Won’t cost me a dime - Gibson has been surpassed by everyone

The judge has an SG and hates the neck dive.

Martin should give Gibson a taste of their own medicine and go to court to stop the Big G from selling Dreadnoughts.

3 mill is just another epiphone greeny restock to them.

Dean's been making those guitars since the late 70's. Gibson needs to move on.

When you can no longer innovate or create quality products, just sue everybody. Serious question: Is Gibson even a music company anymore?

Also of note is that Dean as a company, has a pretty radically different customer base than Gibson. Dean for the last 20 years or so, has catered mostly to the hard rock and metal base. Their endorsement roster is almost all metal guys. Gibson of course, mostly a classic rock base. Dean isn't really significant competition to Gibson. Metal-focused brands like Dean, Esp and Jackson really compete with each other for that space. Gibson's real competition is PRS

People have been making telecaster and Stratocaster shaped guitars for a long time and Fender thrived

Gibson customers have been paying for their hyperactive legal department for years, unless you think a guitar with jagged frets and finish blemishes actually was worth nearly $3k all this time.

Why doesn't Gibson just hire all the lawyers that play their guitars? Pay them in "lifestyle" swag. Or maybe introduce a exclusive Court Fees Collection.

I’m sorry, counterfeit? If I buy a guitar that clearly states Dean on the headstock, I know or should know it’s not a Gibson. Geez, where did Gibson get their attorneys from, Liberty University?

Hamer made the best Explorer copy which Cheap Trick played live for decades. You couldn't get a Gibson version back then since Gibson was only making them in limited runs. Today those Hamer versions are getting both hard to find and expensive too.

Does this explain the "Zero F*cks Given" 2-page ad Dean has in this month's Music Inc magazine?

So now the real big question is... will Dean go after Gibson for lost revenue from the artists they lost, particularly to Gibson. Just one e-mail or text or document saying that could potentially happen if they sued Dean, then they might have a case.

When Gibson wanted to reintroduce the V and the Explorer Dean was the only one that had the exact specs. They literally had to get Dean in to help out. He did it, and for free. Fortunately the guy has kept a daily diary since he was a kid and still does. He can go to court with year, date and time and what was said and done.

It's weird that they used "counterfeit" because the Dean guitars never used a Gibson headstock nor a Gibson logo. There was definite issues in that first court finding. I do not know anything about high end purses, but I do know how to read a label.

A Heritage is the only gibson I will ever buy.

Fender also own Jackson and I feel that Dean was an easy target because of upheaval that they'd had compared to the likes of fender

That's stretching the true meaning of 'counterfeit' 🤣 Glad that was thrown out.

Sometimes I have a hard time feeling bad for companies. Think it is mostly in the moments that I realize how little they care about us as the people who buy their products. Like when they've been saying prices went up because costs went up, but still manage to post record profits that would be impossible if their costs really were higher. When their arguments for trademark and copyright infringement or fair use have become so distorted that any reasonable person can see that no one is buying a Dean thinking it's a Gibson or that a KZfaqr teaching people how to play a song isn't somehow taking away from how many people buy an album or stream a single. That kind of stuff doesn't sit well with me. Go track down the Chinese companies literally putting Gibson on the headstock of their guitars and blatantly copying the body and headstock shapes.

The company I work for is a large multi-national and will drop tens of millions on a case just because they can, whether as defendant or plaintiff. It's an intimidation tool in many instances and a show that we can out spend the opponent. In many cases the other side buckles under. Gibson will do the same on a smaller scale to smaller companies.

Why spend money on competent luthiers when you can spend it on greedy lawyers?

gibson is the bully of guitar brands.

One of the things that pissed me off was Dean always sold their 79' V's for around $600, so Epiphone for years had their 58' Korina match that same price, but after they won their lawsuit with Dean they doubled their price (I guess they gave you case).

I bought five guitars before I realized they were made by Dean and not Gibson. 😉

Reverend discontinued their V shaped models when Gibson started going sue happy a few years ago. The Reverend V has uneven legs, so they were probably safe, but I presume that they just didn't want any hassle from G. It's a shame because their Vs were kinda cool. I bought one before they all disappeared from the shelves.

Bring on the esp explorer

I've owned six Gibson guitars in the past 30 years, every one needed work, in some cases a lot of work, to be playable. My Censtar, a $180 guitar has out classed every Gibson I owned. I don't know why, other than the name, anyone would pay the price for a Gibson.

Gibson may not refile this lawsuit. In the original lawsuit the court did not allow evidence on why Gibson never went after many other guitars makers form doing the same, and the fact Dean had been doing this since 1977. The appeals court found that this was wrong, and that evidence should have been and must be heard. So, if Gibson appeals, they most likely will lose due to the fact that the new evidence will likely not work in their favor. Gibson most likely didn't expect Dean to appeal, but I guarantee you that Dean had financial support from many other smaller companies to do so. The new legal council Dean had for the appeal, was the same that helped PRS take down Gibson.

hearing thousand dollar epiphone still feels like a fever dream

They are pushing the "exclusivity"... almost 2k for an epiphone and cancelling the Les Paul Tribute series.. I was looking to buy a tribute or studio... ended up with a 2nd hand 1989 (one year only) MIK Epiphone, for a more than half the cost of a Tribute. Good wood, long neck tennon, flame top.. sounds just the same.

Guess what. Every time any company or business is sued, or gets involved in litigation, ultimately it has to pay for it out of revenues. The exorbitant awards and settlements in the US legal system make everything more expensive.

It's fascinating how they own Kramer, who make Strats.

One look at the headstock tells any casual player it's a Dean and not a Gibson.

Would love to know the breakdown on the 3 mil. Most companies have lawyers on retainer. Sounds like some outside lawyer suckered Gibson into hiring at a flat rate.

You would think the giant DEAN logo would be enough of a tell that the guitar is not a Gibson

I am a lawyer and practice in the 5th circuit. To clarify, the court of appeals ordered a new trial, not a dismissal. Gibson does not have to refile or start over. In the new trial, evidence that was erroneously kept out will be allowed in. This will supposedly give Dean a little better chance at trial. Gibson will not have to spend millions more in attorney fees.

$1300 epiphones? We definitely already have been.

It won't cost this guitarist a penny. I don't need a nike swoosh on my shoes to walk to the store.

@WalkenDead good call. so few people seem to know that body shapes whose trademarks are unenforced for decades become unenforceable.

Gibson is pretending branding doesn't exist and is arguing the average guitar consumer cannot tell the difference between products. Guitar body shapes are so similar and standardized that headstock shapes and branding ARE the differentiators. I bought a Dean Z as a teenager and I never for one second thought it was a Gibson.

From an insider: "I worked at the Memphis plant for a while. You will never know when you will have to work Saturday. Usually this is more often than not. They push numbers instead of quality hoping the end result will meet the bottom line numbers. The masses will come back time and again to buy these guitars because of the name on the headstock. I have deep inside 1st hand knowledge proving that these guitars are anything but quality. Glue joints that have no glue, super glue on top of wood glue when the first glue joint didn't hold, truss rods that aren't even close to centered down the neck, should I go on?? I personally saved this division a pocket full of money with major obstacles I showed them how to overcome, (which they happiy implemented) and I was never once rewarded. To the contrary, I was harassed by management and given an abundance of lip service, and unfortunately, I can not go into further detail at the moment. If you need a job because you are hurting for money, then look to this place as a temp solution. Turn over is off the charts!!" So yeah , screw Gibson/Epiphone. I have two les paul style guitars - both Fernandes - and both less expensive and infinitely better built than Gibson.

Maybe gibson should of taken Cort to court?😆 My first real guitar was a Cort Fly-V effector and it was NOT pointy. That replaced my first electric guitar, a Spiegel catalog amp and guitar combo for 106.00 back in late 80's; still have the amp with the one speed ( slow ) tremolo 😆

As a consumer I like a competitive business environment. We all reap the benefits of it. I also don’t appreciate Gibson implying that the general playing community is so unaware / uninformed that we’d be hoodwinked by a body shape. If you’re an uninformed consumer in 2024 that’s your fault. We have the collective knowledge of the world at our fingertips and it’s guided by algorithms that are actively working to make it accurate and effective. (And separate us from our time and money) Maybe Gibson should spend less money on lawyers and more on SEO. To me the real takeaway here is Gibson’s lack of confidence in their own brand recognition. I wouldn’t confuse a Honda Civic with a Toyota Corolla; and they’re pretty dang similar. My hope is that one day guitar manufacturers will act more like pedal companies. Eager to collaborate and bring us cool new and unique stuff. Instead of squabbling over fractions of market share. Thank you Phil!

The Jackson Vee is different because those pointy ends are as fragile as a wine glass.

Nice video 📹 and workmanship

Loving these types of videos.

Hopefully ESP smells the blood in the water and resurrects the MX platform, but I can't imagine Gibson gets the message that being ultra litigious usually ends up damaging your brand in the long run.

Couple of things: IIRC, the lawsuit against Ibanez in the 70s, the decision in their favor was over headstock shape. Body shape wasn't protected at the time. As to import vs domestic. Dean does, or did, make guitars right there in their Tampa headquarters, and at one time, they were about half the price of Gibsons USA made instruments.

Wasn't gonna buy a G. or Epi Vee anyway. A Dean, or other cheaper brand, yessir....

As a long term musician/consumer, I have no trouble distinguishing a Dean guitar from a Gibson. That is the reason I do not own a Gibson guitar.

Great breakdown Phil, thanks.

Maybe the reason for the law suit, was to secure artists then? They lose the artists, they lose the advertising, they lose exposure. Get the artists back, then all those issues go away.

Basic SGs about to be One Godzillion Dollars

Does anyone know what Gretsch model is over his shoulder? It's killing me trying to figure it out. Thanks in advance.

I'd think the shape of the Jackson V is far enough away from the Gibson V, the points of the Jackson V are sharp rather than rounded plus the lower arm of the Jackson V is shorter than the top.

Now where does this leave Hamer, as they were sued by Gibson over the Hamer Standard a few years back.

Les Paul standard broke 5000 Australian dollars (2500 US dollars )..... this year, guess we know why. Some Murphy Labs cost over $15,000..... there is so many of them too.....many more than Standards????

The Judge has a Gibson with broken headstock.

The $4000 was the statutory minimum. If the jury could have given less, they perhaps would have, but they were bound to a minimum of $1000 per infringement once they found four instances of infringement. It was a confusing award, because they also found laches, which would nullify their findings of infringement. But they seemed to still find infringement, but gutted any award to the statutory minimum. And now that the appeals court said that evidence of market use of the shapes outside of Dean can be entered in trial, it could be a very different outcome.

Counterfeit is a stretch. Just look at the headstock. From the nosebleed section of the venue I could tell a Dean from a Gibson being played on stage.

I have sold few Hamer guitars that had identical body shape to Flying V . I don't know why Hamer doesn't exist but they used to be kind of an alternative .

Firefly joins chat! 😂

To be honest all the body and headstock shape patents are a bit ridiculous. I'm almost sure you could demonstrate with mathematics and mechanics (physics) that there are only so many shapes you can do where you can fit a guitar neck, free space for fret access at the upper frets, and provide a contour for your forearm to rest on. Eventually guitars will look similar to each other and you'll always end up with something looking close to either a Fender or a Gibson.

Good vid with timely info. You’re right tho, that 3M will no doubt come from our pockets….

If you get an expert, and he looks extremely closely at the minute details, I wonder if he could find any differences in the headstock?

Gibson needs to stop litigating against their competitors and concentrate on the quality control of their instruments.

Gibson coming out with the Slash Toilet seat in flame maple soon.

I think another legal argument to be made is: Dean's been making V and Z body styles for DECADES before Gibson brought suit. For a trademark to remain valid, the holder has to actively defend that mark (C&D / suits, etc).

ive never owned a gibson my entire life seemed like antique furniture or somethin

Nice job, Dude. Makes feel like we are in the same loop as a dealer. I want everyone to succeed. I see Gibson wanting to protect their....umm...uhhh..heritage..but it has almost gotten to a point where it seems like Volkswagon suing Porsche.

Gibson's legal department going after Kiesel is the biggest reason I went with the Kiesel singlecut over an actual Gibson Les Paul. The quality was way better compared to the Les Pauls at my local music store too (at least in fret work). I want to like Gibson because of how iconic they are, but their legal department makes them very hard to cheer for.

Interesting development

How many strat and tele copies are there?

What about the Ibanez VBT700, only made for one year (2007, iirc) before Gibson shut them down.

I have a cheapo dean cadillac and it’s pretty awesome.

I love my Dean V, its neck is a v too. Great guitar, love my Gibsons too. They should both save their money, and build great guitars.

Maybe everyone can make their own Explorer, Flying V, Les Paul and SG shaped guitar bodies from now on without having to alter it slightly.

Funny you say that we will pay for Gibson's lawsuits. We already have. I stopped at a local GC and they are selling LP Standards for $2999. That guitar sold for $1800ish several years ago. Though that tobacco burst LP was so beautiful, I walked away knowing that I won't pay 3k for a LP Standard or Traditional.

Congratz to Dean, love those headstocks

I bought an 8 string with kahler thinking it was a Gibson. But couldn't find qc flaws so i knew it was a fake!

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." At least it used to be. For those of us who are hobbyists, and love the aesthetics of Gibson, the Chinese artisans have created the whole Gibson line up @

How is it possible that much money can be spent filing a lawsuit? Can’t believe 3m!

The general shape is not enough, it’s absurd to try to enforce that.

Yeah this has been the best bit of news. If Gibson was smarter, which as we know they’re not, they would stay outta the courtroom. Not only that but LOWER the prices, make the quality much better, and be less of a douchebag. Based on this, if they raise the prices again because of this court stuff…. Then those buying can suffer for their stupidity.

One thing I have to disagree on that for me a Korean Dave Mustaine VMNT (1250 usd at the time and the Gibson Explorer (or Flying V) for about the same price and I wanted both the same. After owning both the Dean and a 2016 Gibson Explorer T I can clearly say that the Dean had better QC.

Gobson should use the lawsuit money on its quality control. If you dont know about guitars you would buy an epiphone lespaul thinking it was a lGibson les paul but if you know about guitar brands and models you would know that the guitar you are wanting to buy is the brand and model that you want. The shapes of guitars doesn’t make it a counterfeit what does is using a brands name , trademark that is owned by a competitor. After all Gibson was not the first brand to come out with guitar original guitar shapes when it first started. Just like all guitar makers

Great video man :)

But will Reverend ever reintro the Tricky Gomez. They'd have to use a different name, I'd guess.

I listened to the court audio including the discussion that Gibson claimed Dean was "counterfeiting" these guitar models. If true, Dean would be the world's worst counterfeiter, for among other things, spelling "GIBSON" as "D-E-A-N." 🤣

And this is why Gibson and associates have raised prices to where they are today, we/you pay for these cases.

This is good news to me. I think it's stupid to be able to trademark a shape.

Just the fact that Dean have been making these guitars for so long should mean the case is thrown out, why did Gibson wait so long to sue?

Darn. I’m such an idiot. I snagged up all those Dean V’s thinking they were Gibson V’s and tried to resell them for $6000 each (according to Gibsons thinking). No wonder no one is buying them for $6000 on Reverb 😁 Seriously though, this was a pretty weak argument from Gibson’s legal team. No surprise to me that someone overturned it

Sweet!

Dean should bring back the Custom 450!

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I just hope from all of this that PRS will build 7 and 6 sting V’s from here on in

WTF? How have all these other companies been turning out Strat and Tele copies all these years?

All those Murphy Labs paying for legal