Thank god he failed

Except cyborg... who was totally never a titan and never will be right guys? (Yes I'm still salty about this unwritten rule that cyborg cant be a titan anymore nearly 10 years later).

Nightwing's a$$ would have been a goner, if it weren't for DAT A$$!!

@@theboulder027 They're still having that?! Even after repeatedly showing that Cyborg has had a past with them (The Flash, Metal, Defiance etc all had flashbacks of the New Teen Titans era)

Dan didao was the name of a demon in Harley's little black book.

That brings me much joy I mean do any of us know who Will is lol!

Naaaah, jodeme que hicieron eso aca, jajaja. No podes!

That reminds me one night I was watching here in Argentina in cable tv a class Z horror movie where in subtitles mummy was translated as it was mommy... So every time they talk to the mummy they just talk as it was their mother...

@@CasuallyComics My Captain keeps telling me to fire at Will, but I’ve never seen him. Will’s a slippery one, quite wily.

That's amazing 😄

He is like the Spiderman marriage of the DC universe 👉👉

Cass has been doing well recently

Stephanie Brown fans: Tell me about it!

Tim drake fans : 😶

Dick Grayson fans: that's ruff buddy

Dick grayson: "just look at me they made me a spy and made me lose my memories and character in the last decade .... oh and they oversexualize my ass too"

Though my personal favourite take will always be Young Justice. He had an amazing arc across the series.

@@qwellen7521 Young Justice is a good series too. Looking forward to the next season

@@Sunstar808 unfortunately don’t live in the states, so I never got to see S3 :(

@@qwellen7521 Damn it’s really good & the characters have matured. If you’re able, I’d recommend purchasing it on iTunes (YJ Outsiders) or pick up the hard copy Blu-Ray.

Yeah for a long time I thought he was they only flash cause I saw that show when I was a kid 😂

This is awesome, why people are mad about it?

@@galio7741 it came seemingly out of left field, and totally subverts everything that was done to build the character. Look at "Heroes in Crisis" for instance.

@@bazzfromthebackground3696 I liked Heroes in Crisis.

@@galio7741 well, then there's nothing to talk about.

@@galio7741 You like the fact they turn a fan favorite hero into a villain?

I don't know why people still buy comics from these terrible companies or go see their terrible movies.

@@chihiromononoke9381 I don't know why did dc write far more better comics than marvel will ever do..

@@villain6100 😂😂😂... I'm mean sure. Being salty won't reduce the fact both companies do make quiet a lot of money and gud marvel comics like immortal Hulk, venom, thor, juggernaut series, the x men line of stories is actually pretty gud. I would say it's better u just read than picking sides.

I'm sure Kanye feel the same way

@@chihiromononoke9381 Of all the mediums, superhero comics is probably the one where quality varies most widely. Titles are constantly being handed between different creators with different artists, titles being relaunched characters being changed, and killed, and brought back again etc. etc. as different writers all try to put their own unique stamp on the characters. The short answer is: People still buy superhero comics because some of them are *awesome.* Comics have brought us some of the best stories ever told. But you have to wade through a massive sea of not-so-great to get there...

Which is really annoying, because all the "modern" defining Flash tropes were created during Wally's era, which at the time had lasted about as long as Barry's. Barry's sacrifice was one of those good one in comics (iconic, impactful, meaningful)... so DC decided to ruin it and ruin Wally too at the process, two for the price of 1!!!

@@louisvictor3473 I remember an issue (memory says issue #79, the end of the "Return of Barry Allen" story back in the 90s) where they dedicated an editorial to why they wouldn't bring Barry back, about how it made his sacrifice mean something. Then they did it anyway...

In the end, they didn't even do that with Nightwing. Remember, they tried to kill him too.

Wally's a better Flash than Barry to me. Barry's one of the comic characters that should have stayed dead along with Kraven the Hunter, Aunt May when she died of old age in the Spider-Man Death in the Family comic. None of that "Norman Osborn kidnapped the real May and an actress that looked like her was the one who died" retcon shit. Barry sacrificing himself to save the universe from the Anti Monitor was a good way for his character to go out.

Yeah hearing this inspires me to not care for future state Flash. Wally can never be a villain in my eyes. Sure give him the name Synapse (workshop the name) or something and have him and his family operate in a new city. Does Bludhaven have vacancies?

Problem with those legacy characters is kinda simple to summarize: uncreative marketers and managers being greedy. Manchildren "muh childhuud herus" hack writers and editors don't help either. Explaining that is a bit longer though. Let's put a lid on Wally's case for a bit. Those legacy characters aren't new characters, so compared to completely new characters, they lack that free marketing "who is this all new character" hype effect. Their brands are also not as popular (not just in comics but also outside) as their predecessors/older characters, so they lack that free marketing hype factor too. Of course, both of these factors have a synergetic effect when combined (hence future state and all the derivative new characters wearing their connection to older characters with pride; it is not double the hype, it 2 squared times the hype at least). So missing on both factors is comparatively even worse than it seems at first. Comics as a medium is kinda stagnant in social relevance and sales now, so forget about just building their brands further until they become as easy to market as the older ones, because that is a long term risk/investment (not gonna fancy up any quarters anytime soon), and also risk taking some popularity from the more popular brands, and that is a fucking big no no. Fucking them over, on the other hand, that has plenty of free marketing hype potential (specially if you emphasize their connection to the older and more recognizable brand somehow - it ain't just "Nightwing went bad", it is "Batman's first Robin went bad!" Wally is a special case. With his comics success and with the JL cartoon participation, he had finally managed to be the popular Flash. Problem is that outside of show and comic fans, the Flash was at best popular as "the Flash". Who was behind the mask, ehh, not so much (and even in the JL cartoon, we mostly see him in uniform). But just then he got unlucky that Wanker Johns and Didio came along with their childhood favs, threw him under a buss for Barry, then made efforts to push the Barry's Flash to higher relevance in and beyond comics (down to the CW show). But now there is a bit of brand power behind Barry Allen's Flash thanks to that, so DC is in that situation where they know public book fans buy only buy a comic book by tens of thousand, while merchandise reaches millions of people, so guess which Flash brand they gonna pump over the others.

I am beginning to think DC Comics has a problem with teen heroes period. They love the kid sidekicks but they have no idea what to do any of them once that plays out. They give all the backstory to the adult hero leaving the sidekick with no reason to exist on their own. For example Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the links between their respective worlds and the human one. So what does that make Aqualad and Donna Troy? DC never bothered to figure that out. And if a teen character somehow becomes more interesting than his mentor it all gets violently undone. Arsenal was a single dad with addiction issues and a super villainess for a baby mama. While Green Arrow was an aging loudmouth and deadbeat dad. Next thing you know Arsenal's daughter had been murdered and Arsenal was literally doing bumfights armed with only a dead cat. In retrospect, we all should have seen Heroes in Crisis coming. I figure Wally will periodically come back just so DC can trash him some more.... they can't help themselves.

@@ViccVegaa023 At least Wally had a decent amount of respect in the Williamson run.

Although Donna Troy had a pretty BADASS look as part of TBWL's Secret Six

To be fair, thought that describes practically every comics character

Given that it went over like a lead balloon, of course they did. That's just cleaning up their own mess.

Yes but see when Geoff Johns was a kid Barry Allen was already the flash

What that mins

They retconned that to be something reverse flash did

@@kevincrediblee6745 Almost as if they regretted that story line as soon as it was published.

Unexpected John Mulaney

"It was me barry I was the one who made DC comics frame wally for murder"

Future State was cobbled together out of the ashes that was 5G which was a Dan Dildo initiative

didio was just a scape goat for all the issues going on at dc most of the guys at the editorial level agreed with him but he was the one who got ousted

@@donb7519 That's because he brought in people who agreed with his Darker DC, then brought in Brian Michael "I hate canon" Bendis. DiDio did the same thing with Beast Machines, telling the writers to ignore not only the original Transformers cartoon but the Beast Wars series that came out just before it. That only came out recently so at the time it was Bob Skir (who was the showrunner who interacted with fans and tried to defend the ignorance while Marty Isenberg didn't say anything) who took flack from fans. There's a history of what DiDio did with DC.

@@ShadowWingTronix i mean lets be honest its not hard to stack the cards when so many comic pros agree with didios position on so many things like i said he's a scapegoat

@@donb7519 Back when the FireDiDio hashtag came out I wrote that it won't save DC because that's only part of the problem. However, he was in charge and did create the editorial mandates and a lot of the problems. Is he the only problem? I wish it were that easy. I won't miss him. I just need to see proof that whomever is taking over is going to get DC back on track, including undoing the damage done to Wally and his family before I can truly celebrate.

@Megan Todd See Dick run. Sorry, old reader joke from back in the day. It's not about whether he wanted to get out of Barry's shadow or not. After all, it was Barry who changed Wally's Kid Flash costume from a copy of his own costume to the classic Kid Flash yellow and red costume. Barry always wanted Wally to have his own identity and be his own person.

@Will N I feel a bit ashamed I forgot most of this despite having read Titans Rebirth.

Its hilarious how they erased the past (JSA) and the future (Titans/YJ/other sidekicks). Even though I liked the new52 Earth 2, they could've done something more with the JSA & Infinity Inc

Wally West should have pulled a Nightwing, ever since Barry Allen returned.

I'd argue Barry should have pulled a Jay Garrick. When most of the Flash mythos was done under Wally and most of the modern feats, its unfair for DC to have just given that back to Barry on a silver platter with a "anything Wally can do, Barry can do." Modern adaptions really rub it in, with Barry getting Wally's personality often because they know he's boring (minus the CW where he's still boring and instead gets Wally's history, discoveries, and feats). This is a different situation from Bruce and Batman where Bruce had an iconic personality and had do so much for Batman and the Batfamily (though I still say Dick should have taken over and I don't like how everything STILL revolves around Bruce). At this point DC just uses every other character to prop up the ones they want to promote. The rebirth Titans team is more interesting than the justice league? Gotta break them up. Enjoying supersons? Too bad, gotta age Jon up because I don't want to have to deal with him when writing Clark.

It's a sad day when you start becoming in recognizing comic politics and the tendencies of certain writers. Tom King is depressive, Didio hates legacy characters, Bendis has awkward dialogue etc.

@Will N that would be smart but I don’t think the issue is that there is two as much as it is Wally is so fleshed out while they haven’t done much to establish why we should care about Wallace

@Will N i think they should stay as separate characters since there just so different. Wallace just needs a new direction.

@@dark3stknight174 Plus, with the way they've treated Wally over the years, what's the point of expecting them to change for Wallace?

DC wants all their legacy characters to suffer or be erased. It's sad to see.

It's kinda sad cuz I actually like legacy characters

Testify, Amber! I've never heard my own sentiment against DCs recent editorial practices put more directly or eloquently!

And the sad irony is that many, if not most of the "original" versions they're being thrown aside for are legacy versions of golden age characters. Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Dan Garrett all were replaced and that's fine, but replace Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ted Kord? That's too far for Didio's ilk.

yeah look how dirty conner was done

@Will N No, Donna Troy should stay Troia and not be Wonder Woman at all.

They should just change Wally West’s superhero name from Flash to something else.

@@trevturp7687 or they could change barry's superhero name to something else

yeah and also they could've made conner superman but never did. Instead they made superman blue and red. And whenever he starts getting close to becoming superman dc just resets him. Conner deserves the mantel of superman.

@@ProjektTaku They can’t do that, because Barry Allen is the main flash.

even Wallys best mate got pretty much a kick in his rear. But surprisingly enough not from Didio, but from Johns. Remember when they turned Kyle Rayner into a new Paralaax after they brought back Hal and how much people got angry at that?

I think it is the standard comic book writer "not my X" problem, an attitude that legacy characters by their very nature can be incompatible with. Which is made worse with DC's reliance on grimdark stories/events and heroes-become-villains plots. Which itself is made even worse by DC writers/editors being completely inept at creating such stories.

DC just introduces too many to take the same mantles on. So while the League members are pretty much safe, we get 2 superboys, 2 wondergirls, 4 robins etc. The biggest issue fall on the Titans era (they grew out of their original mantles but can;t take over their mentors' roles). Then the Young Justice era also suffered (funnily the non-legacy characters just faded out of existence) So characters like Lilith, Empress, Secret, Argent, old Damage, etc couldn't exist outside of the Titans/YJ. Rebirth brought both teams back but couldn't even maintain them before bloating them with characters so they couldn't get proper development

@@BluemoonLacrymosa Legacy characters wouldn't be a problem if DC wasn't so determined to pretend that their timelines make sense. And it really is only pretending. DC writers and editorial choose what they want to acknowledge and ignore based on their own desires and the stories they want to tell. (Heaven help the characters that writers/editorial willfully wreck.) There is nothing except their own desires stopping them from ignoring legacy issues, and they selectively do that for some characters already.

@@BluemoonLacrymosa (What do you mean they’re original roles?)

It's fun to see heroes suffer.

@Shawn Kuhn For me it is.

I would read evil!Wally teams up with Parallax, just for the WTF. (& Wally is my fav Flash, & Hal is my fav GL) What happened to Parallax? I know he showed up with married Clark & ran away, then briefly showed up in the long-hairedHal GL run to have a talk about Coast City being rebuilt, but is he still lurking out there?

@Will N post-crisis acceptance was largely a generational thing. Younger fans generally had little problem with it but older fans tended to hate it. Age-wise, I was kind of in the middle of those groups, so I usually didn’t get into the heated debates... but I observed a few. There were apparently enough fans of the changes to make it a success though, because DC actually gained market share on Marvel for a while. And I might be mis-remembering, but I think there was a month or two around ‘86 where DC actually outsold Marvel for the first time in nearly 20 years. As to when things calmed down, it could be that things started to settle around BTAS because that’s just how long it took the older (angrier) fans to give up and fade away. In a way, the modern comic climate is very similar, with a lot of older fans getting angry at changes in the industry... the main difference being that there is not a large market of kid customers who are embracing the change.

@Will N I’m not sure that most people that were reading Crisis understood the goal of Crisis at the time. To be honest, I am not sure that I did either until we got pretty near the end of it. Most of the anger that I saw (that was not centered on the death of Barry and Supergirl) actually came after the dust settled and it became more obvious... and even more so after the publishing of the History of the DC Universe, which kind of sorted things out and set them in stone. I once saw a guy that was furious over the fact that the Legion of Super-Pets had basically been removed from DC’s reality due to the Crisis. I had never even heard of Beppo the Super-Monkey (much less the Legion of Super-Pets) until that day. While they didn’t mean anything to me, after the guy left, my LCS owner did stress to me that almost every character had their fans. That turned out to be an important lesson that I carried with me several years later when I opened a shop of my own. My own shop opened in ‘91. To the best of my recollection, the Crisis was never much of a topic in my shop. On rare occasions an older fan would bring it up but for the most part people were either “over it” or “only collecting Silver Age” by that point.

@Will N yeah, if there is one reoccurring theme in all of this, it’s that every attempt to “fix” continuity just ended up breaking some other part of it. That said, I have never been overly bothered by the continuity fixing events... in fact, I was mainly a Marvel reader when the original Crisis came out, and I was so impressed by it that I started reading more DCs (and that has remained consistent for 35 years). I am not a fan of the recent murderous incarnations of Wally though. That’s not really a continuity fix so much as it is just crapping on a character.

It looks to me like every comics writer who read Marvelman before becoming a professional wants to write their version of the "Kid sidekick goes bad and murders a bunch of people" storyline -- and never with the poetry or depth of Alan Moore's prose to back it up.

I have an epiphany, why don't we write new stores instead of rehashing Alan Moore?

He went through a lot with that in creative team. It was a good run.

I could not agree more with this

@Will N All williamson's retcon does it explain why wally framed everyone, not why or how he killed them. Also as far as Im aware they never told king to make wally the murderer, just that he had to use booster, harley and wally as prominent characters, every other writing decision made falls on his shoulders unless there is more unrevealed editorial meddling.

@Will N They always use Zoom, but I was thinking Abra Kadabra would have been perfect. He remembered his fights against Wally when he was the only Flash (way back in the 1990s) and he had the 64th century tech to mess with his powers and brainwash him into doing what he did. Still, at the end of the day, Wally wasn't handled well at all and it showed.

I had a similar thought, but with Barry not becoming a teenager. The entire concept of "The Speed Force" came about during Wally's run as The Flash (pun not intended) and it really would have worked to have Wally in a mentor role to Barry just trying to get him up to speed (pun intended) on how their powers work.

I thinks they never wanted him back to life and they said ok but your not going to like it. Wally is no official to evil to join the rouges. That should have been a seen have cold or a rouge say your scum to him in jail. Rouges always bust each other out of jail or a jam. Wally framed buster gold for a crime.

@@daraghokane4236 I agree it has a bit of a how do you like Wally now feel to it

@@fredcampbell4066 Rouges don't kill women and children the rouges should hunt wally down as a comic. Also in final crisis even when mind controlled by libra the villains were held responsible for what they did but wally isn't responsible its zooms fault.

They however tried to make Kyle a Villain. Remember him as Paralax? Yes, that happened. And fans weren't happy to tell the least.

They have never known what to do with Supergirl either. The only good treatment of Supergirl and a civilian career is the TV series!

But a villain is much more interesting, don't you think?

@@galio7741 No, I love Wally as a hero.

@@galio7741 no.

@@galio7741 A villainous version of a hero can work if they're done well. This new version of Wally isn't and is only being portrayed as evil to make Barry look better.

@@galio7741 Not if they completely contradict everything the Hero is and has done.

Funny thing is that the retcon only helps explain why wally hid and framed people, not why wally killed all those people, so the blood is still on his hands

@@megamonmon I would argue accidental manslaughter, since Wally only killed Roy and the others because he lost control of his powers. I feel like DC is trying to have their cake and eat too, Wally still feels guilty and reasonable for what happened at Sanctuary but by saying Thawne MADE him frame Booster and Harley, Wally's technically not a murderer as the decision to possibility turn himself in from the start was taken away. And considering that we saw Thawne influence him and Barry in Flash War before HiC, whose to say that Thawne didn't also cause the chain of events leading to the deaths?

@Will N I agree that he saw the benefit in only using the Robin name once, but he wasn't against the Red Robin identity. Tim used the moniker up until 2017 (or even 18?). Drake was Bendis' idea. But, yeah, it was a dumb idea.

Mister Fancyfeet?

Youd be surprised how complicated iris west is

As a fan of Tim, (He's my all time favorite character) I disagree. It really feels more like they just don't know what to do with him. "Robin", "Red Robin", "Drake". They just can't even figure out who he is. I have my own idea what they should do with him, but I doubt anybody wants to hear my fan fiction here.

We’d love to hear it.

Tim is the least interesting Robin.

@@Harleyxjokerforever you are wrong,very wrong

Yeah I feel they have him in eternal limbo unsure what to do which sucks

Hea a great character! I love golden age characters and the JSA

I am not racist, but Wallace West is a terrible character. He is cheap knockoff of Wally West and his existence is baffling. Wallace West is not the real Wally West, he is an imposter. I hate Wallace West and I’m happy that the real Wally West killed that fake bastard.

Trademarking takes time and people fear failure. What if people hate the new name? People always hate the new names. [x]

@@timyuusis3372 🤣👍👍

Because Flash Forward was an attempt to redeem him. It also gave him his family (but I didn't like the end with him being stuck in the Mobius Chair)

@Megan Todd I know there has been multiple people who have used the Flash name at the same time I'm just saying if DC really want's to have Barry Allen as the main Flash and for some illogical reason don't want Wally to have the Flash name then they just could have given him a new title rather then having Wally West a character that has earned the Flash name and is one of the best hero's turn evil for no good reason.

The idea of them sharing the name is stupid, terrible, and bad idea and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Wally West should just change his name.

@Megan Todd The flash isn’t a legacy character and he hasn’t stayed that way.

@@Kid_Spitfire Not wanting Wally West to have the Flash name isn’t illogical.

@@Kid_Spitfire You are right, they should have just changed Wally West’s codename.