It very much is, and I have no objection to it at all. I saw a guy playing an epeeist on FB, and for lulz he did double-circular-sixth-and-fleche. Is that in the manuals? No. Is it an absolutely viable move, say, from bicorno? Why yes, yes it is.

@@russmitchellmovement I agree as masters back in the days would constantly try to learn new techniques & better ways to fight. Fiore certainly traveled & learned where he went. Matt Eason also mentioned in one of his saber vids that a certain master from 1800s(?) Wrote a few books of saber fighting & the later books he wrote are quite different in teachings from earlier books as the master learned & changed his opinion of what worked best. My only caveat would be to say that if you were going to mix styles in lineages to be honest about it and be able to say where you picked what technique from because I do think there is value in knowing what a particular style from particular region look like and how it differs from other styles of the same period of different regions. But being accurate to history isn't always the easiest 8n modern practice; especially since we will never have all the knowledge from a single master or lineage

@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 Yup. At some point, I have the burden of choosing to keep the three living lineages I learned completely separate, at the risk of losing one of them, or to come up with a blend that preserves them. Which best serves my students? Besides, obviously, transparency. And my Feldenkrais Method/Body Mechanics work also clearly flavors my approach to the source material. Interpretations are going to vary wildly, and transparency is how we gotta work.

And he was more of a collector of Techniques anyways.

It's no accident the new guys call us dinosaurs!

There is a third group which often get missed: the casual hobbyists who are not too interested in competition and not too interested in reading and interpreting the sources. They are just happy to swing swords and socialise with people who have a similar interest.

I see the problem here with admitting to being one of those groups that you will likely shy off potential students. The HEMA-Scene is still very small and some clubs fight for every member. I live in a part of Germany which is very loosely populated, so getting members for my club is hard. So I try to fit my teaching as broad as I needed. I admit I try to fit in the sport approach as well as the historical approach because I think both parts are important and I try to engage with pupils that want to fence in a tournament and try to teach as well as I can. In the end sword fighting might have been also sport back than. So why shy away from sport and there lies the point: why shy away from modern movement? We evolved our understanding of the human movement system since the times the manuals were written. HEMA should be both, a sport and a field of study. I think a lot of techniques are still to be recovered, because they aren't fully functioning in a tournament situation. I think we are far from the end of HEMA but we think we have tried out everything and succeeded with it, which in my humble opinion is wrong. As long as not every technique is applicable in a fight situation we haven't successfully recovered the techniques in the fullest meaning.

That really is a pretty interesting parallel. Now it’s a mess between IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun and “tactical timmies”. Soldier of fortune became a game over time.

I think it also comes down to stopping power. A lot of hits you see in competitions would make nasty cuts, but nothing that will stop the other guy from retaliating in kind. Those experienced in warfare understood the value of making someone incapable of fighting by striking hard. Swords deal vicious damage but they aren't magic and someone in fear of their life can fight hard despite being injured. I've cleared a lot of land using a machete and it gives a good sense of what blades can and cannot do.

I think that there is as you say a great value in developing a modern sword martial sport, like Kendo for the Japanese. But the problem is when people assume that when they've produced the "best fighters" in modern tournaments, they've gotten closer to the actual swordfighting. The reality is rather the opposite, as competing for points in a modern gym in modern shoes and clothing is nothing like fighting for your life on the slope of a very dry grass field in the very slippery medieval shoes. HEMA tournaments look more like olympic fencing with a longsword, because this is what works best today. But then, we shouldn't call them "HEMA" tournaments but something like "Longsword/Messer/whatever sport tournament".

I am a passionate defender of the Oxford comma. She wears that to troll me. :)

@@russmitchellmovement so it's a swordsman Renaissance

So many ppl look at the sources as the be all and end all. never stopping to think that the masters might have intentionally left something out, or just couldn't fit it all in. Like trying to learn Wing Chun from those books by O'Hara publications in the 70s. I await your efforts on your HEMA book.

Isnt that exactly what he said tho?

​@@manuelm.99 This is why it's important to watch the video and not just read the thumbnail before commenting. 🤣

@@jbertucci I am working on such a manual.

@@jbertucci the creator of this channel, russ mitchell got a book about basic body mechanics for martial artists. Might wanna check that out on amazon. After that it depends on which style you wanna learn. For hungarian sabre, this channel and the book "hungarian hussar sabre" covers the basics of that.

I dont do Hema but I did traditional archery for quite some years. And we had a saying: "The guy who hits the target is right." Back in the day they sure as hell wouldnt risk to lose a duel only to do their footwork correct according to their manuals.

@@corneliussulla9963 I see your point, but with it you're basically supporting the reason why modern olympic footwork shouldn't be used in the context of medieval longsword: it will kill you, as doing huge steps and frequently retreating backwards is a huge danger when you're not on a nice, flat gym floor like we have today. I'm not good at archery, but let me try to give you an example in your domain of expertise: If only hitting the target was important, surely you should only do archery with modern sportsbows with aiming help, isn't it? And when someone tells you that's not traditional, you'll answer: I don't care, the archers of old would have used it if they could. Except: I've heard from an archer I know that practicing with visor instead of instinct will not at all prepare you to shoot at a movng target. So, practicing in a modern way (olympic fencing footwork, aiming help on bows) is not only not traditionnal, it also will not make you learn the same things than our ancestors had.

I'll consider it, but I'll be honest. My opinion is worth a lot less than that of the ladies and gentlemen who pressure-test hema rulesets to see how and in what ways they can be gamed.

Yup, helped me recover from a life-threatening case of toxic hepatitis. I should have croaked a LONG time ago. Haven't trained it in a long time seriously, though.

Thank you, Sun. I originally had intended to avoid "talking head" videos, and have been surprised that people find them helpful. If you have anything in specific you'd like to see in the channel, please let us know.

@@russmitchellmovement white belt or unbelt stories are always entertaining. Though im starting a mixed style program soon so the living legacy remark really struck me.

@@EclipseStyle We put in sparring videos of people who are *Absolute newbies* for just that reason. People need to see that they're not alone struggling with "and I coordinate all this stuff HOW?"

I think there are good arguments that can be made on both sides. Obviously we lack a direct connection to the practice. But we have reasonably good comparative practice to source materials they left behind, as opposed to early days when it was clearly "martial arts necromancy." Fun discussions.

Very likely to cooperate on producing one later this year with another gent whose experience is considerable.

There are thousands of very good fighters out there, and not all of them train the same way or come from similar backgrounds, yup.

Thank you for kicking that in! It really is *not* for everybody. And some practices get modded over time because of practical matters, too, not high art. Like the karate school I knew of which added a turn into their form. Everybody discussed its merits, the why, the how, the applications, until a guy visited his school and discovered "oh, it's a small room, they have to turn in order to keep moving or else they run into a wall."

@@russmitchellmovement I have a friend who's equally as interested in history and combat. I definitely think it takes all types.

Oh that has already happened, just look at the absolute disdain with which the schnitt is held within the longsword community. Nobody in the tournament longsword community trains them and I have met a shocking number of longsword fencers who literally don't even know what the word means.

@@russmitchellmovement Yeah, a club I recently joined did not count one during our "king of the hill" style freeplay, much to my surprise.

I don't think that's strictly necessary: our club benefits from having a long-distance student who thinks the manuals are interesting, even if I"m the only guy who ever really looks in them locally (granted, as a living-lineage guy, that may flavor how my club works). The guys we share space with are *very much* a tourney-longsword crew, making use of lots of modern stuff (ladder drills, modern footwork, etc etc), but it's very common to find one of their fighters with a nose stuck in Von Danzig, for instance. It's a really, really big tent, and I don't think we need to silo ourselves just because there are differences in how we have sword-fun.

I'm definitely more interested in looking into manuals than most people in my club, but I still partake in tournaments since they are a great way to truly test interpretations against fully resisting opponents. So I don't think having such a hard divide is a good idea.

Who would stop you?

I know, dude, I know. For over a decade I was the only guy in the western hemisphere with a copy of Leckuchner. And even THEN I couldn't interest people in trying it. It'll eventually get popular, I'm sure. How, I don't know -- if you do, hmu and I'll do anything I can to support.

I haven't read Von Danzig, so don't know that specific difference, but I remember when Meyer hit and everybody's krump suddenly changed dramatically. Yeah, interpretation never ends.

Armor Archive is Dead. Armour Archive killed it. (Actually, it was GlenK. That dick. ;) ) JeffJ

As a fellow "never stopped being an obscurity guy," I totally get you.

Which style is that if I may ask?

You could falsify my hypothesis by founding your own club while working directly from a manual rather than seeking out and established instructor. :)

hema itself is not a sport, is a martial art, if you talk about tournament ok, you can practice hema "as a sport" but itself is not a sport

@@vonakakkola Every single martial art is a sport. Even the most traditional of martial arts have sport/competition. Not having that competition and drive directly harms a martial art's credibility and usefulness.

@@hysterical5408 "every martial arts has competitions" doesn't mean the martial art itself is a sport when someone practice hema, their goal Is not being the best at competition without caring about how effective would be irl (in the past if we talk about historical arts), while in olimpic fencing the only thing that matters is competitions

I am not familiar with the gentleman. Is there a link or a book reference?

@@russmitchellmovement Hello! Sorry for the slow reply! KZfaq didn't inform me about your reply! I tried to post the link here, but KZfaq didn't allows it. The title of the publication is "Limits of Understanding in the Study of Lost Martial Arts" by Dr. Eric Burkhart!

I'm not sure what to think about it. On one hand, I like that the efforts of H-EMA were somewhat successful - it brought attention to HEMA, put people at some starting point. And now we heave "real", new lineages - if the masters of old were still alive they'd probably still try to polish and improve their styles. Exacly what modern "EMA" is doing. On the other hand as the time progresses I feel that fencing will keep evolving towards winning tournaments and not trying to kill/stay alive. Until we arrive at modern Olympic fencing - with thinnest, lightest and longest sabres one can get because the objective (one could say "the point" :) ) of fencing will be not to kill and stay alive but to touch the opponent. Moving it away from the true spirit HEMA and possibly opening it to being lost again.

@@adseri That's why we have an obligation to our own living lineages to preserve some principles and traditions. I'm certain, a lot of groups will be willing to preserve the idea of clean debilitating cuts and self preservation in their own bouts. The more tournament oriented groups probably won't care about that as much, but they will ultimately be constrained by the tournament rules.

And at a certain point it stops being reconstructive and simply how many cool songs can you sing in English...

Work your club culture so it suits YOUR needs!

Which? Mine's a pretty bog-standard dashiki/west-African shirt. I've worn them for ages bc I had a Ghanaian pen-pal in high school, and they're super-practical in Texas' climate. If you mean Kat's, I'll have to ask.

I just taught 2 classes on Jude Lew. I just love the early manuscripts and what they can teach us. Yes, I know, I'm an uber HEMA nerd.

Do the moves in comp

@@bigtreecombatacademy2927 It's really useful to have somebody with a sports focus to help you pressure-test and spot things in your underlying approach that may be hindering application, yup. So long as each side knows how to actually be useful to the other.

technically its still HEMA, but as he said, its living lineages. if they are only fighting to win a competition then everything will change, the fighting style will change to become more adept to score points, the weapons will change to be more adept at scoring points, even the protective gear will change to become more adept at scoring points, just like it happened with Olympic fencing. as it is right now people are still using historical martial arts, but they are evolving to be more functional instead of trying to copy a old book that is extremely unclear.

What I am saying by "hema is dead" is that most places are now becoming living lineages of study as some people become teachers and certify other teachers -- NOT that you cannot yourself also learn and study.

Fencing itself is an archaicism -- that's part of its attraction, so yep.

To each their own hobby! My local tournament punished doubles harshly, but I'm comfortable saying "I teach fencing as a fun means to improve oneself" rather than with any notion of 21st century martial application.

@@russmitchellmovement Yeah fair enough, and I am certainly not saying it isn't good, or a ligitimate way to spend your time. Especially as most people are both more skilled and fitter than me and would beat me whether as a sport with rules or in a genuine duel which lets face it, in modern times would be psychotic. But I think it's a good idea to learn from and know what is from the orignal sources and what isn't, if one's interest is in HEMA the martial art as well as HEMA the sport, so it doesnt become lost and we have to start all over again.

I did not say they shouldn't!

HEMA as the dinosaurs practiced it is basically dead, because the next generation up insists on fencing *success* as a litmus test of interpretive quality, rather than "this is what the text says. I am unable to apply it yet, and am working to understand why." Both are completely legitimate points of view resulting in very different styles of practice.

@@russmitchellmovement what about those who fence those moves in comp ?

@@bigtreecombatacademy2927 They're often the same people, the question is the approach. Is the subject of the endeavor sporting behavior, or the historical source? For the dinosaurs, competition and bouting is a resource to try to help understand the manual. For the sportsman or sportswoman, the manual is a potential resource to aid competition. For example, I teach Radaellian lightsaber, and recently found myself trawling through de Frias' footwork and cross-comparing it to Charlemont's work for options that would help us deal with extremely agile competition that is primarily "naturalists" and relying on strike-and-void tactics. Since that game disallows thrusting and has no hand-guards, the Radaellian material is simply a resource: playing "glowy stick tag in the dark" is the focus.

I was there. They were absolutely willing to lose in order to pressure test their understanding of what the book was saying, and they were very serious about that. The general consensus was that if something wasn't working it wasn't because the book was wrong, but because something was lacking in the understanding.

And more power to you. That's how sabre was for a very, very long time.

@@russmitchellmovement For me that's how all medieval weapons were here until I started teaching. There was only pseudo renaissance fencing, and occasionally highland broadsword. It takes someone to get people into it right?

Microfiche is old, yeah.

It's a bit of a commute from Texas, but I will TOTALLY signal boost wherever possible. (You guys are about 9000 times better-known than me, so on the one hand it's ridiculous, but on the other, I had no idea you guys were doing lots of dussack, so.... I get to rec you on that basis now, too, woot!).

I don't get the connection, but sounds like you're doing a lot of experimental archaeology that I kinda recognize from over the years...

@@russmitchellmovement you research martial arts I researched the armor. FEMA has given cloth and leather armor a bad name it actually worked quite a bit better than Hema declares you're just building it wrong. I find by making a wooden mold and then tanning a pig Shield and then cutting it to shape well it is still wet and then heating up sand before throwing it into a sack made of denim and then laying that sack on the piece of wet tanned leather before adding additional weight for the pressing while using beeswax rather than lanolin to waterproof the leather before pressing it. The hot sand will drive the water from the freshly tanned leather and the heavyweight over the top of the sandbag will press the leather and you end up with a much better leather armor that will deflect most blades including Spears of course the English Longbow can pierce the leather but rarely travels more than an inch or two in this can be resolved with the beeswax. But you can't use cowhide you have to use the back of a pig what they call the shield it is a much more dense heavier leather and when pressed to 110 while it is being dried it makes a remarkably strong and durable Shield such as one would wear as a breastplate so much so a 50 lb bow can barely even scratch it even with needle Bodkins. A sword is basically just going to be deflected and a spear will either chip or scratch at best I use piping hot sandbags and barrels for my form the barrel is filled with play that is dry and I have a 3/4 ton play brick that I said over the top for weight I use the sand to steam the leather dry. I've used many different processes including crude oil beeswax and ceiling wax the crude oil works just fine but I prefer using the beeswax although it does make a slightly more flexible leather crude oil makes a very strong weather and I believe that's what they mean by black and the leather use crude oil on it when you boil it and stand straight out of the skillet

@@russmitchellmovement as far as the cloth armor is concerned I like to use between 150 and 180 count six layers of oiled cloth with Ash rubbed in and four layers of dry cloth per book and I separate the oil floss from the dry cloth with a very thin summer weight wool only fresh combed so it's more of a padding much like one would used to make yarn with or to make a quilt with. The oil floss with the sit rubbed in is amazingly good against crudely sharpened blades and the wool padding helps to disperse the pressure I will use one layer of oil yeah one book with oil one book all dry for a lightweight gambison for a pure cloth armor wrap I'll use four books one oil and three dry wool padding between each book sometimes with bamboo and sometimes with baleen boning. And cloth armor works well against broadheads as well as works well against being sliced with a short sword. Yes it will stop and axe blade but the axe will crush you anyways. Bodkins have a tendency to blow right through cloth armor.

@@russmitchellmovement by the way the reason I got into building the leather and cloth armor is because I got a chance to see the bulletproof vest worn by the gentleman that turned in Bonnie and Clyde. It was carrying 86 Thompson submachine gun bullets. What finally did him in as they shot him with over 100 rounds

@@barretharms655 I actually *did* research leather and fabric armors, way back in the day when Nicolle was pulling those jawshan photos in Syria -- at some point I would love to go over this stuff in detail with you.

If something isn't explain then isn't whatever you come up with essentially the same as frog DNA?

@@Sk0lzky it depends on a number of factors such as geographical proximity, descriptions of first hand accounts etc. These can build up a picture over time on what the martial art looked like. If there's no evidence to support the claim then yes because there's no informed explanation it's guesswork, but things like Polish sabre are able to be reconstructed with sources that aren't treatises because they are historical sources. Reconstruction exists on a spectrum depending on how much evidence there is to support it.

And that's the rub. If it's early days and you're working with a manuscript WITHOUT benefit of all that comparable material, and you come from prior training, that prior training will color your vision. I was an early adherent to "did you notice Fiore raises his heel?" ...at the time that was controversial, and while it's borne out and for good reasons, I didn't spot it because I'm awesome or expert, but because I spent ten years doing savate, and savate uses a stance where you use the heel similarly... but on the other hand, Fiore doesn't seem to counter-rotate the hips and shoulders much, whereas that's a savate staple. What if I'd just assume "okay, Fiore uses savate-ish mechanics, let's run with it," and imported that? It would very much have warped the interpretation. Without sister translations and all the context created over the past 20 years, we had to SKULL SWEAT that shit to keep it from sending us off into crap translation.

I give her SO MUCH SHIT for that shirt. :)

Pick your weapon, let's goooooooo

@@KatLaurangeArt next time you’re in Texas we’ll do a black powder pistol and Sabre match, like the genteel folk used to do ;)

@@russmitchellmovement keep it up, for me

@@connordillon6493 Texas is a mighty big state, pardner 😄

LOL. That's like the Hollywood B-lister telling the Access T.V. presenter "hey, we're famous and on t.v.!" You're better-known than I'll *ever* be. The only reason I'm out of obscurity today (for about the next two days until you or Matt post again) is people are properly horrified at Kat's grammatical heresy. :)

@@russmitchellmovement hey Russ! I really am out of it. Injury has taken me away. I just watch throwing popcorn from the sidelines. Never forgot your little sabre class in the field though. Thanks!

@@roblovett Matt's super-effective 1796 scabbard is never getting old. ;) Sorry to hear you're hurt! That bites.

lol

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

THAT'S THE SPIRIT!!!

Yes, because they are playing a game. A well trained fencer could easily treat it as if it were life and death and perform admirably.

Tell me you didn't actually watch the video, without telling me you didn't actually watch the video.

I'm waiting for somebody to just create a longsword league, since most of the time when people say "HEMA," what they *mean* is "tourney longsword." But "wrongfun" is an ugly concept, too. People should enjoy themselves chasing their hobbies the way that makes them happy, or else why bother doing it?

@@russmitchellmovement Yeah cos hema sport fencing is literally the same as feather sword stage combat in the proto-pop culture of the renaissance who made pleasure out of imitating the medieval warriors in the past. The main people who follow such traditions are boyscouts and non-knights non-warrior class people. The actual warrior class is filled with veterans, and those veterans trained in survival and drills, like fiore. Fiore's better than the other longsword masters, because he has actual combat experience both dueling and battlefield, armoured, horseback. What a knight or warrior is

Its like thinking a paintballer would be able to win war when he goes to syria or yemen or something. THat's just not how it works, you're not going to win, let alone have the balls to approach any gunfight just because you can shoot a sport gun good. So what makes a sports swordsman think he is going to go to war or fight a real fight where no one is following rules. Is that guy going to help the military somehow with his secret spinning moves, Liecthenauer meisterhau? No, instead he only fights his own tribe of people with similar mentality. And that's why those techniques work in his place, but if they try it outside. It will always end up being the same. That's why modern sport fencing ended up this way, because it was already sport fencing before regardless of style. And that's why we should make it an olympic sport. The formalisation of those techniques would be like the japanese counterparts, the tradition is barely kept alive by the strand as dance and theatre.

But yes! But no. But yes!

So personal example: I'm a pale shadow of my former self, who used to do hundreds of pushups every morning and train 4-6 hours a day, minimum. Spent years doing 20 rounds a night, four nights a week. My health won't let me do that any more. I move really well....for a guy who used to need an extra half-hour to get in and out of the car, but it's obvious that I lack the conditioning to be a real threat once the newbies are eliminated in pools. Guys like me, who have health or age issues having trouble remaining competitive (because **conditioning COUNTS**) are going to do what every other athlete does when they're trying to extend their career -- look for an edge to help support them. I predict that a number of those folks will go back to the manuals hunting for ideas and inspirations, and so you'll have some people who are focused on "understand the manuscripts," and you'll have others who spent very little time with the sources while younger, who trawl through them for ideas an inspiration when they're older.

I am assuming you have only seen the living lineage. It indeed has a very unusual stance and use of footwork.

Many modern young people would happily study and get better education, but who's going to pay for it? You?