Grandiose & Vulnerable Narcissism: Which is worse? Is Recovery Possible?
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5 жыл бұрынThis video answers the question Can I talk about grandiose and vulnerable narcissism and which one is worse? In order to answer this question, I will look at certain characteristics of grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Which one is more associated with sadness? Which type offers a greater chance of recovery?
Grandiose narcissism has a pathological variant called narcissistic personality disorder. Vulnerable narcissism does not, however, there are some disorders which are close.
Grandiose and vulnerable narcissism share some characteristics: self-centeredness, a sense of entitlement, and a need for admiration. Using the five-factor model (OCEAN: openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism) we see that both have low agreeableness.
Grandiose narcissism is characterized by arrogance, being socially bold, having high self- confidence, having superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, callous/unemotional traits, optimism, externalized anger, and high extraversion
Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by being resentful, distrusting other people, insecurity, shame, hypersensitivity, low extraversion, defensiveness, being avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, shy, pessimistic, having self-absorbed aloofness, and a fragile sense of self.
Edwards, B. G., Albertson, E., & Verona, E. (2017). Dark and vulnerable personality trait correlates of dimensions of criminal behavior among adult offenders. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 126(7), 921-927.
Kealy, D., & Rasmussen, B. (2012). Veiled and Vulnerable: The Other Side of Grandiose Narcissism. Clinical Social Work Journal, 40(3), 356-365.
McCain, J. L., & Campbell, W. K. (2018). Narcissism and social media use: A meta-analytic review. Psychology of Popular Media Culture, 7(3), 308-327.
Neufeld, D. C., & Johnson, E. A. (2016). Burning with envy? Dispositional and situational influences on envy in grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Journal of Personality, 84(5), 685-696.
Sandage, S. J., Jankowski, P. J., Bissonette, C. D., & Paine, D. R. (2017). Vulnerable narcissism, forgiveness, humility, and depression: Mediator effects for differentiation of self. Psychoanalytic Psychology, 34(3), 300-310.
Jauk, E., Weigle, E., Lehmann, K., Benedek, M., & Neubauer, A. C. (2017). The relationship between grandiose and vulnerable (hypersensitive) narcissism. Frontiers in Psychology, 8.
Mechanic, K., & Barry, C. christopher. barry@usm. ed. (2015). Adolescent Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism: Associations with Perceived Parenting Practices. Journal of Child & Family Studies, 24(5), 1510-1518.
Kealy, D., Sandhu, S., & Ogrodniczuk, J. S. (2017). Looking ahead through a fragile lens: Vulnerable narcissism and the future self. Personality & Mental Health, 11(4), 290-298.
Miller, J. D., Lynam, D. R., Vize, C., Crowe, M., Sleep, C., Maples, K. J. L., … Maples-Keller, J. L. (2018). Vulnerable Narcissism Is (Mostly) a Disorder of Neuroticism. Journal of Personality, 86(2), 186-199.
Edwards, Bethany G., Emily Albertson, and Edelyn Verona. 2017. “Dark and Vulnerable Personality Trait Correlates of Dimensions of Criminal Behavior among Adult Offenders.” Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Dark Personality Traits: Challenges and Innovations, 126 (7): 921-27.
@DougWIngate 4 жыл бұрын
As someone who knows both textbook grandiose and vulnerable narcissists, this is how I feel: A grandiose is like a gunshot wound: extremely unpleasant, but self-contained and manageable. A vulnerable narcissist is like radiation: harmless in small doses, but dangerous through prolonged exposure
@singtoangels 3 жыл бұрын
Or as my husband referred to my grandmother (the vulnerable narc) 'Hurricane Wendy'. Infects everything they touch and destroys it.
@onelove8593 3 жыл бұрын
That's a good analogy
@francesbernard2445 3 жыл бұрын
Not always. Narcissism in a grandiose cult guru who knows what they are doing appears to others at first as cunning, baffling and mysterious. Which is how a lot of thieves and in truth only a beggar cult gurus operate. Trying to beat them at their own game by only undercover playing along will never work since they are always going to be in their own mind so much better than everyone else at reinventing the wheel. that would be like agreeing to get into a vehicle a drunk invited you to be a passenger in with the goal of getting from point A to point B by having plan C of only stealing away his or her steering wheel right away when it appears that the going is about to get rough.
@jolenemedina4637 2 жыл бұрын
Wow.....that's actually a PERFECT way of describing what it feels like to deal with the two types...
@LOKI77able 2 жыл бұрын
If I may ask, was your vulnerable narcissist male or female?
@cat4331 5 жыл бұрын
Your presentation and speaking style is so ORGANISED I have autism and this is so clear I wish teachers and professors I had would talk like this
@skyesprik4772 4 жыл бұрын
Wonderful observation. After you pointed it out I agree.
@hopesprings4967 4 жыл бұрын
Marilyn Marcelli Good Lord, that construct is so outdated and thoroughly debunked.
@elizabethfraser2996 3 жыл бұрын
Also they need to teach about healthy relationships versus unhealthy relationships in middle school health classes. Think how much pain could be avoided ! REPLY IF YOU AGREE !
@RosMyster 3 жыл бұрын
I am not autistic but stupid for sure and I have understood everythink you said, thanks!!
@RosMyster 3 жыл бұрын
@Mizorovich Prahaschkapalan Interesting, do you think Trumph's son will get autism if he would take vaccine and eating broccoli every day for two weeks inside an incubator?
@sophielove3995 4 жыл бұрын
I just realized I’m a vulnerable narcissist. I always knew something was wrong with me but this makes clear perfect sense. I need help because I don’t want to hurt the people surrounding me. I want to be a better person for my loved ones and myself.
@moni3634 Жыл бұрын
Oh my dear,you are surely Not a narcisist! Maybe you have some Kind of narcisistic Behaviour because you we're Hurt AS a child,but a narcisist would usually Not say i want to be a better Person for my Loved ones. I live with a vulnerable narcisist for over 30 years and the defence mechanism in those people is Just extreme.a narcisist Puts the blame on you ( too much shame to realize that they have a Problem)❤️
@Brxwn9 Жыл бұрын
@@moni3634 A narcissist with low narcissism (compared to others on the disorder) could do so!
@ggaz683 Жыл бұрын
@@moni3634 Every narcissist is different, just like every neurotypical person is different.
@vladvlog9677 Жыл бұрын
A (Personality) Disorder is a clinical diagnosis that distinguishes it from other disorders; it can’t be ‘a bit of this or that,’ or ‘some or or not enough of certain features.’ To conflate, is to make the initial Disorder meaningless. You either have the Disorder or you don’t; having a sub-clinical diagnosis is also very specific - you have it or you don’t. It’s like something isn’t something until it hits critical mass (and the components needed to reach it take on a life of their own), transforming into a new state, unrecognizable and essentially different to the previous some if its parts. Ross Rosenberg would say this is one of the signs of being heavily Gaslighted and you are beginning to wake up to this realization.
@JohnWayne-86ed Жыл бұрын
@@moni3634 More so *too much of a lack of insight to realize they have a problem, to avoid shame, pain and feelings of worthlessness they had to avoid insight (over time losing their ability), cause insight reveals truths, truths ruptures the fantasy of the false self. Btw... 30 years?! Jeez😬 Are you still with them are you!? I'm in the process of a divorce from a vulnerable narcissist right now... can wait to never hear from her again!😃
@cottonmouthxx7828 5 жыл бұрын
I never want to encounter a vulnerable narcissist ever again. I've had to completely rebuild myself from below the ground back up. They destroy you.
@kathrinjohnson2582 5 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm glad you are rid of them now.
@karagraham9764 5 жыл бұрын
Angelina ATF Congrats on your victory!
@ellierose5208 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, same. Insidious to an unspeakable degree.
@sharpear07 4 жыл бұрын
@No One Nobody This is lack of understanding and assuming all narcissists are malignant. Appreciate you speaking out about this
@littlebird3495 4 жыл бұрын
After 20 years, I’m certain a vulnerable narc is what I had the misfortune of sharing a child with. Used our child as leverage, lied, was often cruel and manipulative, vindictive and managed to do most of this under the radar, flipping frequently from Dr. Jeckel to Mr. Hyde, never knew who you were going to be dealing with. An excruciating ordeal when someone like this is raising your child. They will hold you both hostage. The damage they can do and pain they can inflict cannot be understated imo.
@HomicidalDavid 4 жыл бұрын
Oh my gosh, every vulnerable narcissism trait applies to me!
@MK-Hogan 3 жыл бұрын
I went from a grandiose to a vulnerable and while the grandiose is more blatantly off putting, the vulnerable is more aggravating to deal with for me personally. I have a very direct personality and the constant need for reassurance, coddling, compliments & validation stemming from his insecurity & shame combined a total lack of direct, genuine communication is way too much for me. He is always vulnerable and never vulnerable at the same time so it feels like an endless mind game. Whereas, at least the grandiose narcissist is just directly awful and I can firmly respond to that or draw a clear line on when to walk away. Getting away from a vulnerable narcissist I’ve found to be much more complicated and taxing emotionally.
@xxxfirehuunterxxx 5 жыл бұрын
I fit the covert narcissist to the t. People only notice the narcissism when I get close to them. Abusive family and all, both parents were narcs.
@xxxfirehuunterxxx 5 жыл бұрын
@@RN-gx7wt Nice coyness, but the fact that I'm self awareness enough to notice when I'm lacking empathy in some areas or am indulging in toxic behaviour to re- think cognitively is a superpower on it's own. Almost the entirely of my family have this personality disorder, this is what was 'normal' behaviour. Have some understanding.
@xxxfirehuunterxxx 5 жыл бұрын
@@RN-gx7wt I'm going to need you to re write that with a little more ease. I can't understand a word.
@xxxfirehuunterxxx 5 жыл бұрын
My reply was adressing your comment regarding 'Have a helmet with a warning light on it'. Sure, my behaviour relates closely to what our 'KZfaqr professor' discusses. No need to be insulting and insuniate that this person is a danger. I'm self aware, and know when manipulation and toxic behaviour is being induced. I know when feelings of enviousness are at play and when my behaviour goes in that direction. My biggest area of weakness is control. I have to control everything that happens, or everyone. And when I don't, the world falls apart.
@xxxfirehuunterxxx 5 жыл бұрын
@@RN-gx7wt I still don't understand your point.
@carriefawcett9990 5 жыл бұрын
@@xxxfirehuunterxxx i feel I'm either Borderline ( BPD) or vulnerable narcissist. I am hopeless in relationships, always suspicious, hate it when they perve at other women ( it absolutely crushes me) i don't like being criticised, or have people point something out about me and scrutinise me. I generally feel pessimistic, self-centered, and depressed. It all makes sense now. I stay right away from men now, I'm such hard work in relationships😔don't listen to the shitty replies, i think you're brave coming out and owning it. It helped me.
@hazelbrownn 5 жыл бұрын
It is actually hard to find a Therapist who actually understands Narcissism not least how to work with a survivor of the same, at least in the UK.
@Panbaneesha 5 жыл бұрын
Same in Germany. They mostly concentrate (in my experience) on the understanding of narcissists, but narcissistic abuse is not really a topic.
@nancyayers6355 5 жыл бұрын
hazel brown also I think which type is worse depends on whom they're interacting with. For really hypersensitive people, the aggressive, overt type of narcissist is a living hell on earth because they would have to deal with fits of screaming condemnation liberally sprinkled with soul-shattering insults and put downs. No narcissist at all is the preferred situation for everyone, but especially for the most sensitive among us.
@vladodiamond 3 жыл бұрын
Wow, that seams to be a common issue. UK and Germany. Really this is vey tricky. I wish you all the best.
@gsafadi2 5 жыл бұрын
I had the 2 types in my life, the overt is easy to spot and even in a realionship you kinda fell something is wrong. The covert was the most devastating because it comes in a cloak foi humility and kindness that makes you lower the defenses... The devalue fase came very "covertly" in a way that makes YOU FEEL THE CRAZY ONE. Dont know if its just in my case.
@kathrinjohnson2582 5 жыл бұрын
Yes I agree. The overt seems to either go after you or not.If so and you fight back and they will go way. The covert is just THERE in the way like a toxic black hole that sucks the life out of anyone who is unfortunate enough to end up near it.
@gsafadi2 5 жыл бұрын
@@kathrinjohnson2582 exactly!
@joec1212 5 жыл бұрын
Until you've been ensnared by a covert you have no idea they even exist. Now that I've been through it, there are a few signs. They are like an Avatar!
@elmo319 4 жыл бұрын
You feel crazy because they often gaslight you. I’ve been there so I feel for you, its horrible
@lindseymattson7700 3 жыл бұрын
@@jenj7249 Same here. Worst experience of my life.
@srmillard 5 жыл бұрын
OMG vulnerable narc: resentful, distrustful, insecure, jealous, shameful, hypersensitive, introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious and depressed, fragile sense of self, unforgiving. That was my ex :/ Thought she was a borderline.
@dhdmjs2155 3 жыл бұрын
This is me. I know something is wrong at first i thought it was bpd but I couldn’t completely relate to it, but yep i def think this is me to the T
@32starsandsugar 3 жыл бұрын
and what do we get to call you bud? a victim?
@srmillard 3 жыл бұрын
@@32starsandsugarnah, someone who learned a lesson, and never looked back
@michaelfarar4232 3 жыл бұрын
My mother is a Covert and surely seems BPD.
@Zenfoni Жыл бұрын
@Empath And you picked Empath as your nickname😂😂 Thanks for this confirmation because I'd never buy anyone who calls themselves empaths, toxicity is just everywhere, it can be disguised in all forms. Discernment is the key.
@katieb.9556 5 жыл бұрын
Dr grande, can you make a video on the best treatments and best way for loved ones to deal with people who are vulnerable narcissists?
@janupczak5059 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, please. Please. I have an adult son and I don't know how to help him. He is a vulnerable narcissist, and uses drugs to self medicate. Your analogy of the Enterprise was excellent. I've said for years, my son was like a turtle without a shell. I guess I could've said without a protective shield like the Enterprise. Thank you for your very intelligent insights.
@TwoBassholesandaKaren7107 5 жыл бұрын
Yes. Good question.
@iuliqt 5 жыл бұрын
We need a way to deal with the aggression. I fear that both my parents are covert narcissists. Last year was the first time I heard about this and everything made sense. Would it be a good solution to give them a book on the subject or how could someone address the problem in a non combative way (Especially when everything is regarded as a threat)
@katieb.9556 5 жыл бұрын
iuliqt yes everything is seen as a threat. I believe my ex boyfriend is a vulnerable narcissist. The only odd part about his narcissism is that he seems to have a real fear of me completely leaving him. He will push me away and tell me to leave him alone, or scream and get aggressive, but then do panicked things to keep me from going, similar to a borderline, but not as dramatic. He treats me like I’m a criminal much of the time, and accuses me of having these awful motives like I’m intentionally trying to hurt him. He’s also incredibly manipulative, and he will go from being sweet and loving one day, to paranoid and distant the next. Or he will be sweet when I’m next to him, but as soon as we are apart, he will play mind games acting like he isn’t as attached as he seemed a matter of hours before. It’s crazy-making. And even though we are split now, I know it’s not over. There will be some kind of feeble attempt to half-apologize or pull me back in somehow. The other odd thing quality is the indecisiveness. He always lets me make decisions: where we will go to eat, where we will stay while away, what activity we will do on our days off... I’m assuming that comes from a fear of making a wrong choice. Does that happen with your situation too?
@gsafadi2 5 жыл бұрын
@@katieb.9556 the shift from sweet to agressive IS a form of manipulation . Makes the victim try to please the narc in other to go back to the "golden period". Dont fall for it. The best thing you can do is to go no contact. ;)
@lorizeppelina2286 2 жыл бұрын
I would argue that vulnerable narcissists' shields are SO down that they percieve attacks that aren't there, or perceive benign encounters as attacks. They seem to even enjoy the perceived negative attention as an opportunity to gain attention of their own as a victim. If they actually *want* this to stop, there's hope of recovery, but in the instances I've seen, they want this situation to continue or become more pronounced/frequent.
@Dist0rtion1 4 жыл бұрын
I remember being surrounded by narcissists when I was a child, and I felt like I was the only one who could see through their little pantomimes that they would always fabricate out of either delusion or convenience or both. Because I bravely (brave because I was a mere child) tried to make a stand against them, I was always put on the receiving end of there gas lighting and their false contexts; contexts in which I would be portrayed as a villain who was always in the wrong, and they, in contrast, would be the heroes who were always in the right. To this day I am still struggling with the emotional burden of their deceit; I struggle to want to socialise or go outside, in fact writing this comment kind of makes me nervous as I feel like I'm always being watched and judged as a liar or a deceiver or pathetic or delusional (as that would be my role as the villain in their false contexts/pantomimes). But that is what they do, they know how to project all their negative aspects onto everybody and anybody who dares oppose them. If anybody else has been involved in anything like this just know that you are NOT alone, I hope knowing this takes that heavy burden off your shoulders, that burden of isolation.
@Dist0rtion1 3 жыл бұрын
@@VictoriaWonders What is pd?
@oriusthecentaur8736 3 жыл бұрын
@@VictoriaWonders They said they were a child. Narcissistic parents often both have issues, and they invite people with issues into the child’s life.
@onelove8593 2 жыл бұрын
I feel you, the same thing happened to me
@onelove8593 2 жыл бұрын
@@oriusthecentaur8736 That's correct, narcissists and as you said people with mental and emotional problems tend to be attracted to each other it's like a curse
@rubberduckie5518 2 жыл бұрын
Precarious Misanthropy I hear ya! They'll say something like, "Ignore negative f****. They'll just drag you down and drain your energy!" Without realizing they're the ones being negative and a drain on others! It's astonishing how much self awareness is lacking in grandiose narcissists. They're like idiot brutes. Most people learn to distance themselves from people like that because they know how they are.
@shelchicago8997 5 жыл бұрын
My narcissistic ex said "Something's wrong with me. I ruin everything." When I asked him to elaborate, he refused. So he seems to have some insight but either unable or unwilling to disclose it to me.
@NTraveller 5 жыл бұрын
My wife says "I ruined your life". Proudly :)
@19dulce68 4 жыл бұрын
The ex Said I destroyed the marriage. He is the one who asked me for divorce and I gave him.
@19dulce68 4 жыл бұрын
@@NTraveller HAHAHA
@mrofftopic2802 3 жыл бұрын
@Shel Chicago - Hmm.....That hits close to home.... ME: How long you've been lost? Him: a while now ME: How much exactly? Him: 2 years or so ME: Before that what was your focus? Him: sex, f*cking ME: I didn't know you could make a life plan out of it.... Him: well you can try ME: Ok smart ass. What was your master plan for sex and f*cking? Him: *easy look like I do, workout, stay in shape and the rest not had for me* ME: So...What went wrong? Him: not sure anything went wrong ME: Something must be wrong if you are lost for 2 years, wants to run away, feels out of control ME: What went wrong? ME: are you there? Him (after 20 min): yes here... ME: So you just didn't want to respond... Him: working out... didn't know how to answer ME: With the truth how about that? Him: arrrghgh I found out latter his life spiraled out control and he went bankrupt, lost everything... I didn't care about any of it. I did care that he burned every bridge I've tried to build and when confronted he would simply give his shoulders and say "I'm a jerk, I know it". Just a deflection, not an attempt to own up to anything or change his behavior. One day it clicked: he didn't want to get out of the mud pit he put himself into it, he just wanted to drag me over. Thankfully it was very brief... everything fell apart before it became serious.
@brandons9027 2 жыл бұрын
@@NTraveller yikes. Never had someone say that to me, but i am not sure i could handle accepting people can be like that.
@sianmegginson8110 5 жыл бұрын
I know someone who flips from vulnerable and when that doesn't get him what he wants he becomes grandiose
@birthesdatter8752 4 жыл бұрын
The anger makes the mask slip.
@kynathomas4809 4 жыл бұрын
I know someone like this as well.
@erikkasepiphany2686 4 жыл бұрын
I agree I believe there can be a little bit of both depending on their mood or what they want
@annehynynen8153 3 жыл бұрын
Same here. For me listening to this video was a bit confusing for a while because I could see both forms in a narcissist I used to have in my life! Every single thing! Completely grandiose in person, fragile from the outside point of view. No one knows how damaging this person can be. All kinds of passive aggressive techniques, even apologies etc, went alongside openly violent behavior. He also has traits of an altruistic narcissist. It's like this person went to the "narcissist university" and graduated with multiple degrees! He's very complex and everything in his life revolves around keeping his mood up. He told me that his only goal in life is to be happy! However, he constantly fails in this. And then other people can pay for that. He can appear to be normal enough so that people let him be and many even see him as a pleasant person. Work and such normal things are, however, like a nuisance for him because it hinders him from controlling other people and keeping that sense of false self alive. Scary and pathetic at the same time.
@goddessvibes08 3 жыл бұрын
They're just manipulators. I love to see their mask slip. It is their true form
@kajsajohansson9633 2 жыл бұрын
Vulnerable narcissists fantasies of redemption is a little heartbreaking
@LOKI77able 2 жыл бұрын
Yes and when they do experience moments of heroism and redemption, these are usually short-lived
@octoberskye1049 5 жыл бұрын
Interesting. This would explain why a Vulnerable Narcissist equates jealousy with love or loyalty, even when their partner isn't at all jealous, despite the Narcissist's affairs (which they assume they've successfully hidden). They become insecure when their primary partner simply isn't jealous. Doesn't play into the "need" or "game", it seems. 🐯
@Boobeinstein 3 жыл бұрын
@@poppyflower7873 As a Taurus...did you mean as an idiot?
@camogrrl 3 жыл бұрын
@@poppyflower7873 as a Taurus= as someone who has no cortical thinking skills. As an empath= as someone who appropriates buzzwords to imply I’m emotionally wise and therefore correct
@ai172 4 жыл бұрын
Dr. Grande, thank you for this detailed, unbiased insight into grandiose and covert/vulnerable narcissism. I am married to a pathological vulnerable narcissist for the past 17 years. The mask has fallen off 5 years back and I am in the process of gaining knowledge and therefore healing and working on my exit. You are spot on with the traits of vulnerable narcissism. I do observe the extreme oscillation between grandeur and shame and therefore the inconsistency in happiness and depression. He fluctuates between statements like" I am not that smart afterall" and "Do you even know how smart I am?" !! " I don't know why, but I feel so sad and useless" to " If this is not happiness, I don't know what else is!" As an observer, I feel that he does realise that something is wrong, but doesnt know why. He is always in the victim mode and feels righteously so! Thank you once again Dr. G for your valuable time and knowledge.
@chcknpie04 3 жыл бұрын
TIL that my narcissism stems from failures of self improvement, but that doesn’t mean I can’t change or improve. Thanks Dr. Todd.
@anonymousidentity4902 22 күн бұрын
same here - it's the result of years and years of unresolved toxic thinking patterns and lack of self-awareness. how are you now?
@Alan-zj5fz 5 жыл бұрын
Vulnerable is definitely brought on by traumas starting in infancy and childhood ongoing throughout life.Then being retramatized by seeing ones own children go through the same things .It is a living hell.
@gsafadi2 5 жыл бұрын
Dr.Grande, plz make one about the subtypes of OCPD. Really rare information about that on youtube. Thx!
@matthewdowling3866 4 жыл бұрын
From my own experience, Pathological & Malignant Narcissists can display (in varying degrees) both Grandiose and Vulnerable traits. Although the true Vulnerable Narcissist wishes (but struggles) to reach the dizzying heights of the Grandiose! The poor VN wants the World to recognise them for their formidable selves, while the Grandiose 'KNOWS' that the World sees how wonderful they are! Give me a Grandiose anyday, against a Vulnerable. You can see a Grandiose coming like a herd of Elephants, but the Vulnerable will be inside your mind, and poisoning your body, before you know anything about it.
@katieb.9556 5 жыл бұрын
YOU HEARD MY PRAYERS! Thank you! 😂
@ella17734 3 жыл бұрын
Grandiose narcissism describes my ex husband exactly. Wish I knew this when I was younger. It could have saved me and my children a lot of trauma.
@runningsrage5895 4 жыл бұрын
I have to deal with both my covert mom and grandiose dad until i move out. Thanks for this video. The way you say everything is really nice and informative. :)
@TheseFourWalls 5 жыл бұрын
Love the Star Trek analogy! 😊 As usual, great video.
@lvb2986 4 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr. Grande, I just want to thank you for these videos. Having always felt that something elusive is wrong with myself, I feel I finally have the answer. It's an extremely helpful step in the journey of recovery and self improvement. I also want to thank you for the understanding, unbiased angle. There seems to be a lot of vitriol out there (understandable given that there's a lot of pain from the abuse, of which I've felt personally from my father as well), however some recognize the patterns, want to break the cycle, and do not enjoy falling into the mental traps. Having watched other videos on the topic of Vulnerable Narcissism, it's easy to feel discouraged, shameful, and inhuman at times. Thank you
@scottsnyder8691 3 жыл бұрын
You’ve described me very accurately as a vulnerable narcissist. It’s uncanny how closely I associate with your description. It’s like you know me! Thank you for the insight as I work through the healing process.
@ameliel8792 5 жыл бұрын
That was an amazing analogy by the way. You mentioned you dont feel that vulnerable narcissism is very similar to BPD. Can you do a video on the differences/similarities please?
@ellierose5208 5 жыл бұрын
I just don't know many clinicians who are even able to distinguish between these two types of Narcissism. The DSM itself is sorely lacking in its description of NPD and barely gives a nod to the covert traits. Why?! THANK YOU Dr. Grande for putting so much work into exposing and explaining Covert Narcissism in a cogent way through your videos. The world needs to hear this.
@DrGrande 5 жыл бұрын
You are quite welcome!
@willownighthawk9189 5 жыл бұрын
Just got out of a codependent friendship with a woman in an abusive relationship with a vunerable narcissist. I was married to a vunerable narcissist for 18 years and it took me nearly as long to heal. I had to quit the friendship when I finally realized she wouldn't admit her husband was a vunerable narcissist because both her parents had been grandiose narcissis. She couldn't see the stelth of the vunerable narcissist in her husband.
@kerastorm1822 3 жыл бұрын
I fit just about every symptom for vulnerable narcissism 😔😔 i start therapy soon though , I hope something can help. I'm tired of hurting people because of how I feel inside.
@kathrinjohnson2582 5 жыл бұрын
I've had the miss fortune of encountering both types and I have to say at least the grandiose ones can fake pleasantries. The only thing pleasant about vulnerable ones is when they go away and suck the life out of someone else. I can live pretty happily with out either one though.
@JDdr86 3 жыл бұрын
You're too hateful, you need therapy to feel compassion and forgive!
@kathrinjohnson2582 3 жыл бұрын
@@JDdr86 lol passive aggressive much
@iosgaming2824 3 жыл бұрын
Both are able to fake pleasentries and coverts do a better at job at faking pleasentries then overts usually. Both suck life out of people and move on to repeat.
@JDdr86 3 жыл бұрын
@@iosgaming2824 So what do they deserve, huh?
@iosgaming2824 3 жыл бұрын
@@JDdr86 Depends on the narcissist lol, that’s a strange vague question to ask me.
@rohank9292 4 жыл бұрын
There are a number of videos on narcissism by experts and experienced people alike, but this is probably the first one that has broken down the differences between the two types of narcissism in detail. And when you speak about overt and covert narcissism, I can quite literally visualise my overtly narcissistic mother and covertly narcissistic father, and the ways in each deals with jealousy, shame and sadness and neurotism. So, today I learnt that my covert narc father aspires to be as good as my overtly narc mother at her game, but is prevented from it by his bigger than usual sense of shame.
@paper-chasepublications9433 4 жыл бұрын
I like that Star Trek analogy!🖖🏽😎
@elliedoortje 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this clear explanation! My mom is grandiose and I fell in the Freud trap. Eyes wide open. My ex is the vulnerable kind. I knew this deep down from the beginning and yet did not see it for what is was. Just this ‘unaware’ recognition and attraction I guess. It felt familiar so to speak. Jealousy, lying, cheating, attacking, verbal abuse, gaslighting, manipulation, playing childish games, hidden agendas, no empathy etc. He ticks all the boxes! Like my mom, but different. And I feel so stupid for not seeing this at the beginning. They should come with a warning sticker > poison!
@kaycreed9172 Жыл бұрын
And so.....which one are you? "Vulnerable or Grandiose"? I'll guess "Grandiose".
@marvin9860 Жыл бұрын
It might be bpd as well
@thewaywardtrio 4 жыл бұрын
Doctor Grande I feel thankful that I am watching a college level video on the topic. In my opinion you are simply the best and most informed on the topic. Than you.
@TwoBassholesandaKaren7107 5 жыл бұрын
I hope they can change. The one person I know who is of the vulnerable type- and a psychiatrist-said he has no Hope with a "big" H. He is also quite sadistic and has stated how he has enjoyed the manipulation. It is like playing chess or pulling puppet strings to use his words. He knows ahead of time how he believes people will respond. This lends me to believe he is higher on the psychopathy end. At times, he is desperate to change. At least he gave every reason to believe that and it didn't impact me if he did or didn't so I don't think it was manipulation. He is definitely shy and cold and distant. He has committed crimes and ethical violations. He feels there is an OCD component to his behavior on the compulsive end. And that's my question: is there compulsion to Cluster B personality disorders? I saw delusional thinking in this disorder as well. When he has gotten in trouble with his behavior it was for failing take in the reality of his power and control over another individual. Why isn't delusional thinking considered part of the diagnostic criteria?
@kikiy2972 3 жыл бұрын
As a big Star Trek fan, the analogy helped me understand the differences between these two significantly!
@spicyyams9426 5 жыл бұрын
After watching many of your videos, I have come to the realization that I possess many of the traits associated with vulnerable narcissism. How do I bring up concerns about correlations with vulnerable narcissism without the medical practitioner assuming I am self diagnosing? I have my first psychiatric appointment In a few days and am worried about what to say. Enjoy the content very much! Thank you!
@karagraham9764 5 жыл бұрын
Eli Nomad Talk about your symptoms and get their thoughts on that.
@karagraham9764 5 жыл бұрын
Eli Nomad The first psych appointment is usually taking a history and asking you a lot of questions
@willie5958 3 жыл бұрын
Well done on identifying it! These comments are littered with people pointing the finger so it’s refreshing to see a self diagnoses. Best of luck.
@dawnacoxon3111 3 жыл бұрын
Don’t worry about diagnosing or even the diagnosis. Be honest about your patterns of behavior. Good luck and stick to it! Recover is a process and often a long one. But improvement made along the way and one day you will look back to how much you have changed since that first visit 🙏❤️
@GIGIFREELIFE Жыл бұрын
@spicyyams9426 how are you now?
@Szeiker 2 жыл бұрын
I'm diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder, but I think vulnerable narcissisim is what i have.
@noone.7000 2 жыл бұрын
I always felt that something was wrong with me when I was in university/school, I was suffering from social phobia and was very sensitive to criticism and distrust, ... I didn't remember being aggressive but became aggressive when I felt that someone had crossed my limits, and I also didn't trust the people who wanted my friendship is especially when they are from high standards , i feel that they just want to take advantage of me so I cut my relationship with them, i felt different and something was wrong with me. Vulnerable narcissism.
@gadefox 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you! And I like your analogies.👍
@kathrinjohnson2582 5 жыл бұрын
I love star trek analogies! 🖖🖖🖖
@misteryxvi2550 3 жыл бұрын
He gave me his "Friends" and took them from me. They hurt me so much , saying i am not good for him. I loved him. I would have done everything for him. He hurt me and took everything He gave me before i realized He was sick. He told everyone i had Mental health issues. Im glad its over
@jessaabraham 10 ай бұрын
Reading through the comments I feel it’s important for people to know narcissistic characteristics exists in most every living being but disorder not so. We need to distinguish this.
@PlanetDeLaTourette 5 жыл бұрын
In my experience grandiose narcissists are quite vulnerable and vulnerable narcs can flare up in grandiosity. All narcissists show primitive defence mechanisms. They're never grounded in argumentation. Vulnerability is inherent to the condition. The smart ones keep their mouths shut. Experience. But yapping away can be beneficial to them. I sometimes imitate them, for fun. Next thing I've got a date. Or a cult following.
@NTraveller 5 жыл бұрын
Exactly, they move back and forth according to their mood
@walkon4591 3 жыл бұрын
I really still don't understand vulnerable narcissism... It sounds more like low self-esteem...
@potato_powered 5 жыл бұрын
Can you explain the differences between a narcissist and a sociopath? I have known people I suspect are narcissists but they had some empathy. And people who seem to have no empathy with strong narcissism as well. But I have also known someone who seems to have almost no empathy yet they do not exhibit many narcissistic traits except when confronted. Although this person is very petty and self-centered which are some narcissistic characteristics. Even so they seem nice most of the time and their covert traits are difficult for others to see usually. A video on how empathy effects narcissism and in what ways they are linked would also be interesting. And one more request on how different cluster B disorders express themselves on social media sites. Thanks for your very interesting and informative videos as always.
@Cronoo 3 ай бұрын
These discussions always leave me feeling optimistic.
@jesslaar5053 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Dr! This is all starting to make sense! 🙏
@theotherkangaroo 5 жыл бұрын
Fascinating!
@BarkersBits 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for clearing this up!
@HandWarmingRobot13 5 жыл бұрын
I'm currently in therapy for CPTSD and recurrent depression. Currently doing schema therapy with my clinical psychologist and I relate heavily with vulnerable narcissism, at least in certain coping modes (as I have multiple) - especially when it comes to redemption arc fantasies, high levels of shame and internalising anger etc. These all feel very like me during certain modes. It is early days for my treatment and working with schema therapy so we haven't identified all my modes/characters or their patterns/personality traits but I am very glad to be on the path to doing so. Dr Grande - I would like if possible for you to cover more about how often disorders/traits of disorders can overlap in a single individual - I know in my personal experience this is an undeniably true occurrence - but am curious about the literature? Are there perhaps any case studies that would be relevant? How common is this? I am also curious about what factors will predispose an individual to display such varied traits - is it the disassociation factor? Is it the changing of needs/approaches that have worked in a varied environment? Is it related to IQ or cognitive ability to have and use multiple different coping strategies/contain multiple "selves"? These are all theories I have considered and believe it is likely a combination - but I would be incredibly grateful if this was something you discussed in a later video.
@LeonidSpartanKing 3 жыл бұрын
Hi
@kit2564 2 жыл бұрын
I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH PTSD AFTER BEING BULLIED AT WORK - PON TOP OF THAT I HAD BEEN SEEING A NARCISSIST FOR 16 YRS AND DIDNT DARE MENTION MY PTSD BC I NEVER WANTED TO APPEAER WEAK. I WAS MARRIED TO ONE AND IT TOOK 6 MOS FOR ME TO GET MY HEAD ON STRAIGHT SO I COULD WORK. THE COLDNESS AND PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR IS SO INSIDIOUS THAT YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF THE DAMAGE ITS CAUSING. AND YET I FOUND ANOTHER TO LOVE BC OF THE EXCITEMENT AND I LIKE AGGRESSIVE MEN. I WISH I COULD HAVE FOUND A THERAPIST WHO KNEW HOW TO TREAT PTSD. AT MY PACE - WHAT IS .SCHEMA THERAPY AND IS IT HELPING? THE ONLY TOOL I I REMEMBER FINDING WAS THE EYE THING WHICH I DIDNT CONSIDER, -- I WAS VERY ILL. AND ALONE..BC THE NARCISSIST DID NOT WANT TO SEE OR HEAR ABOUT EMOTIONS HE DIDNT WANT TO SEE WEAKNESS OR EMOTIONS HE DIDNT HAVE....THANKS FOR SHARING...
@NethervvoidBuilds 3 жыл бұрын
Great vid, per usual. Love your work.
@FrancesShear 4 жыл бұрын
Helpful way to present the topic. I uderstand now that when someone is practising narcissism for whatever reason like for example after they are told they must or lose their job or worse that is far different than someone with a compulion to practise narcissism in the vulnerable or the grandiose kind of way.
@myartchannel8205 3 жыл бұрын
I've gotten to the point where I hesitate to comment on places, as it seems like a lot of places like to do a whole lot of finger pointing, and not provide a lot of solutions of helping it. One the weird mind screwing things though, is when you're neither ( but maybe neuro-atypical ) is sometimes such grandiose types can have you convinced you're also a narc, whether grandiose or vulnerable. What they used to call Aspergian ( now high functioning autism) has a lot of misunderstandings about the symptoms just on its own.
@lob19 2 жыл бұрын
Great. It seems like I am 50/50 grandiose & vulnerable I must be such a pain in the ass and a treat for my therapist great video, thank You
@jayhill224 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for the info! 🙏🏾
@rejaneoliveira5019 4 жыл бұрын
That was fascinating! I just love watching your videos, I never get tired of listening to what you have to say. Each video you present is like an ocean of information, and thought provoking ideas. Thank you so much for all that you do:)
@lalabits834 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your videos Dr Grande, you've helped more than you'll ever know.
@Psychology299 3 жыл бұрын
I love Dr. Grande he is so smart.
@michaael2393 6 ай бұрын
This was spot on
@Seemashe 4 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video!!!!
@mollyringwerm9224 4 жыл бұрын
My ex husband started out as vulnerable and morphed into grandiose, after he achieved career success. I have him labeled as toxic/malignant with the presence of anti-social traits. It was a hellish decade of my life.
@serendipitous_synchronicity 5 жыл бұрын
As always, food for thought! Thank you Dr Grande. 🐛🐛🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋
@JMigUK 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for your videos Dr Grande, they are both helpful and informative and the Star Trek analogy second to none.
@koreenalaw8644 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for another brilliant video!! I learn so much from you Dr Grande
@arii992 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you Dr. 🍀👏🏽 love your Work 👌🏽👏🏽
@claireclarke9088 5 жыл бұрын
thans Dr Grande,very useful info
@cadoo5591 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much, I never understood the dynamics of narcissism before. I didn't even know there were dynamics!!
@jenniferwills3095 5 жыл бұрын
You should also look at which type is more destructive to others... the grandiose is monstrous, I know that first hand
@farangisehsani592 3 жыл бұрын
Dr. Grande, thank you for what you are doing for us. These informations are life long skills. Love u from Armenia ❤
@juancana457 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks, you've cleared up quite a bit. Many of these symptoms have persisted, yet, diminished slightly, when my daily 'bitter pill' of reality is washed down with insight from therapy.
@nashawnwilliams8660 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video and all of then about narcissism. It has helped me understand where I was in my head. I believed it was me. Again thank you.
@annoyedgrunt7044 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you doctor. I appreciate how you presented this from a neutral standpoint and it gave me hope that I can change for the better, for myself and for my loved ones. Bless you.
@camogrrl 3 жыл бұрын
“Vulnerable narcissism is poor self deception and grandiose is effective self deception” 11:06
@jessicavessica222 3 жыл бұрын
bless you, dr. grande 🥰
@ThaTruFily 3 жыл бұрын
Soothing voice on this one 👌🏻🤟🏻
@LuvGodLuvPpl 5 жыл бұрын
Interesting
@alanwallace4413 3 жыл бұрын
Grandiose is more irritating moment-to-moment. Vulnerable is more insidious.
@ZYX84 Жыл бұрын
🪁 Not only did I find your description spot on clinically, the analogies also are most helpful.🌺🌸🌺 I appreciate you very much Dr. Grand🌵e ,. Thank you. 🪁
@greenteasip 7 ай бұрын
Yeah, I’ve met a therapist like that. He made me doubt I was seeing the situation objectively. I knew mid the 1st consultation that he was a bad therapist (in my opinion he’s more than that). He was the only therapist ever to behave this way (before him, I met 5 therapists, including 2 great ones). He was definitely a narc... he made me feel worse than my abusive partner during one meeting. Without going into detail his words to me after I said I suffer depression and I’ve been previously diagnosed ‘You aren’t depressed. Depressed person wouldn’t be able to tie a shoe. I’ve been struggling with depression for 8 years myself. I know how it is’ LOL!!!
@pwyman5540 2 жыл бұрын
OMG Dr. G, love that Startrek analogy. I loved captain Kirk and the tribbles.
@katarinatomic6085 5 жыл бұрын
Thank You for spreading the word of science, Dr. Grande. I've learned so much from your videos and I love Your analogies. I am not a frequent KZfaq user when it comes to scientific themes, but Your work is just incredible: objective, scientifically supported, and Your explanations are suitable for all the listeners.
@DrGrande 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much :)
@meggallucci5300 3 жыл бұрын
I have never heard about the difference in fantasies. Interesting.
@TyrRavensohn 5 жыл бұрын
I appreciate the way you do not engage in "psychospeak" where someone is just more confused after your delivery. You are clear and concise. How does someone get a topic question to you? Thank you in advance.
@laurahoag-diaz.nlpcoach9636 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting….. thank you
@ananimity7332 5 жыл бұрын
New Sub! I'm happy I found this channel. It's nice to find someone who is truly informative.
@DrGrande 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much :)
@ananimity7332 5 жыл бұрын
@@DrGrande Thank you :)
@amandastein6247 3 жыл бұрын
Wow super insightful, thank you. My ex husband is a vulnerable narcissist.
@acushlanarayanan9863 23 күн бұрын
Fascinating video! Particularly the topic of vulnerable narcissism. I'm also very interested in the question of how a vulnerable narcissist might change, and what sort of changes are observed in practice. Looking forward to exploring this further via this playlist. Thanks for the video.
@claudiavieira6812 4 жыл бұрын
Hello and many thanks for all your videos. They've been a good help to understand what's around me for a long time. Could I suggest some more information on how to deal , in a positive way, with the ups and downs of the sadness and the unreal sensation of rejection ? Thanks for your videos Dr. Grande 🙋🏻
@anjachan 4 жыл бұрын
ashamed but doesn't feel guilty ... ok ... sadly I don't see a chance anymore for a person i know to change ... He probably gives ALL the guilt so someone else and wants to think it's the truth.
@wolfjulia7699 2 жыл бұрын
Dealt with a lot of childhood abuse from a mostly grandiose narcissist mother and now my sister is suffering with what is apparent vulnerable narcissism. Watching these has helped me to monitor my own narcissistic behaviors and be better, I’m hoping my sister does have a good chance of change. My mother is very far gone but hearing there’s a chance for my sister is hopeful news. Sorry for the lengthy comment but these videos are very helpful
@peachrenard2320 Жыл бұрын
I do wish the best for your sister's recovery.
@robhalfordblog 4 жыл бұрын
As he listed all the traits of vulnerable, including the fantasy, I felt so called out. IDK if its just my depression, anxiety, autism, and ptsd mixed together, but I wouldn't be surprised if I had vulnerable narcissism. I certainly have all the traits, even if they aren't caused directly by a personality disorder.
@Beanybag2 2 жыл бұрын
Almost certainly. But it's okay. With awareness comes massive improvement.
@marymary5494 5 жыл бұрын
Thank you
@jenniferwills3095 5 жыл бұрын
My ex husband is the biggest narcissist in the world. He did major damage to our family and continues a path of destruction to any female who has the misfortune of coupling with him. He was and continues to be cruel to his daughters who have blocked his cell number and will not see him anymore. He harasses them on social media to this day
@danielsuarez8210 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Dr. Grande, are you able to make a video explaining narcissism and borderline behavior amongst those in treatment for addictions? Thank you for all of your insight.
@alexbaird2670 Жыл бұрын
My MIL is a vulnerable narcissist. They are like acid slowly eroding your body and soul; and take pride in the damage they do; only to inflict more. My husband is on the spectrum, and is in some ways oblivious to her warped behaviour; but has in other ways been profoundly disabled by it. It has meant he hasn't progressed as well in his career (total lack of self confidence), nor in life in general (she clipped his wings and questioned everything he ever thought of doing). She kept him prisoner, so that he would become her obedient servant after his father/her husband died. Every 3 months or so she tries to hoover him back (we went NC at the start of the pandemic), always by handwritten letters, as thankfully he blocked her on email because she would send him vile "sh** sandwich" abusive emails. And if you've watched the movie "Dr Sleep", that's all about narcissists (emotional vampires).
@julialauria90 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much. I believe I am a vulnerable narcisist with grandiose moments. I am daughter of abusive (vulnerable) narcisistic mother (permissive parenting style) and grandiose narcisistic father. I feel a lot of shame and guilt, and I don't understand why this is not related to narcisism, it seems more like psychopathy. Or I'm not narcisistic lol. I have paranoid personality and esquizofrenia. I believe in my recovery, my parents and every narcisism thru learning to let things go, in a general sense, that works for eveeybody. And therapy and medicines of course.
@user-we8ek7ku7d 4 ай бұрын
In another video I was sure you said there was comorbidity with borderline personality disorder because of the unstable self, rejection and abandonment sensitivity, meaning and purpose is found through their partners.
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