For someone so familiar with winches you missed some key pieces of information. For the winch to twist there had to be flex in the mounting plate on the bumper. I know of no recovery winch including Warn that can survive flex in the mounting plate. Didn't you fry a Warn in the same video? You were trying to pull an Aspen stump which you admitted to being unfamiliar with. Anchored a 9,000lb truck with a tractor which together exceeds the load ratings of both winches you broke. For all intents and purposes you connected two immovable objects to each end and pushed both winches to failure. Difference between the two was the Harbor Frieght was strong enough to find the weak point in that bumper causing it to flex. It doesn't take much flex to snap those die cast covers. Sorry but this looks more like a user error/too weak of a mount issue rather than a winch failure to me.

What does “Manly Manners” have to say about a man who refuses to accept responsibility when he’s wrong? Clearly both winches were abused to the point of failure in a task neither could, or was meant to accomplish.

This is probably the best advertisement for harbor freight. It performed so well that he had to abuse it beyond absurdity to prove his bias

First off I have been in felling trees and removing stumps for over 30 years. Being that he was been with the forestry service, you would think he would know the dynamics of a stump. Look at the size of the stump. The root system is substantial. To think any normal winch would pull that out, even with a snatch block, is absolutely insane. Yes the winch failed, but the true failure here was Wranglestar. The misuse and abuse of this winch is the true failure. There are so many who use these winches with out a failure like this. He purposefully put that winch in a position to fail. To say he isn't hating on Harbor Freight is a joke, that's all I hear. Listen to his words, he is prejudice against HF from the get go, even tho he wants his viewers to think otherwise. I have read the comments and I want to see a him put one of his Warn winch's on that stump and do a continuous pull till it dies.

In the name of transparency, I think we need to see a video of a warn pulling out an aspen stump. Bashing an affordable option because it didn't pull three times the max weight seems to have struck your ego. When the warn shuts off to prevent the same thing from happening, I'll take your side.

Theres a reason we can use trees as anchor points to help us winch out of a ditch. It's the same reason both winches failed in the last video. Just my 2 cents.

"I'm not and engineer." The only fact in this entire video.

Sorry, Matt's off-road, Cassey Ladelle FAB Rats and others have used this winch in way more severe and realistic situations without failure, this is operator error, based on your video I just went and bought one

If memory serves, a Warn winch was smoked in the same video...

No winch this size will remove an aspen stump..and typically people who use this type of equipment have the common sense to know that

Give me a break. This isn't the winches fault this is an installation fault. You pushed things far passed design limits. Your bumper flexed and put loads on the winch in ways it's not meant to be loaded. Your video quality has took a drastic dive.

I mean honestly, it's videos like this... The reason why I take alot of what you say, the positions you hold and the products you push with a grain of salt. I used to think you were a solid source of info but every other video just reinforces that you're at all the expert at things you think or sale yourself to be. This video wasn't fair to Harbor Freight and chock full of so many plot-holes. You knew damn well that winch (any winch of that rating) would find this job impossible. "No I didn't. No I didn't." Yes you did, Cody. Yes you did.

Integrity starts with being honest with yourself. You sure you want to blame the winch?

Time for an apples to apples, Warn vs Apex winch competition.

As an engineer I'm really proud of the comment section here. After watching the video and disagreeing with it, I was nervous to move over to the comment section and potentially see people agree and laugh/bash at the "poor quality" winch. I really wish KZfaq enables the Dislike button again. It would put this video in its rightful place with its misinformation.

I was on the fence about the Apex 12k winch, but this video has convinced me that it'll do the job if used properly. It's probably worth the $600 compared to an $1800 Warn. If I need to pull stumps, I'll use my backhoe to break up the ground, then cut up the roots before I hook up the winch and start pulling orthogonal to the stump.

It looks like to me, the Winch mount failed letting the winch body twist causing the housing to break apart. If that's the case, it is the fault of the bumper / winch mount that caused the failure...

Replace it with the warn and try pulling another stump. I'm willing to bet it fails also.

I once tried to move a building with my truck using a shoestring, the shoestring broke, must be that the shoestring was junk and not that a virtually immovable object was part of the equation.

After watching channels such as Matt’s Off-road Recovery and Fab Rats plus several more using these winches daily with no problems I don’t believe the winch was the problem.

I'm still gonna go with Operator Error. I don't care what someone has done to whatever with any winch, they're not meant for trying to pull stumps. Especially when you don't bother to dig them first.

I know what he means. I bought a banana and imagine how unhappy I was to find it wouldn’t drive a nail in a block of wood. Unbelievable 🤦🏻‍♂️

I fallow Matt's of road recovery and Fab rats on KZfaq and they both use these badland winches so I bought one have put it through hell and they hold up just fine.

After watching this video, I am super impressed with the badlands winch and will be buying one in the future

honestly if you're winching 20,000+ lbs with a 12,000lb winch on a $90k truck, whatever happens is your fault

I have used Warn winches the biggest they got and I have broken them also used winches on trucks better specially-designed for oilfield operation and broken them and I've also used winches on recovery trucks for the towing industry and have broken them also the problem is Cody you didn't do no prep work on that stump to remove it from the ground and being a man that lives in the woods you should have knew better I've seen recovery lines that they use in the logging industry braking bringing logs up from bottom to landings if a person from central USA can see u failed to do prep work first dont blaim the equipment when it fails it all falls on u the operator not the equipment

I'm an engineer. I am not seeing where the critical failure occurred. A broken piece of a housing is not a critical failure. Does it still work? Can we see how it was mounted? Maybe that was contributed to the housing crack. Also, did you exceed the maximum load? All important questions. The plastic piece that was covering the copper should be made of a non-combustible flexible material. Which is an oversight on the part of the Badland Apex engineering team.

Hmmm this may not be the whole story. Cody could you spend some time looking at the new bumper and show us the current condition of the mounting location of the winch showing if the plate is still flat/true. It looks like the winch is critically dependent on the durability of the mounting plate and if that mounting plate twists then the winch will twist and break like we see here. Seems like the only way for a winch manufacturer to not be dependent on the mounting plate is to incorporate one in the design, meaning that the open area under that spool would be one solid piece and the winch design is clearly three pieces as you have shown. Not an expert here and I can only see what you have shown us in the footage.

To be fair, aspen stumps are all interconnected with the other aspen stumps/roots/trees....so that was a crazy tug

I don't get it. The Warn failed in the same video, how can he say he won't use a HF winch and is going back to Warn when it also failed. The Warn was only a 9,000 lb winch, sure, but he said he might have fried the relays. They both would have left you stranded, stranded from pulling your tank out of the ditch.

I fully believe this winch held up its end of the bargain. I love that you tested it beyond its limits! The fact that it literally self destructed before it quit is impressive. Your videos on this tool have convinced me to get one. Thanks for all you do. I realize this is 2 years after you posted this content, but it's still worth the comment.

What is the make and model of the mounting plate that you used? I suspect that the mounting plate twisted resulting in the fail.

For someone who claims to be so very knowledgeable about forestry, you’d think you’d have the foresight to atleast partially dig up one of the most heavily rooted trees in the world.

I always thought that a winch was a recovery tool to get your vehicle or another vehicle unstuck from mud and such or to maybe move an “unanchored”object closer to your vehicle. To expect any winch to pull an unprepared stump is ludicrous. I think most thinking people would take one of those expensive tractors and at least dig around the stump to break up the root system a little. To blame a piece of equipment for failing to do something that it wasn’t designed for makes no sense. Testing a Warne winch against a Harbor Frieght winch is pointless. This is the same as people using a long cheater bar (pipe) on a wrench and then wondering why the wrench broke and then top it offf by blaming the wrench for breaking. Just like a lot of things now days, people don’t want to own up to their mistakes. Just blame someone or something else for the problem.

I saw another video that the winch broke in the same way. It was caused by the mounting plate flexing. Could that have been the cause?

Back in the day, most heavy duty Warn 12k+ winches where recommended to be mounted 'foot forward', similar to how the 8274 was mounted. I think that was a good practice.

When you did the zoom in at 0:40 there is clearly movement withing the bumper itself as the winch popped and the bumper snapped back into place. I'd say that your aluminum mounting plate, or bumper as a whole, flexed a little too much. Can't really blame the winch for that one.

Cody, engineer here, not related to the winch business though... I'd really love to see a bit more detail about that winch failure. You showed a cracked top and side cover, but those can't be load-bearing; way too flimsy. Which load-bearing part snapped, actually? The fasteners? The frame of the winch? It's still a mystery to me what happened there but as a shot in the dark, I'd guess the whole winch got ripped out of the anchor points and smashed into your bar, shattering the winch's housing. Problem of the winch or the mount? Also, to that plastic cover: Yeah, those fins are a bit strange; probably a way to avoid debris accumulating across the rails. However do note that quite a few plastic materials are flame inhibiting (PVC is a good candidate, fire fighters typically know this and it's noxious properties ;-) ). Try to light it _outdoors_ and see if it catches or self-extinguishes...

HF did really up their game with the Ikon line and the welding units. Other stuff is iffy but their idea of offer near professional grade and weekend homeowner tools in one shop is a money saver for me.

I'm getting ready to install one of these, and your video has given me some ideas about mounting the winch. I am considering doubling the thickness of the winch plate by sandwiching two plates together. I think your Buck Stop bumper may have allowed too much flex.

Opinions are like....... that said, when I saw the winching video, I was thinking to myself, surely he couldn’t possibly expect a winch to pull a stump like that without any prep work done to the ground around it at all? Well, I was wrong. I don’t think a winch should be used like that, ever, that being said, I completely agree with the statement that the winch should shut itself off before twisting and breaking like that for sure. Easy fix for the manufacturer. Wish you would have had a scale on the line to measure how much force was on that winch line, I would expect it was grossly exceeding the rating of the winch in that situation.

Cody, I’ve been watching for a long time and respect your opinion on most things but I think you may be missing the mark on this one. As others have said that tree wasn’t coming out with any winch because of the root system. And with a failure like that I would look at the mounting strategy of the winch more than the winch itself. I believe it may be possible that the winch was operating within its normal limits but because the truck was so rigid because of its size and the tines on the tractor being dug in coupled with the mechanical advantage of the winch rope and snatch block you may have actually had a failure of the bumper. I believe with it being aluminum it may have flexed resulting in the situation you find yourself in now. I have a badlands winch and while I definitely do not have the experience you do with winching this sort of failure in my opinion cannot he fully attributed to the winch. Just food for thought. Have a great day.

I believe the mounting plate flexed or bent can we get a picture of that?

We used to pull a lot of stumps on the farm. We never risked pulling a stump straight out of the ground because of the danger involved. We would dig around that stump, chop all the roots we possibly could, save the tap root, and then we'd use a large tractor with a chain, and no jerking, and it would usually come. I'm not being disrespectful, but this setup for pulling your stump with the winch, looks like a good opportunity for some hardware through the windshield.

I think there is a huge difference in the amount of force needed to pull a car out of the ditch then it would be to pull a green stump with a root system the size of a small car.

Another KZfaqr had a similar failure. Their conclusion was that the mount was not sufficiently rigid. This design does require a rigid base to keep from twisting. I would check the mount on the truck, for evidence of deflection.

"Let's pull it apart and see what happened" But you didn't do that. I still don't know how it failed. The housing means next to nothing. Did the actual motor fry? Does it still work? I mean the housing broke and pushed the plastic part into contact with the power which made it melt but that isn't the failure either. I'm really curious if that winch still works?

I herd what you said. I just saw it not doing what you said. No stuck trucks. No people stuck on cliffs. For a second, I thought you would use a tractor to get that trunk out. I know I would.. I have done it too... I just saw it in action by a group of people that tow for a living. Thanks Matt's Offroad Recovery. They are the best. Equipment being used correctly. Pushing it to the limit. I'm off to get that very same one.

I generally like your videos but I watched the video of you pulling the stump and you did start out with a Warn Winch and it failed before you brought out the bigger truck and this Badland winch. You even said that the wheel you used as a fulcrum was likely to crack and fail because of the pressure and did it anyway. You staked down your tractor, chained behind your 9klb Ford and then blame the winch for pulling past it's max capacity on a stump that was clearly rooted. This isn't a winch failure, this is a process failure because you should have used that backhoe first to dig out around that stump. This is pretty disingenuous since you didn't mention about the Warn failing first.

I don't think pulling a tree stump that size with any kind of winch could work either way.. the roots of a tree are as big as the crown, and the stump itself was thick too

I'm a 4x4 geek so I've used my share of winches in a less then ideal situation. What I will say is that I agree with some of the comments I'm reading and also with Cody. the mount is absolutely the issue as to why the winch failed almost always is a bad mount but where I agree with Cody on is the cover for the electrical should not be plastic that is very true the winch don't deserve a bad review for a failure because any winch would have failed in that application it was under a huge load and a mount snapped causing a torque in the casing but a fire hazard can't be left under your truck so I don't know what else to say

I am going to agree with others. The winch mount failed. The way the winch moved in the bumper, either the mounting bolts broke (head snapped or bolt just snapped), or the mount failed all together. When that snapped, it allowed the frame of the winch to flex. Going to go on operator or installer error, not the winch. Cody, what did you see when you pulled the winch out of the bumper? What let go?

Hopefully you have a 12k Warn on order and will be attempting to pull the stump with it to. I know the other Warn was a 10k but will a 12k really make a difference?

You tried to pull the stump with a 10000 lbs winch that was trippled and it didn‘t work. Then you used the harbor freight 12000lbs winch and doubled it. How should this have worked?

Love your channel. That said, in winching or recovery rigging is the safety factor if the cable would have failed someone could have been hurt or killed. Head to head warn vs bad lands

I was looking forward to you taking it apart especially with you building winches early on. What caused it to flex?

Sounds like THIS is a job for Project Farm

Would like to see an attempt of the same test with a warn...

I'm looking forward to your negative review video, of the aftermarket bumper on your truck. Because that is what caused the winch to fail. I am really impressed with what that winch was able to pull, before your weak mounting point failed.

When he says I'm not a engineer but a multi million dollar corporation at the end of the video it really shows his character

I think your professional home owner status came into play on this one. There was no way that stump was coming out without digging At the root base to release some of the hold Any winch used in the way you were mis using it would have broke

Cant wait to see the warn pull out some aspen stumps!

I will say I've been using the non apex 12,000lb harbor freight winch for nearly two years and switched it over to synthetic cable. I have had no issues with it four wheeling. I go out at least every two weeks and try to find all the hardest trails at wherever I'm going. I will say my synthetic able also got flattened out like that but I've used that winch probably 20 times in the last year alone without a snatch block and its never had any issues pulling me or someone else out of a situation

How did it twist? Bad mount?

Every guy I’ve talked to on the trails swear by their Badland winches. They use and abuse them with no issues. Seems more like a misuse or a fluke in this one. It’d be interesting to test a new one on a Dynamometer and test it against a Warn.

given the nature of that failure, i would say it twisted. check the mount on the bumper to see if it flexed.

Kudos to the winch line, it out lasted the frame of the Winch. Looks like the HF has a cast aluminum frame, and the warns I thought had steel frames. Correct me if I’m wrong. If the winch is still pulling, how would any sensing technology prevent the frame from breaking? I had a Warn VR12 for years and multiple times stalled it while using a snatch block pulling junk cars up a hill. I just picked up an Apex for my rock buggy, hope it holds up.

I think I'm on the side of most of the people in the comments here Cody... Your Warn failed in the same video, the stump was not a fair use for this winch, and the mount seems to have failed... Could you at least give the badlands another try? It sounds like Harbor Freight is willing to work with you and you just want to cause drama and blame someone else for your failure.

I love your content and reviews on tools Cody, but I thought this one was quite harsh on harbor freight. If I’m honest with you I don’t think a warn winch would be able to pull out that aspen stump either. After working for a tree surgeon I know that the root bowl is just as big as the crown of the tree so I think it was unfair to expect a winch to pull out a stump of that size especially without any work on the ground to free things up a bit. Besides, you highlighted the point that winches are for towing things or pulling yourself out of a sticky situation, so they were clearly designed to use the tree as an anchor instead of pulling it out! But if you are so confident in warn winches then it’s only fair that you put one up to the same test without any mercy. Love your vids and keep up the good content!

The winch DID NOT FAIL! The winch mount failed. If it was on a sufficiently rigid mount it would not have twisted.

how was it mounted? was it mounted with bolts facing the ground or out to the front, if they were facing down that could have contributed to the failure. i have always been told 2000 and up should be mounted with the feet to the front. something to do with pulling force but not sure if this winch is able to do that

so without the mounting bolt holes being broken im curious to see what allowed one side of it to spin? did the mounting bolts shear? were they tight? was the bumper so soft it bent allowing the mounting bolts to move?

The mounting plate is vital to the torsion resistance of most winches. I would guess that it was sufficiently stout, but it could be suspect in this particular failure, maybe?

For warn to be this "gold standard" and I would generally agree, after all these years why haven't they been able to improve the IPx rating without compromising thermal venting? Accepting a "common failure" is the same across the board no matter if it's a twist in the case, or a solenoid failure from corrosion. Just because one guy can overcome a solenoid failure in the field doesn't mean every guy can. It's no less of a problem than as described in this video. You need to set your feelings aside when trying to make an "honest" video about a products weak points, and don't put another product on a pedestal as the "gold standard" that has weak points of its own. You should've left out the "I'll stick with warn" and just given an honest autopsy of the winch. This turned into nothing more than a warn advertisement.

I have the xcr 12000 lb winch from harbor freight 2 of them and I have used them pretty hard with steel cable and no issues? Ones on my car hauler trailer and the other on my k5 off road rig no issues yet

Any chance you see any kind of part numbers on the relays or motor? I am wondering if that is rated at 24v and thats why it turns so slowly, I actually want to use it on my humvee.

Not trying to be a know-it-all, but aspen trees have an interlinking root system, which would make them hard to pull out without any prep done to the ground or the roots first, so it might be a tiny bit unfair to judge it by that standard

Curious if the winch was being used within manufacturers specifications. While I believe that any quality tool should be able to exceed it, once you are outside of the envelope, who’s fault is it for failure? Manufacturer or operator?

The apex winch is still a tried and true winch. It broke under misuse and poor mounting. That big fancy bumper was the failure point. That plastic cover over the power leads is there for a reason. If you put metal there and then did what you did then you would have a bit bigger of an issue on your hands. Good on HF for making it right, but I don't think it was a failure on there part. This was user error. If you want to prove all of us wrong. Have a same spec warn try. I bet it will fail. Or rip your bumper the rest of the way off.

I agree the mount was not strong enough and led to the breakage. The other issue is - would the plastic have caught fire? I work for a company that builds AC powered devices. When we injection mold wire enclosure boxes, we have to use an FR (fire rated), self extinguishing plastic to meet the UL standard. He is jumping to conclusions unless he has investigated it beyond what he is saying in the video.

I am very impressed with the winch, more so now. It would recover a Super Duty and a large tractor at the same time if the front bucket had not been down to provide more anchor. At one point it was recovering both. Impressive winch to me.

I'm going to go out on a limb a bit here and call this a WINCH BUMPER FAILURE. Winches of this design REGARDLESS of manufacture TOTALLY rely on the bumper to stop the two ends from counter-rotating... which I'm nearly 100% certain was the cause of this failure. I'd wager this is a case of the winch being too powerful for the bumper.

Was the winch properly secured. It only bolts on to a plate. I have seen similar problems that were caused by improper mounting. Granted there should be a thermal overload but wasn't the problem root cause do to deflection centered between mounting location.

I used a chainsaw to cut a birthday cake. It ruined the cake. That saw was an epic fail and i got rid of it.

Was there any damage to where it was mounted causing the winch to flex to the point of failure?

You still haven't shown what failed... Did you have the bolts tight to prevent distortion? Did your bumper flex? I bet it still works...

Wondering if the relay box will work with a want winch, my warn quit working due to the relay box (known issue), wondering if that relay box from the badlands be a better fit

I'm curious how much force was needed to remove that stump? I would wager the Warn would have failed in the same way.

I believe you've asked way more of that winch than what it was designed to do. I'll bet if you pulled the same stunt with a Warn you would have had similar results. What you did there is the same as using a 3/8 drive ratchet to break loose a rusted 5/8 bolt and then blame the ratchet when it fails.

I’m a minute into this little video and i can tell you what happened, a guy that should know a lot about trees didn’t know what he was doing trying to uproot an aspen stump and tore up a winch he got for free and is now making a video bashing said winch when it was really user error.

Matt's off-road recovery uses these winches all the time and I've never heard of them exploding on them

I’d be quite curious to see all the mounting components before dismissing this product.

Natures stumps are stronger than mans machinery.

I’m looking forward to the “I WAS WRONG” caption on the upcoming video 🤣🤣

Warn recommends you buy their mounting plates for their Zeon winches which have a similar frame housing. I'm sure a warn would fail in the same fashion. With that being said, I understand the plastic melting issue and would probably modify the winch to prevent that in the future and would probably remove covers on any brand winch to see if it could have a similar issue. Maybe use heavy wire instead. Furthermore, I prefer the receiver mount winch setup that Wranglerstar had on his old Ford. Burying the winch behind a bumper may look nice but decreases available airflow for cooling and adds heat from the radiator. Btw. It seems the melting is the only real issue I could see. Does the winch still function or is there frame/ structural damage?

didn't the apex come with a control pack relocation kit? I know that the no winch would survive the flexing of the attachment plate like that. But how different would it of been with a relocated control pack (the plastic which broke because it was in contact with the winch during flex)?

Cody, I respect you and have learned so much from you, but I don't think you made a fair evaluation of what actually went wrong in that situation.

I don't understand how the main body of the winch twisted if the mounting plate in the bumper didn't twist. I'd like to see that bumper to prove that it wasn't the culprit. If the mounting points on the winch didn't break, how was the rest of it able to twist? Science

I have had the original badlands wench 12k with steel cable around 10 years and was thinking about upgrading but thanks to your video I'll stay with my oldy but goody I have done amazing things with it through all the years it has always worked the cable is shorter but still the original but it was around $300 back then

also on top of that what did you have for a mounting plate ? for it to flex like that there had to be flex in the mounting plate no winch will live threw flex like that.