Thank you Yeonwoo for covering baduk news for English-speaking audiences :)
@aunthemod Жыл бұрын
100% ^^^^
@chengzhangli804 Жыл бұрын
Clarification: Yang didn't say if he lost in the 20 games he would retire. What he said was he wanted to played with Li for 20 games (no electronic devices, no bathroom) and release the records to the public. After seeing the game records, if people still think Li didn't cheat, then Yang will retire. So basically win or lose doesn't matter.
@sinfinite7516 Жыл бұрын
I didn’t realize this would happen in the Go world right after the Chess world :0
@sanderforpresident Жыл бұрын
His go speaks for itself
@hillsideonly Жыл бұрын
Hahaha, Li Moke Xuanhao
@YSFmemories Жыл бұрын
Yang has character. Magnus is a sore loser. If Magnus had character, he should also be willing to put his entire career and reputation on the line. Instead, he just bullied a kid he lost to.
@zaksmith1035 Жыл бұрын
@@YSFmemories Not reductive at all. Magnus had enough character to stand up against cheating, no matter the consequences, and it's just SO coincidental that he happened to "bully" the "kid" who was found to have cheated in the past, said later that he only cheated a few times, then was found to have cheated many more times. All things that Carlsen pointed out. Yeah, sore loser. That's it.
@YSFmemories Жыл бұрын
@@zaksmith1035 bullshit. Magnus is not man enough to do what Yang did. He didn't say anything for weeks and only acted like an arse the entire time, until he was sure he won't be any legal trouble at all. He just wanted to abuse his influence while making sure that he won't take any consequences at all, and the reality is, he isn't facing any consequence for his accusations with no evidence. To this day, there is still ZERO evidence that Hans cheated OTB.
@hyh6388 Жыл бұрын
Hello, thanks for sharing. As a Chinese speaking baduk player I'm curious what Korean players said about this event. What is Shin Jinseo's view on this? How about Byun Sangil and Park Junghwan? Their opinion and judgement matters. Also what does Mok Jin-seok think? Also so far among all the Chinese Pros I only Peng Quan 7p (born 1985) supported Li Xuanhao. (He was a fan of Li Xuanhao before and said Li trained really hard before, and he also commented in a very recent streaming that he believe Li's honesty.) I really think the whole situation is a mess right now. Didn't hear anything from Li yet. I think the best move for Li Xuanhao is to fly to Seoul and play 20 games with Shin Jinseo 😅.
@kinnikushiba Жыл бұрын
Performance over the board (OTB) will probably be the only way the tell if someone cheats online.
@penguinista Жыл бұрын
Now just add an allegation that he communicated with the AI through a bluetooth butt plug and this story will go viral.
@foxfox6214 Жыл бұрын
Please update this story once you can, this is my favorite source to hear from.
@allgame6559 Жыл бұрын
I suspected Li Xuanhao because he had no fear at all in the recent board tournament. unhuman
@gorsang6535 Жыл бұрын
I can see why the top pros suspect Li. When I ran his games against Shin Jinseo, Fan Tingyu and Gu Zihao on katago, many of his moves feel inhuman and unnatural. I feel A.I can help improve a player in many areas but not so much in reading and judgement in mid game fighting... that comes from solving problems and experience from playing. The fact that Li Xuanhao has so many blue moves in critical fights while claiming to only train from A.I is very suspicious. That said, it's not nice to accuse without evidence. I hope Yang and Li can play in a series as proposed but Yang will probably punished in the end for speaking out and no proper conclusion will come to fruition.
@seanfaherty Жыл бұрын
I don't play the game at a high level but if players are taught by AI is it a surprise their moves feel like AI ?
@gorsang6535 Жыл бұрын
@@seanfaherty I can't speak for top pros. I'm only 8d on Fox server myself so I can only share my experience. It's possible to memorise the A.I moves in the openings and match blue moves following the game flow. But in middle game fighting, its near impossible to find all the A.I moves. That's because human players follow a thought process, like 'this area is important' or 'I must get that big place'. The sequence of moves we play follow up on a certain line of thinking. Li's game is weird because in his game against Shin, move 36 aims to cover the ladder and then he switches to left side (40/42) and then back to 44 for the ladder again. If a player judge that the ladder is not severe, its extremely hard to determine when it will be bigger than the next big place. Similarly, the concept for move 56 and 58 doesn't line up. Is it possible Li thinks like an A.I? Maybe. Is it conceivable that he calculated and is capable of move 44, 58 and 64? Possibly. Is it also realistic to do all that and the win rate graph doesn't fluctuate in point lead? I personally am not convinced. But yeah, to answer your question, it is a pretty damn big surprise in my opinion.
@gorsang6535 Жыл бұрын
And to further add on, Li gave his interview after the match and said the mid game is a 1 way street but that is simply not true. And he played extremely fast. Move 64 involves an immense amount of calculation. It involves black extending, the attach, a huge scale capturing race variation (which black wins by 1 liberty), etc. Without evidence, no one can say if he used A.I but I think Yang Dingxin has reasons to doubt him.
@Zuron Жыл бұрын
@@gorsang6535 Would be nice if Yang Dingxin also gave his reasoning. Accusations without evidence or reasoning are making him sound unhinged.
@seanfaherty Жыл бұрын
@@gorsang6535 thanks
@MeepleZero Жыл бұрын
Hi, I have a question: Where in Seoul would you recommend to go when you would like to buy a Baduk-set? Any recomendations of stores to visit in person?
@Laowu1898 Жыл бұрын
As an amateur player, I can tell if my opponent is much stronger than me. I believe Yang probably felt hopeless when he played Li and it was unreal for any human player to crush him so easily. That being said, Yang’s suspension was definitely not groundless!
@theworldofwoo8320 Жыл бұрын
Lol Hans Nieman sued Carlsen but he won't be getting any money. Since he was accused his level of play has suddenly dropped a notch. Also Niemann admitted he cheated in the past. These cases aren't the same.
@7heHorror Жыл бұрын
Yes, saying you don't want to play against someone who admitted to cheating in the past is not defamation!
@penguinista Жыл бұрын
I'd say they are different. No butt plug!
@StrategicGamesEtc Жыл бұрын
Yeah, the jurisdictions are also completely different. I'm not sure how hard it is to prove defamation in Korea, but I would assume it's easier than in the US.
@unfixablegop Жыл бұрын
Li cheating here is more probable than that Niemann cheating in his infamous game. Carlson was very probably misled by his knowledge that Niemann was a serial online cheat. But here both the superhuman alignment with computer moves and basically all Chinese pros agreeing makes cheating very probable in Li's case. If the other Chinese pros did not feel very strongly about this, they would be proud of the win against the Korean #1 instead.
@damiester19 ай бұрын
IDK about that lol. The Niemann game with Magnus didn't look suspicious, but his other games did. The fact that Niemann did cheat before admittedly makes his case a lot more glaring.
@YSFmemories Жыл бұрын
wu jie doesn't mean that yang dingxin can't understand Li Xuanhao, it means that there is no solution, i.e he's undefeatable. the other line was "Shin Jinseo was so lucky, he hasn't had to face God since 2020 until now" And the part about hong huang genre of fantasy stories, there are different levels, each novel is different, but it goes from something like lianqi, zhuji, jindan, yuanying, dujie, chengding, huanzhen... and then you go from the mere "mortal" realms to the "xian" (godly) realms of xu xian, di xian, tian xian, jin xian, saints... Yang is saying that Li Xuanhao is "only" at the "tian xian" level and not a saint yet, which is still several levels above mere mortals (a few dozen dan levels)
@dchung726 Жыл бұрын
Please help Yeonwoo! I am in Korea now and trying to find some quality Go stones. It is much harder than I had anticipated. Where can I go to find some thick yunzi stones? The flea market-style stores that I have been to only carry starter stones.
@AHAAAA Жыл бұрын
If Yang's proposition comes true, it will bring out the moment of truth. It does not matter who win the series, nor how many times one win. There is something like "match ratio with AI". A simple comparison of the match ratios of Li's play records between those of broadcast games and those of the series will suffice to tell the truth. Alternatively, if all the games from now on are broadcast delayed about 1 hour as chess games, it will provide us with enough datas to compare the match ratios. If the chinese baduk agency, China Qiyuan, has the will to find the truth, some existing datas will do for this case. That is the core of the problem, IMHO. To our disappointment, the agency appears to be engrossed in covering the case up for now.
@eb3632 Жыл бұрын
Too many cheats in chess and go now. Really sad.
@hmkgermany Жыл бұрын
There isn't evidence of Li Xuanhao cheating clown
@tny1004 Жыл бұрын
6 months fast forward now, Yang and other Chinese pro's seem right on LI's cheating. Li 's losing a lot this year, a top rank player just under .500 in win-loss column, especially after WIFI signal was cut off in all game buildings this year. His go skill falters as WIFI signal is blocked, oh shame on him, he should be banned from professional go but Chinese Go association is blaming Yang, went hush, and still not doing anything about it.
@ig2d Жыл бұрын
Innocent until proven guilty
@mooseymoose Жыл бұрын
Faraday cage match!
@kilianconn5091 Жыл бұрын
Impossible to tell without physical evidence. If he primarily learns by playing against and studying AI then it's not really surprising that he consistently makes AI favored moves. I know everyone is studying AI right now, but some people will simply be better at interpreting AI behavior than others.
@penguinista Жыл бұрын
If steps are taken to exclude any possible communication with AI and he suddenly doesn't play nearly as much like an AI, that would be damning.
@paulbloemen7256 Жыл бұрын
So it seems Li trains with AI, not with human competitors. If I understood your video on Shin’s training schedule a year or so ago, Shin does the same. Maybe this is the new way to become stronger? My guess is, you need a constant flow of information to do well, an incidental source of information when going to a bathroom isn’t enough. Wasn’t Li checked by several monitors like Shin was? It seems impossible to me to cheat when being closely watched, and you have no IT devices on you, like a phone, ear sets, or even glasses. Or a device at dark places. The accusers cannot prove anything, I’m afraid, then they are smearing a player, and the game of go.
@YSFmemories Жыл бұрын
I mean I agree with you, but I see the other side as well. For extremely strong players, any information can help them. Like chess GMs talked about how all they need is a signal telling them whether there's a critical move or not, and they will definitely be able to find it if they knew there was one. Go is much more complicated, but they may still gain and advantage if there's some small amounts of info being given. That said, I really hope that it isn't the case that a top go player cheated.
@paulbloemen7256 Жыл бұрын
@@YSFmemories Yes, it becomes very weird if even the most insignificant looking sign may influence the course of play. One then should make sure that during play no contact between players and any other human beings is possible, with the exception of the referee. It makes me think of contract bridge, where there is a screen across the table, and cards are used for any bidding information, no spoken messages anymore. And being slow on deciding may be suspicious too. So, thorough inspection, and total isolation it will be, with special arrangements for bathroom, food and drinks. Oh well, why not? In the meantime, smearing without proof should be a punishable offense, as the effect of it for the victims is very severe, more than a slap in the face.
@YSFmemories Жыл бұрын
@@paulbloemen7256 yeah, which is why I was, and still am completely against Magnus Carlsen. He was abusing his influence to ruin a person's life without proof. But if Yang Dingxin can go through with retirement in case he's wrong, then he's also risking himself, which makes it much more palatable for me.
@sinfinite7516 Жыл бұрын
My guy got them Go an*l beads
@user-gv8vd8pg5g Жыл бұрын
Since the invention of Alpha Go, the ecology of Go has undergone great changes. Almost all top Go players choose to play against artificial intelligence for training. The question people wonder is why a 27-year-old player who has no outstanding results can suddenly improve by leaps and bounds in the past six months. Of course, there is no evidence for all this. That's why another Go player, Yang Dingxin, bet on his career to verify whether Li Xuanhao cheated. For this situation, I respect it.
@kinnikushiba Жыл бұрын
大変です!
@letMeSayThatInIrish Жыл бұрын
I only watched some AI analysis with katrain on telegraphgo's twitch channel, but it seems SJS was not playing his best game. I didn't get the impression there was cheating in this game.
@theworldofwoo8320 Жыл бұрын
Well case closed then.
@KaninTuzi Жыл бұрын
@@theworldofwoo8320 Lol
@letMeSayThatInIrish Жыл бұрын
@@theworldofwoo8320 😄
@monosword1 Жыл бұрын
tele is only fox 7d and he's wayyy too weak to tell how some moves are strange for 9p players. Li played too many surprising moves (that also matches AI move) for 9ps that were doing the commentary.
@letMeSayThatInIrish Жыл бұрын
@@monosword1 It wasn't his commentary, but the AI showing lower than usual performance for SJS. Of course I have nothing but scorn and contempt for telegraphgo! . . . JUST KIDDING TELE, I LOVE YOUR STREAMS 😄
@dauraktv Жыл бұрын
My old friend doesn’t play me anymore because I believe he thinks I cheated online against him and won. He doesn’t even respond to my messages online. He’s an older man and should have more respect. I would lose every game against him, only winning games with two stones, but this game I won by a landslide. All the other games we didn’t have much time to play, but this one was over weeks. I’m disappointed in him. He’s a sore loser. He’s seen me progress super fast in this game over the years.
@johkonut Жыл бұрын
How sad. Just move on.
@lyingcat9022 Жыл бұрын
Unfortunate situation for sure. Perhaps if you become consistently stronger than him very soon he won’t be able to assume you cheated anymore. Especially if he talk during a review and you are able to explain your moves/ideas and point out where you think his mistakes were.
@KaninTuzi Жыл бұрын
Many people are suspecting Shin Jinseo himself of being an AI-user due to his freakish dominance...
@babao1442 Жыл бұрын
Like who specifically? This is just not really true.
@KaninTuzi Жыл бұрын
@@babao1442 It's a common sentiment among many go fans, and even Ke Jie has alluded to it on his stream. It's not at the level of outright accusation. Just some suspicions based on his extreme dominance.
@babao1442 Жыл бұрын
@@KaninTuzi Then Ke Jie backtracked/explained he was not accusing SJS at all of using AI. Perhaps it's something a minority of go fans feel, but it's not at all the same as being actually accused of cheating.
@KaninTuzi Жыл бұрын
@@babao1442 Well, that's exactly what I'm saying, so we are in agreement. However, I hadn't heard of Ke Jie's backtracking. Thanks for bringing that up.
@keqi6225 Жыл бұрын
If you accuse Li is cheating with AI, you must at the same time accuse Shin Jinseo is cheating with AI. They're very similar. The only difference is that in China, more people are out-spoken, they speak out what they suspect. But in South Korea, no one dares to say it. Also, the Korean Go Academy is most likely involved in Shin's cheating, while Li is most likely on his own. Anyway, Shin Jinseo got more from AI cheating. His most recent 2-3 world champianships are all won by cheating with AI. Of course, if you don't think Shin Jinseo is cheating with AI, it just doesn't have enough evidence to accuse Li either. Until you can show us more physical evidence, you have to assume that they're both innocent.