The Crazy Guns of the Winchester-Bannerman Pump Action Lawsuit

Рет қаралды 288,914

Күн бұрын

/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/Fo...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
Today I'm at the Cody Firearms Museum, taking a look at two of the guns that were used in the court case between Francis Bannerman and the Winchester company - a prototype Magot pump-action rifle and a Winchester-made example of a Krutzsch patent pump-action rifle.
The case came to be because Bannerman was the owner of the first US patent on a pump-action shotgun, which he acquired when Sylvester Roper went bankrupt - the patent had been originally filed by Christopher Spencer (of Spencer rifle fame). Winchester made a big splash in the market when they introduced their Model 1893 pump shotgun, and Bannerman took them to court for patent infringement in 1894.
Winchester decided to defend themselves by proving the patent was invalid, because the pump action machismo had already been invented when the patent was filed. They sent a lawyer to Europe to find some pump action design patents that would predate Spencer's, and they came up with four! One was a very strange bullpup rifle, which I have a separate video on ( • Curtis 1866: The First... ). Two others were by the Frenchman M.M. Magot (which Winchester purchased a prototype example of) and William Krutzsch. Failing to find an extant example of Krutzsch's gun, the Winchester tool room built one themselves. These examples were sufficient to win the case for Winchester in 1897. They proceeded to release their improved model 1897 pump shotgun, which would prove exceptionally successful and popular.
That said, the Magot and Krutzsch guns we are looking at today are exceptionally impractical - I am not even sure how the Magot is supposed to work. But practicality is not required for a patent.
For a much more detailed account of this story, check out the multi-part article by Seth Newman at Surplussed.com:
surplused.com/index.php/2020/...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740

Пікірлер: 654

@aidanfarnan4683 3 жыл бұрын

Patent infringement cases today: *legalese, dry, boring, probably indicative results.* Patent infringement cases in the 1890's: "Not only are you wrong, but we built a bunch of weird-ass guns to prove just how wrong you are, sir."

@OldDanTucker 3 жыл бұрын

Certainly a different time

@DB-pr4rc 3 жыл бұрын

I gotta say, it's not a very persuasive argument. Winchester had to make a significant and almost comical effort to find and secure examples of these early pump actions, and so the assumption is that Bannerman did the same to "steal" the idea. Meanwhile, Winchester...simply had to go and buy a Bannerman anywhere in the US. So Bannerman seems far less likely to have stolen from Europeans, while Winchester is almost certainly stealing from Bannerman.

@aidanfarnan4683 3 жыл бұрын

@@DB-pr4rc It's not the assumption that Bannerman did the same research in Europe to "steal" the idea. Winchester never needed to prove anyone stole an idea knowingly: it's the fact that under US law you may not patent any idea or thing that is "Prior art". Bannerman had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that no other person had *ever* made a functional pump action shotgun in order to patent the idea of a pump-gun: any evidence Winchester provided to the contrary, no matter how comical, was proof of "prior art". It's not a game of "Who stole from who" it's a game of "If *anyone* in Europe, or anywhere else, ever pulled of a working design that's significantly similar, before Silvester Roper, then no one can patent the same "art" in the US, and so Bannerman can't have a monopoly, and it's open season for Winchester and *All* others to use this pre-existing design." Bannerman unwittingly paid another man for his patent for a thing that, legally, could not be patented because it was old tech. Winchester just needed to point this out. It's why Edison went very quiet about the rights to the patent for the lightbulb in the US: an Englishman called Joseph Swan pointed out that he had been making them first, but thought the idea too simple and obvious to bother patenting for several years until after Edison started making them, and he politely pointed out to Edison if he, Swan, ever told the US patent office this, Edison would lose his monopoly despite his patients. So, after some suing of each other Edison, bought him off to stay silent, the two merged their electric companies, and "EdiSwan Bulbs: lighting the empire *and* the republic" became a brand. Patent law in the Gilded Age is wild. The fact Ian has more than one video on "we made this weird gun to prove a point in court" is the gift that keeps on giving: look at this Maxim vs the Colt-Browing potato-digger lawsuit video. It's so neat.

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

@@DB-pr4rc Bannerman was *claiming that the patent covered the idea of using a pump action to cycle the bolt.* With patents, you need to cite the prior art, as a matter of "inspired by this and that, I had the following idea." The European patents showed that someone else had had the idea first. The Spencer/Bannerman patent didn't cite any of those European patents, so it was invalid on it's face.

@michaelmay5453 3 жыл бұрын

I like that, this man speaks of the truth.

@Jackedhobbit 3 жыл бұрын

“If the museum staff weren’t watching” this is why Ian is the people’s historian.

@anotheruser676 3 жыл бұрын

that's why they're always watching.

@drunkenhobo64 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, if the museum staff weren't watching him carefully the whole time, he'd walk out like a cartoon and empty out his pockets at home with the entire museum collection falling out

@irvinmarsh4745 3 жыл бұрын

@@drunkenhobo64 They hire has an armed guard for French section when Ian visits

@randomnobodovsky3692 3 жыл бұрын

@@irvinmarsh4745 I had a series of strange mental images about what this hypothetical armed guard could be armed with.

@sawyerawr5783 3 жыл бұрын

@@randomnobodovsky3692 let's assume that whatever it is it has Rosalie on the muzzle.

@SangTheCryptek 3 жыл бұрын

Ian has trouble figuring out how it works, and this man has seen the inside of a G-11

@Kesssuli 3 жыл бұрын

Kraut space magic vs Cowboy dirt sorcery.

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

When Ian opened up the G11, I dropped an F-bomb. When a Swiss watch maker gets hired at HK...

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

It is indeed a marvel. When we stripped one we had the user handbook open and, I kid you not, once you get to a certain point there is a page with a red stop sign that says go no further unless you're a trained armourer. You can see the page from the manual in our G11 dissaembly video. The Magot, however, is next level haha

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRealColBosch thank you!! High praise indeed. A real honour to play with a real G11!

@Nightdare 3 жыл бұрын

@@Kesssuli Indian Peyote

@enricopaolocoronado2511 3 жыл бұрын

These guns look like something you'd see special forces soldiers in any steampunk settings would use.

@GundamReviver 3 жыл бұрын

It would fit right in with the vinci faction in the old game rise of legends, yep!

@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 3 жыл бұрын

Have you played Iron Harvest, and possibly played the US faction...

@TheStygian 3 жыл бұрын

@@GundamReviver Rise of Legends! Absolutely underrated classic! Still have my copy perma installed lol

@vulkanlives9776 3 жыл бұрын

Facts

@MrMolotov888 3 жыл бұрын

"...And the museum staff weren't watching...", whispers Ian, in fear

@chrismiddleton398 3 жыл бұрын

Surely you jest. I mean, I think you do. Ian has fine museum rapport and more than enough old gun respect and concern of his own.

@VivifyGamer 3 жыл бұрын

Where does he say that

@hurricane567 3 жыл бұрын

It's a building full of guns in a state full of abandoned mines. I'd watch my step, too!

@kyleno4mk27 3 жыл бұрын

By "the staff" he means Ashley Heblinsky; I'd be afraid too...

@kyleno4mk27 3 жыл бұрын

@Ryan Powell dude...

@cmkosemen 3 жыл бұрын

Wild Wild West called, they want their props back...

@Anino_Makata 3 жыл бұрын

Lol, yeah. These guns look like they'd come out of Loveless' armory or something.

@datasailor8132 3 жыл бұрын

Steampunk

@YourGrandMomy 3 жыл бұрын

LOL

@Arbiter099 3 жыл бұрын

And, because of the lawsuit, Winchester built a giant mechanical spider...

@sawyerawr5783 3 жыл бұрын

@@Arbiter099 and used it to burn down Bannerman's castle

@Matt-xc6sp 3 жыл бұрын

I already wish every day was story time at the Cody firearms museum

@TheLoxxxton 3 жыл бұрын

I do love story time with Iain

@codyfirearmsmuseum6027 3 жыл бұрын

Us too friend

@tokensupreme684 3 жыл бұрын

If Ian is in drag Nickelodeon will definitely make it a show🤡

@floridasoldat 3 жыл бұрын

Same lol

@kanghyunyoo6690 3 жыл бұрын

me too

@craigharness3156 3 жыл бұрын

Some guy at Winchester is spite engineering this to win an infringement battle

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

Did you see the Colt 1895 MG patent lawsuit gun Ian reviewed?

@sawyerawr5783 3 жыл бұрын

@@ScottKenny1978 excuse me WHAT

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

@@sawyerawr5783 you know the Colt m1895 "potato digger" MG? Well, Maxim was trying to say that his patent for a gas operated machine gun included the gas port in the barrel and sued. So Colt made a version of the Potato Digger that ran off of muzzle blast, but otherwise used all the same working bits. Ian did a video on it. Edit: video for you. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d55lhpumnLKYmmw.html

@fredwupkensoppel8949 2 жыл бұрын

I can imagine the guys tinkering, fueled by coffeine and pure hatred, muttering to themselves "Oh you think you invented that? The fuck you did!"

@randymagnum143 5 ай бұрын

The toolrom machinists were like "just pay the God damn royalty"

@none3763 3 жыл бұрын

One of the criteria for granting a patent is that someone with expertise in the field can take the patent application and produce a working example without further explanation. Clearly the Krutzsch patent was extremely well executed.

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

While I agree that the patent was well executed, I imagine that Winchester had to give the tool room a case of booze for the headache...

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

The lesson here: do your due diligence. Bannerman would have been far more successful in collaborating with Winchester, instead of tackling them.

@gregdaweson4657 3 жыл бұрын

Lawn Gnome

@Misericorde9 3 жыл бұрын

Bannerman’s ‘sue EVERYONE’ approach smells of an attempt at lawfare. If that was what he was indeed going for, it was a poor choice given the primary target.

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

@@gregdaweson4657 😁

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

@@Misericorde9 not an uncommon approach, back then. Ass-kickings like Bannerman received have taught later litigators (see you later, litigator..?) to be more selective.

@jameshealy4594 3 жыл бұрын

@@lairdcummings9092 It's totally different now, the fashion is to abuse laws disney muscled into existence, buy rights to an old song you have no connection to, then sue every second songwriter you can find claiming that their three similar notes constitute breach of copyright. Oh wait...

@robertgoyette5863 3 жыл бұрын

'until winchester introduces this guy' *laughs in john browning

@russquarles1071 3 жыл бұрын

HI middle name is Moses for a reason

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

Don't worry I'm working on the Magot at the moment, have just translated the original French patent. It is as complex as Ian suggests!

@user-ii5im7zm2t 3 жыл бұрын

While you're at it, please collaborate with Winchester or Uberti to have a few thousand reproductions of the Magot rifle manufactured. I'll buy the first hundred or so.

@eurghunner 3 жыл бұрын

if you need any help with translating french stuff I could try to take a look at it

@vulkanlives9776 3 жыл бұрын

Best of luck to ya! Hope you don't have to spend too much money for it.

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

@@vulkanlives9776 Not too much thankfully! It'll be worth it for the article and video - unlocking the Magot's secrets haha!

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

@@user-ii5im7zm2t haha I'd definitely be in line to buy a couple too

@chadsutton1787 3 жыл бұрын

"Sproing into a thousand pieces". Merchandise needed.

@donjones4719 3 жыл бұрын

When I was a kid there was a game that consisted of a spring-loaded frame compressing inward on a couple of dozen round pieces of different sizes (and shapes?). The challenge was to remove a piece at a time until it went sproing, compressing in and scattering the remaining pieces. Small kids loved the "destructiveness."

@sawyerawr5783 3 жыл бұрын

@@donjones4719 small kids? I want that NOW and I'm nearly 30!

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

Yep, I would totally buy that on a shirt!

@grimlock1471 3 жыл бұрын

@@sawyerawr5783 It's still on Amazon.

@AndrewAMartin 3 жыл бұрын

@@donjones4719 We had that game, and the idea IIRC was to put the pieces IN before it popped. And yes, all of the pieces had a unique shape. I'm thinking it was called "Concentration" -- I can see the thing in my mind, lots of yellow and orange plastic... I think my parents might still have it even (unless they cleared out the games & toys that the grandkids are too old for now).

@fancyultrafresh3264 3 жыл бұрын

When you get sued for patent infringement so you make a set of guns with ALL the patents.

@talscorner3696 3 жыл бұрын

When "I own a pump action shotgun" takes a whole new meaning...

@701duran 3 жыл бұрын

“If the museum staff weren’t watching” that's why Ian seems more serious/professional here lol

@marzcapone9939 3 жыл бұрын

Ah, that's what it looks like when your gun is inside out.

@anthonyhayes1267 3 жыл бұрын

But the rifle is inside out... And it exploded

@diestormlie 3 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't be surprised if the ornate pump handle was just... One they had lying around.

@andersjjensen 3 жыл бұрын

Or they just told the wood working guy "If we're going to work night and day until this weird clockwork pump rifle thingie works, then you're going to work night and day on the stock and pump handle. Fair is fair. We all get to go home at the same time" and he just sighed and went "so checkered, lacquered, horned, customized sweeps, finest knot free wood I can find in a week and what ever else I can come up with to keep myself occupied?"

@GunFunZS 3 жыл бұрын

Probably they just had a craftsman who is enjoying the novelty of the project.

@Ben_not_10 3 жыл бұрын

I honestly would’ve paid to have been in the courtroom that day when Winchesters lawyers brought in those prototypes. The look on Bannerman’s face must’ve been priceless.

@TheHacknor 3 жыл бұрын

Just imagine the Attorney pumping away not breaking eye contact

@AM-hf9kk 3 жыл бұрын

With the stories we've heard of Bannerman, I would be surprised if he DIDN'T sell tickets.

@thefez-cat 3 жыл бұрын

@@AM-hf9kk Yeah, Bannerman probably found SOME way to turn this loss into a side-hustle.

@Khrrck 3 жыл бұрын

They were probably pretty surprises - but US trials generally don't allow for "surprise evidence" as far as I know, so they likely saw them for the first time before they actually reached the courtroom.

@Ben_not_10 3 жыл бұрын

@@Khrrck 🧐. True but Bannerman wouldn’t have had an inclining of an idea what they were until the Winchester attorneys entered them as evidence and even then the full reason and explanation as to why they were evidence wouldn’t have come up until after the defense had begun their rebuttal.

@666Blaine 3 жыл бұрын

Look like someone was one or two gear-teeth off when they put that Krutzsch rifle back together.

@danbell3827 3 жыл бұрын

My guess is, someone from the museum, or a previous owner, intentionally put it together that way to show off the internal parts. They have no intention of firing it, so they set it up as a display.

@raccountforus Ай бұрын

Yeah I think they purposely did that so it wouldn't fire

@shukterhousejive 3 жыл бұрын

We all laughed when we saw the inside of the G11, how naïve we were ...

@ironfelixfromkuban2580 3 жыл бұрын

Actually, G11 is the Lorenzoni system from 17th century + caseless cartridge A. Nobel 1890 patent + automatics. Krutzsch: enter to the chat Kalashnikov: leave from the chat Adeptus Mechanicus: enter to the chat Church of the Broken God: enter to the chat Da'at yichud: enter to the chat

@Rinasoir 3 жыл бұрын

Slowly trying to convince my group of friends to go to Yellowstone purely so I have an excuse to escape off to the Cody Firearm Museum

@patrickseaman 3 жыл бұрын

As someone who has gone through many crash-development programs, I have to wonder how much time Winchester's shop had to put this together. "Here you go, Bob, here is a sketchy patent in another language. We need your team to build a completely functional copy (or two/three) in X days. Oh, and make the slide handle pretty. I'm sure you didn't have any plans for the next Y weekends, right?"

@thefez-cat 3 жыл бұрын

I suppose it's possible that prettified piece could have been a prototype part for the 1897, or a custom one-off one of the workshop guys made for an 1893. Or else that's how the patent-holder drew it, and they were gonna follow that patent to the letter.

@adambielen8996 3 жыл бұрын

Well the wood part were probably done by a carpenter who would have had a bunch of time to screw about while the gunsmiths were performing an act of god getting the guns to work.

@tehwin89 3 жыл бұрын

The Krutzsch is absolutely awesome, thats a neat action that would be really cool to see in action, too bad we don't have any of those old winchester tool room guys to whip up another one

@Goudafortuna 2 жыл бұрын

@@kenbrown2808 for real, if a gunsmith got his hands on it for a day i’d bet they’d have enough info to make a copy (of the second gun shown in the vid not the spaghetti one)

@JenniferinIllinois 3 жыл бұрын

Ian's got the gloves on. Story time!!! Swiss firearms engineers: boy that's complicated. 🤣🤣🤣

@hoilst265 3 жыл бұрын

"Maggot & Crutch". Why does this sound like a firearms company from a 90s Nickelodeon cartoon?

@acomingextinction 3 жыл бұрын

When Ian starts a video with "Our story begins in 1882..." I am immediately hooked.

@fluiypj 3 жыл бұрын

Ian, blink twice in the next video if they’re holding you hostage

@ZombieWilfred 3 жыл бұрын

Looking at the first guntraption cycling, it looks like the extractor might also pull the new cartridge out of the magazine tube.

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

"Guntraption" Brilliant.

@fukumarkzuckerburg 3 жыл бұрын

looking at the divot on the dust cover, it seems as if the pump pushes the cartridge back onto the extractor on the cover, the extractor forces the cover up and shoves the shell out, and the mechanism on the trigger looks as if it interplays somehow with the magazine

@fukumarkzuckerburg 3 жыл бұрын

update ; talked to a few friends, sent a few emails, and apparently the mechanism is overly complex, but the normal operation would be that the follower is removed from the magazine, the magazine is loaded with proprietary shells with a slot cut into side of the shell, when loaded, you then compress the follower and insert it behind the shells, closing the buttstock. from there, each trigger pull somehow presents a shell from the magazine, which is picked up by the rod attached to the pump handle, and it slides into battery. you then release the trigger, and pull it again, firing it and presenting another shell. the expansion of the brass is supposed to grip the rod tight enough to allow for extraction, and the spring on the dust cover is supposed to remove the shell from the rod and push it out the top, where it should fall harmlessly to the left or right. im getting this from a friend who collects old manuals and he supposedly talked to another collector of those same manuals. take all of this with a _huge_ grain of salt cause its third hand, but i felt it worth posting because it fits the mechanisms we were shown.

@xanderlee51 3 жыл бұрын

It's so cool to see firearm history on display like this.

@MarkDavidKnight 3 жыл бұрын

Ian starts moving rifle parts around, museum staff: *heavy breathing*

@andycraddock7677 3 жыл бұрын

You know you have worldwide street-cred. when you can go into one of the world’s best firearm museums, they pull a couple of ultra-rare, one-of-a-kind, obscure rifles off display, then tell ya, “Let us know when you’re done with them Ian” and you proceeded to film today’s presentation. Well done, Sir. Fascinating.

@WhiteHelljumper 3 жыл бұрын

Interesting that Winchester was able to win by showing these existed in Europe. Wonder how successful someone would have been doing something similar for that patent for the bore-through cylinder since that design was already in use in Europe for pinfire cartridges.

@RiderOftheNorth1968 3 жыл бұрын

Intresting thought.... And IF it WAS done, how would the weapon development been different.....Hmmmm, thought provoking.

@mmercier0921 3 жыл бұрын

It is telling Winchester couldn't find or buy an example of a functional gun. Probably because no one was dumb enough to actually try to make one... even a prototype.

@Lukewci 3 жыл бұрын

@@mmercier0921 Ian said one of the paterns were in production in France. The one museum show next to those but he did not get it

@jeffm68 3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. It seems a bit sketchy from a strict legal perspective. It does, however, uphold the grand old American tradition of Big Corporations abusing their gargantuan resources to stretch the spirit of the law right up to the breaking point. (See also: Microsoft.)

@banzaibailey5891 3 жыл бұрын

I would also like to research how foreign patents won Wnchester an infringement case in America. Pretty sure they're separate for a reason. Fishy......

@peteranderson037 3 жыл бұрын

So Francis Bannerman pulled a Metallica and went after everybody.

@bskorupk 3 жыл бұрын

Our Sponsor for today is the Law Firm of Dewey, Cheatem & Howe!

@samiam619 3 жыл бұрын

My all time favorite Law Firm.

@mortisCZ 2 жыл бұрын

My friend, it took a second before my brain clicked! :-D

@Phoolery 3 жыл бұрын

That foregrip is oddly prophetic... not far from some modern designs.

@trekker105 3 жыл бұрын

One is absolutely the grip from The Division that buffs reload speed and the other one is absolutely the Bruiser Grip from Cold War

@proonguice8386 3 жыл бұрын

Ian is terrified to take apart a one of a kind piece of history; meanwhile I break into a cold sweat when fumbling around with ANY hammer or trigger assembly and praying to 3 or 4 deities simultaneously that a spring doesn’t go sailing across my office or garage 🤞🤞

@zacharyrollick6169 10 ай бұрын

That's why I do gun work in a small bathroom.

@renrifle 3 жыл бұрын

I am trying to imagine a pump action lawsuit, it looks like a violent event but also slightly erotic.

@CurtHowland 3 жыл бұрын

That lawsuit was fought in the 1890s, so we wouldn't have to fight it today. Personally, I think patent is a net loss in terms of innovation over time.

@LedosKell 3 жыл бұрын

It's part 2 to the shotgun wedding. The final installment in the trilogy is the slam fire divorce.

@YouTubeSaysThereCantBeTwoRyans 3 жыл бұрын

Nobody is going to mention the movie "hobo with a shotgun"?

@donjones4719 3 жыл бұрын

Laws should be clear, but men in black robes interpret them in 50 shades of grey.

@MorbidEel 3 жыл бұрын

@@legtendgav556 patents seem to put too much emphasis on who had an idea first and rather than who actually turns the idea into reality

@eizol568 3 жыл бұрын

“That’s my patent you Magot!”

@tommyblackwell3760 3 жыл бұрын

Well played, sir!

@OldDanTucker 3 жыл бұрын

My homie Niko Bellic 💯

@LeewardStudios 3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if the Winchester machinists looked at those two weapons and took a lesson or two away. Even a poor design is a result. Sometimes just seeing a different perspective on the same problem or system can spark innovation. I once had instructor turn on a light in my head with the quote “this is my way, what is your way? THE way does not exist.”

@randomidiot8142 3 жыл бұрын

I've come across eureka moments for past unrelated projects while working out problems for the current project. There's always something to learn, just have to be flexible and abstract enough to be able to see that solution apply elsewhere.

@partyrobbins4690 3 жыл бұрын

The Magot looks like a prop for some scifi steam punk movie.

@Dovoski 3 жыл бұрын

Kel-Tec: Write that down, write that down!

@simdar42 3 жыл бұрын

At 6:39 “I don’t know what all this is…” It seems to me this is that time machine you referenced earlier!

@joepritchard7199 3 жыл бұрын

the lovechild of a trumpet and a shotgun

@Anino_Makata 3 жыл бұрын

More like trombone and shotgun.

@harbl99 3 жыл бұрын

Tactical Trombones of the Gilded Age.

@redstar96gr57 3 жыл бұрын

I imagine these machnists had some interesting weeks figuring out these schematics to build prototypes lul

@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 3 жыл бұрын

They did have that new fangled Coca Cola to power them through.

@omartorres5688 3 жыл бұрын

@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 Imagine if Mountain Dew would have been invited then theyd be up all night

@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 3 жыл бұрын

@@omartorres5688 Heh... Coke then had actual cocaine in it.

@omartorres5688 3 жыл бұрын

@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 Oh yeah that is right

@stevenbaker8184 3 жыл бұрын

@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 not Cocaine in as much but coca extract. Far less refined, and you didnt get Rick James nose from it.

@treintaceroseis4763 3 жыл бұрын

It would have been interesting to see how they worked with dummy cartridges.

@TheArmourersBench 3 жыл бұрын

No way your get either to cycle at the moment to be honest.

@jetsonIFY 3 жыл бұрын

Very interesting! I just spent the week figuring out why a Mosbergh 500 bolt was sticking closed, finally figured that out ,then just watched this video! Oh my word. I could fiddle with that action for months LOL. On a side note Bannermans island was on the East side of the Hudson river from Cornwall NY where I grew up. We could spend the whole day exploring the castle and grounds. Some areas were covered in old helmets 6' deep. Thousands of bayonets' and tons of military accoutrements. A few years later there was a fire that gutted the castle. My father gave me an old rifle from the basement of a house in Newburgh NY, also within sight of the island. A trapdoor rifle in 50/70. As new from when it was converted from the musket. I was in my teens by then and ordered brass from Dixie Gun Works. Had to sell it when I got married. My 1921 Thompson gun turned into a new refrigerator. I wish I was young again!!!!!!LOL

@BeyondEcstasy 4 ай бұрын

The ruins of Bannerman castle still sits on an island on the Hudson and can be seen by riders on the Metro North. Thanks Ian for filling in on the background of a ruin I have passed many times.

@77gravity 3 жыл бұрын

"I wasn't able to get it out of the display case" - Gun Jesus needs to collaborate with the Lock Picking Lawyer.

@rockarola55 3 жыл бұрын

I've seen LPL comment under at least one Forgotten Weapons video. It's not really surprising, as guns are intricate mechanisms, often designed with some interesting flaws and they usually contain great engineering. The overlap between Ian and LPL is pretty large, as is the overlap in audience :)

@SlimRhyno 3 жыл бұрын

Even that double-curved pump handle is more than I could ever come up with (let alone make). The mechanical skill and intelligence that went in to actually making these is on another level. Stunning stuff. And thank you, Ian, for bringing it to us!

@michaelabratzel6371 3 жыл бұрын

Ian: "look at this gorgeous Viper STEN Conversion and the Prussian Bittner 1896!" The internet: "oh my gosh... The most steampunky guns eva! " Ian: ".. Wait for it..."

@jan-hendrikbussmann4644 3 жыл бұрын

They built guns from patent drawings to prove a point? Amazing story. Imaging being given such a task. A patent drawing is so far from actual manufacturing plans. That prototyping shop must have had very skilled workers.

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

Imagine that bullet point on your resume. "Transformed a patent drawing into a functional firearm for a court case in X weeks." Interviewer: 🤯 you're hired!!!

@jan-hendrikbussmann4644 3 жыл бұрын

@@ScottKenny1978 Today, the could make millions in building the coolest steampunk gear imaginable.

@ScottKenny1978 3 жыл бұрын

@@jan-hendrikbussmann4644 I know I want one of those guns...

@carlbrown9082 3 жыл бұрын

I'm so envious of your access to all these interesting historical firearms. Keep the great videos coming.

@collinmclaren6608 3 жыл бұрын

I know we've said this about a lot of guns, but that Krutzsch straight up looks like a prop blaster rifle from star wars

@albertmeier2425 3 жыл бұрын

I had the pleasure of visiting the Cody Firearms museum last month. 1) My goodness was it neat and amazing. 2) The staff was awesome, interested in their exhibits and glad to share what they knew. And 3) Found myself wishing I had a portable Ian with so I could learn more and better appreciate what I was seeing. A good teacher makes anything interesting and you are a great one Ian!

@Kremit_the_Forg 3 жыл бұрын

The Magot looks like it only works if you bathed it long enough in several different oils while chanting zeros and ones...

@jeffm68 3 жыл бұрын

Indeed. Its Machine Spirit has strayed far from the Emperor's Light and must be placated.

@Vares65 3 жыл бұрын

Love the deep dive into specific guns and how they work, but these history videos are equally awesome. Thanks for the interesting story/education!

@matthewanderson9754 3 жыл бұрын

That was one of my favorites I've ever seen! Love the whole background story to it all!!

@johnsweeney4257 3 жыл бұрын

Makes me want to sneak into the museum and put that rifle together properly.

@sadwingsraging3044 3 жыл бұрын

Damn skippy! It is just timed wrong. Suck, squish, bang, pull.

@kmoecub 3 жыл бұрын

shotgun.

@johnsweeney4257 3 жыл бұрын

@@kmoecub Yup...

@joshuawade8319 3 жыл бұрын

Now there is a pair of Rube Goldberg contraptions if I've ever seen one.

@masondent9453 3 жыл бұрын

Very cool to hear about Bannerman, I live up the river from the ruins of the castle.

@Face2theScr33n 3 жыл бұрын

This is a great example of truly "Forgotten Weapons"!

@victorfonseca1692 3 жыл бұрын

Cant wait for your bannerman spencer video! I have several and am somewhat obsessed with them...

@theislandboy8 3 жыл бұрын

thanks for all your work man!

@deadredherring 3 жыл бұрын

Really hope we'll get a closer look at both of these at some point!

@Writhe_n_Shine 3 жыл бұрын

This vid was especially fun. Thanks for all the fantastic content.

@actuallyharuto2382 3 жыл бұрын

Man i fucking wish guns look like this now those looks so cool just like the mauser 1911

@sparky6855 3 жыл бұрын

Ian should be allowed all the time in the world to understand these firearms!

@joelaugustin6407 3 жыл бұрын

I'm starting day two at Cody right now, all thanks to this video for reminding me to make a stop on my way home to the southeast. Thank you Ian.

@Mr_T_Badger 3 жыл бұрын

Those look like something the Mandalorian should be carrying.

@madwolf7033 5 ай бұрын

The resemblence between alof's system and that winchester produced replica is very much stunning

@loupiscanis9449 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you , Ian .

@Taintedgod771 3 жыл бұрын

Been to Bannerman, great hiking and climbing around that area.

@MillwalltheCat 3 жыл бұрын

Winchester to tool shop: 'Build one of these.' Tool shop: 'Won't that cost about the same as the annual GDP of Canada?' Winchester: 'Don't worry about it, Bannerman will be paying.'

@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 3 жыл бұрын

I was a Machinist Mate, not a Gunners Mate... but that Krutzsch breech reminds me of what I saw of the 3' 50 Dual Purpose workings of the guns on my first ship.

@flyingninja1234 3 жыл бұрын

Those guns are works of art.

@asdl805 3 жыл бұрын

I live right near bannermans castle, when I was little we used to go by it all the time when we would go boating in the Hudson with my grandparents. It’s funny I’ve never heard reference of it in anything aside from local knowledge and the normal tourist attraction

@jamesparker2413 3 жыл бұрын

Idk why but I literally love this video. The style, comedy, history and weaponry. The perfect Forgotten Weapons video to date.

@asterisk606 3 жыл бұрын

Extremely interesting hearing that first bit about Bannerman's Castle in the Hudson River! When I would go hiking in those mountains around the river I'd always see that island and building on there thinking it was super cool wondering about the history but never did much research into it. It surprised me to find out what it really was, and especially because this video was the reason I now know about it. I never would have expected that lol. Next time I go hiking and see that little island I'll now know the history about it and it'll make me think of this video.

@tristanburke3422 3 жыл бұрын

I live very close to Cornwall and hike Storm King Mountain a fair amount. Love seeing the remains of the castle that wound up EXPLODING. So much history in the Hudson Valley, I love it.

@OhioTravelswithKris 3 жыл бұрын

Morning Ian! Love your videos

@Snomadu 3 жыл бұрын

8:16 “At these interlocking Teeth.. ..gear”

@011CJ Жыл бұрын

I was about to go to sleep but I saw these guns and had to watch .thanks for the vids

@wirebrushofenlightenment1545 5 ай бұрын

That 1885 Roper looks just so modern - at least at first sight. 08:00 - they went to that much work shaping the slide handle because they found it required so much force to feed a cartridge, would be my guess.

@satanmitdengeilenbarthaaren 3 жыл бұрын

This content is the reason i love your channel! Thanks Ian! Much love from Germany.

@JuiceJive 3 жыл бұрын

I first saw the Bannerman's Island Arsenal castle on Andrew Camarata's channel. He's run jet skis up the Hudson and flown a drone around it a few times.

@markkeyser 3 жыл бұрын

The remnants of the Bannerman Castle still sit in the Hudson River. Impressive to see!

@Robban.D.Jonsson. 3 жыл бұрын

I need to see all of those disassembled. It's like the Graal of cool weird guns.

@kineticdeath 3 жыл бұрын

I sense a future deep dive into that crazy looking french pump action gun. And I'd be totally down for it, and will watch for sure if it does happen

@sparky6855 3 жыл бұрын

Those look so magnificently unique!

@Vanastar 3 жыл бұрын

Is anyone else fascinated by that Brittish patent picture we saw that looked like a very thin pump action rocket launcher?

@FernandoHernandez-jw4yy 2 жыл бұрын

This channel made me realise how mechanically fascinating guns actually are. Before that I just thought they're handy for self-defense and fun to shoot because they go BOOM.

@Sixcurses 3 жыл бұрын

@6.43 you can see the inside of that plate on the pumpbar that has a track in it, i suspect it operates that odd lever with a pin on the outside.

@keithallardice6139 3 жыл бұрын

"Story Time At The Cody Museum" should definitely become a themed event!! I would love that... Seriously though what interesting firearms and the backstory is fascinating! I would love to visit Cody and her wonderful Museum :-)

@johnkilcer 3 жыл бұрын

Makes you wonder why they haven't reassembled it correctly. Be cool to see it actually working properly

@ALIGwedew62 3 жыл бұрын

Steampunk lookin ass gun there

@anaphylastiks 3 жыл бұрын

Incredible. Imagine people that are new subscribers, what a journey they can take on this channel.

@michaeljpenney 3 жыл бұрын

"I'm a simple man... I see 'Forgotten Weapons', I click play." Come on Ian, lay it on me!

@l-boi3004 3 жыл бұрын

This was a fun ride down winchester and their history

@elijahsellers3727 2 жыл бұрын

I've got an original Winchester Model 1897 shotgun. Mine was built in 1912, and it's a takedown model.

@BrianRRenfro 3 жыл бұрын

What always amazes me about these one off guns is as someone who has only lived (as with most of us) in the mass produced world that they even exist in the first place. That people can take bare hunks of steel and turn out things that have perfect curves and intricate machining essential by hand turning dials on a lathe/mill. In production there are millions of dollars of machines each set up with jigs and patterns to make one little cut and radius. These are built with none of that. No CNC, just skill. So many modern one offs and prototypes are blocky, unfinished, and look like made from just minimal machining of off the shelf stock and components. It's just rare to see complete, fine machining, looks like ready to sell, prototypes anymore. Everything looks like a barrel off of this, a pistol grip off of that, and all bolted to angle iron from Home Depot.