims are. At one point, Rinoa basically tells Squall that if she goes evil and has to be killed, she would be content if Squall was the one to kill her. At another point, she tells Squall that she doesn't want the future, that she's afraid of it, that all she wants is to live in the present with Squall forever. And what do we know about Ultimecia? She's trying to compress all of time, and it seems like Squall is always involved with her final moments (as he's the one who goes back in time with her to tell Edea to start See D). Plus there are a myriad of little mysteries in the game - how did Squall survive getting impaled with a magical icicle by Ultimecia-as-Edea? If Ultimecia needs Rinoa to survive to pass her powers along to her descendants so that it can eventually reach her again (or because they're the same person), why try and kill her so damn often? But if we dismiss the supposition that this is a stable time loop, that doesn't work either, because some things need to happen every time for the events of the game to make sense (namely Ultimecia's death + time jump, and Squall's going back with her and getting the ball rolling on See D). Those are the same events that cause Ultimecia's downfall. Why would she let them repeat, then? Well, if she's Rinoa, it would be because she wants everything to go the same way. So hypothetically, let's say the Squall dies at some point after Ultimecia's defeat - maybe ten years or so. Grieving, and without Squall around to be her knight, Rinoa begins to lose her stability, and consents to being put into stasis so that she can neither pass her powers on to anyone else nor use them herself to cause harm, but also so that she can escape her own pain. This lasts until she is woken up; possibly on purpose, possibly by accident, maybe by an ambitious new sorceress looking to steal her powers or a government that wants to use her as a weapon... there are lots of options. Awake, Rinoa is consumed more and more by her bitterness; FFVIII's world is not kind to sorceresses, after all, and at this point not only Squall but all of her friends and family are dead and beyond helping her. So what does a bitter, powerful sorceress who is obsessed with the past fixate on? Time travel, of course! Initially Rinoa's goal is to find a way to somehow warp time so that she can live, forever, in the moments where she was happy. Thus, recalling Ultimecia's plans, she looks into ways of compressing time to suit her own purposes. At some point in her quest for power over time, however, the lightbulb goes on and Rinoa looks into the mirror on morning and realizes, uh, wait a minute, time compression, powerful sorceress from the future... that's Ultimecia staring back at her. Rather than freaking out, however, (or maybe after a violent and dramatic freak-out) Rinoa/Ultimecia realizes that this was her fate all along. She has become what she was once the most frightened of becoming, but in the end, she can still dictate one last aspect of her fate to comfort herself - her death. She can accept her end if it's Squall who gives it to her, but the only way she can meet Squall again is to go back in time, and if she becomes Ultimecia she knows she will successfully go back in time and get killed by Squall. And maybe there's a little bit of comfort for her as well in knowing that by creating the stable time-loop, in a way, the happy moments of her life will last forever because they will always be destined to repeat themselves, over and over again, in every cycle. So she adopts the role of the villain she remembers, going through events, giving Squall and the others reason to kill her (yet, conveniently, never actually killing them even when she successfully impales the ultimate source of her downfall and has him enough at her mercy to subsequently imprison him), playing the part of the See D-hating power-hungry monster (which isn't difficult, because she's mostly filled with bitter anger and hatred anyway) until Squall unwittingly grants her request and is the one to kill her. Then she dies with some oddly subdued parting words about reflecting on memories and the cruel, inevitable march of time, passing her power back on to Edea to make sure things go exactly the same way again, and guaranteeing that the cycle with start anew and grant both of her wishes - eternity with Squall, and an end by his hands.

Gotcha. Been a few years since I played the game, but that does sound right. Damn, now you really got me thinking about this theory. Can't believe this has been on the internet for so long.

Its also possible that the reason she attempted to kill squall and party is because she knew somewhere in her mind that they would kill her and ultimately free her from her insane and twisted reality.

To be honest, the U=R theory makes the game's story MUCH more intriguing. It pretty much makes the love story between Rinoa and Squall very tragic; you know, Squall knowing that in order to save the time realms he has to destroy the very person he swore to defend. Garland was another villain that was the first to experiment with the time loop. Perhaps Rinoa forgetting who Squall and company were via GF junction for x amount of time was the breaking point in the time loop.

Let's not forget Seifer, he had an interest in Rinoa which was reciprocated until his death. There was chemistry between the two and lo and behold, who becomes the Sorceress' knight? Mr Almasy himself, because of his old feelings for Rinoa

i got a good one for all of you SKEPTICS. Check squall vs Ultimecia in Destiny Odyssey , squall mentioned "i only came to fulfill my promise" and Ultimecia said " Shall we Dance?" do you all remember who said that ? yes. ladies and gentlemen, Rinoa

Ultimecia lives many generations in the future, at the time where the heroes can technically exist, but Ultimecia is a sorceress specialize in Time/Space magic (like Edea specializes in Ice Magic), so it would be possible for her to extend her lifespan. And in the final battle, Ultimecia says "Time...It will not wait...No matter...how hard you hold on. It escapes you...And...I...can't...disappear yet.", which means she lost something/someone precious to her in the past (interesting)

1.Sorceresses have a loooong timespan (look at cid and edea) also Ultimecia already controls space and time magic. she doesn't need to control ellone to use them, she just needs her for time compression. that could very well mean she went to to future.in fact, ultimecia uses tiem and space magic several times without Ellone's help, like when she moves to the past to pass her powers to edea or when she banishes your party members through space and time 2. In the end, Squall never gets his ring back, when rinoa offers to return it to him, just before she goes to the sorceress memorial squall tells her "You keep it" and never gets it back for the rest of the game. a simple theory to that would be that rinoa woke up from her slumber in the memorial, Just like Adel did, in the distant future, with very few memories (GF side-effect) and that ring 3. Ultimecia's castle is at the place where rinoa and Squall made their promise to return to if they ever lost each other 4. All sorceresses need a knight. A lover to support them emotionally so that they don't slip to insanity. Edea lost her willpower when she fought with her husband, cid and that gave ultimecia a chance to control her 5.the only time Griever's name is mentioned is when you name him. except rinoa, only squall knows his name. Ultimecia pulling him out of his imagination is not hard to accept, but she's not a mind reader, she doesn't know its significance or how strong squall imagines him to be. she also goes as far as to fuse with him 6.the meaning of the ending credits could be this too... after you defeat ultimecia her "reality" crumbles and you have to go through time(and space) compression again to return to your own reality. you repeatedly see rinoa getting erased from each reality (not from your memories only)as you travel back to your reality and you also see a reality where it was Rinoa who died in space before you reach her in time extra info: Squall is raine's son.his mother died soon after he was born, Ellone knew him since his birth and they were both taken to edea's orphanage. when ultimecia decides to pass on her powers to Edea, suqll is also there. he tells her seed were her idea.Edea ALREADY knows the purpose of SEED yet she demands to know while she's posessed by ultimecia who is Julia? we know she's Rinoa's mother but was she a sorceress? could SHE be ultimecia? could her night be laguna?

Squall is often compared to a Lion, amongst fans and in the game, for the main characteristics of Strength and Pride. Griever would questionably be the 'Lion version' of Squall, if that makes sense. And yes, I did make a large point in the video about Griever coming from Squall's mind, and how it backs up Rinoa being Ultimecia.

I was told that once you gain so many Hyne Fragments, your body and mind become distorted. That's why Ultimecia looks the way that she does. She's probably the closest to Hyne anyone is ever going to get. I really love this theory and support it. I think I've also heard that Square wanted people to make up their own theories with this game and they were never going to reveal anything. I don't think she compressed time yet when everyone got there. She hasn't taken care of it yet...

when rinoa comes to in space, i cried lol

People can speculate and over think the basic plot all they want it still doesn't change the fact that the party beats Ultimecia and after the credits you see Zell, Selphie, Quistis, Irvine, Cid. and Edea together at a celebration. Then Rinoa is seen alone on a balcony gazing into the night sky. She turns and smiles to see Squall, who gives ones of his rare smiles back. They all are real and alive in the final scene. The war is over, love conquers all.

Dude... this video is a lot better than your other one :3 But my fan-ness of Rinoa won't allow me to believe this theory no matter how much evidence someone could present me with xD

Rinoa is grieved by the loss of squall, but is stuck alone in the abyss... not having anyone to pass her powers to, and no way of remembering who she was, she went mad being alone and stuck with her grief for so long.... at any rate, it would explain some things, even if it is far stretched.

Ok so here's another argument: People say Griever was junctioned out of squall's mind because of his rings and such. But in the final video, rinoa was clearly shown to be wearing the rings on a necklace so we can assume that she wore them in the battle. So maybe, Griever represents the strength that she feels with squall. She says she feel stronger with the group. He makes her feel safe. Ultimecia loses griever when she loses squall but knows she can draw it out of her past self i.e Rinoa.

as FF8 die hard fans,i demand SE release FF8 sequel..

DeathToDrugUsers21, if you take a close look at the scene, you can see the ice spear didn't get any close to even scratching his rib cage, that means, his vital organs were safe. It impaled him on the shoulder only, and I can prove it didn't hit the Axillary Artery, the only major blood vessel in the shoulder area that could have caused considerable damage.

In the case of ultimecia and her time, there are still seeds who are fighting against ultimecia, as seen in her castle's entrance. For the time compression, it was said that the past present and future time had merged together, it didn't said that a time jumped into another time, THEY MERGED! so in any case ultimecia has been able to visit the past and present, so as with squall and co. and if that's the case, there is a great possibility that ulitmecia and squall along with the others have meet

Edea didn't want Ellone, Ultimecia did. She searched for her via Edea.

Square might have said that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia, but you can't deny that it is an interesting theory that gives depth to the story in a dark and creepy way. I haven't played the game, but I know some things about it... After all it isn't impossible that Ultimecia was once a nice happy girl that lost everything and then became "angry". Apart from the "Shall we dance?" phrase in dissidia, maybe we should also point out what she says about everything being an illusion during "time freeze"

Maybe this whole time, Ultimicia has been trying to keep Rinoa(her past self) to stay away from Squall, so she wouldnt fall for him and end up being alone upon Squalls death. I think thats why she possessed Adel to kidnap Rinoa.

Greiver is nameable, When you get to name Squall's Ring, Name it Bob and when you fight "Greiver" It will be named Bob. Also, if you Scan Greiver/Bob it will say The Strongest GF in Squall's Mind. That or Irvine got a sex change, killed Rinoa and took her powers, then went insane and became Ultimecia.

Continuing... There is a story told by Selphie (when they find out they all come form the same orphanage) where she states she used to have this toy which turned out to have a Gf inside. In a similar fashion, Rinoa holds the ring with Greiver inside. Goes to say that only Rinoa could have Greiver in possession, since Squall never took the ring back from her.

I really like this idea, it gives Ultimecia some background too, and ties the story all together. Otherwise, Ultimecia just turns up out of nowhere as the "Big Bad", and despite FF8 being my favourite game, that's one hell of a jump that does diminish the story a little.

i have another thing to say XD, in Dissidia, when the battle between Squall and Ultimecia starts, she asks: ''Shall we Dance'', which makes me remember the scene where squall and rinoa danced :P the last thing, at amoment in the game, Squall think: ''Rinoa, if you ever become a sorceress, i'll be your knight. i think that in the future, Rinoa became evil, and that Squall followed her. now, two options: squall died, and ultimecia became crazy. second, squall betrayed, so she became mad.

I see what you're all saying when you argue my point against Ultimecia not having contact with Squall in the past. Yes she did, but I meant in-depth contact. Squall didn't sit down with Edea or Adel (if Adel was ever posessed?) and have a chat with her about his ring, the name of it, etc. Only Rinoa really knew that. I meant more close-up friendly contact rather than brief periods of Squall hitting her in the face with a sword.

i think maybe she knew that he would save her too. i believe that maybe after she became the future sorceress, she realized that her powers were controling her and that she wanted squall to end it. she wanted to see him last and knew that he could kill her. i think that griever is the power drawn from squall's ring and that she went crazy after she out lived him.

The theory reminds me a lot of the story of Archer in Fate/Stay Night. In there, Archer is the older version of Shirou (the main character) after he became an embittered hero. He actually travels back in time for the sole purpose of creating a time paradox (killing his younger self). It's really fun. I can't help but think of the creators reading these and asking themselves: "Is that what I meant?" Seriously, writers can have subconscious ideas that manifest in their writing.

Adele is given the powers of the sorceress from Ultimecia in the time compression, so when Ultimecia dies, the time compression unfolds and then everything goes back to the way it was, and then the cycle starts over again. That is my idea, and may others have also thought of the idea as well. Weather it is true or not, Square will not elaborate as to keep the discussion going. It's just like the debate over if Vincent or Hojo is Sephiroth's father.

The game is way more enjoyable when Square put so many scenes wich lead us believe Rinoa is Ultimecia, from the castle Ultimecia built in the exact place where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet, to the scenes after the final battle. Adel didnt age a day and Rinoa was fused at one point with her, again misleading the audience. The striking resamblence in appearance and everything. All 5 members might have died from old age after the events of FF8 and Rinoa being slowed down the aging via Adels powers might lead her to despair and fear of death, just as the GFs wipe out her memory over centuries. Im rather glad Square never approved this theory and stated they will never make it cannon. And all we got about denial are coments made many years after the production. I might be speculating, but we can never know what the developer team had in mind back when they made this game leaving the question in the open is another way to make the games plot become more mysterious. :) If they said it was true Rinoa=Ultimecia, that would end all the fan-fiction. Im pretty sure that's not what Square had as a goal. Fun fact. Ultimecias original name in the JAP version was Aermeticia, the name of the wife who build Temple of Artemis (one of the 7 world wonders) as a momentum for her late husband, who was born in the lion sign. This clearly all feels intetional. Game developers don't add mysteries such as this in gaming these days. Such a shame. Even they are not the same person, making the game in a matter that it does mislead you believing so made the game way more enjoyable on the second walkthrough. I still love this game cos of it.

Well I say that because she seems very familiar and commanding of it. To be fair, there wasn't too much ground for me to make that statement, but it's definately a lasting impression that Griever is Ultimecia's servant, and probably has been for a while.

Her goal of time Compression which would kill everyone who has ever lived ever or is going to live, which would also kill herself and all past incarnations of herself is the most insane thing I ever heard, and you're wondering about the sanity of sending two statues after her younger self? Plus, if she were Rinoa, she'd know Squall would save her. The game's plot's insane no matter which way you spin it.

I like Ultimecia, she is the first female villain in FF universe (well, Cloud of Darkness has the body of a female, but he/she doesn't have a real gender, so Cloud of Darkness doesn't count), and I think Ultimecia needs more plot to make it clear why she is so full of anger and hatred like that, and why she wanted to achieve Time Compression so much. And "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory is the best explanation ever XD.

Hmm, I don't think so. It seems that the timeline follows the 'whatever happened, happened' rule, meaning, when Ultimecia travels back in time, or when the SeeDs travel in time, it always happened, in every timeline. A reason to believe that is in the ending. Squall travels back to Edea's house at the time she was the matron of the orphanage. He witnesses Ultimecia passing her powers to Edea and also explains the SeeD force that Edea will create. I believe that happened in every timeline!

Seems like Square pulled back on a "bad" ending at the last minute thats why you see Squall smile right at the end. And they prolly took some dialog out to make it fit. And now some things just dont make sense. Griever ? gave the ring to Rinoa and never got it back ? Ultimecia junctions Griever ? cmon ^^ would have been a epic story. still loved it tho my fav ff :)

@Gharmos I would think that since the whole idea of the dream in the Squall is dead theory is for him to tie up loose ends so he wouldn't leave gaping wholes like who is Ultimecia and what her motives are, so the Squall is dead and Rinoa is Ultimecia theories could coincide if we chalked up the story of Rinoa being Ultimecia to more of Squalls dying delusions to explain things. I choose to believe both because they're interesting and thats how I've always explained it to myself.

So yes, It is super clear that Rinoa is Ultimecia. It's not like it's been denied so many times....14 years later now? Yep, it all makes so much sense.

Funny thing is when I was 16, I often wondered this. Like in my game, Rinoa was definitely not dying in the story mode lol. Like, I remember sitting around the room with my little sister saying "I wish they would just kill her" but they never did smh Possibly because Ultimecia directly knew about Rinoa.

And for the record. FF8 is my favorite installment of the series, belieiving Squall died in Disk 1 before the theory was posted anywhere on the net, heha

Well Rinoa is a sorceress, she mightve lived happily with squall in one future but he died, and she didnt because she had such a long life span due to her powers. thats when she made greiver to have him as her "Knight".

I say this because Rinoa and Edea both seemed to have had, AT LEAST, some knowledge about Ultimecia after being possessed by her.

one thing that struck me was that in all the guides ive looked at, the final boss is called "true" ultimecia so i guess that the first form is rinoas shell, corrupted by the true one, which explains her trying to kill squall and co without fore-thought

@raptorking2000 I suppose not since the ending implies that the entire thing is a loop. Edea first recieved her powers from a dying Ultimecia and Squall was the one to give her the entire idea of creating SeeD and also letting her know that he was the little boy that just ran off, leading her to tell Cid about this and he later elects Squall to be the leader of SeeD knowing that he was the one destined to kill her in the first place *GAAASP*

@JayBarrington She is Squall's half sister and she has the power to go back in the past by using someone else mind. She tried to use Squall to save her mother from death due to an illness, but it didnt work Ellone was capture by Esthar by the orders of Adel Laguna came and rescue her when they finally got back i believe the illness finally got her but not before she drop squall.

like Gharmos say's it's possible i love rinoa it's my favourite character but there's 2 things you maybe had forgotten first one is that squall thinks to himself when they get rinoa's back from the sorceress memorial squall thinks ' even if you became the whole world enemy i'll became your knight' and when they go to time compression rinoa's say's 'i might disappear' like she somehow new she was ultimecia and don't forget that a sorceress can only really die when she passes her power to other

Also, if the writer says Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. That's when FF8 fans will SMH and go "now the story is shitty, its already hard to make sense of it because of the time compression, etc..." I mean, how would Ultimecia have even learned about Ellone, Squall's sister who was basically in the witness protection program IF she Ultimecia never met Squall at some point? I mean, NO ONE knew who Ellone was but Squall and Laguna. Squall BARELY remembered her but knew she was important to him.

I love it... really good points!

I always figured Ultimecia was a descendant of Ellone. Hell, she could even be Ellone after gaining some sorceress powers. If she and Ultimecia have the same abilities, then it would make sense that Ellone could survive in Time Compression. Well, we will never know for sure.

also, Rinoa's special Limit Break is Angel Wing, which makes her go berserk (I'm not talking about the Berserk status), and Ultimecia just happens to have Angel Wing all the time (well, with black feather), so maybe all the time Ultimecia/Rinoa has been berserk. What could make Rinoa so full of hatred to make her go Angel Wing and went permanently Berserk? Squall!

That's one of those things that makes the theory not-so-solid, however most people would argue "GF memory loss".

I wish in the very end scene where Squall and Rinoa were on the balcony Rinoa said she was Ultimecia.....

#1) Adel didn't age a day after she got the sorceress power, ijs #2) Why do it? The bitch was half crazy by that point. GFs, cocaine, meth and God knows what else for X amount of years #3) Griever ultimately seals the whole thing. Memory loss, etc. Thank you for bringing that up

there's also the thing about that greek god, altimesia (cant remember the exact name, it sounds like ultimecia) that she lost her husband and became a grieving widow (grieving - griever) and created a massive structure in rememberance of him (maybe her castle?) and went insane and stuff

I mean for someone who is coming from the distant future trying to eliminate all the seeds that would later try oppose/kill her I highly doubt that anyone who would go through all that trouble of finding some way of interacting with the past would make such a giant mistake like to killing herself in the past and destroying her very existance which is what she is trying to prevent, thus contradicting everything she is trying to accompish in the game.

uhh...actually, i think that throughout the game, Squall's been in contact with Ultimecia since even before the beginning of the game...remember in the ending where Squall was suddenly seeing images of his past with his younger self running away and Edea running after her then Ultimecia giving out her powers to Edea...and Edea waking care of him in the orphanage...proves that the Ultimecia living in Edea is the one in contact with Squall...and,,,

Even though it has been disproved by squaresoft, you have to admit that Rinoa being Ultimicia would of been a great part to the storyline

ultemica managed to take control of people using that machine that odnine made which replicates ellones power. She took control of rinoa ofc and had her memories too, also rinoa had squalls ring in space. She could have created the GF from that and then junctioned it.

@JayBarrington Ellone was the little girl from Laguna's past. She was raised in the orphanage after Raine died with Squall and the others. She has a special power - she can send people's consciousness back in time into other people's heads. This is why the party occasionally blacks out and "dreams" about Laguna and the gang. Ultimecia searched for her so she could use this power.

The only way i can make sense of the game is when ultimeca uses griever, she uses it as a last ditch effort to beat squall with the only thing strong enough to beat him, himself, as she is a sorceress, she can do this

If Ultimecia was Rinoa in the past due to time paradox theory they would have both died in a mass explosion when Ultimecia inherited Rinoa's body when Edea gave up her powers after being defeated.

It's possible that ultimacia is rinoa from a DIFFERENT time line where she either never met squall or was never saved by squall after landing the ragnorak. But in THIS time cycle Squall does save her so her future is changed. again just a theory.

Square has confirmed that rinoa is not ultimecia. Square-Enix points out the singular great flaw in the whole idea. The theory's only support was that the Sorceresses have extend lifespans and when SE pointed out that wasn't true and remind everyone that Ultimecia's only motivation was that she didn't want to die ruins the theory

Well Squaresoft said no, that means no she isn't Ultimecia. But these theories are reasonable, could it be a coincidence? 1. Griever's theory that Ultimecia extracted it from Squall's ring as you can extract Doomtrain from the Solomon Ring. 2. Why the hell is Ultemecia's Castle next to Edea's house where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet? 3. You can see the Headmaster Cid he's all like old while Edea is still young this has something to do with "sorceresses never age." which allow Rinoa to live.

ultimecia have known the existence of ellone and her power by the invention made by dr. odine mimicking the ability of ellone, and that is in the future(this is said by odine in the game). on Griever's case, rinoa isn't the only one who carried the ring(or who were always beside Squall), Zell also carried the ring when he tried to make a copy of it(but it was unfinished). And since ultimecia is a sorceress, don't you think she might have created griever from scratch or from the ring?

Square has directly stated that Rinoa is definitely not Ultimecia.

It's a bit confusing whereby I can't remember if it was a spokesperson or in game but it has been made mention of that a sorceress cannot extend her life beyond that of the normal human being she used to be. It seems odd to also say that they cannot die until they've passed on their powers. I mean... what if, like Ultimecia, you were all alone? She had to travel back in time to give her powers to Edea but what if the Sorceress wasn't powerful enough to do that? She'd be "dying" forever?

My theory? I think that a lot of work went into HINTING Rinoa was Ultimecia, but for some reason or other, the story connection was dropped during development. There's too much material to ignore it.

I would like to point out something that I hardly see online. Search on Wikipedia the name Artemisia of Caria. "She is renowned in history for her extraordinary grief at the death of her husband Mausolus." Also King Mausolus' symbol was a lion, as show on his coin (go to his wiki page and you will see pictures). So Artemisia, who is famous for GRIEVING her husband who uses lion as his symbol, so much so that she built one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (Mausoleum at Halicarnassus) to honor and remember him by. Coincidence?

It's a shame the version of Squall SHE uses didn't junction 100 Ultimas to his strength and doesn't have the Lionheart gunblade. Might've stood a chance.

Of course Squall is a lion, his surname is Lionheart after all...which backs up the theory that Griever is linked to him, which in turn supports the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Guys, this seems pretty clear and it would make so much sense. Rinoa IS Ultimecia, so many evidences to back it. As for why she would want to kill Squall, how can you possibly try to explain a rogue mind?

And in disc 1, when Squall first encountered Edea(possessed by Ultimecia), Edea/Ultimecia did not kill Squall knowing that he IS the legendary SeeD who will kill her in the future. Why did not kill him? To know the true purpose of Seed? She've encountered and killed so many SeeDs before Squall (disc 4, outside Ultimecia's Castle), she could've asked them about it.And she knows Squall is the Legendary SeeD, why not just kill him and torture the other SeeDs so that they would spit out the secret?

ultimecia did meet squall when they were in space and she possessed rinoa and freed adel and squall was trying to stop her

Here's something I thought that was interesting. It's about Griever. If it already existed (as a GF elsewhere), why would it give you the option to name it whatever you wanted? Unlike other GF's, you can only name them once you obtain them, but they are only that name to you, they still maintain their own name. The only person who would know "Grievers" true name would be Rinoa, because he is the only person he told about him. I disagree that Griever IS squall. There is no mention anywhere in the game that people become GF's when they die (this might have been mixed up with FFX). Another thing we know GF's can be bound to items and summoned once conditions are met (ie doomtrain and diablos). So, if Ultimecia existed many generations in the future, it is VERY unlikely that she just stumbled upon Squall's ring and named it the exact thing he told Rinoa. OR she just had the ability to summon him because Squall lacked that one item... or you know didn't have magical space tearing powers. Your pick

If rinoa is ultimecia, then the story also makes so much more sense..

With theories like squall's dead, and rinoa's ultimercia, and them not being the intended story, it just goes to show - if you're going to use time travel you need to make it clear, and make a story that can match fan theories, which are more interesting.

gotta google it or watch the full ending elsewhere on youtube, this vid blacks out before it shows. but basically there is a huge head-thing in the shape of Griever on the moon after the very last scene in the game.

i think the rinoa=ultimecia theory would be really awesome if it were true. I think that square could adapt this concept into a possible motive for a remake or sequel. As much as everyone wants to believe that a good person will never become evil well... thats just not always the case ;P through hardship and pain anyone can go through a change of heart.

Ultimacia came into contact with Griever she she possessed Edea.

For Anyone that wants further explanations as to how this could be held as truth, here's a link of multiple FF8 Theories written by people who have played through the game multiple times to come to their conclusions.

My point was that if he ever died, it'd have been of an infection, not because of the wound alone. Because, as I said, the ice spear didn't hit any vital organ, and since in the shoulder area there's almost nothing that could cause too much damage if hit, only this single artery (the Axillary artery, which wasn't injured, I can prove).

Not to mention Quistis was never a sorceress. The only 3 sorceress confirmed are Adel, Rinoa and Ultimecia. If someone else had that power, Ultimecia would have counted that for the time compression?

Maybe Rinoa is really Ultimecia. Now I have this theory about it. When Squall dies at the hand of Edea at Disc 1, we see Rinoa going for him and calling him. And because of much grieving about Squall's death. Rinoa creates another persona which is Ultimecia, and she absorbs Squall's GF (which is Griever) and got the power of compress of time. And then Ultimecia goes to the past where she can undo the death of Squall, and then disc 2 happens. But the thing about this theory is, Ultimecia didn't actually go the past, but in another parallel dimension where, Squall still lives. And so she finds her another self. So there is two Rinoa on that dimension. And that is where the disc 2 starts. This theory I've have formed is based on all the theory that I've review regarding FF8. Now as you can see, in disc 2, it's like all the fortress, castles are floating in the air. That's because this is in another parallel dimension, which is, in the world where Ultimecia came from, they got no flying things like that. So that confirms that Ultimecia didn't go the past but in another dimension. That also confirms that Squall's GF which is Griever is within Ultimecia all along, because she already absorbs it when Squall's died on her world. Now, Ultimecia thinks that she is in the past, and is jealous of the other Rinoa because supposedly she should be the one who's with Squall. So she try to destroy there relationship. But in the end, got defeated. Now when Squall's kill Ultimecia, memory of the other Squall overlaps his. (Because Griever) And the end where Ultimecia says "Reflect on your childhood" she means that see through the memory of the other Squall. And that's why his seeing the memory of it, seeing Rinoa from the other dimension is actually Ultimecia.

Ultimecia could be from the timeline where Squall died trying to save Rinoa. What if the vision he had of Rinoa dying in space was an actual memory given to him due to compressed time. There is some time manipulation in this story though, think of how they float in space and of all chance stumble upon Ragnarok. Do you know the probability of something like that happening, perfectly timed.

point against Ultimecia: in fact, we can't relate her identity to "our/present" age at all. because she never interacts with any of the characters personally, they're just "kursed seed" for her. the only kind of interaction was drawing Griever's image from Squall's mind. some may ask why did she return in that age and passed her powers to Edea? answer is simple: because that age had no active sorceress yet. all Ultimecia wants from that age is Ellone for Time Kompression.

You can name the ring something else, and Ultimetica's Gf will have the name you gave the ring *. Squall talks about the ring exclusively with Rinoa. I know this of a fact. I did change it myself and it was called what I had written. *The screen where you name your ring actually shows Ultimetica's Gf icon. The scan of Griever writes something along the lines: it is created out of Squall's thoughts. Though I still have one question: Why would Ultimetica need a Gf if she is a sorceress?!

I personally think its an interesting theory- it makes the story of the game all that more interesting... I wish it was true though :(

@strawberrycereza Sorry for the late reply. I can't remember where it came from. I saw a few loose ideas floating around the internet and decided to compile them into a video. That was my first video. This video was more of my personal ideas about it, and just to clarify that I didn't really care, so there was no point in starting a flame war or anything :P I'd have to search Google for more theories, and so should you. I didn't come up with this theory myself.

The part of timper guarden, revealing that everyone knew its other from their very childhood excluding Rinoa, made me reallise that plot is fcked up. I mean when you first meet everybody at 1st CD, noone seems to know each other. That makes me think that team made ff8 story, are unable to craft an unltimecia-rinoa background story. Is just a Coincidence.

Yeah man, I worded it poorly but in the first video I said in the first slide "Even though it's disproven", by that I mean Square pretty much said no. There wasn't any empirical proof or anything, but whatever.

Although Square announced this is non-canon, there is always the possibility that the writers were thinking of this on some level but did not fully implement it or decided against it etc. Unlikely but it is still possible. Second, didn't Ultimecia only Junction with Griever during the fight? I suppose she would have to be junctioned to him to summon him in the first place. I really like the idea of Ultimecia being Rinoa and forgetting everything she knew though. I have a feeling that all these cool theories about Squall being dead might just be poor writing - E.g having the whole story revolve around him and ignoring previous realistic relationships between characters. But the story does seem really strange with the trip to space and such... Also the whole Griever thing really confuses me. Surely its more likely that Griever already existed and Squall admired and feared it for whatever reason?

Pendant's called Griever, his best gunblade and limit break are called Lionheart.

Uhh... she didn't have the same hair. Ultimecia had huge hair antlers that she couldn't have walked through a door with. Shockwave Pulsar was Griever's limit break, not Ultimecia's and a small jealousy which she got over by the end of the game is not enough to warrant destroying all of time and space. Not to mention Quistis was never a sorceress.