The next book is called Dune Messiah

Not every race has a Reverend Mother, and most that do are part of the Bene Gesserit. On Dune BGs were there early on to spread the prophecies, those were members of the Missionaria Protectiva. On Dune, with all the spice available, the Fremen created their own Rev Mothers, 'wild' ones as the original order considered them.

You guys get that Paul gaslit and entire civilization just to kill his father then set a holy crusade in motion that will kill billions of people right? The main message of Dune is that the "story of the messiah" of a savior coming to rescue a population is a tool used by politicians to control their people and use them as tools of violence. The Fremen aren't burning bodies at the end of Dune because they don't need the water, they are doing it because Paul has changed their culture so drastically. The opening monologue of the first Dune Chani says "Who will our next oppressors be?" then it cuts to Paul sleeping and we watch his rise to power. He literally says after he takes the water of life "We are Harkonnen...we will survive by being Harkonnen." The Fremen have traded one Harkonnen for another prettier one with nice hair. What kind of ruler will Paul be? What comes after the jihad? He was willing to sacrifice thousands of fremen not to mention the billions more who will die in the coming war (which he knows is going to happen because he can see the future), so when this guy actually gets power is he going to be some one you should trust with it?

I haven't watched it yet did they really not get that Paul is no saviour?

​@@pablolacalle6098 Not at all

@@Illmare living up to the Normie name huh

I've been in multiple arguments with people on KZfaq since 2 came out.Trying to tell me that paul is a messiah and a chosen one. I'm like, Did you even watch the screen during the movie? You can always tell what fans haven't read the books

​​@@pablolacalle6098 if a Chris isn't here to explicitly say it to them then they miss everything

the technology is MORE advanced in many cases. They have the best stillsuits in the imperium

@@deek60819 Yeah, there are some people who try to make reproductions of Stillsuits, but how they make their stuff is a very closely guarded secret among the Fremen and so nobody can match them.

and they've been paying of providers of spy sattelites over Arrakis, to hide their sietches, that's why the harkonnens misjudged thir numbers so badly, they have Ornithopters as well

@@deek60819i mean you don’t need stillsuits in any other place and since they are the real “owners” fof arrakis is kinda obvious they would have the best of it.

Technically they are 'primitive'. They are only 'advanced' in the tech they need to survive, nothing else.

I had read that Herbert was disappointed his message wasn't clearer with the first Dune book so he went hard with the message in Messiah to make sure it was clear. And obviously, as you said, Villeneuve tried to make it clearer here and it's still evading so many people. The Normies weren't as bad as some reactions I've seen but I'm not sure I've watched one yet that truly understood how tragic the story is.

True, also it was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia which tells a story with similar values.

@@bicranium7198 Frank Herbert went for subtlety in the first Dune and very much wanted the reader to read between the lines. Villeneuve did make it clearer but he still kept it relativity subtle. Its not a good thing when a major story element goes over people's heads but Dune is a breath of fresh air compared to today's entertainment being so ham-fisted and with the writers constantly screaming at the audience.

The problem to some degree is Herbert also did make the story effectively true. Like as far as we are concerened in terms of the Kwisatz being able to see the future Paul only has a single path that realistically leads to eventual everlasting peace. He doesn't want to do it but his only options is to sacrifice his own sanity and morals to save humanity or to selfisly reject it and run away which will doom humanity and cause more deaths anyway. The only conculsion one can come to based on Herberts own words is even though it's the least shit path the price paid is still not worth it. It's better to doom humanity than to save it at the cost of billions. It honestly confuses itself slightly in that way.

​@@bicranium7198they are literal Normies, consumerist lefty lowest common Denominator types. Of course it went over their heads .

Agreed! He was like Morpheus in this movie. It’s just sad & tragic how he devolves from wise, experienced mentor to religious fanatic on blind faith…

Jesus I hope you're not serious. The whole point of the story is how prophets are BS and fanaticism ruins people like it ruins Stilgar

it works out both ways, comedic relief & the point author was trying to make. Fanaticism sees no bound & Stilgar is a perfect portrayal of both ideas

Lisan al Gaib!!!!

Its so funny having watched Life of Brian reaction not long ago they nailed Stilgar to a tee

I do think this is setting him up for an excellent arc in the next movie though.

I mean, Paul literally does bring a green paradise to Arrakis. He's a messiah who can literally see the future. So how fake is Stilgar's faith really? And we do see he has some amount of realistic agency about the legitimacy of the prophecy when he strong arms Jessica into becoming their Reverend Mother. He wants to make it real, to bring about change. And it works.

@@merpderp8222 True. Tired of all this "blind faith" crap. All the prophecies come true and Paul literally has super powers. Anyone would believe. The story isn't a warning about blind faith, it's a warning about justified faith.

​@@JWar- But it absolutely blind faith though? that just means he has no doubt what paul says is right, not that there was no reason for his faith. DUne in its entirety is about the dangers of charismatic leaders after all. It turned a wise leader in Stilgar to a more mature version of John Cleese from Monty Python's life of brian lol

​@JWar- Liet Kynes or his father was the one thay brought the dream of Green Paradise to Arrakis it wasn't even their dream. The Bene gesserit planted theseeds of the fremen's future manipulation. Paul is the product of centuries old breeding program to see the past more clearly It's not fake, more like manufactured

YUP. i can't wait how Denis would do the third movie.

Dune 2 discourse has become book readers jerking each other off, because they know the bad things Paul will commit. Smh

Yeah, I do think there was needed a sequence at the end showing Paul attacking the other houses, commiting horrible acts and bringing death and horror, sometimes is needed to be a little more explicit. Maybe they'll show that in the next movie

i mean they didnt show the innocent people of the imperium. all they showed were the opps being evil. sure the visions said he would do "terrible things" and bring about a "great war" but as far as we know, this is just another "black and white good vs evil story" like starwars.

Yeah, the best movies show people enough that smart/attentive people can figure it out through observation, but also eventually make it super clear for everyone else. It is unbelievably hard to get through to 80+ percent of people without spelling things out.

It’s too bad they had to dumb it down to the point that it got annoying (Chani constantly whining and crying about it.)

@@Gunnar001 It seems like they haven't dumbed it down enough, considering this reaction.

I'm a firm believer in the "death of the author".

@@ninjatoriumnova2483 it's not about "dumbing it down", it's about not providing any alternative. How are the viewers supposed to be against Paul when all they've seen are comically evil Harkonnen?

@@electricant55 Because there can be two bad sides. Not every story needs a hero.

For real, I wanted to holler Lisan Al-Gaib but I think they would have called security. I am way too brown to be yelling in weird shit in public spaces.

He's got some pipes on him for sure.

@@nullunit This is the funniest comment I have read today. Maybe because I can relate 😭

Yeah, he got with me that and I wasn't sure if Chalamet could pull that off. Lisan Al Gaib!!!

"The King" on netflix tho

Nah. You would say the same for a messiah.

@@di3486 And that's the danger that Herbert wrote about. He's not a messiah. He's a villain that the people created.

​@@SilverEye91Paul isn't a villain. FH's warning about charismatic leaders more applies to followers and their escalation of force than the leader himself. In the book Paul desperately wanted to prevent the jihad, and only gave into it when his infant son was killed in a sardaukar raid. By the time he marches into the Emperor's throne room, Paul realizes that there's no way to stop the jihad. The best he can do is attempt to direct it. It slips from his hands, and by the second book Paul is a shell of his former self.

i mean its hard to care about the rest of the imperium when weve literally seen none of it except for harkens and scheming emperor. blame the lack of world building.

Book readers : " SILENCE !!!!!!! "

Which male lineage...?

@@perrymanso6841 Every male in his bloodline on both sides

Mentat?

@@Killerkwoi13 As far as I know the water of life gives the knowledge of the previous Bene Gesserit, not people from outside?

@@perrymanso6841 No it gives you every person in your lineage BG or otherwise, it's just that only BG women have ever survived the water of life, until Paul.

Geidi Prime is a highly industrialized planet in the Imperium. Most of the natural beauty there: Flora, Fauna, etc. has likely been choked off, removed. Or probably perished because of their black sun

Interesting thing is that that Geidi Prime footage was not shot with a black and white camera. But with a Alexa LF, modified so it could only see infrared and not any visible light. so it is infrared spectrum footage not black and white footage.

@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106 I think that is what turned their teeth black - unless its just mouth guards

@@edwinsuijkerbuijk5106 It was such a good choice. The Giedi Prime sequence was absolutely visually stunning.

@@CatCubed It gave the prop department a lot of extra work when the choice to shoot infrared was made. Denis Villeneuve wanted clothing to show up as black and this meant they had to change a lot of the materials originally used.

yes, hence why the shield appeared black. It's the same shield everyone uses in both films, it just looks crazy in infrared

I freakin love Harkonnen's planet aesthetics!

The best hype man ever😭

"What did I say, huh? WHAT DID I SAY??? LISAN AL-GAIB!"

It isn't just that, it's also to cover for his Paul in his moment of perceived weakness so that the enemy don't get any funny thoughts. A great scene.

@@comancostin4623 agreed thats what i felt too.. i think everyone in that room thought paul was going to get killed near the end of the fight so this was his way to cover it for him

I didn't know Villeneuve can pull off a comedic scene like this 😂

Yes

So would you suggest I pass on this reaction? Are there any good reactions that understand what's happening?

Come on it isn‘t as obvious as everyone says. You‘re all talking in retrospect, wirh knowing what happens in Dune Messiah.

@@pl9462 Nope, never read the books or watched the previous films. This movie is very obvious with its messaging. Not obvious enough, though, it seems.

@@pl9462I mean dude one of the reverend mothers literally says they planned the whole thing lol it was VERY obvious and I never read the books

They didn't change shit. They just made Chani more complex

@@LauraGS564 They changed more than one detail of the story, it's dumb to not admit that. Including Chani, she supported Paul in the original. But in this version she's the voice of reason, which makes her more interesting, but more importantly, more clearly communicates to the audience the idea of Paul not being a hero and his path not being "good". But that's too much for modern viewers, like The Normies. YAAAY LISAN AL GAIB!!!1111 HAPPY ENDING BABEH!11

The issue with the message of Dune is that Frank Herbert wanted to say "charismatic leaders are inherently dangerous because of the uncritical loyalty we give to 'great men of history.'" However, for that to be your message, you can't have your lead character be a straightforwardly evil person. Because the point isn't that Paul specifically is bad, but that nobody should ever end up in Paul's position to begin with. Plenty of people are going to miss that nuanced point because Paul is depicted sympathetically and does not undergo any kind of heel turn. But he DOES start a space war that viewers won't see the implications of until Part 3

@@LauraGS564 Basically they made Chani an atheist so that the "chosen ones might be bad, actually" subtext could be voiced for the audience. But for many reasons, a lot of people aren't going to have that takeaway of the story ... and I think some viewers might actually feel a little betrayed by how Dune Messiah depicts the fallout of Paul's actions in Dune Part 2

@@DanteRU0312 lol relax bro, they just weren't emotionally invested in the story and just enjoying the visuals...

Yes, I think it was introduce by Pardot Kynes

In the books the Kynes family taps in to the Bene Gesserit's seeded mythology among the Fremen to make terreforming an objective of religious significance because their plan will take 500 generations and religion is the only way to ensure that the goal is passed down into deep time.

350 to 500 years, not generations​@@billhutchinson6318

I like it it’s seeing a take that’s both the same and different it’s a book about politics and religion there’s no way the events weren’t gonna be subjective if the ending isn’t

That’s why slapping in the face with the message was not necessary. They change the best of the story and it was wasted.

it didn't soar over their heads, they just weren't that into the story that much... they were joking around most of the time, it happens

It’s interesting what’s considered primitive. The fremen are shown to have superior tactics and still suits but are seen as lesser for lacking any space faring vessels

i love that the advanced tech makes no use of screens, just some holos, i kinda wish our technology would evolve into that

Their tech is based upon the conditions in which they live, their environment.

@@jimtamsno computers allowed in Dune so minor projectors is probably all they have

@@darrylguerrant5101 and yet the sieches of the fremen are factories, water collectors, and armories. They are more like strongholds than decorated caves. They have industrial infrastructure, but don’t really need anything more than that

That's what happens when you joke and talk through the entire fucking movie

That just sounds like you judging the reaction with the hindsight of knowing what happens next. Everything Paul does in this movie is heroic and quite righteous. Yes, people will cheer for him!

@@hirvale no it is not lol. He is literally enslaving those people and taking them to commit genocide. Nothing he does in this movie is heroic lol. Dude missed the whole point of Herbert's story

@@LauraGS564 here you go again, saying things that didn't happen 😂. Go back to your books since you can't remove yourself from their context.

@@LauraGS564the books are much more clear about how Paul’s religion is taking over these people but it’s not as easy to see in the movie. like multiple quotes from the book say how Stilgar goes from a friend to a follower. you don’t get that in the movie.

yeah this reaction was kinda weird tbh

@@deek60819 I mean lets be honest this is the D-team

Yeah wish they just reacted to everything and not just talk over like 90 percent lol like let the scene marinate damn haha

@@qcrew2938 Marketa alone is enough to make any team she's in be the F team lmao.

Yeah agree takes away from the art I watch movies and reactions to share and get away not to here love for actors or shot locations

Thank you that's what I've been saying. They created a prophecy that they could easily fulfill. What people say is the prophecy came true. Of course it did it was designed to. And it was vaguely worded so that had Paul drank from a spring in the desert, it would have come true. The Lisan al-Gaib would be born in the South. Paul wasn't but he was reborn there after drinking the water of life. You can twist a vaguely worded sentence to mean almost anything. That's how this scam works

damn so lady Jessicas the true villain..

@@thatweirdbwah_yes, they make it very clear in the movie that she's manipulating people yet I'm still seeing people confused lol.

​@@thatweirdbwah_ mother of villians

wrong the prophecy of the lisan al giab is organic in creation, the BG do not know about the water of life so they coudln't have created that part of the faith

Paul had many visions that didn't end up happening

​@@electricant55Well, the one where 60 billion people died by his actions did happen lmao

@@martingenero6328 and how are they supposed to know this? people give them shit for not checking spoilers online lol

@@electricant55 Uh? Whos they? Wth you talking about? I was talking about Paul Atreides

@@martingenero6328 the normies

Every house has atomics, Im not sure why the hardons didnt use theirs

Correct, and this is an important point. The Houses all adhere to something called the Great Convention which absolutely forbids the use of nuclear weapons against human beings. All Houses are mutually pledged to destroy a House that violates the ban. Paul skirts the problem by using the Atreides family atomics to destroy the massive rock Shield Wall that surrounds and protects Arrakeen. This both allows the huge sandstorm to enter the basin (disrupting the shield on the Emperor's ship) and the sandworms to follow carrying the Fremen warriors. In the novel, after the Fremen defeat the Sardaukar, the Emperor accuses Paul of violating the Great Convention. However Paul dismisses the accusation by saying he only used the family atomics against a natural feature of the desert. ""It was in my way and I was in a hurry to get to you, Majesty."

@@MongooseTales very cool. I didn’t read the book. That’s a cool extra nuggets I didn’t know. I wonder in the movie didn’t the bomb did kill some saudakar? Like the huge amount of rocks trampled some of the soldiers. It’s that still considered adhering to the great convention?

seriously it's like they just forgot the entire story from the first film

Did you fuckers not watch the first film? It’s like y’all just completely forgot about the important details and just talk about stupid ass jokes…

No for real. When I saw it in theaters the hairs on the back of my neck stood up at attention!

Watched it the first time and had the same feeling, took my sister to watch it last night and she goes wtf 😂😂😂

I read somewhere that the Sand riding sequence took them 40+ days to shoot & lemme tell ya', it definitely showed

That MMO that is coming out looks like they are incorporating all that float tech and I really want to be a floaty murder machine on Arrakis.

I looked at my sister and we both did this "this is awesome" look.

Well I mean eren only for sore his future and past at the same time so it wasn’t that eren so many possibilities he only saw one

on some tantric shit lol

The Fremen are all about the edging.

But how can the semen reach where it's supposed to reach for biological reproduction purposes without ejaculating???? 🤔🤔

The fremen are the ultimate no nut November gods. I remember when I was a horny religious teen I wanted to learn how to do that to get through a loophole in gods rules…. Lmao.

@@jimtams finch with the ficus plant 💀

yeah i only ever saw the trailer for elvis and was like "oh great another talentless pretty boy hollywood is trying to cook up"... and when i saw this i was like "oh damn my guy is terrifying, this dude can act his ass off"

​@@jimtamsTbf, the guy was in a Quentin Tarantino and Jim Jarmusch movie in the same year. That's not exactly the kind of thing that happens out of nowhere. 😂

Also in Dune book lore, the Fremen are covered more in their heads than the hoods used in the film (understandble so the audience can differentiate characters).

Christopher Walken was the Emperor in 1984's Dune

@@lks3052No he wasn’t José Ferrer was. Walken wasn’t even in the first dune.

@@lks3052You probably watched an edit someone made when he was playing a different character but imposed into the original dunes’ scenes, i dont blame you it was well done but evidently a joke.

@@lks3052 in what world

@@lks3052 We got a worldhopper over here

Is he really Palpatine though? In the end he is merciless and ruthless, but the golden path is something to be achieved through this. Palpatine was no martyr, no self made villain for humanity to overcome and outgrow. I don't think that comparison is apt.

@iantha999 The entire creation of the kwisatz haderach was a colossal mistake on the part of the bene gesserit. That Leto 2 cleaned up their mess doesn't mean the 3000 years of tyranny and oppression he put the galaxy thru was justified. The ends do not justify the means. Every life crushed under the boot of Letos regime was a human being with dreams of their own. They were not statistics, no person is.

@@iantha999 I haven't read the new post sequel SW lore, but in the EU, they pushed the idea that Palpatine was preparing the Galaxy for the arrival of the Vuuzhan Vong(is that the spelling?). So he was doing the right thing the worst way.

That's no way of speaking about the God Emperor

@@iantha999 It depends, whether you believe the ends justify the means or not. I think anyone who behaves Leto II did is a monster, regardless of what the outcome is. Being the cause for misery, suffering, and death on a galactic scale, then saying "but muh reasons" is EXACTLY what you'd expect a villain to proclaim.

Just as he held back the Emperor and Irulan for this movie, he held back the Guild navigator for the next one. Smart choice IMHO.

I’m pretty sure the people with orange masks on Caladan in the first movie were navigators, maybe not full fledged.

i think paul is using his prescience to read into the minds of people... he looks at a possible future where he has a conversation with those people to get information about them, even though that potential future never happens... same as his convos with jamis in the first movie

yeah, it was really sad to see Stilgar's transformation...

The water they keep from the dead one day they'll use that water put it back into arrakis n terraform the planet. Paul starts the terror forming process n by the 3rd novel children of dune people drown from floods n by book 4 artakis is a paradise planet again so Paul does start it but it will be devasting later on.

Agreed, stilgar is probably one of the best fighters in the universe. A badass in every sense of the word, he was an almost a fatherly figure for Paul, but fate turned him into a fanatic groveling at Paul’s feet.

@@travisgray8376 yeah exactly he was the chosen one… but was the chosen one the hero?

The prophecy is real in that the Bene Gesserit engineered every aspect of it. It's only real by their actions.

Kwisatch Haderach and Lisan Al Gaib are two different things. They aren’t variants

i was LOCKED tf in

worms get tired after long enough distances to the point that they just stop and i have no idea how they get stuff on the worm without just throwing it on

lol i noticed that too XD

Not in the books no

What does your comment have to do with anything

@@ssplif5415 nothing just like yours wink

Tik tok attention span all across the board. Can’t go 10 seconds without saying something cringe or making a joke out of the movie

Tbf Stilgar’s character is supposed to be comedic and Javier has rlly good comedic timing

@@nikhily2993 Yeah, but it makes up about 2% of the movie.

@@PhattyBolger Because its funny? Try to open your mind a little, watching a movie while being 100% tense is rtarded. A character blindly shouting lisan al-gaib every time he does something as basic as drinking water is for sure a comedy relief, no need to feel pressured about that.

@@brehh1337 No one said being 100% tense. Stilgar's character is tragic, not comedic. Dude went from being a steady, confident, wise leader to a glassy-eyed religious fanatic. The books and movies both are all tragedies, not hero tales.

Yep, and the "You young pup!" line when Gurney first sees Paul is a direct quote.

@@MongooseTales And the next thing Gurney wanted to do is to kill Jessica

paul isn’t a villain

Not sure he explicitly stated it would be the last one, although it probably will be. Still it would be interesting some continuation of the series

He never said it’s the last one he wants to make

@@WitcherSigns2023 he did say it in an interview, i can't remember which off the top of my head, but i remember him saying he wants to move on to other things

@@jimtams no he did not. he said he will make dune messiah and then see how he feels after that

@@WitcherSigns2023yeah the only 2 he understandably has interest in would be messiah and children because… well yeah we all know why after that one google search to see if a new hope was a rip off 😬 it wasn’t and his kid is not Luke

yeah they missed a huge opportunity considering WB is cutting out most of the picture (IMAX ratio) for the home release

It’s both… especially since Frank has Paul and then Leto II obtain near perfect prescience… it’s not so much that it’s fake, it’s that the “real” is attributed to the divine, while in fact, it’s man that becomes so advanced that through evolution and mathematical analysis, the spice and the water of life(and in Leto II ‘s case, fusing with the worms themselves) they are able to see outcomes and chose the right one for themselves… the fake part is that the Bene Gesserit, Paul, Jessica and eventually Alia Atreides, make the Fremen believe that it’s their God that has set up the very real power the Bene Gesserit had cultivated over centuries of genetic and scientific practice and evolution. Meanwhile the Bene Gesserit make their own created prophecy real… because remember the Kwisatz Haderach was always meant to be the messiah of many worlds, including on Arrakis, through the religion spread for centuries, by the wild Reverend Mothers-- and also it’s a type of prophecy/scientific theory, which the Bene Gesserit believe in, and do everything to bring it about. Frank Herbert’s other argument in the books is that there IS truth to all of these religions, practices, beliefs and prophecies-- BUT despite there being truth, that single or few facets of truth, does not make the general belief, and dogma truth, nor true enough to warrant such mindless adherence, that causes rationally thinking ppl to dismiss all doubt, and to throw themselves fully into any belief system that has such holes of doubt; especially, the biggest red flag to believing in anything in such a devote way , is whenever there is a sole Messianic/charismatic figure at the heart of it.

There were things outside of the bene gesserit control that happened to validate the prophecy though. Which makes it a gray area. Did a Reverend mother have a vision of the things Paul did in the future and add it, therefore Paul is fulfilling the prophecy because he's why it was written that way in the first place? Is it all luck? There are ways to invalidate it like a conspiracy but also odd coincidences. In the end it doesn't matter if it was real, Paul and his mother made it "real".