Should’ve called me boys, this is easy. Palm in for close range, palm down for further out.

This dude is turning into one of my favorite guests.

Mike's becoming a professional, always being conscious of the framing and making sure to stay opened up to the camera. I noticed several quick shifts in position, almost like it has become instinctual.

I like IcyMike's cerebral approach to it, that the angle changes depending on the range he's working at. I've never heard it vocalized like that, and to me based on my experience, makes perfect sense. Good stuff.

I'm a proponent of the range-based argument, but the body proportions of each person also coming into play is reasonable as well. The long range palm out hook I actually refer to as an Inward Back Fist Strike / Deung Jumeok An Chigi rather than a Hook Punch / Dollyeo Jireugi because I'm a giant TKD nerd. Either way I love these kinds of videos. Awesome!

[I learned my leaping left hook from Roy Jones Jr. He actually did a video teaching the hook with the thumb up, for power, speed, and for the capacity to throw multiple hooks (which he was the king of). I used the palm down for short range hooks. I also used sort of an overhand hook with palm down and thumb almost down, too, hitting with those first 2 knuckles (just like you fellas show in the video lol). Weird I never thought about it until now lol.]

3:05 IIRC, Gabriel Varga did a video on this a while ago and came to the same exact conclusion: The range dictates which way you turn to keep your knuckles on target. Makes sense to me, too.

Palm down hurts my shoulder at close ranges. But I almost always throw my hooks at a palm in range for me. Even if they are out of range I'll move in if the hook is there just to get into palm in range

I'm more of a fan of the open hand slap. Winning isn't enough. We must send a message.

Wait you guys have hands?

Turning the wrist inward thumb 45 degrees in a hook (more common in Muay Thai actually adds another benefit I never hear people talk about. It protects the shoulder from injury. I always did the hook like the bald white guy. I believe it is more powerful but can cause problems even thrown correctly. I’ve been using the Muay Thai style hook for a while now bout 4 years now. The first 6 months was awkward but eventually started working good and also keeps your elbow high to avoid counter punches. It doesn’t seem powerful but it is powerful.

Hey Icy Mike, remember when you killed Seth w a grenade? I just rewatched that video. You said you don't like the baton however you discussed it as an implement to strike with. It is also a lever that allows you to grapple (compared to a longer stick); sweeps, locks, and control. I'm no authority tho. The long hook saved my ass when two guys came into my home. I'm about your size I think. I stuffed one guy w a long hook as he double jabbed. I caught him in the temple with the tiniest surface of my big knuckle. If I was a boxer I would have followed up, but I watched him react. He went head first into a wall on wobbly legs. Then he got his arms in front of him and I pushed him out the door. (It's a narrow hallway and he was about 6 inches taller) Awesome channel🥊💥, cheers 🇨🇦

I throw hooks palm in because I'm less likely to clip just my pinky on a grazing shot. Less likely I'll screw up my hand. Power isn't everything. I do throw the long range ones, too. I almost never throw palm down, even though the range demo you showed here makes sense.

I’m coming from the kickboxing side of things, specifically from Joe Lewis’ fighting system, and we were trained palm down because it provided better protection. Palm down brings the shoulder up and naturally covers your chin to where you barely even have to tuck it (though You always should!) if your forearm is properly parallel. The power comes from the step, up through the ground to the hips, and finally right through to the opponents chin. The difference in stances and even glove size in boxing might account for some differences I can’t say.

Palm in typically gives you more power, but I love palm down because of the range and increased knuckle placement, also you can do a nice variant of palm down called a Thai hook which is where you’re throwing at a slightly downward angle, let’s you chop through guards pretty nice.

With wrapped up hand in gloves, it's a distance thing. Close distance = palm inwards, medium range = palm down, long range = palm diagonally outwards. However, with bare knuckles it's probably safest to keep the palm inwards to prevent injuries to the pinky side of the hand.

Roy Jones Junior says palm in- more power, ability to double up the hook, also harder to over-extend.

I love Boxer .VS. Kickboxer technique debates 🥊🥊🥋

Palm in... Speed and movement when finding range, and inside engagement. Palm down... For power off counters, or clean slips when you pivot outside guard. I do however subscribe to sometimes rotating the Palm depending on the specific target.

palm in gives you as faster hook because you can snap with the bicep, but I think structurally palm down is much stronger at the shoulder joint, giving you less give on impact. The position your arm is in when you land your hook is the halfway point of where your arm would be during a bench press whereas palm in is the halfway point for a chest fly. The chest fly engages the bicep more but the press engages the anterior deltoid more. When you hit at a proper angle with a hook (non slappy), your forearm is perpendicular to the point of impact so you're bicep does not really get pulled on, maybe on the way there but at impact, it shouldn't be affected much. Meanwhile, your shoulder joint takes the majority of the impact because the forearm will be perpendicular to the upperarm putting all the strain upon impact on your shoulder. Therefore I think a palm down hook can endure a stronger hook when you're throwing with your body behind it. I hit the heavy bad palm in because palm down hurts my hand for some reason, but on pads and in sparring, always palm down. The difference is very apparent. The palm in gives a loud slap, but palm down gives a low thud which goes right through the target and gets a noticeable reaction from my pad holders.

I do it based on where I'm aiming. If I'm going towards the chin (the corner of the mouth), then palm in. If it's closer towards the back of the jaw, then it's palm down

Palm up is universal. Palm in gives more acceleration and snap. Palm down Locks the shoulder and generates locked power

9:02 he just went to the body 😨

Super cool to see all of the different factors to and explanations behind throwing hooks differently. I always love learning from this channel! 💪

Palm down simulates more of a looping overhand than a hook, and if bare knuckles, runs more of a risk of hurting your hand. As a southpaw, I tend to throw a right hook, and my follow through drives straight left as I twist my hips.

There is two ways of hooking Thai boxing and kenpo/kempo karate for less than 90 degree angle thumb down to change to elbow. The second way boxing thumb up for wider than 90 degrees angle for more reaching hook for a chopping hook with a small circular movement with the hand.

Fact number 1: Biomechanics require rotation of the wrist when extending the elbow. Fact number 2: There are variations with respect to different proportions of people's bodies. That said, I understand that at medium distance a hook to the body should be executed with the palm of the hand facing the body, and a hook to the head should be executed with the thumb up. Already in the long distance, the overhand must be executed with the thumb down. I advocate the thumbs-up position on the head hook as the most appropriate, due to the recruitment of the biceps. It makes the hook stronger and allows for better recovery for another hook in a row. Congratulations on the videos!

It's not either/or, but a bareknuckle pugilism technique I learned to love is inverted fist, thumb down, known as a rounding blow. With this I can sneak in a powerful blow at or behind the ear, and it has a lot of rotational force behind it. I also love it because I have shorter arms, and the inverted fist gives you an extra inch or so of reach. It is slower than a tight hook with thumb up, but that is a different punch.

For me it's the twisting motion of the hand what adds power rather than the final position of the hand itself.

First off I think this is my favorite video I've seen in a very long time. Also it's really interesting that everything with using the right strike with the organ, the palm up and in for the liver. It's all the same pressure point stuff we learned in karate. Pretty sweet

Remember being coached up by ONE kickboxing George Tsutsui and he said “doesn’t really matter which hook, I’ve knocked guys out with both” 🤷‍♂️

I find palm down, thumb down slide more easily behind the guard. But palm in is more powerful.

Palm down weakens the link between your center and your fist. But either will work depending on body positions and momentum. Good overall analysis of an important detail. And a good example of sharing perspectives. Many of the most solid things I have ever learned have come from looking at techniques from both an aikido and a wing chun perspective. with a friend from another system. Plus some classic boxing. thrown in. This type of video is some of your best work IMNERHO.

For me, my first boxing trainer was also an orthopedic assistant. So, he engraved in me thumb up for maximum safety. With thumb up, the bones are parallel and all your knuckles are aligned with the target, thus risk of injury is much lower as the entire arm is more sturdy. Where as, palm down, the bones on the forearm are crossed like a X, thus putting more stress on the bones upon impact. Also, if you miss judge distance while palm down, but just a bit, you’ll hit with your pinky knuckles further risking injury. With thumb up, it’s much less likely to hit anyone with your pinkies.

“One of those there” is an over hand bowler punch. Hooks yours is the classical the flat hand is Russian hook and they teach it for whipping in under elbow and as you demonstrated as range goes out the hand turns over. Theres 3 level range for hooks you can’t rename a tight uppercut as a hook, nor rename the bowler as an overhand hook. Bowlers are great trained the under and over at range both together (if ya get me) there’s no diss here you guys are great

Good episode 💯🥊 Great to see the open mindedness in technique. I personally use the short hook (palm up) for the body, whereas the long hook for mid range to the head...👍🏾

In conventional weight lifting supination or palm up is a stronger grip because your able to engage the bicep, were a pronate grip or palm up has no bicep. When I turn my hand to throw a hook (with my thumbs up) I can flex my bicep and maintain stabilization throughout my wrist (with a significantly reduced risk of injuring my wrist versus palms down).

I'm palm in because palm down hurts my shoulder more plus palm in let's me angle the hook slightly upwards when going for the liver or spleen.

They're both correct. As a coach you have to find what works for each fighter, as every person is unique. Just because YOU throw a harder hook palm in, doesn't mean everyone is going to. Also, it depends on the combination you're throwing. Palm down/in might flow better after a certain punch. As boxing is not just about learning to throw 1 punch, it's learning how to set up punches with other punches, feints etc

Reading Jack Dempseys book Championship Boxing on the subject of hooks and knuckle placement is beneficial to any discussion on the subject

I trained at Kenny Weldons (Holyfileds first trainer). He taught palm down on tight hooks, as the hook becomes longer rotate the thumb up (the clock method like you showed). I asked Vinny Pazienza once what he thought and he said "I dont think the guy who gets knocked out will notice". lol. Its all personal preference.

Lmao so I put this on because this man makes great content but me also being a learning man was doing it by myself and coming to the same conclusions as the but I was off in my own head then look up and seeing us all doing the same distance to power example. Man this channel is so good

I never really paid attention, cause as you're saying it just depends on how I'm using it. But when I visualize it, when I'm on top hooking down, it's palm down. But I get low and come up, I hook with my thumb up. That's pretty cool, thank you Mike.

I enjoy this kind of stuff. This is exactly how I think when I'm throwing. What is the persons body like, what are their individual weaknesses and strength, what is the angle of their jaw etc.

I personally feel like palm in is a heavier hit, but palm down feels like the rotation's far faster.

The way he explains it is what feel the most natural

I like to use palm in when I switch from orthodox to south paw using the D'Amato shift to give them a nasty hooks to the nose or when I'm pivoting back and to the left to check my opponent, but I love using my palm down hooks at medium range right on the chin and behind the ear around a guard or after doing an overhand right as a followup punch and leaning back to get away from retaliation if possible. Basically, palm down is more precise but less accurate and palm in is more accurate but less precise due to surface area.

When I was initially learning the hook, my coach made an argument which I think is valid too for the palm in/thumb up hook: You want to make sure to hit the target with the 2 big knuckles and not the smaller/weaker ones. Using the right technique based on range seems to be the correct answer but I think that at least beginners should be taught the palm in way. Just to avoid injury if not for anything else. After they figure out the range and how to actually hit the target they can experiment and switch it around.

Very informative! I think the hook that actually lands and does damage is the right one! 😅 timing and target assessment can compensate for the “wrong” palm position. Subscribed!

When you throw a hook palm down it falls straight across from its position in your guard, the “hook” becomes a descending, linear movement of the hand, the circularity of the hook is created by the foot work and turning of your body, this creates a powerful blow coming up from the ground this hook is harder to evade and much more powerful. When I throw it palm perpendicular to the floor, I am street fighting, it is not friendly and the target is the base of the skull behind the ear.

Really helpful, clear answer to something I'd been having problems with

As someone who has worked security for nightclubs for over 15 years, I strongly suggest the “thumbs up” hook if you can in a real street altercation. Because if you’re range or timing is off palm down, or they move their head slightly, you are throwing an incredibly hard punch that my connect with your ring and pinky knuckles only if you punch palm down. And that is almost always a recipe for a hand or knuckle fracture. Also, I threw the hardest hook I could against a drunken assailant, and knocked him down and possibly out briefly, but also tore my rotator cuff. I NEVER have rotator cuff issues hitting hard with the “thumbs up” position.

mike i wish you were in michigan I would sign up for your gym in a heartbeat

It definitely is about distance in what you use, but I'm surprised thumb down/palm out wasn't mentioned... it's the longest range, good for mid-range too and you ensure the just the knuckles are landing on the target.

Great stuff exploring. Same thing applies for jab thumbs up or thumb side. You see both ways

For myself the "palms down" with a hook works, just as Mike and dude said, I 'bore' down in it.

In Muay, you use palm down for short hooks because you may follow with an elbow too. And palm in for longer shots, but also palm out for the longer circular overhead punch or Buffalo swing style punch in Thai, called Wieng Kwai. So certainly it depends. All have their beneficts and cons. And of course you have to take into account if you are bare hand or gloved.

Where i love this video is when he says there is no one style fits all. Im a tall guy and I would rather keep the punches short and palm down. Using the palm up will also cause damage to my wrist over time

That's the most important part of the video. One guy says palm down and other guy says palm in, but if you watched their sparring we'd probably see every variation. I noticed this watching Pacquiao. He was teaching a young Inoue about palm-down hooks, but if you watch Pacquiao's fights he throws them every way possible. Hard to see, but in slow motion and the right angle you can see it.

palm down. your radius and ulna bones are parallel and stronger, while your shoulder muscles are engaged, strong. thumb up the bones are diagonal from each other and weaker and more of your elbow muscles are working, and weaker.

For my part, it's entirely dependent on what's most natural. In amateur boxing (UK) the palm-in is discouraged as it may be conceived as a slap by the ref. Oddly, I throw palm-in on lefts, palm-down on rights.

I was taught this in 1982 by a Korean Grand Master in Mudkwon Tae Kwon Do. Its not this wimpy TKD of today. Normal training for a hook. Reason for turning palm down is because you want to punch with the 2 first knuckles on your hand only. Little fingers get broke. Swing your opposite foot of your hook at same time to increase speed and power. Sounds like somebody needs to study the 365 electric points(TARGETS) on the body. Look at an acupuncture chart to figure it out. Not all are targets on the chart, but look where people kick in martial arts. There will be an internal organ that it connects to and a mental emotion. For example in Muay Thai, inside shin kick tightens the muscles of the inner leg, puts pressure on the liver, and gives the emotions of frustration, anger and depression. Now you know how martial arts work. I have learned all these points in medicine and martial arts training. Enjoy!

I had a Mexican trainer who taught me how to turn the thumb all the way down (palm away)... I thought it was silly until he sparred with me, and I felt his knuckles bang Into my bones like they were bare. (Reyes gloves have almost no padding on top). Works especially well to get behind the elbow to the ribs. You have to build up the muscles on the top of your wrist and forearms, tho. I could barely use those muscles for a bit, when I started hitting the bag like that.

Palm down forces the elbow out which makes for a cleaner, more technically correct hook. However, palm in feel better and harder.

I’ve always naturally thrown my left hook palm in, my right hook palm down. The distance theory makes sense.

I use both when doing a double hook go to the body with the thumb up and palm down to the head

I was always taught to throw "palm in" when attacking the head, and "palm down" when attacking the body. The logic to me was that we're trying to bludgeon our opponent up top, but we're trying to sort of dig deep on the body (like the knuckles hitting between the ribs).

I start by throwing hooks with thumbs up and rotate the wrist at the end of the punch, ending with thumb/palm down. This also keeps me from overspending which makes me more vulnerable to a counter. I feel quicker to.

Range is exactly how I explain why I throw the different hooks.

This is like the 10th video I've seen on hooks and it always ends with "there are advantages to both and it depends on your body proportions"

European hooks is palm inward. American hooks are palm down. Personally I have always preferred the European hook for short hooks. It feels more right with my wrist. For longer hooks I do the variant you showed where you almost punches from the top and down with the two knuckles..

I throw my hooks like I'm striking a match , palm in. That last second drag/pull adds a little extra oomph and pain, and loads my hand back up for a follow up shot.

For hooks to the head, palm down gets the elbow up for protection; that's why boxers use it. But without big padded gloves you really need palm in; you saw hooks change to that in MMA because of the small gloves. If there is a power diff, it's secondary to protecting yourself and your hands.

I think there might be a different angle to approach this. What's the safest way to throw a hook? Some of you may have noticed that the "palm down" technique tends to be a safer choice, since it exposes your wrist to lesser injury risk. This happens sometimes during pad training, particularly if the pad holder is inexperienced or has the bad habit of "throwing the pads at you", meeting your punches halfway.

I was taught palm in, as palm down was more likely to break a wrist. Palm in your wrist can move more freely on contact 🤷🏽‍♂️

I like this white dude. It's something about this dude's personality is cool and laid back. First time seeing this in my timeline. Imma subscribe to this channel.

Once I figured this out, that it’s all dependent on range, it clicked for me and made sense. It’s also safer and puts less stress on your wrist/joints when striking.

Key thing is forearm bone and thumb damage. Palm in protects both.

It also depends on what you are using in your hands, with 16oz boxing gloves you can do thumbs up all the time and have a lot of range, but if you were bareknuckle you'd be landing with your fingers first, and that's ok, you're using the glove to your advantage. With mma gloves it makes sense to turn the fist to look for the knuckle first approach to protect your exposed fingers. With no gloves people usually do palm strikes like in old Pancrase matches, and that would be thumb up, or thumb in round up - down hooks.

In our KM school they said that palm down is risky because ring fingers and pinkies can break if you don't hit right...

I do palm down, even at close range, as I'm used to rotating my arm in sync with my hip as I strike.

I go palm out (facing my opponent) with my thumb down. Anything else at full power hurts my wrists. But when I'm just tapping on the gaurd I do go palm in. Almost like a slap

"It Depends" RYAN HOOVER HAS ENTERED THE CHAT

One thing I was hoping you would mention, because I am curious about what you think: When you don't have gloves and use palm down, if you misjudge distance or the other person moves, you risk grazing them with just pinky and hurting it. If you use palm in, you don't stick out the pinky knuckle. It seems like an obvious argument to me, but I've never seen anyone talk about it. Am I missing something?

I asked this to a buddy of mine who strictly boxes and he just turned around and asked me what I thought. I told him I pretty much always elect to go thumbs up unless I'm coming over the top of a guard.

Jared bees knowin some stuff!!!

Palm down is definitely a hallmark of the Cuban style. I use both for sure.

I don't know anything about MMA or martial arts but in boxing in the United States, the hook is traditionally thrown palm facing you. In Europe and Cuba they teach palm down because in the amatuers the palm-in is sometimes not counted as a punch but a slap. In the amatuers, distance is your friend so palm down is better for distance as well. If your goal is to generate power, it is palms-in. When i was coming up, If a trainer in Brooklyn in the 80s and 90s seen you throw a hook with your palm down, you'd get slapped with a towel.

Palm in thumb up feels better when it connects

The only thing I didn't really see expressly discussed was the strength and stiffness added when internally rotating the shoulder.

The hook that lands and hurts your opponent is the proper hook, good lord.

With shorter ranger I always throw palm in and with longer range palm down.

SB is a good dude, ill have to reach out to him again, been about a year.

Depends on the target, distance, and whether you are wearing gloves

Palm in also minimises damage to the wrist on impact .

Palm down is definitely more powerful, however when doing bag work its easier to fuck up your hands and wrists when throwing heavy palm down so weirdly enough I drill more palm sideways.

I have small hands and pretty compact arms, so I almost always through my hooks palm in or palm up if it’s a body shot. Only ever throw it palm down if it’s something like a check hook or a hook around the guard. In the end ion think it matters either way, you can hit both at any range really.

I always thought it was just a range thing, closer shots are palm in, medium range is palm down, and long range hunting for the chin is palm out. Going for knuckle alignment, mostly.

All about palm in personally . Its the wrist lock it feels so much stronger. Even throwing right out in a full stiff arm max reach hook I still palm in with the wrist locked in a 90degree angle to the forearm . Any range full force bare Knuckle no problem. Palm down tweak my wrist every time even wrapped. Just doesn't feel like a natural body mechanic to me .

Palm do own I felt I could hit much harder but when I got it a touch wrong and landed with my thumb😩.On balance palm in or for long hooks palm turning over to palm out like you’ll see ggg do to land the big knuckle