Gem Cutting Debate - Commercial vs Precision Cutting

Рет қаралды 3,623

Жыл бұрын

Commercial cutting and precision cutting are terms used a lot with gemstones. What are they and does it really matter?
Explore more or contact me directly at gemshepherd.com

Пікірлер: 74

@matthewslade6694 Жыл бұрын

Your content is decidedly intriguing. Material you cover is informative, and the delivery is a combination of captivating and unique.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks Matthew ~ I strive.

@timmsmiithgm557 Жыл бұрын

Like everyone else, 100% agreement with you. I would also add that typical "commercial" cutting is 99% about weight-retention (which typically results in a LOT of windowing) whereas "precision" cutting is 99% about maximizing the color & light-play (scintillation). Ok, the "99%" was for dramatic-effect, so forgive me if it's actually 97%. Where can I find these Gucci sweatpants? 😁

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Definitely some strongly different demands at play that lead to this cutting style distinction. I'm glad to see a world thats moving towards bringing the most out of a stone's potential. As to the Gucci sweatpants... i'd check Dubai airport XD

@discoverygems8075 Жыл бұрын

A couple of comments - there are different levels of 'commerical' cutting. As someone who is a precision faceter AND operates a cutting facility in Thailand, where we do high quality 'commercial' cutting - I would argue that my Thai cutters, produce ALMOST as good a result as I can. Lets say that I can cut a stone at the level of 9/10 using my 'Ultratech', and polishing at 50k, louping the facets, and spending about 4 hours to cut a 1-2ct stone. Its not 'competition' level faceting, but its certainly precision faceting - with a faceted girdle, and the crown and pavilion meets meeting at the girdle, with a high level of polish. My Thais, using traditional Thai cutting equipment can NEARLY get there. And they can cut literally 10X as fast as I can. So - how much value is there in getting the cut from a solid 7-8 out of 10, vs the 9/10 for my cutting? When I cut a stone and offer it for sale, I tout that I have cut it. I highlight that it has several hours of my life invested in it. Obviously, I can only afford to do this if the material is worthy. I don't cut a lot (any) of quartzes, peridots, blue topazes etc... Fine tourmaline is about the 'lowest' I will go and generally I cut only sapphire. WIthout going into what I value my time at - I can't 'hide' that value in the finished product, if the product itself is an inexpensive stone. If I feel that my 4 hours is worth say... $200 - its hard for me to charge that on a $20 amethyst. But if I am cutting a $2000 sapphire, then perhaps I can bump it up a bit. The other issue - is one shouldn't castigate 'commerical' cut stones out of hand. These cutters who produce in factories have YEARS of experience and cut thousands more stones in their lifetimes than I ever will. A classic case is a Sri Lankan 'native' cut sapphire with a seemingly off-center culet/keel. RARELY - you will find one of these stones, and it is an easy improvement. 9 times out of 10 - the cutter has purposely cut that culet off center to capture a color zone. And if one just arbitrarily takes that stone and cuts it to a diagram on a 'precision' instrument - you will absolutely ruin the stone. You'll have a precision cut stone of inferior color vs a 'native' cut stone with lovely color. I know which one I want.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Definitely, on all accounts and thanks for sharing your experience in this. I think the Thai trade especially is looking at a huge change in the price of services in a few years. There is immense talent in the older generation, but i'm not convinced that there are a lot of young Thai willing to step into their place when they decide to retire. I've met a few younger cutters, but the most active seem to be 50+ I'm curious what your thoughts are on the talent pool, as you mention you also run a cutting facility.

@discoverygems8075 Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks my cutting facility is based in Chiang Mai, where we have much better retention. We also have a younger candidate pool available to us with the immigration into Thailand from Burma and Laos. So far, we have not had issues bringing in young people who want to learn the trade, and are willing to put in the time it takes. Our most experienced cutters have worked with us for 22 years - so they obviously like how we treat them, and we are gratified to have loyal cutters. While I am in Bangkok, I have noticed post-pandemic the number of GOOD contract cutting houses is smaller, and also in Chanthaburi, there is a lack of cutting capacity both in bodies and in skill. A lot of folks I think went back to their villages during the pandemic and so far have not returned. Indeed, I understand someone has established a cutting practice in Ihsaan....

@trevorallen2274 Жыл бұрын

I've learned much from your channel- just for learnings sake, but now I know more when I look at a gemstone and want to look at more thanks to you . I just tumble rocks.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

just tumble rocks... so far~!

@SnowTiger45 6 ай бұрын

I've been a hobby cutter for the last 3 years and only registered a business last summer. I'm an ADD'r and a Perfectionist. Even for the sake of Commercial Sales, I cannot bring myself to "rush" through any stone just to get onto the next one. I doubt I'll make any money with the business but I'll be happy just to offset the enormous expense of this .. Hobby/Business. I treat every stone almost as if it were a Competition stone.

@GemologyforSchmucks 6 ай бұрын

I'm glad to hear that you're committed to excellence. Crystals can't be put back together once they've been cut to smithereens, and many people have ruined nature's treasures in pursuit of quick money.

@5Perf65mm Жыл бұрын

Excellent explanation and examples of stones where facets didn’t meet etc.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

I strive to communicate clearly.

@opalessense 9 ай бұрын

I never thought I would ever hear gemstone and orgy together.

@GemologyforSchmucks 9 ай бұрын

It's a big world, and full of possibilities ^_^

@rainsticklandguitartalk9483 Жыл бұрын

Just binged your last few videos. Hadn't seen you online for months and was concerned, so I'm happy to see you're doing alright. Take care!

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your concern and your constant support. Glad to see you in the comments section again~

@pryortuck Жыл бұрын

I always learn something new when watching your videos. Great job. Please let me know If we can talk soon.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thank you ~ and yes - in this new week im open. The past week has been Nutzo

@gginpar 2 ай бұрын

I love your videos Peter, I am coming to Bangkok end of August for a course at AIGS, would love to buy you a coffee.

@GemologyforSchmucks 4 күн бұрын

Glad to hear that you're furthering your studies with AIGS. Send me an email and we can coordinate timing: thegemshepherd@gmail.com

@richardlasky7894 10 ай бұрын

This was brilliant..😍 This video showed me, Why most of my gems~ I just I just keep polishing but still looks scratchy... 👍🙏 Ty..

@GemologyforSchmucks 10 ай бұрын

Thanks ~ i'm glad that I can be of service.

@yankeetimeline Жыл бұрын

Great topic and video. In the USA so many jewelry stores rely on "native" cut stones for their jewelry inventory. It makes it hard on there rest of us how are asked to cut replacement stones for these pieces. Calibrated stones will now longer fix nicely in these types of jewelry. And custom pieces are not cheap.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks very much. Custom pieces, and custom REPLACEMENT pieces are indeed not cheap. In some ways it's easier to make a new piece of jewelry than resurrect someone else's relic. There's no talking logic when sentimental value is involved though, which we all have to accept I suppose.

@awesomysticehab4493 Жыл бұрын

The greatest videos in the industry. You're a great teacher btw. And I agree medium to medium high quality Emeralds do not benefit from the best polish but if you have an open c-axis emerald crystal with 98% plus crystal purity then it can greatly benefit from both custom cutting and highest grade polish to get that metallic sheen. But this is achievable by sacrificing precious weight and I ended up with two dozen emeralds between 0.91ct-0.99ct missing the 1 ct mark.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thank you for your kind words. High clarity emeralds are indeed a different ball game. I was fortunate to see a 12 carat no oil stone with such a polish from Panjshir. Glorious stuff.

@MrQuadragon Жыл бұрын

The economy of the gem market often demands the commercial cut, the jewelry industry by in large orders cheap and fast production of their rough product. Such a shame that some of the earth's finest gem rough is cut this way. (It can be re cut, but with some loss!) The average consumer is not educated in regards to the 4 Cs of gemstone quality, but they understand prices and the cheapest option wins more often than it should. However, the human eye can see symmetry or asymmetry very well and I choose to cut my own gems in the precision meet-point sequence in order to achieve high levels of symmetry because the difference is obvious to those "in the know."

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

I hear you and definitely agree. By and large the trinket buyers think they're getting the best value with a lower price when they don't recognize the difference. Covid era gem sales have shown us though that the fine margin of the worlds bests stones are what have been moving consistently. Mediocre stones are being passed over.

@briangilbert3884 Жыл бұрын

Another nice one Peter, Thanks! BTW, you know you're my favorite, but don't tell anybody...

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks Brian. And no worries - it'll be our little secret ;)

@stonefish4935 Жыл бұрын

Precision cut exist in different levels Competition cutting and commercial . , Commercial polishing for normal Stones is 14000 Grid Commercial precision polishing with 50-100.000 Grid for higher quality . If you are a competition cutter you need 200.000 Grid for the best polishing . But can you see the differential’s between 14,50,100 with the naked eyes ? I think not . Very interesting video Mister Schmucks . Thanks and 5 Stars

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your support, Stone Fish. There definitely are different grades, and who knows where the exact cut off is as to when we can recognize it with our naked eyes. I believe that there are somethings that we are able to recognize, without being able to pinpoint what exactly we are recognizing. Polish I believe falls in that category, though what level does our eye fail to disginguish? who can tell. Certainly I've noticed that gem professionals regularly see a difference between 14,000 and 60,000+ Cheers~

@iuliuteodorradu Жыл бұрын

Is it possible to take a commercially cut stone and then "turn it into" a precision cut / polish by doing more work on it? Very informative, thank you! I feel more like a schmuck with every video I watch, #1 indicator of learning.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Yes you can. The only difference between commercial and precision cut stones is the faceting itself. Of course, everytime you recut a stone, more of it is lost, so calculating how much you will lose in material (and saleable weight) and comparing that with potential gain in value from improving the stone is critical.

@anthonybost8646 Жыл бұрын

Totally agree with you on this. Hey got a question for you! easy enough to understand how you cut your stone but please tell how do you cut a 1mm stone? glue it to a dob stick and grind it? the small stuff really interest me on how you would cut it? love your shows thanks!

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

This is something that also interests me, and i've yet to see someone cut one in person. I do have a sub 1mm sapphire from a Thai dealer with full brilliant cutting. Its outrageous and I need to find out hoowwwww on earth they managed it.

@anthonybost8646 Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks by the way love the show...

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

@@anthonybost8646 Thanks Anthony~ glad to be of service.

@canadiangemstones7636 Жыл бұрын

Small stones require small dops, and magnification. They can be fun, because they cut so quick.

@Rev8 Жыл бұрын

Hello, new subscriber here. Love your enthusiasm. I've got an 8.3ct Tanzanite with incredible deep color and clarity - but a slightly bad cut. Do you know what would it cost to recut a gem like this?

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Hi and welcome to the channel~ Tanzanite can be spooky for some on account of its cleavage characteristic, which may affect a cutters fees. Usually cutters set a fee based on the final weight of the gemstone, though different cutters have different rates. You'd need to shop a number of cutters and see examples of their work. For the upper tier of cutters here in Bangkok, a 7-8 ct stone can carry a fee of a few hundred dollars, and there are others who are "willing to cut your stone" for substantially less. If your stone is "slightly" bad cut, I wouldn't recommend recutting it unless you find a lapidary that you impresses you.

@Rev8 Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks Thanks! I'll do exactly that. The stone has some windowing and extinction due to cutting for weight. Your videos really helped me figure out what I had.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

@@Rev8 Glad my work has been of service~

@elohelreh Жыл бұрын

SO true!! My commerically-sourced gems are pretty sad in comparison to precision cut ones. I have experience with 3 businesses - 1 commerical and 2 precision. The quality is incomparable but beyond that - I try to image business practices. Large bulk purchases where review is limited and sizes are varied to create multiple jewelry styles versus smaller purchases of individual or small parcels of eye-popping crystal material. Large scale cutters supplying me and the TV order Moms drunk on vino with pretty synthetics. Or the family of cutters with faces and meetpoints I can recognize with my naked eye.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

It's a large world in some senses - so many different demands and desires, and they certainly can't all be satisfied. Watching cutters try to juggle and interpret the actual desires of a client with what the client is telling them can be both comical and sad. Cheers, and thanks for the comment.

@rogerhargreaves2272 Жыл бұрын

I can’t agree with you more Peter on everything you mentioned. Sometimes a well cut stone just needs a bit of help & buff it up at home with a polishing kit. Lots of stones are line cut meaning up to 20 people can cut one stone with each person cutting an index.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

indeed - a little TLC can be all a stone needs, and other times it needs a full makeover.

@andrewpapp6147 Жыл бұрын

Hello Peter, thanks for your videos, I have learnt a lot. Just a quick question regarding your Sterling lapidary machine, if it's not to much to ask, are you able to see the voltage and frequency range somewhere on the machine? As I am in the Philippines, our voltage and frequency is 220/60 which is different to Sri Lankan and Thai. Thankyou.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Hi Andrew ~ i'm not sure on that one, as I'm limited in my understanding of electronics. What I CAN say though is that the people at Sterling tend to be quite open to adapting with their clients if you email them directly. They may be able to change the electronic configuration for your model if you ask them.

@andrewpapp6147 Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks Thanks for your reply Peter, I had sent a message last week through their Contact Us. So I'll do as you suggested and email them this time. Cheers

@franz6595 Жыл бұрын

Lovely video as always! I would like to buy some (true) synthetic reference stones to study and show to people. Like ruby, sapphire, diamonds, cubic zirconia, chrysoberyl and emerald. I know from your videos that you can have the raw materials for relatively little money. How much should I spend for a professional cut and polish, when buying in the 15-30ct range? I know this is rather vague, so a rough estimated range would be all I'm looking for. Skilled labor is not cheap, so my guess is 500€ per cut. Thank you so much!

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Hi Franz, Thanks for your kind words. Robert Tyrell has some good advice if youre looking for a reference set with specific inclusions and synthetic features. Otherwise if we were to have stones cut for you, the range of cutting in Bangkok varies widely, all the way from cents on the carat all the way up through about 50 dollars per carat for high end cutters. If you're having an assortment cut to similar specifications such as you're describing, those cutters may also give you a deal. It depends on how much work they've got at a given time and how fast you need them etc. As they say with the value triangle: you can have something that is good, cheap and fast, but you have to pick two of the three. I think your price guess should be possible for quality cutting depending on the size of the stone. Send me an email at thegemshepherd@gmail.com and we can discuss this further if you like.

@franz6595 Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks thank you very much, this is as always very helpful! Currently I'm getting to know the industry and craft. Also I'm still looking for the right place for me (collector, investor, ect. ?) This is unfortunately not my main career (I'm studying IT at this time). And sure, Robert Tyrell’s idea is definitely something I’m going to look into, or rather something I’m looking into right now. And probably the most reasonable! For the stones I mentioned, this would be my gateway drug of choice and I would like to have something perfect for that. So as soon as this is a possibility, I will get back to you! Plus it would be ideal to buy the stones from you directly (or from one of your sources).

@franz6595 Жыл бұрын

@@roberttyrrell2250 thank you, this is something I would add to the stones I mentioned. And it sounds like the most reasonable thing to do. Did not had this on my radar, but the more I look into it the better it gets. Also going to save your advice in my notes :D

@thoralfgraetz857 Жыл бұрын

Hi! I love youre videos! What is youre favorite gemstone, and why?

@franz6595 Жыл бұрын

I think he loves Gems with Asterism :D

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Thanks Thoralf ~ There are so many that I love, but Franz is correct - i'm a massive fan of stars (and cat's eyes) Optic phenomena delight me. The personality on many of the faceted corundum and spinels are impossible to ignore though also. Complex colour is one of the things ive come to respect most in this industry, and it humbles me as I continue learning more and realizing how few top tier stones there are. Your mouth flops open when you do see them though. I used to think emeralds were overrated. I've changed my mind. Most emeralds are overrated. Quality pieces show that emeralds truly earned their place. The same is true with Feicui jade. There's a lot of trash out there. The higher qualities can make you gasp.

@KP-ty9yl Жыл бұрын

I do think of better, well, precision when I hear precision cut. But also they tend to be more adventurous with their designs and not afraid to stray away from the classic round, oval, cushion, etc. I love how they optimize material like balancing brilliance and scintillation, considering pleochroism, or even incorporating inclusions into their design. Have also heard of cutters purposefully having their facets slightly off to balance out the color. Not sure if that’s a real thing or a justification for native cuts. 😂

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Its a wide world with lots of new-fangled and old-fangled ideas XD

@KP-ty9yl Жыл бұрын

@@GemologyforSchmucks PETER I just found a video that touches on what you were talking about. Titled “115th Gemstone Gathering | Precision Cut: How, Why and When?” here on KZfaq. He goes over a little of the theory of how polish can affect perceived tone and saturation, maybe even hue.

@lc4n333 Жыл бұрын

I don't have the experience but I hear from someone that this collector bought this collector's grade sapphire but he did not like the cutting because it was not precise so he ordered a cutter to recut it but the result was worse, the colour worsened (I don't know how bad because I don't see it myself, let's say the color grade lowered) and the price dropped significantly. I have my own collection of sapphires and most of them are not precision cut, the pavilion pyramid is not symmetrical. How do you think about that? Let's assume the polish is excellent, only the cut is not precise

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, having access to the right cutter is critical, and even excellent cutters have their bad days, or there are unforeseen problems in some stones. In general the most important thing to me when considering the quality of cut is the light return. Even if a cut is clunky, if colour and light are maximized, i'm typically happy. The pattern itself is more of a personal aesthetic. My opinion on patterns changes from stone to stone based on nothing more than a feeling and opinion on aesthetic. It would be totally reasonable for someone to have an opposing opinion.

@lc4n333 Жыл бұрын

I think for colored gems if colour is great, inlclusion not noticeable, precise cut is not much my consideration. But in diamond market people will go crazy about precision cut like heart and arrow because diamond without excellent cut and polish won't have that fire.

@GemologyforSchmucks Жыл бұрын

@@lc4n333 Absolutely. Coloured gems have so much more personality. In non-fancy colour diamonds the quality measure is basically: the more sterile it is the better. because of that, you can treat them however you want. Coloured gems have so much variety of colour that maximizing and preserving colour is more critical by far than an assumption that one faceting pattern is the ideal.